::.. Why you be very wary of using PayPal

[Qube]

As continued from: http://www.bimmer.info/forum/showthread.php?t=12492, MarkD

In a nutshell:
- Sell on eBay, pay via PayPal ensuring verified Buyer.
- Seller claims non-receipt
- Send all tracking information INCLUDING signature data to PayPal
- PayPal ignores and processes refund to buyer
- PayPal freezes $175 (they say it's standard)
- Investigation ensues for weeks
- Account is frozen because of negative balance
- Informed from MarkD and another eBay seller that their funds are under investigation for 'fraud'
- More faxes and mails to PayPal
- PayPal processes full claim in favor of Buyer
- Account completely limited
- Send appeal to PayPal, and fax all information AGAIN
- Appeal denied. Why? TRACKING INFO CANNOT BE VIEWED ONLINE!
- Call PayPal, walk through on the phone to view information
- Attempt appeal and case in review
- Meanwhile, PAYPAL REVERSES PAYMENTS TO SELLERS!

This makes absolutely NO sense! Mark, I received a message that you called. Understandably why now. The truly f*cked up part of it is I don't have the funds that were reversed AND I can't move them anywhere because my account is limited!

So, I don't have the money. The folks I paid to don't have the money. WHO HAS THE MONEY? The fraudulant Buyer and PayPal, whom is helping them!

Since then, the Buyer on eBay has changed their email and made their feedback on eBay private.

I say again... Seller protection is a farce.

I'll call you tonight, Mark. :(



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[MarkD]

As continued from: http://www.bimmer.info/forum/showthread.php?t=12492, MarkD

In a nutshell:
- Sell on eBay, pay via PayPal ensuring verified Buyer.
- Seller claims non-receipt
- Send all tracking information INCLUDING signature data to PayPal
- PayPal ignores and processes refund to buyer
- PayPal freezes $175 (they say it's standard)
- Investigation ensues for weeks
- Account is frozen because of negative balance
- Informed from MarkD and another eBay seller that their funds are under investigation for 'fraud'
- More faxes and mails to PayPal
- PayPal processes full claim in favor of Buyer
- Account completely limited
- Send appeal to PayPal, and fax all information AGAIN
- Appeal denied. Why? TRACKING INFO CANNOT BE VIEWED ONLINE!
- Call PayPal, walk through on the phone to view information
- Attempt appeal and case in review
- Meanwhile, PAYPAL REVERSES PAYMENTS TO SELLERS!

This makes absolutely NO sense! Mark, I received a message that you called. Understandably why now. The truly f*cked up part of it is I don't have the funds that were reversed AND I can't move them anywhere because my account is limited!

So, I don't have the money. The folks I paid to don't have the money. WHO HAS THE MONEY? The fraudulant Buyer and PayPal, whom is helping them!

Since then, the Buyer on eBay has changed their email and made their feedback on eBay private.

I say again... Seller protection is a farce.

I'll call you tonight, Mark. :(



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Hi Jason,

I just got off the phone with someone at PayPal, she said that the payment was reversed since I didn't provide any info for their investigation. I've been busy and didn't have time, and I felt they didn't need any info from me anyway.

I told her what I thought of PayPal. I've got to find a new method to accept payments soon as I'm closing my PayPal account.

Mark

[Kalevera]

What?

I'm truly confused, especially as to why this <apparently private> business is on the forum?

[MarkD]

What?

I'm truly confused, especially as to why this <apparently private> business is on the forum?


Qube wants to warn people against using PayPal. I would also tell everyone that you should find some other online transaction method. People I know saying they got ripped of by PayPal, but didn't think it would happen to me. Now I know it can happen.

They told me to take Qube to small claims court to get the cash from him...

PayPal only told me there was a problem about 5 weeks after I got his order.

Mark

[Qube]

Name is Jason :) I won't be back until late so I'll ring you up at work tomorrow.

The primary objective of this post is to bring to light that this sort of thing can hit close to home... home being Bimmer.info ;) Secondly, it goes to show just how much unregulated control PayPal has over your money. My beef is that they are...

#1 freezing funds in other people's accounts more than a month later
#2 reversing transactions and put money BACK in my account, to which I cannot access!
#3 STILL ALLOWING payments to come into my account, and no way to stop that!
#4 So far denying two requests for appeal even with full certified tracking information. Certified because the postal outlet packed it to ensure it for full $1000+ value.

