Turbo question for a 200K M20

[bondheli]

the bores will not be worn unless this thing was turboed or supercharged and raced, it WILL still have hone marks on the walls from when it was built, i did a m20 that had 311k miles on it and i couldn't find a ridge with a knife and it had hone marks. the only way id screw with the bimmer short block would be if it got dammaged by rust with the head being gone and walls being exposed to moisture without being oiled, or it was overheated and the pistons started to melt and or seize (nasty up/down scoring/blue marking and aluiminum deposited on the cylinder walls) a couple of the builds i've done (last one was a m52 in a 97 528) were due to a blown headgasket allowing water into the cylinder and it sitting too long and lightly pitting the walls

If I wanted to add a turbo and intercooler to produce 350hp, could I simply change out the head for a referbed one to have a reliable car? Is there anything I should worry about in the bottom end?

[niall]

just getting your compression ratios right,
and obvioulsy do a bottom end rebuild first,
big ends and mains etc.

[bondheli]

I can't afford a bottom end rebuild, thats why I asked. I want to find out how strong the bottom end of a 200k m20 (well takin care of) is, and how much of a gamble it is to turbo it without a rebuild.

Im thinking of a stage 1 rebuilt head with arp studs for the top end.

[pmlmotorsports]

I can't afford a bottom end rebuild, thats why I asked. I want to find out how strong the bottom end of a 200k m20 (well takin care of) is, and how much of a gamble it is to turbo it without a rebuild.

Im thinking of a stage 1 rebuilt head with arp studs for the top end.

well 350hp from an M20 is far fetched w/o a lot of upgrades........maybe a
well tuned M50 might, but even that is a stretch

[bondheli]

If the stage 1 head gives me around 20hp, then I'm only looking for an additional 160 horse. 12 psi and a large water/air intercooler will do that well. I am not the only one after this, check out spoolinturbo's post: http://www.bimmer.info/forum/showthread.php?t=11498&highlight=engine+rebuild

[niall]

i can tell you that you will not get 160bhp
that easily, no way, also, if you cant afford 100
or 200 bucks for a bottom end rebuild, then you shouldnt
even consider this.

[bondheli]

i can tell you that you will not get 160bhp
that easily, no way, also, if you cant afford 100
or 200 bucks for a bottom end rebuild, then you shouldnt
even consider this.

LOL... No, I can't afford $1000 to have the engine pulled, new seals, bearings, rings, and pistons installed and have it put back in. I'm sure the board would love for you to post some locations of shops that will rebuild a bottom end for < $200. What is your experience with turbos? A nice oversized turbo like an AR .60, some injectors, oversized maf, stage 1 head, and a 4 core intercooler would make 350hp without a problem.

[niall]

this is hilarious,
your obviously a master mechanic of 40 years
since you know so much about engines, its strange
that you dont know how to put in mains and big end
bearings.

go and learn something about cars

AND STOP READING ******** OFF THE INTERNET

[pundit]

I've got a battery powered hairdryer for sale... say five bucks? :p
Seriously if you can't afford to do it right the first time, it will cost twice as much in the long run not to. So if you can't afford once, you definately can't afford twice so then, about that hairdryer...?

[mattyb]

bloody hell. just buy another car for christs sake. turbo 525 with 200k. go the hairdryer and as your chums there say ,some product as well would be swell.

[E34-520iSE]

Using a turbo to DOUBLE your 525's HP is going to cost the earth. YOU MUST BUY New pistons, a complete head rebuild, a block rebuild, new custom exhaust manifold, re-mapped ECU, intercooler, . Even if you could just bolt a turbo set up on your car you would drive it down the street, floor the throttle and **BANG POP CRACK** engine destroyed. No no no no no.

[Jose]

Funny how some guys think it´s easy to built an turbo engine which actually works and lasts. We are currently making the necessary calculations for a M60 4,4 to scoop into a race E36 bodyshell with a twin turbo set up. It´s just a mind boggle my employer has been twisting with for a couple of years and now is the time to make it work. I can´t wait until we start the project in the metall. We jsut hope the bottem end will be able to cope with the extra bhp´s.

