next time you buy something "Made in China", think of this article

[MarkD]

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/28cfe55a-f4a7-11d9-9dd1-00000e2511c8.html

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Top Chinese general warns US over attack
By Alexandra Harney in Beijing and Demetri Sevastopulo and Edward Alden in Washington
Published: July 14 2005 21:59 | Last updated: July 15 2005 00:03

China is prepared to use nuclear weapons against the US if it is attacked by Washington during a confrontation over Taiwan, a Chinese general said on Thursday.

“If the Americans draw their missiles and position-guided ammunition on to the target zone on China's territory, I think we will have to respond with nuclear weapons,” said General Zhu Chenghu.

Gen Zhu was speaking at a function for foreign journalists organised, in part, by the Chinese government. He added that China's definition of its territory included warships and aircraft.

“If the Americans are determined to interfere [then] we will be determined to respond,” said Gen Zhu, who is also a professor at China's National Defence University.

“We . . . will prepare ourselves for the destruction of all of the cities east of Xian. Of course the Americans will have to be prepared that hundreds . . . of cities will be destroyed by the Chinese.”

Gen Zhu is a self-acknowledged “hawk” who has warned that China could strike the US with long-range missiles. But his threat to use nuclear weapons in a conflict over Taiwan is the most specific by a senior Chinese official in nearly a decade.

However, some US-based China experts cautioned that Gen Zhu probably did not represent the mainstream People's Liberation Army view.

“He is running way beyond his brief on what China might do in relation to the US if push comes to shove,” said one expert with knowledge of Gen Zhu. “Nobody who is cleared for information on Chinese war scenarios is going to talk like this,” he added.

Gen Zhu's comments come as the Pentagon prepares to brief Congress next Monday on its annual report on the Chinese military, which is expected to take a harder line than previous years. They are also likely to fuel the mounting anti-China sentiment on Capitol Hill.

In recent months, a string of US officials, including Donald Rumsfeld, defence secretary, have raised concerns about China's military rise. The Pentagon on Thursday declined to comment on “hypothetical scenarios”.

Rick Fisher, a former senior US congressional official and an authority on the Chinese military, said the specific nature of the threat “is a new addition to China's public discourse”. China's official doctrine has called for no first use of nuclear weapons since its first atomic test in 1964. But Gen Zhu is not the first Chinese official to refer to the possibility of using such weapons first in a conflict over Taiwan.

Chas Freeman, a former US assistant secretary of defence, said in 1996 that a PLA official had told him China could respond in kind to a nuclear strike by the US in the event of a conflict with Taiwan. The official is believed to have been Xiong Guangkai, now the PLA's deputy chief of general staff.

Gen Zhu said his views did not represent official Chinese policy and he did not anticipate war with the US.

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Hopefully General Zhu does not have much influence.

MarkD

[Kalevera]

Well, it's been coming for a long time.

And just imagine how far we can get with most of this country trying to say women shi nin pengyou to an uncompromising government.

Completely O/T: I recommend a fantastic book by Nien Cheng, Life and Death in Shanghai.

best, whit

[Dash01]

I doubt very, very seriously that Chinese general was speaking only for himself or that his comments do not represent official (even if generally unspopken) Chinese government policy. At his age, he is surely a product of the so-called "cultural revolution" where people were sent to gulags for forced "re-education" or firing squads for suspected impure thoughts. In other words, this guy is steeped in group-think, so does not speak just for himself as a maverick, ever.

Every time you buy cheap counterfeit products from his country, or visit big-box retail stores and buy goods shipped here from his cournty, you are financing weapons that supply this general's army and supporting his strategic goals, which include domination of Asia, undermining of the US, and inevitable war with us.

Thank you MarkD for posting this.

[Martin in Bellevue]

Is the Chinese bid to buy Unocal. China will be effectively gaining the company's oil rights 20 years out, & expertise in Unocal's existing business structure. China represents a huge developing consumer market vying for scarce natural resources. My immediate neighbor is on the Unocal board.

In addition, last week I installed the first water pump that didn't make noise on my 535. It was new from China. The German Geba pump lasted 11 months I think, & squealed like a pig the whole time.