Really, I have to say I wouldn't have given a damn about it any more until it got Mark and James (another seller) involved. As you can see they (PayPal) haven't touched the case since August 1st... since late June when it started.


** NB, I bet they didn't give you your seller fee back for the reversal now did they?

[Jon K]

HAD THE EXACT same thing happen with me, only it was over $800, they "froze" it and told me they will hold it indefinitely until it is "resolved". I am not sure what was to be "resolved" as I was sending money to my mom! Paypal is a huge freaking mess, few people realize it!

[pundit]

I'm kind of concerned that Paypal has my credit card details. After my problems with them I won't be using them again either so there is no longer any need for them to have my details. I'm going get a new card this week and trash the old one. With the amount of data and identity theft going I'm not going to take any chances.

[rickm]

You can close your account, I did. It took longer to cancel than to create the damn thing. :P

[Jon K]

I'm kind of concerned that Paypal has my credit card details. After my problems with them I won't be using them again either so there is no longer any need for them to have my details. I'm going get a new card this week and trash the old one. With the amount of data and identity theft going I'm not going to take any chances.


My account was hooked up to my checking account, I closed the checking account too. When I told the bank worker I wanted to close the account he asked "Why?" I said "Because of PayPal" and hes like "What's wrong with PayPal" woooooooooo

[Brian C.]

Not that I doubt that you've had the problems that you describe, but because I've never had any problems myself. I'm certainly not a huge user of Paypal, but in the past 6 or 7 years I've completed maybe 120-150 transactions on E-Bay, buying and selling, with Paypal payments and a couple Paypal but non-E-bay transactions, and I've never had a single thing go wrong. I buy something from a buyer that accepts Paypal, I either hit the "Pay Now" button on the auction page or get their e-mail address and do the transaction myself. And when I'm owed money, it goes into my account. My account is linked to my checking account and to my Amex as a backup and I've transfered cash back and forth with no problems.

Is this unusual? Do any others NOT experience any of the problems that Mark D and Qube have been speaking of? My account is confirmed, are yours? It sort of worries me that I don't have the problems that you all have had, but I just wonder if I do things differently than you.

Brian C.

[Jon K]

Not that I doubt that you've had the problems that you describe, but because I've never had any problems myself. I'm certainly not a huge user of Paypal, but in the past 6 or 7 years I've completed maybe 120-150 transactions on E-Bay, buying and selling, with Paypal payments and a couple Paypal but non-E-bay transactions, and I've never had a single thing go wrong. I buy something from a buyer that accepts Paypal, I either hit the "Pay Now" button on the auction page or get their e-mail address and do the transaction myself. And when I'm owed money, it goes into my account. My account is linked to my checking account and to my Amex as a backup and I've transfered cash back and forth with no problems.

Is this unusual? Do any others NOT experience any of the problems that Mark D and Qube have been speaking of? My account is confirmed, are yours? It sort of worries me that I don't have the problems that you all have had, but I just wonder if I do things differently than you.

Brian C.

http://www.paypalwarning.com/

[632 Regal]

I haven't had ANY problems either.

[Brian C.]

I didn't know about all that, and....I will reconsider my use of their services in the future.

Brian C.

[uscharalph]

Personally I've never had any problems with PalPal. And I don't really what to say exactly how many times I've used them.

[Qube]

Well do a search for PayPal on Google and look at the top hits :)

========================================

PayPal - WelcomePayPal lets you send money to anyone with email. PayPal is free for consumers and works seamlessly with your existing credit card and checking account.
www.paypal.com/ - 16k - Cached - Similar pages

PayPalSucks.com is where you will learn about the paypal class ...PayPalSucks.com is about educating people to the dangers of using PayPal and how to avoid being ripped off. It also has the most information about the ...
www.paypalsucks.com/ - 25k - Aug 13, 2005 - Cached - Similar pages

eBay - New & used electronics, cars, apparel, collectibles ...PayPal Buyer Protection · eBay Toolbar ... Feedback Forum | eBay Toolbar | Downloads | Gift Certificates | PayPal | Jobs | Affiliates | Developers | The ...
www.ebay.com/ - 56k - Aug 13, 2005 - Cached - Similar pages

PayPal Fraud Warning - Virus Alert, PayPal Alternatives, Horror ...Your PayPal account can be frozen at any time, without advance notice leaving you without your money for weeks (if not forever), and there isn't much you ...
www.paypalwarning.com/ - 79k - Aug 13, 2005 - Cached - Similar pages

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My point is, there should be NO WAY that the problem I had with my fraudulent buyer trickle to other transactions I've done, six weeks ago... not to mention that they are not accepting hard and fast evidence that the item was shipped and SIGNED for by the buyer in question of my case :|

The final point here is now they took money back from Mark, dumped it in my account to which I cannot touch. The reversal was not even complete back into my account. So I have less money, Mark has no money, and obviously I need to pay Mark again. So I'm now or will be out of pocket TWICE for this transaction... plus PayPal fees, plus the amount of the fraudulant claim... and so on.