[E34-520iSE]

EXACTLY! At least you're doing your research beforehand, like Spoolinturbo has/is. these things cost $$$ to do, as you are well aware. If Bondheli decides to do it wrong the engine & turbo will be scrap. Simple!

Cheers,

Shaun

[TCD]

Doubling the HP will require ~13-14psi with a very efficient setup and exhaust. At that boost level you'll pop headgaskets without studs on occasion. At that boost level you'll also be testing the piston ring glands on those 200k pistons.
Todd

[E34-520iSE]

Doubling the HP will require ~13-14psi with a very efficient setup and exhaust. At that boost level you'll pop headgaskets without studs on occasion. At that boost level you'll also be testing the piston ring glands on those 200k pistons.
Todd
So does that mean you need special rings too? Do the glands wear much under normal/ non turbo/ everyday driving?

Cheers,

Shaun

[pundit]

Doubling the HP will require ~13-14psi with a very efficient setup and exhaust. At that boost level you'll pop headgaskets without studs on occasion. At that boost level you'll also be testing the piston ring glands on those 200k pistons.
Todd
Agreed. High performance engine developement involves two main elements.
Increased power & being able to produce that power long enough to get the job done. What will break first? Then what will break next? And what will break after that?

Top Fuel drag racing is a classic example of this. At 5000+ HP it's literally a case of 'what's going to break or not' which invariably determines the outcome.

More dollars can be spent on making a high performance engine reliable that making it powerful.

Simply bolting on a turbo and winding up the boost to double the power makes for an oversize hand grenade especially on an engine that has seen 200k.

[bondheli]

Doubling the HP will require ~13-14psi with a very efficient setup and exhaust. At that boost level you'll pop headgaskets without studs on occasion. At that boost level you'll also be testing the piston ring glands on those 200k pistons.
Todd

Thanks TCD, wish there were more people like you on the board and less of these people who are so egar to get into a pissing contest;


this is hilarious,
your obviously a master mechanic of 40 years
since you know so much about engines, its strange
that you dont know how to put in mains and big end
bearings.

go and learn something about cars

AND STOP READING ******** OFF THE INTERNET


bloody hell. just buy another car for christs sake.

A good 30k is all I want out of it. Im trying to find a setup in quality that will match the miles I expect to have left in this car. The HP figure is flexable, I'd like to turbo the car and get a good few miles out of it. I figure that if I strap a new head with arp studs on, my main worry would be leaking or blown rings and burning mucho oil. From what winfred said, it sounds like the short block is pretty solid.

[niall]

"What winfred said" applies only to the motors winfred has seen,
he cant tell you how solid your bottom end is and neither can I.
all i can say, and this is the general opinion is that it is foolish to go this
far without doing a rebuild, do some research and rebuild it yourself, its
not that difficult,

Its not a pissing contest, its people getting frustrated
by thinking that obtaining a 100% power increase, and
160% or so volumetric efficiency is something you do on
a weekend, without even doing a rebuild, also its foolish
to start off with a power figuere in your head and say, i want
that but i only have 100 bucks to spend. the right attitude if
you want to do a ghetto tastic turbo conversion is to say,
"right im going to turbo my M20 as much as my budget can provide
and i cant wait to get it on the dyno and see what it produces"
Check out this link to a bloke who did a ghetto job on a M10 e30
with very impressive results. also this will show you where you can
save a few bucks.
http://home.att.net/~jroal/jay/bmw.htm

[bondheli]

Here is where I'm coming from;
If I had the money to spend I would get an Audi A6 or a 7 series. As it stands, I like my car but it is way underpowered for my tastes. If I could spend $3k and have a reliable 300hp, I would be happy. I think in your posts you under estimate me a great deal. I quoted winfred in the original post in hopes that he would comment on this ( I assume he is one of the most experienced in this area on the board)

I would rebuild the block myself but I just don't have the time. The way I see it, this car is not worth sinking $5k into right now. I want a "fun whaile it last" turbo kit, and I'm not looking for something that will last me over 2 years.

[ukm5]

I think the problem here is the same with may posts, you ask a question looking for experienced answers instead you get hearsay. People giving very convincing opinions on why it will or wont work, but if you dig and ask how they know, its a case of well, im just presuming - like the people who say you must rebuild the bottom end. Now thats great maybe you have to, but the point is how do they know, have they built this turbo setup without rebuilding the bottom end only to have it blow up...no they havent they are guessing.

