M50 will not start

[bjl4776]

Yay, it started, just added a couple teaspoons of gear oil and it cranked right up, now im hunting idle. The car won't idle at all, if i let it go below 1500rpm the car dies. Is this just still not a proper compression seal and i just need to keep it running to warm it up, or is this something else i need to look for, its not like a vacuum leak, it doesnt try to rebound or idle at all it just dies, im guessing not enough compression at low rpms yet. Maybe some mystery oil at this point would be helpful, maybe in the oil and gas, and suggestions about this or possibel other probelms to get it running smooth. Also it is billowing wight smoke out of the back, im guessing moisture burning off. Well im glad, at least it starts.

EDIT: And im getting no engine codes at all, just good 'ol 1444

[Javier]

So there should be some presumptions in your observations. Check them all over.

Javier

[Derek A.]

What do the plugs look like after you crank the engine? What kind of compression numbers were you getting ?

Did you try squirting some oil into the cylinders before cranking ?

[bjl4776]

The plugs look like they are wet with gas, with some blackness that is carbon that is washing off of the walls since the gas is just soaking and not igniting. Like I said havent got the compression test, havent been able to get the guage yet, but that is on my list, but i doubt that the headgasket is bad ebough to cause the engine not to start.

[Derek A.]

Pull out your plugs.. Let the Car sit overnight with the spark plugs out... Put two table spoons of motor oil in each cylinder... Put in a fresh set of spark plugs...Crank the engine until it starts.

See this a lot in M50 motors. You wash all the oil of the rings - your motor has no compression right now.

[bjl4776]

Thanks, im going to have to give that a whirl, it makes perfect sense with the car sitting for so long.

[Bellicose Right Winger]

I think I'd try a $3 can of starting fluid.

Paul Shovestul


Thanks, im going to have to give that a whirl, it makes perfect sense with the car sitting for so long.

[Bill R.]

sensor, its a no no on them... can kill the sensor or in the case of the hotwire it can ignite at the wire, if your going to use starting fluid you'll have to come up with a way to put it way downstream of the mass air flow sensor.






I think I'd try a $3 can of starting fluid.

Paul Shovestul

[Bill R.]

injectors can squirt but if the pressures too low it won't start but it will act like its just about to start.









I know iv posted on this before but im going f@#$ing crazy trying to figure out wtf is up before i break down and have my car towed to shop. Ok so here I go. The car has been sitting for at least 3.5 years. So upto this point i have drained the fuel tank, added new gas, changed fuel filter, oil and filter, spark plugs, and radiator. When i turn the engine over I get spark on all six cylinders as well as fuel on all six cylinders (the injectors are squirting). The cars turns over healthy and doesnt make any noises that is shouldnt be except for not starting. When i turn it over it feels like it is about to catch, but it won't. I am also only getting the 1444 code, so no problems there. I also changed over the coils from another working engine to see if that is the probelm and it wasn't. The only other test i havent performormed is a compreesion test, but i am getting compression, and i know these motors will at least run with bad compression, just not well. Spring is here and i need to get in a bimmer asap, driving a caravan around in this weather is killing me

[Javier]

an injector squirts? A boroscope? Any trick I don't know about?

Would like to, as some time ago, read in the forum to try to "sense" the clicking at the injectors to be sure they are working (to discard camshaft issues), which in conjunction with proper fuel pressure would also discard fuel issues, but now this simply confuses me.

Javier

[bjl4776]

Well to see if the injectors are getting pulse from the dme all you have to do is put the cover of the wires next to the fuel rail, then get a test light between the two wires of the fuel injectors and have some turn the engine over and see if the light goes on and off, then your injector part of your dme is working, best way to check to see if it is actually squirting is to pull the fuel rail out and let someone turn it over and you can physically see gas coming out of them.

[bjl4776]

Alright, fuel pressure is were is should be at 3.5bar. I think it is a probelm with the compression of some sort. I put two spoonfulls of 20w50 into each of the cylinders and put new plugs in. The car started for like 5 seconds poured white smoke out of the exhause like a mf, put im pretty sure it is all moisture because it had no smell at all. Well i tried to start again and no luck, so i pulled the plugs and they were covered with oil (oil was closing the gap on the plugs), so i get a brand new set of plugs again and go for it and same **** as before the oil, its wants to catch but it won't. So i try mystery oil and no start. So were I am at now I have a couple more tablespoons in the cylinders and im letting it soak overnight. So i think i found the probelm, but if the oil doesnt get it then what will, is there a chance the engine will need to be torn down cause the rings are shot or what? The engine only has 72k, with all the moisture that is engine could the rings just be rusty, and a long soak do the trick? Im so close, yet so far away...

[Derek A.]

What kind of shape is the fuel in the tank in ? Is it fresh? You can also try a little 80w90 gear oil in the cylinders to help bring the compression up. When you crank it keep your foot floored it should fire and clear itself out. Many people stop cranking just as it gets going or close the throttle and the car stalls.

[bjl4776]

The fuel is fresh, as well as the filter. I was told by a couple of old muslce car restore folk that marvel would work, but it seemed awful thin to seal anything up. If the soaking 20w50 doesn't fire it up, ill go for the gear oil tomorrow. Yea im trying to use the throttle as a choke, it will slmost fire with it at WOT and then ill close it and it will almost start again. When it ran I tried giving it gas, but I think i over did it and it stalled out. I think just some time and patience should work it out, but any other suggestions would still be helpful. Another guy said that they timing could be off but is that possible if the engine has never been opened, even with vanos? I mean it did start, even though it was briefly, so I don't think this is possible.