[Kalevera]

Well, it'd be a good thing for business...not necessarily the best thing, though. It would also be a convenient way for the Chinese government to return some of those billions in USD they're holding -- can you imagine what'll happen if they were to just DUMP that on the market?! Forget gas costing $5/gallon -- it'd be $10 in no time.

I'd like to see some clear alternatives to oil dependency. One intriguing development is the Stirling engine, which actually predates the internal combustion engine, applied to solar power. Somehow, I think people are stuck on the sound and feel of a gas powered car, though.

best, whit

[Brian C.]

....that was in The Washington Times....I think....that was about a Government "think-tank" that gives analysis on future possibilities. It said that many of those folks agree that China is about 6-8 years away from invading Taiwan. And how all the recent US Administrations have said that they would defend any invasion of Taiwan. They've steadily built up a supply of larger ships that would be capable of carrying troops. They have slowly upgraded their Navy and submarine fleet and seem to be on the verge of a position to vie for control of the shipping lanes between the Indian and Pacific Oceans. It was a sobering thought about the World's future.

EDIT>>I found the article, and GOOD NEWS! That 6-8 year estimate is actually about 2-3 years. Great.
Washington Times Article (http://www.washtimes.com/specialreport/20050626-122138-1088r.htm)

"Can't we all just get along?"
R. King


Brian C.

[Elekta]

What if the product reads,

Hecho en China

;)

[Brian C.]

....it probably would! :p

[upallnight]

Brought an a/c relay for my PORSCHE packaged in a PORSCHE box but the relay which had BOSCH on it also had Made In China. Anyone know if MEXICO makes relays for a PORSCHE.

[ryan roopnarine]

china just(or was) poised to buy canadian gas/oil company husky reeeal soon. for people who live in metro areas of canadia, there are no husky gas stations any longer, so it might not matter to them. the middle parts, however.....it would be like the chineese buying texaco in the 1980s. at any rate...canada supplies about 25% of the US gas supply via oil, i wouldn't be suprised if it wasn't no.1 or no. 2 oil supplier, there's even a provision in NAFTA requiring canada to share oil with the us dependent upon either CAN's output or by oil need. its a sizeable amount, and is more than the US gets from the middle east (IIRC, venezuela comes in afterward in ranking) was thinking that if the deal had gone thru, i'd have seen either an up/down in gas prices afterward.

[ryan roopnarine]

Brought an a/c relay for my PORSCHE packaged in a PORSCHE box but the relay which had BOSCH on it also had Made In China. Anyone know if MEXICO makes relays for a PORSCHE.

bosch outsources manufacturing to china, slovakia and czech republic, india, mexico, USA....i don't know where else.

[TheGeak]

Now not that I condone using nuclear weapons against anyone....but c'mon, could you really blame China for wanting to defend itself if we attacked? I'm sorry, but given our governments recent track record with foreign policy, if I were a country such as China, I would be somewhat concerned. Now I by no means claim to be an authority on US-Chinese relations but to me it seems that things had been pretty OK for a while, then someone in our country had to go and start war-mongering. I don't think any country in the world right now could be blamed for openly stating that it would defend itself from US attacks. Nuclear weapons is a bit of overkill perhaps, but if you've got 'em flaunt 'em.

[emw525E34]

Nothing to worry about folks. Its all talk from military generals who has egos way bigger than their balls!. Just look at the distance between China and US. Thats already the advantage in distance. Now, look at your close allies nearby using your technology to protect them and US as well.

1) South Korea. They have advanced Patriots and anti-missile missiles. So they can be First-Line to neutralise launches. Japan will likely detect the nuke ICMS as they when the engines/rockets were fired. Japanese has a couple of advanced spy satellites than monitors North Korean ICBMs even when they started to refuel the suckers!. Yes, real advance Spy Sats!.
2) Japan West bound, facing China is Second Line of defence. Japan East bound is Third Line of defence in case too many Nukes makes it across the Japanese mainland.
3) Alaska / Norad is Fourth Line of defence.
4) Scrambles of F16s within 2 mins as Last line of defence.

So, you can see that even if China launches 20 ICBMs with Nukes, they will eat their own radio-active dust form the fall-out. I doubt if they can launch hundreds in a day.