If you want to guess say so, but make it constructive, like, ask - is it burning oil? perhaps the rings may need doing then etc etc

Now its entirely up to the poster if they wish to do something, if you want to play with a turbo set up without spending much money, its entirely up to u. Now there were some posts here like from TCD that have experience in this and that info is valuable.

There are turbo products on the market for the M20, costing thousands and it would be easy for all of us to say oh you idiot you cant do that for little money, but who says? the products on the market are well engineered, tuned for optimal settings etc designed to last for years - but who says he cant do it on the cheap,a manifold and a turbo for $100 and see who it goes. If someone here had done that then that info would be wonderfull but please gentlemen dont guess with such conviction that you yourselves believe it.

[niall]

"but if you dig and ask how they know"

i know because im a mechanic, i do this stuff
for a living

[ukm5]

"but if you dig and ask how they know"

i know because im a mechanic, i do this stuff
for a living

have you built a turbo unit onto an M20 without rebuilding it?

[mattyb]

my apoligies. i didnt mean to bust your balls just for a laugh. good luck with however u decide to do it. for 300hp just graba 540 stock.it seems that 5 grand is ,as u allready are thinking, would be a waste maybe on this. on audis i can comment. forget about them.

[E34-520iSE]

I'm a bit disheartened that you say I want a "fun while it lasts" turbo kit. The general ethos of any upgrade (well to me anyway) would be reliability/durability, especially about the sums of money you mention, and the HP increase. If (for example) one of your big ends was "slightly" worn, and, while setting up your turbo/ecu that bearing could fail. I have seen this very thing happen on a Supra turbo. The catastropic result to the engine had to be seen to be believed. Shattered piston crown, shattered turbo vanes, and metal fragments in every nook and cranny, sump, bores, etc. Ruined. There was no salvageable parts left in that engine. A little bit of maintenance would have prevented this, and that car had only half the miles of yours. Is there a way of inspecting all the bottom end with the engine in place? Maybe that would be a way forward? I have seen a fair few engines that have failed spectacularly. Big holes in blocks after a piston went through, bent/snapped valves, even seized mains on 6 month old car. At the end of the day its your car, your money, your decision. I really do look forward to you telling us you've done it and it works. That will be great news.

All the best,

Shaun

[Hypr5]

Look for 260 crank hp. It's much much more realistic than 300+ on the m20 and would still be reliable. You could probably do this with 7 - 8 psi, efficient exhaust and no major bottom end build up. I wanted to do this a while ago, researched everything - started buying parts, etc... but I just don't have the time and energy for a project this large anymore.

Either way... in addition to all that, you'll need some excellent tuning on a car that old with that many miles to last more than 10k miles. You could be one of the lucky few who get away with just an rrfpr and larger injectors, but... don't take the chances, those things fail frequently. You should use stand alone engine management.. or stay at 7psi exactly and use 22 lb injectors and use the EAT m20 turbo chip.

above 260hp with the m20 is asking for trouble in the reliability department and is quite tough. "an oversized turbo" doesn't mean it will get you HP. There are maaannnny other factors. I can think of plenty of people running a .48 trim cranking out more reliable HP than .60 users.

[Jose]

Same here Niall, been experiencing and blowing up stuff for the last few years and are now in company with more then sufficient funds to experience more. Blowing up stuff is the best way to learn your materials and limitations and of course how to prevent from blowing up again. I am convinced that most of us on the board don´t `open our mouths`without knowing what we are talking about and have always the best interest for our fellow board members, that´s why we spend so much time here.

[Denasti]

I was thinking of doing the same thing but I am glad you asked the question first and got chewed instead of me. :p

What is the worst that can happen by the way, this isnt a brand new car. I see 525's and 535's parted out weekly all over the net. Worst case he would have to by a new engine used for 500-1k and throw it in and could returbo it and keep rolling.

How bout giving him some creative ideas as in which motor is best to turbo charge so that he can go possibly sell his and buy another 5 series with the right engine. Kinda along the lines that were suggested about buying a stock 540.

