The Problem is back, but different...

[KeithW '91 535i]

Now, at least the interior lights come on every time I open the doors. That's the improvement. I wrongly assumed that every time I opened the doors to check and see if the "fix" was still holding and the lights came on that I was still good to go. Initially after the attempted fix, everything DID work. This morning, the interior lights work always, but the radio code needed to be re-entered (I did it after working on the system yesterday...this is something new). My locks, windows, roof and wipers are all as they were before. You know, I really could not clean the posts and sockets for the Relay Module and General Module. Maybe still corroded a bit? Where can I get a wire brush that small to get in those small holes? Any other suggestions based on progress to date?

Keith in AZ.

[ryan roopnarine]

Now, at least the interior lights come on every time I open the doors. That's the improvement. I wrongly assumed that every time I opened the doors to check and see if the "fix" was still holding and the lights came on that I was still good to go. Initially after the attempted fix, everything DID work. This morning, the interior lights work always, but the radio code needed to be re-entered (I did it after working on the system yesterday...this is something new). My locks, windows, roof and wipers are all as they were before. You know, I really could not clean the posts and sockets for the Relay Module and General Module. Maybe still corroded a bit? Where can I get a wire brush that small to get in those small holes? Any other suggestions based on progress to date?

Keith in AZ.

i take it from reading your post that you only applied stabilant 22. im not familiar with the stuff enough to answer my question......does it specifically say that it cleans? if it doesn't, id go get some contact cleaner and use it for cleaning, then apply the stabilant. you can get it at lowes hardware (if you have them in your part of the country) or from certain napa's. i'd call to find out. radio shack for certain has the stuff, it's just that i consider that small of a container a rip off (its about 7 dollars for 1/4 can of the crc contact cleaner). harbor freight should have a metal brush for cleaning small orifaces. don't worry about the contact cleaner not being abrasive enough, the only thing i consider a more effective hands off cleaner than the crc contact cleaner is brake parts cleaner, which obviously isn't safe to use on electronics.

[Javier]

so GM is properly grounded (X5 connection to the car body, under rear seat). Also OK is ground connection to interior lights trough Relay module, (it is X495 connection to the car body). That's two; you have at least, 5 ground connections under the rear seat.

Now Windows and Central locking depends on Power protection relay, and wipers depend on Wiper relay.

Lets focus on wipers first, as soon as you turn ignition key, fuse F1 power reaches Wiper relay K11 coil, K11 is under rear seat, just besides fuse F40. just turn key, go back and pull out / push in relay, you should feel it clicking. If not, either X493 ground connection to car body is still rusted, or relay/Fuse F1 is damaged.

If K11 is OK, turn on wipers to Fast position; this does not depend on GM, but RM and K11.

If wipers do not work, pull K11 and make a jumper at the socket connections corresponding to K11 pins 30 and 87. This will by-pass K11, if wipers work, K11 should have a bad power contact. I would open it and clean its contacts.

If still does not work, let me know, will prepare some hints to debug RM and wiper lever.

What about windows and locks? (Roof is just a 5th window). They are feed trough power protection relay K15, just besides former discussed K11. Check for the clicking when pulling out / pushing in (ignition key at proper position). Clicking will confirm GM is working OK in the relay. I would go straight to make a jumper at relay socket connections corresponding to pins 30 and 87 of the relay. Test the system with the jumper in; do not stress the windows at the end of their travel. If working, fine, again, power protection relay contact may be the culprit.

If not working with the jumper in, check you feel clicking in the RM at windows or lock operation request (I mean pushing knobs or window switches). Again let me know results to further elaborate.

If these two relays (K11 and K15) are the ones you described as funny looking, then overheating may have corroded the relay socket terminals so special attention should be taken to the relays socket contacts and relays pins. Also overheating may be caused by poor contact quality inside relay, opening and cleaning/treating may be appropriate.

I know it is frustrating, but guess you are in the right track.