P.S.
Im monitoring the post constantly while im home, it is so sad how bad I want this car to run, I laugh at myself, please dont laugh back :)

[Javier]

Would something like this will ever happen to my M30?

Javier

[bjl4776]

Im sure it is possible if you let it setting around for 3+ years

[Bellicose Right Winger]

Interesting......MAF igniting ether is something I didn't consider. I guess I've been lucky. I had to resort to starting fluid to get my M50 running in 15F weather this weather. Had a serious flooding problem from not letting engine warm up on previous start.
Ether autoignites at 320F. Internet search says hot film MAF operates 170F above air temp and hot wire operates 212 above ambient, but I can't tell whose sensor this refers to. Hot wire sensors have a burn off cycle that likely exceeds 320F when engine is shut off. Do you believe our sensors operate higher then 320F?

http://www.wellsmfgcorp.com/counterpoints/Counterpoint3_2.pdf
http://www.performanceoiltechnology.com/amsoil_vs_gauze_air_filters.htm

Paul Shovestul



sensor, its a no no on them... can kill the sensor or in the case of the hotwire it can ignite at the wire, if your going to use starting fluid you'll have to come up with a way to put it way downstream of the mass air flow sensor.

[Derek A.]

Keep in mind to that those hot wires are not supposed to burn off very much. If you soak them in starting fluid - you could create enough of a short that it screws up the MAF. Have seen guys with E39 528s that put cheapo cold air kits that suck water on torch the MAF sensors.

[bjl4776]

YAY... I finally got it started with the help of some 80w90. Now that i got it started it wont idle at all. I don't mean that it fluctuates like there is a vacuum leak, but once you let the tach go below 1500rpm the car stall out. I let the car run for an hour (my foot was killing me towards the end), and the car didnt overheat and no evidence of headgasket leak. I figured this would clear away whatever **** was in the engine, but still stalls. There was alot of condensation in the exhaust that all burned off but it is almost like the engine is getting choked out on the exhause side, is that possible?

[RobPatt]

If all that stuff is good (fuel, spark, fuel press, compression....) what about the crank position sensor?

[RobPatt]

choked on the exhaust side? maybe got something (had something) making a nice little next in your exhaust? 'least you're making some progress, hope not to damage something enroute though.... good luck. -Rob.

[Bellicose Right Winger]

I suspect the burn off cycle is the reason hot film MAF's were developed. Do any mfr's still use hot wire MAF's? Certainly you don't want any liquid to contact the hot wire/hot film. But starting fluid evaporates so rapidly you'd almost have to aim the stream at the sensor for this to happen. The air flow straightener further blocks a direct shot at the sensor.

Paul Shovestul



Keep in mind to that those hot wires are not supposed to burn off very much. If you soak them in starting fluid - you could create enough of a short that it screws up the MAF. Have seen guys with E39 528s that put cheapo cold air kits that suck water on torch the MAF sensors.

[Derek A.]

Did you drive it ? You need to get the car out on the road and run it at speed for a while. You also need to change the oil stat! There is a ton of fuel and god knows what else in the oil. Its possible that the idle control valve is seized up. Squirt a bunch of carb clean in it and try to get it freed up. Spray around the motor with carb clean - should help you find the vac leak.

[bjl4776]

I didnt drive it yet, im going to try to clean the ICV and then change the oil and filter, and then ill take it for a test drive on the highway. Is there any chance that I can harm anything driving this thing at speed at this point, or will it just get it cleaned out like Im guessing?

Oh and here is a link to my cardomain so you can check out the car you are helping get back on the road again...
http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/789296/1

[Bill R.]

trooper first started using maf hotwire sensors I destroyed one using ether, made a really nice fireball out the air clean and destroyed the filter also. After that i started searching the manufacturers info and found out that you aren't supposed to spray it into the air intake on maf equipped cars...Needless to say i found out the hard way and got to buy a maf for the trooper i was working on. And it definitely ignited it while cranking ,not during the burn off cycle.. I know the burn off cycle will ignite it easily since its glowing hot when burning off.







Interesting......MAF igniting ether is something I didn't consider. I guess I've been lucky. I had to resort to starting fluid to get my M50 running in 15F weather this weather. Had a serious flooding problem from not letting engine warm up on previous start.
Ether autoignites at 320F. Internet search says hot film MAF operates 170F above air temp and hot wire operates 212 above ambient, but I can't tell whose sensor this refers to. Hot wire sensors have a burn off cycle that likely exceeds 320F when engine is shut off. Do you believe our sensors operate higher then 320F?

http://www.wellsmfgcorp.com/counterpoints/Counterpoint3_2.pdf
http://www.performanceoiltechnology.com/amsoil_vs_gauze_air_filters.htm

Paul Shovestul

[Bellicose Right Winger]

Bill, I guess we've all had our share fireballs out of carbs, singing hair and staining shorts, etc. Ether is real dangerous stuff. Based on your description, do you think there's any chance an intake backfire ignited the ether?

Cheers,
Paul Shovestul



trooper first started using maf hotwire sensors I destroyed one using ether, made a really nice fireball out the air clean and destroyed the filter also. After that i started searching the manufacturers info and found out that you aren't supposed to spray it into the air intake on maf equipped cars...Needless to say i found out the hard way and got to buy a maf for the trooper i was working on. And it definitely ignited it while cranking ,not during the burn off cycle.. I know the burn off cycle will ignite it easily since its glowing hot when burning off.