It takes about 7 mins to reach continental USA if the ICBMs are not neutralised in flight. Besides I doubt if the Chinese can aim straight on these missles anyway.
Also, China has no Advance nuclear subs. Thank God for that!. If they had one like Red October, then it would be troubling!.

[RobPatt]

... and how do you know they don't have long range nuke subs? or what TS materials may have sold/stolen/compromised? or what crypto may have come off the P-3 that landed there...? or their vye for access & control of the panama canal?.... or various sorts of info warfare, network attack methods to our infrastructure? as we've seen w/terrorists/insurgents/pakistan/iran/etc matching weapon to weapon is a tidy lineup (how low tech was 9/11 and are IEDs on the road?) but when unable tactics make all the difference. history will play it all out i guess... i like asian women and chinese buffets (synonymous...?) but otherwise, like some other places... 'would make a nice parking lot. :p

[Zeuk in Oz]

If you lived in Australia you would already have found that an alarming proportion of products that we buy are made in PRC.
Everything from air conditioners to televisions, stereos, toys etc etc.......
Michelin now have tyre plants in SE Asia so I must admit I felt some concern when i ordered new Diamaris tyres (275/55/V17) for my ML 270 CDI the other day. I was pleased to see they were still made in Spain however.
Our government has got rid of most manufacturing and much primary production in this country.
Therefore a large chunk of what we use is imported.
This means negative balance of payments against most countries and high interest rates. Shades of a third world country, in other words.
Our banks and telcos now have their call centres in such countries as India.

[MarkD]

What if the product reads,

Hecho en China

;)

Then maybe there is a town in Mexico called "China" :D

[Shayne]

I don't get it.
The article says, and I quote, "If the Americans draw their missiles and position-guided ammunition on to the target zone on China's territory, I think we will have to respond with nuclear weapons".
So if the Chinese were to "draw their missiles and position-guided ammunition on to the target zone on Puerto Rico" what would your response be?
And since someone brought it up why single out the Chinese? The French supplied the Genocidarme in Rwanda. Who has the US and Western nations supplied over the last 20 years?
To name a very few Zaire, Sierra Leone, Somalia, Turkey, Israel; where are they getting their weapons and ammunition? Before we start pointing fingers its time to look in the mirror!!!! How many times have US soldiers been killed by weapons supplied by Western nations, indeed, the US!?
And before we bring up Taiwan and its sovereignty and Chinese aggression how can we speak with any kind of conviction while occupying an independent sovereign nation!?
So to boycott products from a nation because of something they said or weapons supplied or civilians killed due to aggression or apathy would mean we would have very few sources of goods!!! Very few indeed.

[MarkD]

I don't get it.
(snipped most of your response only because it can be read above)

So to boycott products from a nation because of something they said or weapons supplied or civilians killed due to aggression or apathy would mean we would have very few sources of goods!!! Very few indeed.


Actually, I try very hard not to buy products from China for quite a few other reasons, such as :

- the bad human rights record in China

- the fact that they generally don't care much about the pollution and environmental damage they cause when manufacturing these products.

- they have purposely fixed their currency artificially low (by at least 30% ) so that they sell more to foreign countries

Also, I figure that we don't need them as the superpower they can easily be if everyone thinks they should buy cheaper Chinese products instead of items from other countries.

Yesterday, I went to a store to buy a beard trimmer. The Remington model was made in China and cost $52. The Philips one was around $60 and was made in Austria. It was eay to decide which to buy...
I just hope there isn't a city called "Austria" in China ;)

There will always be other sources for goods, the reason they seem to be dwindling is everyone is just going to Walmart and buying whatever is cheapest.

I've got a friend here in Toronto that had a small tool and die company,
now he's a courier as many of his major customers are sending the work to China, and then calling him to fix the mistakes made over there. I can tell you a few other similar stories.


MarkD

[ryan roopnarine]

items from other countries.

Yesterday, I went to a store to buy a beard trimmer. The Remington model was made in China and cost $52. The Philips one was around $60 and was made in Austria. It was eay to decide which to buy...
I just hope there isn't a city called "Austria" in China ;)



MarkD


im somewhat comforted to see that i'm not the only one that does this. if i have to go into walmart for any reason at all, i try to see if there's a non-china alternative...not because i dislike china, but because i grow weary of having stuff break in exactly 2 years.