[Lennyz525i]

Interesting stuff. Am thinking about closing my paypal account too now. I'd be really messed to get your account frozen for a period of time.

[MarkD]

Not that I doubt that you've had the problems that you describe, but because I've never had any problems myself. I'm certainly not a huge user of Paypal, but in the past 6 or 7 years I've completed maybe 120-150 transactions on E-Bay, buying and selling, with Paypal payments and a couple Paypal but non-E-bay transactions, and I've never had a single thing go wrong. I buy something from a buyer that accepts Paypal, I either hit the "Pay Now" button on the auction page or get their e-mail address and do the transaction myself. And when I'm owed money, it goes into my account. My account is linked to my checking account and to my Amex as a backup and I've transfered cash back and forth with no problems.

Is this unusual? Do any others NOT experience any of the problems that Mark D and Qube have been speaking of? My account is confirmed, are yours? It sort of worries me that I don't have the problems that you all have had, but I just wonder if I do things differently than you.

Brian C.

Brian,

as a seller, I have had various people tell me they don't have a PayPal account because of some screw-up where they ended up losing money.

There is someone that I deal with quite a bit, and he cancelled his account because they took money from him. I can have him come here and post the details. It just seems like something people talk about, but seems so far- fetched, till it actually happens. The bad thing is that they send you emails telling you they have frozen some funds, but don't even explain why. The email that said they were returning Jason's payment to him just said that they decided to return it, no further details given! It makes it seem like I'm the criminal.

Just to recap, he ordered a chip from me on June 12, and I shipped it within a few days. Then 4 weeks later, PayPal puts the funds from him on hold (by withdrawing it from my account) and yesterday they say they decided it should be refunded to him.

How would you like that? I wish I could find a fast replacement for PayPal, I'd remove them from my site very quickly. I just don't know what to switch to.

Mark

[Karl]

Besides that...
I've gotten a couple phishing e-mails that have a very good representation of pay pal web pages and link that looks like pay pal to my browser.

[SharkmanBMW]

I have no problems with them at all, BUT I can see how that could change by one transaction with the wrong buyer/seller that messes you up.
I have a large paypal balance I am about to use on wheels, I just want to pay and be done with it! before they decide to seize my $$$ for whatever reason!

[Brian C.]

....leave a balance sitting in my PayPal account. If I buy something it gets debited from my checking account.....which now sounds a bit unwise, after reading all these posts.....and if I sell something and it gets deposited into my PayPal account, I usually either immediately transfer it to my checking account, or buy some stuff for myself that is roughly that amount.

The part Mark says about them refunding to others by withdrawing it from his account doesn't seem very correct to me. Mark, is that amount withdrawn from your PayPal account or Bank account, and if you didn't have enough funds in your PayPal account, would they have withdrawn it from your bank or CC account without your knowledge?

Brian C.

[Jon K]

Here's the brutual reality of the matter. I owed my mother whom I still live with (im 20) about $800. I deposited that money in my checking account and moved it ot my PayPal account to make online purchases. I decided to not make online purchases and sent her the money via her paypal account, and they actually "thought" $800 transaction was fraudulent - rather they simply put a "hold" on the money - even though the transaction was from one account @ 1614 Bridgetown Pike to the SAME address, SAME last name, DIFFERENT paypal accounts.... so, yeah if sending an IMMEDIATE relative money is means for a fraudulent flag... i don't even know what to say. And after that matter, they would answer the phone and simply say "we have the money on hold. There is no indication as to why. It will be lifted when the suspicions are cleared."

Suspicions... yeah i've got suspicions...


Oh yes, and the fact that they put the money on hold in my moms checking account meant that all her bills that were electronically/automatically payed via electronic means, well... since the $800 hold is actually an $800 debit... her account was overdrafted by $800.... imagine the fees for that, plus failure to pay bills... forget paypal.