Javier

Edit: Radio issue does not make any sense to me.

[Javier]

think you have to carefully check relay K15, as a damaged contact in this relay may be the culprit of the weird illuminated window switches.

You already did an improvement to GM, are wipers complains the same than before, you reported OK in high speed, if ok, K11 is fine.

Javier

[KeithW '91 535i]

what you are referring to by 'X5 connection', 'X495 connection', Fuse F1, K11 Coil, etc.
Are these documented in my Bently manual wiring diagrams?

If I can understand your specific references, I will be able to kep up with you. Electrical details are not familiar to me. I am very well versed in items of mechanical nature. Please stay patient with me, I hope I am still a fast student! Many thanks for your efforts to help me with this stubborn problem.

Keith in AZ.

[Paul in NZ]

bear with him keith,i think javier is way ahead of most of us,i think we are all learning from him.

[KeithW '91 535i]

The interior lights sometimes come on and at that time, the locks, windows, roof are dead. Wipers working on high position only. Today, I heard the Relay Module clicking (had not heard that before) while nothing was working.
Also heard some clicking coming from the front of the car, too, but do not recall the status of the power windows, locks and roof. I have not had the windows, locks and roof plus wipers working correctly since yesterday when I had applied Stabilant to all connections. Today, I took the fuseable link totally apart, replaced the 80 amp fuse, removed the red power supply cable that is part of the fuseable link from the battery post assembly, cleaned everything and re-assembled. This car has no visible electrical connection corrosion anywhere under the seat, but very little oxidation evidence is all I can get when cleaning. Bought Radio Shack contact cleaner today and started cleaning the posts and sockets for the Relay Module. More cleaning to come....

Keith in AZ

[ryan roopnarine]

are you certain that in the period between everything working/intermittent, that a fuse didn't just blow from something wanting more than it can handle? (since everything was "working"). im not trying to sound condescending, just asking

[Javier]

All connections (and connectors) have an X and number name. X5, X492, X493, X495 and X496 are all grounds to body connections under the rear seat. If you have access to wiring diagrams on your Bentley, the names should appear just besides connecting point in the drawing.

X5 is car body connection for the brown/orange wire coming from pin 2 on connector X332 of GM (also to pin 13 of X255 at GM). It provides ground connection to all internal components of GM. X5 is located below right hand side of rear seat. If X5 does not provide good ground to GM, all attempts to drive the relays in relay module will be unsuccessful. You may test X5 condition pulling out GM, identify X332 pin 2, and check resistance to ground, or even better, prepare an under load tester with a double filament bulb (lamp) soldering two wires, one to the metal base and one to both pins in the bottom, and connect one wire to the battery +, and the other to said pin 2. Lamp will light up dimmed (or not at all) if ground is inappropriate.

X495 is car body connection for the brown wire coming from pin 10 on connector X259 of RM (also to pin 12 of X259 and pin 20 of X258 at RM). It provides ground connection to some components of RM. If GM activates a relay in RM, and relay function is to provide ground to operate a circuit, this connection will provide it. Pin X259-10 is for interior lights and wipers, pin X259-12 is for central locking, and pin X258-20 and X259-10 handle windows. Interior lights working fine should mean X5 and X495 OK. X495 is also located below right hand side of rear seat. If X495 is not OK, even if GM drives the relays and they click, the relay contact will not pass the ground to the required circuits. You may test X495 condition pulling out RM, identify X259 pin 10 and 12, and X258 pin 20, and check resistance to ground as suggested before.

There are also car body connections X496 below right hand side of rear seat, and X492 and X493 below center of rear seat. May be you didn't clean all the proper ones. X493 has to do with wipers relay K11, guess it's OK, as you have high speed, and X492 shouldn't have to do with your problem, nor X496.

F1 is fuse number one (fuses F1 to F29 are in the engine compartment fuse box, and F30 and up are under the rear seat, in the same box that your GM, RM and some relays.