What about Supercharging? Seems the 525 is a dog up to 60 anyway but rolls nicely over 100 mph.

[niall]

Same here Niall, been experiencing and blowing up stuff for the last few years and are now in company with more then sufficient funds to experience more. Blowing up stuff is the best way to learn your materials and limitations and of course how to prevent from blowing up again. I am convinced that most of us on the board don´t `open our mouths`without knowing what we are talking about and have always the best interest for our fellow board members, that´s why we spend so much time here.

I think your opinion deserves alot more credit than what it gets,
nobody pays attention to the voice of reason and experience,
i think its a case of hearing what you want to hear.

like you said, the advice im giving him is not to **** on
his plans, im just trying to stop him from making a mistake
that could cost him big time, im all for turbo conversions,
just not ghettotastic ones

[Hypr5]

get an s50 engine in there and turbo that with about 14psi. Good for around 450wrhp and is still obdI :D

[bahnstormer]

yea i'm wondering as a couple ppl asked already why or where u got 350hp from?
that is quite a lot...more things than the engine will break at that point =]

is this your daily driver?

[pundit]

Maybe just get a manual 535i (M30) and chip it.
That will seem like 350hp after an M20! :p

[Hypr5]

TRUE!

the zf 4hp22 is only rated at 300hp 300 lb-ft MAX. It will surely break... unless you have a manual tranny? (i failed to read up and check)

Also - the small-housing diff won't like it at all. Thats why the 282hp 540 and 315hp m5 use the larger diff.

[BigKriss]

TRUE!

the zf 4hp22 is only rated at 300hp 300 lb-ft MAX. It will surely break... unless you have a manual tranny? (i failed to read up and check)


Where do you get this information from? please show me a few links, on the other hand, there a gentleman in melbourne with with a 1977 633csi with a e23 745 engine stuffed into it. it's running the zf 4ph22 gearbox, with a 220 rwhp and 840 nm of torque. it's been timed at 5.44 0 - 60 over 3 runs. 13 psi, 8 to 1 compression ration, 3.91 diff. These boxes are strong. have a look over mye28.

[Hypr5]

Where do you get this information from? please show me a few links, on the other hand, there a gentleman in melbourne with with a 1977 633csi with a e23 745 engine stuffed into it. it's running the zf 4ph22 gearbox, with a 220 rwhp and 840 nm of torque. it's been timed at 5.44 0 - 60 over 3 runs. 13 psi, 8 to 1 compression ration, 3.91 diff. These boxes are strong. have a look over mye28.

Either consider him lucky or he has his trans built up.
The 4hp22 is NOT a strong box for high power applications.. ESPECIALLY the pre 88 models.

I was told by many e30 owners who went FI that they had trans problems above 300hp.

[Zeuk in Oz]

The advantage that comes with being old - performance just has to be adequate, not earth shattering. :p
The M20 engine has many fine features - smoothness, quietness, fuel efficiency, refinement.
If that isn't enough, buy a sports car - the E 34 was never designed as a drop-top anyway. :D

[TCD]

TRUE!

the zf 4hp22 is only rated at 300hp 300 lb-ft MAX. It will surely break... unless you have a manual tranny? (i failed to read up and check)

Also - the small-housing diff won't like it at all. Thats why the 282hp 540 and 315hp m5 use the larger diff.

I have had zero diff failures. Even at the track on drag radials the diff held up. I just converted my car from G265 to non electronic 4hp22 with a 3300rpm stall converter. I have confidence in the tranny. We'll see how long it lasts with 400rwhp.

Todd

[Jon K]

this is hilarious,
your obviously a master mechanic of 40 years
since you know so much about engines, its strange
that you dont know how to put in mains and big end
bearings.

go and learn something about cars

AND STOP READING ******** OFF THE INTERNET


I wish we had a ban feature. This guy (niall) called me a "dickhead" in a now-deleted thread and has been making comments like the quoted one above for ages... real class.

[dacoyote]

I wish we had a ban feature. This guy (niall) called me a "dickhead" in a now-deleted thread and has been making comments like the quoted one above for ages... real class.

I have no doubt one of the mods will step in.. but there is a reason why we don't ban people and its one of the founding reasons why the site exists...

-Charles.

ps. why cannot eveyone just get along..