[Spasso]

I feel this is important enough to repost.
I never had a problem with PayPal but I closed my bank account and canceled the credit card associated with PayPal after reading this;

Here is an excerpt from a former employee. This is what convinced me to close my account. This is really scary stuff!


I was a "middle management type" with Pay-Pal until leaving recently- partally due to my disgust over their internal security policies which have led to the mountain of complaints seen on this and other similar boards. There aren't many PP whistleblowers; during your "exit interview" a soon-to-be-former manager is warned, intimidated and threatened against doing the very thing I'm doing right now. But since I left to start my own business, there's not a thing they can do to me.

Pay-Pal DID start as an honest, legitimate company with an innovative service concept. However, in my opinion, this concept can never actually WORK in the real world because there are legions of scammers all over the globe with reams of stolen credit card info and identifications just WAITING to swoop down on any new "payment service" like this that comes along. Credit-card transactions where the "card is not present" and thus personally examined by a clerk account for the overwhelming majority of fraud transactions.
Comparitavely, there's very LITTLE credit card fraud at Wal-Mart, because the cashieractually sees both you and the card- and can ask for supporting identification at the point of sale. Unfortunatly, the high-risk, "card not present" transactions are the ONLY kind of transaction a company like PP can do, and boy- did the con artists find them in a hurry!

The basic con was (and is) to use stolen identification information to open new PP
accounts, funnel money into them with stolen credit card numbers, then transfer the money
OUT of the account before PP gets the charge-back and can freeze it. Unfortunately, despite PP's claims of having a "tough anti-fraud program", these people are mostly impossible to catch, because when opening a new PP account, they DO have all the proper-appearing ID information (which was stolen or conned out of unsuspecting
individuals, most of whom have never HEARD of Pay-Pal). When fraud is uncovered and the account is checked out, the perp is almost never caught, since it was almost always opened under a stolen identity, and he's long abandoned the mail-drop.

Yes, the application process COULD be made more stringent, but it is felt (probably correctly) that a brand-new customer would certainly balk at doing things like sending in notorized copies of their driver's licence and so forth. So an alternate strategy" for offsetting the charge-back losses slowly evolved at PP. It's the perfect scheme really; since PP can't usually catch the scammers and dosen't want to loose customer base by making things more stringent to start with- they decided to simply re-coup their chargebacks from the pockets (and accounts) of good, solid people under the easily-defensible and impossible-to-criticize guize of "Fraud Prevention and Enforcement".. Simply put, if you're a seller and somebody pays you with a stolen credit card, you're targeted by PP security and might very well have your account siezed, investigated", closed- and the money retained by PP. (Yes... they simply "add" it to their revenues and spend it like any other income. You basically gave them permission to do this under the "terms and conditions" you originally agreed to. No, I KNOW you didn't really read it, but I bet you will the next time!). Even if the person paying you has NOT used a stolen credit card, he could have been been flagged by PP as "somebody to keep an eye on" for any one of numerous reasons. If he does business with YOU, especially multiple times- you're frozen.

OCCASIONALLY some lucky soul will complain about the siezure, and when the case is "investigated" by PP he is "cleared" and the money unfrozen. This good fortune has nothing to do with an actual "investigation" (there aren't any, really). Pay-Pal WILL unfreeze a small percentage of the accounts (as a future defense against a potential class action), so you MAY benefit from a simple luck of the draw. See, if it ever comes down to a
massive class-action lawsuit, or even testimony before the SEC or other regulatory body,
PP wants to be able to stand up in court and say "But your honor, we DON'T just freeze accounts and pocket the money. We really DO perform a painstaking investigation. Here's the proof... look at all these people who WERE suspected, but were then cleared by our "crack security staff"! If this was really a scam, why would we have given all of THIS this money back?"

I'm amused by the posts that say, "But I've been a good customer of PP since the beginning and have paid thousands in fees.... why would they have done this to ME?" Let me answer that with a hypothetical question: If you were an unregulated financial services company so embittered by fraud losses that you, yourself, had completely lost whatever moral compass you might have once possessed, what would YOU rather have: a happy,
content customer whos business might account for $5000 worth of fees over the next 10 years, or a person who's pissed off and will NEVER do business with you again, BUT you've got his $5000 up-front, TODAY- siezed directly out of his account with no appeal possible. Believe me, it's a no-brainer to these people. They have sort of developed a wierd corporate mindset wherein their past (and ongoing) victomization at the hands of con-artists somehow gives them license to "pass it along" to others. Think the E-Bay purchase will make it all better? Guess again. If ANY company knows the reality of on-line schermes and scams, it's E-Bay. While they certainly know that a nice chunk of their fee come from people who ultimately turn out to be thieves (but hey... their money is just as green as that of the honest folks) do you think E-Bay wants to open THEMSELVES (or a subsidary company) up to the same risks as their bidders are exposed to? No way.