K and a number is the generic ID for relays, relays are basically a magnetic coil (two pins of the relay for that, 85 and 86 in K11), and a power contact magnetic operated (contact is between 30 and 87 in K11). When you connect 12 Vdc to the coil, you operate the contact (It closes in K11 case). K11 is the Wipers relay, it is there to power the wipers only if ignition key is turned on, so, as soon as you turn ignition key, fuse F1 is energized, then relay coil gets + 12Vdc at pin 86, pin 85 is permanently connected to ground trough X493. So, as soon as relay coil is energized, it closes the power contact between pin 30 and 87 sending power to wipers circuit. If you remove K11, no mater the status of GM, RM or wipers lever, wipers won't work, this is the reason it is important to be sure K11 is OK. You confirmed you have High speed so it is OK. K11 is besides F40 fuse, lined with GM.

K15 is also a very important relay, if K15 contact is not OK, windows and central locking will not work OK. The relay is the same type K11. K15 pin 86 is permanently connected to 12 Vdc trough F47 fuse, but pin 85 is grounded by GM at the proper time, trough X5 (remember pin 2 of X332). Once energized, it passes power from F47 to the windows and central locking circuit. K15 is there to cut power to locking and windows circuits, if an overload condition occurs, so inside GM there is a resistor connected between pins X332-4 and X332-5, monitoring K15 contact current, if an overload condition occurs, the K15 relay is de-energized, leaving windows and central locking inoperable.

Guess it fairly explains the operation of these devices.

Javier

[Javier]

Per your post, it seems interior lights are not working solid, isn't it?

The interior lights sometimes come on

Interior lights circuit is an easy one to debug, so lets understand what is going on, focusing on them.

Get access to the RM and GM, and operate the interior lights opening/closing one door. Stick your finger to RM and feel it clicking. Does it click? Every time you open or close the door? Can you positively relate the click to the door operation? if answer is yes to all questions, your problem is either ground to RM, or RM connectors contacts dirty or corroded, I took your info on a RM change, so guess relay contacts inside RM are OK.

If no clicking, make an exhaustive check on fuse F30, it feeds all relays in RM, and some central locking components on drivers door. Do not feel satisfied with a quick look at the fuse element, remove the fuse, check spade connections status, check fuse socket looking for signs of overheating or corrosion, check with a volt-meter that the fuse is passing solid power to the pin 15 of X259 connector to the Relay Module. You can stick your under load bulb tester as described in previous post, between pin 15 of X259 and ground. Bright and steady light should be there.

I included links to pictures of X259 (X258 is like X259 but white) and X332 connectors under the RM and GM, so you can identify pins. Also is included a link to the picture of the rear seat fuse box. The box is not exactly your car but will do. From there you can identify fuse numbers and RM and GM connectors location.

http://www.bimmer.info/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=692&stc=1

http://www.bimmer.info/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=860&stc=1

http://www.bimmernut.com/~billr/images/rear%20fuses.jpg


Just let me know your findings, to go on.

Javier

Edit: Feel it is very important to debug F30 fuse, as it has to do with every thing but high speed wipers.

[KeithW '91 535i]

are you certain that in the period between everything working/intermittent, that a fuse didn't just blow from something wanting more than it can handle? (since everything was "working"). im not trying to sound condescending, just asking

time that everything was working perfectly...All at the same time! So, I guess the fuses are OK. Took stuff apart again, more cleaning, reassembled, nothing works. Bought pipe cleaners with metal bristles mixed in to get in the sockets of the RM plug. My sockets for the RM are as clean as humanly possible now. Now, to read Javier's posts from today! Thanks, Pal.

Keith in AZ.

[ryan roopnarine]

know what i suspect it is? back when my car was showing early symptoms (the wipers would die), i could get them to restore operation within about 10 minutes or a restart by pounding all of the underseat relays and gm and rm. i think that you have a flaky relay that you got to restart by handling it somewhat roughly and plugging it back in.