[TheGeak]

I wouldn't shop at Wal-Mart because of their company's 'mission statement'. Not the public one that they want you to believe, but the one that was leaked out in a few memo's...the one that reads "we'll put everyone else out of business and then jack up our prices to make a huge profit" Sorry, i'll pay the extra money not to give these evil bastards money.

[Dash01]

Again, I'm with MarkD and TheGeak on this: I categorically refuse to subsidize people who have an announced official policy of preparing for inevitable war with my country, of undermining human rights, and whose record of obvious cheating on copyrights and intellectual property is appalling.

Besides that, the quality and durability of Chinese products is generally poor, making them actually among the most expensive, when true life-cycle costs are taken into account.

And, it is extremely poor public policy for any government (including ours or that of Australia, etc.) to allow jobs and industrial infrastructure to be exported, wholesale, to another country, especially one that sees us as the enemy.

Further, our government, in reducing tax for the very richest, has incurred a sudden and massive deficit, and now covers the deficit by borrowing from---the Chinese! So, we borrow money that started here from buying at Wal-Mart, then went to Bejing to finance the military machine that prepares for war with us, and which now covers the tax obligations of the very richest people. So, when the "inevitable" war comes, we'll be fighting with our banker! Whose children will be drafted to fight in that war?

[DaCan23]

I think 100% of the stuff in Crate & Barrell is made in China, and from what I've heard the manufacturer sells the same stuff unbranded to Chinese stores for retail is about 90% less than what Crate charges for the stuff

[Lennyz525i]

Before we start pointing fingers its time to look in the mirror!!!! How many times have US soldiers been killed by weapons supplied by Western nations, indeed, the US!?
And before we bring up Taiwan and its sovereignty and Chinese aggression how can we speak with any kind of conviction while occupying an independent sovereign nation!?
So to boycott products from a nation because of something they said or weapons supplied or civilians killed due to aggression or apathy would mean we would have very few sources of goods!!! Very few indeed.

True. I'd also like to add that you shouldn't take whatever a pissed off general says too seriously, he might have even been totally misquoted (is that even a word?). Also, too many people express blunt opinions about China without knowing anything about China. So for the record:

China has a population of 1.3 billion. It has numerous cities like Shanghai, Beijing, Shenzhen and now also Hong Kong all with populations of at least a few million well educated, motivated and hard working chinese. China has been growing economically at a stunning rate of around 9% for more then a decade now. Differently put, China will be the number 1 economic superpower very soon whether you like it or not. If you think China only consists of sweatshops owned by western companies and that the chinese government is about suppressing its people you really need to get a ticket to Shanghai, look, learn and then tell me what you think about China.

That's all. I hope this board won't get too many OT political threads, it's too good to be destroyed by that.

Ps, Shayne, good to see you here!

[Shayne]

Thanks Len. No more politics. I promise!
Mark,
I think the problem with all boycotts is that it has no affect on those we are attempting to punish. The typical Chinese working family is the only victim. Do you truly think Zhu would notice?
The irony here is that the 'democratic' US is just as guilty of human rights violations yet the perpetrators go unpunished under the guise of 'freedom', 'democracy', and 'antiterrorism'.
Propaganda is alive and well and thriving at home in the USA just as well as in China.
My motto is buy local, and if you cannot then buy quality. That means downtown in stores owned and operated locally. It doesn't matter if it's made in China, Turkey, or Iceland. The money stays in the community and the local economy benefits.
'Made in the USA' means absolutely nothing if the price has been leveraged to the last cent by Wal-Mart or Costco at the expense of employee's wages or benefits and all the profits are invested offshore. Or if the company has reaped the benefits of 'corporate welfare' in its many forms. Capitalism indeed.
Help your neighbours, speak out against atrocities here and abroad, open your eyes, take a long hard look in the mirror, and it will all work out in the end.

[TheGeak]

My motto is buy local, and if you cannot then buy quality. That means downtown in stores owned and operated locally. It doesn't matter if it's made in China, Turkey, or Iceland. The money stays in the community and the local economy benefits.

Here, Here!