On another issue, I see lots of complaints from those who have BOUGHT things and paid through PP who find their credit cards suddenly drained and/ or billed multiple times for the same transaction. The answer is simple; PP has very lax hiring procedures, ESPECIALLY compared to the standards any bank would impose on anybody employed in a similar position of trust. But don't forget- PP ISN'T a bank, so they feel no obligation to hire (and, of course, compensate) people as if they were. Unlike the "account freezing" thing, the scams pulled on buyer's credit cards aren't a part of any "master plan" by the company, but simply the work of some dishonest employees who nonetheless have access to ALL of a customer's personal information. Yes, it's scary. Schemes are rampent where a PP employee has a cousin or friend set up an account to receive payments in another name.

Since it's an "inside job", these "phantoms" will, of course, sail through the PP application process with flying colors- even if all of the infomation was simply "made up". Then your easily-accessable credit card number is used as payment for phony "auctions" and so forth done through the phantom account. The PP employee who actually approves this transaction might very be the one running the scheme! Given their system and the way the computers are networked together, this is pretty simple for almost any employee to do. Even if you DON'T have access to the PP customer database, you almost certainly have lunch in the break room or visit at the water cooler with someone who does. Many people have been quietly terminated for this (rarely, if ever prosecuted- since this would be a huge black eye for the company), and in reality, THIS is where the majority of PP security and
investigative resources go: to policing their shoddily-selected workforce.

PayPal is NOT regulated by or obliged to follow any Federal escrow or banking laws.

NO WAY will I ever allow an entity like this access to any of my account or credit information again.

DJ

[GaryE]

I am currently involved with a chargeback case myself. A customer paid using fraudulent details, I have delivered my services and paid using the money provided to me. PayPal have taken the fraudulent funds and now have charged me a $45 chargeback fee which was in the t&c's. A loss mounting to nearly $125 (£60) so far just for accepting a PayPal payment. :/

I didn't know about the above websites, and will definitely stop using my account!

[Brian C.]

I've gotten to where I wonder if the ease of doing business, which 95% is actually just me buying stuff on E-Bay, is worth the potential of the abuse that seems to occur with more frequency than I had ever thought. The first few E-Bay transactions I ever had I would just send money orders, but then PayPal seemed the easier way to go. Now I dunno.

So my question now is, if I were to cancel my PayPal account, what would happen to my credit card and checking account numbers? Just by canceling an account, would that purge all my personal information from their systems? Is this a case of heading off a potential theft, not to mention identity theft situation by changing all my PayPal-related account numbers? That might seem a bit extreme, but believe me, I'm very familiar with the consequences of identity theft. Huh............I'm somewhat concerned about something that hasn't happened and that's very unusual for me. What do you guys think would be the result of just canceling a PayPal account?

Brian C.

[Qube]

I've gotten to where I wonder if the ease of doing business, which 95% is actually just me buying stuff on E-Bay, is worth the potential of the abuse that seems to occur with more frequency than I had ever thought. The first few E-Bay transactions I ever had I would just send money orders, but then PayPal seemed the easier way to go. Now I dunno.

So my question now is, if I were to cancel my PayPal account, what would happen to my credit card and checking account numbers? Just by canceling an account, would that purge all my personal information from their systems? Is this a case of heading off a potential theft, not to mention identity theft situation by changing all my PayPal-related account numbers? That might seem a bit extreme, but believe me, I'm very familiar with the consequences of identity theft. Huh............I'm somewhat concerned about something that hasn't happened and that's very unusual for me. What do you guys think would be the result of just canceling a PayPal account?

Brian C.

You can close and request they remove your information, but it will always be there. Nothing is ever really gone... especially in such an unregulated environment. Your best bet is to use far disconnected accounts on PayPal. Change your CC number at the very least.

[ve39]

http://www.****paypal.com/

[Qube]

http://paypalsucks.com/graphics/PPS-Cartoon1.gif

[dacoyote]

LOL... and way to true...

-Charles