Supercharged!

[Jon K]

Hey guys, spent this weekend rushing around getting my forced induction setup done. Here it is. I am not boosting it yet as I need a better idler pulley. I also haven't picked which belt I am going to use yet... since I am swapping out a different diameter idler pulley. But here she is installed and in all her glory!

http://e34.digital7.com/blowerthru.jpg

[stx133]

neat photoshop work. what are the specs on the blower, vortex? CFM? good to see you are ducting for a cold air intake and not going for a POD style air filter that sucks up all the lovely hot air from under the bonnet.

[bahnstormer]

your intake is on the wrong side of your engine =]

[RobPatt]

...how many miles on your M50? Or is it a M50TU?
What engine quality checks did you do before deciding to install? (leakdown or something?) Where'd you get, etc, would like details on the project as would like to consider same for mine.... Happy motoring, and w/out extra weight of the 4 liter :-)

[Jr ///M5]

Do you think your Mom can stitch up that opening in your hood? You really should fix that....=) I'm still impressed with the French stitching she did on the alcantera shift boot...is she still married?? =)..ha, ha..

Good luck setting up the turbo, if it is anything like your photoshop skills, it will kick ass....

Jr

[Jon K]

...how many miles on your M50? Or is it a M50TU?
What engine quality checks did you do before deciding to install? (leakdown or something?) Where'd you get, etc, would like details on the project as would like to consider same for mine.... Happy motoring, and w/out extra weight of the 4 liter :-)


Its an M50 non-tu. 177k miles. Burns some oil. Holds 19" of vacuum so I don't really think a compression check was totally necessary. Buddy on here had 200k+ miles when he was boosting 12 psi on a M50 non vanos. VERY solid motor. I will be making 6.5 psi. Roughly 290 - 300 whp, or about 315 - 325 crank. I have a front mount intercooler i will install later. Its full custom so as for places to buy from I cannot really say. It's an ASA based charger I purchased used. Relatively expensive and time-consuming setup but it's worth it in the end. Once I have it all buttoned up I will post my insights :)

@JR:

Haha she is married. The stitching was rather incredible I do agree! Tell ya what, how about a shift-boot in trade for your M5? Deal? Done!

[Kalevera]

slick photoshop work, mate.

:D

best, whit

[brodee]

Nice work but how do you figure 300whp with only 6.5psi?

[Jon K]

Nice work but how do you figure 300whp with only 6.5psi?


How? By dyno's...


An E46 323i made 295 hp wheel (corrected) and a 325i made 302 hp wheel (corrected) while a 330ci made 335hp wheel (corrected). I am putting myself between the 323 and 325, so should be about 300 ish. "only" 6.5 psi is a lot of power when you stick it inside a naturally aspirated motor with no dropped compression...

[brodee]

How? By dyno's...
An E46 323i made 295 hp wheel (corrected) and a 325i made 302 hp wheel (corrected) while a 330ci made 335hp wheel (corrected). I am putting myself between the 323 and 325, so should be about 300 ish. "only" 6.5 psi is a lot of power when you stick it inside a naturally aspirated motor with no dropped compression...

I said "only" 6.5psi because Dinan's running ~6psi puts out 102hp on an s50. That constitutes to about 300 rwhp on an engine that is already 50hp more than yours.

What do you mean by "corrected" on the dyno runs?

[Gayle]

What an awesome picture! I have been tossing around the idea that we should do a custom e34 calendar for 2006 with pictures of our cars. If we did it, I think that picture should be the cover shot.

[Jon K]

I said "only" 6.5psi because Dinan's running ~6psi puts out 102hp on an s50. That constitutes to about 300 rwhp on an engine that is already 50hp more than yours.

What do you mean by "corrected" on the dyno runs?


I don't really want to get in the arguments of why or how, but there have been dynos compared. On bimmerforums, the M50 nontu @ 6 psi made 6 more horsepower than an S50 on 7 psi. M50 has 1mm larger valves, as well as more s/c friendly cams, double valve springs stock, OBDI manifold, etc. The M50 non tu made 287hp while the S50 made 281 (on 1 more psi, 7). So, that was on 6 psi, add another half and I find it quite achievable to obstain ~295 - 300hp.

[stx133]

ASA Based charger.... is it a centrifugal type or a roots type, why.....
i am looking at the potential of a whipple http://www.whipplesuperchargers.com/content.asp?PageID=68
looks pretty convincing. do you agree?

[pundit]

What an awesome picture! I have been tossing around the idea that we should do a custom e34 calendar for 2006 with pictures of our cars. If we did it, I think that picture should be the cover shot.


I reckon this should be the cover shot! ;)

http://clients.net2000.com.au/~rowmat/BMW/blowerthru.jpg

Who's the guy with the tripod? :D

[emw525E34]

I said "only" 6.5psi because Dinan's running ~6psi puts out 102hp on an s50. That constitutes to about 300 rwhp on an engine that is already 50hp more than yours.

What do you mean by "corrected" on the dyno runs?

I think 300 hp is way optimistic. 260-270 would be about the right mark for 6.5 PSI. What boost controller are you using ?.

[brodee]

I don't really want to get in the arguments of why or how, but there have been dynos compared. On bimmerforums, the M50 nontu @ 6 psi made 6 more horsepower than an S50 on 7 psi. M50 has 1mm larger valves, as well as more s/c friendly cams, double valve springs stock, OBDI manifold, etc. The M50 non tu made 287hp while the S50 made 281 (on 1 more psi, 7). So, that was on 6 psi, add another half and I find it quite achievable to obstain ~295 - 300hp.

Jon, I wasn't trying to argue at all. I really don't know a lot about superchargers on these cars, that's why I was asking. I just didn't understand how you could get that much out of it. I'm looking forward to you getting it all finished and running a few dyno passes to see what it can do. I have a non-tu M50 so what you posted makes me optimistic.

[Jon K]

I think 300 hp is way optimistic. 260-270 would be about the right mark for 6.5 PSI. What boost controller are you using ?.


Please do not say that you think close to 300hp is "way optimistic" and then ask what boost controller I am using. Superchargers do not have boost controllers. They have pulleys, and when you make the pulley smaller, the boost goes up.

[Jon K]

Jon, I wasn't trying to argue at all. I really don't know a lot about superchargers on these cars, that's why I was asking. I just didn't understand how you could get that much out of it. I'm looking forward to you getting it all finished and running a few dyno passes to see what it can do. I have a non-tu M50 so what you posted makes me optimistic.


Its ok Brodee, it just gets frustrating because I've researched everything and know people with M50 non vanos and they're dyno'ing such numbers.

[brodee]

Roughly 290 - 300 whp, or about 315 - 325 crank.

To get 300hp at the wheels you would need 366hp at the crank figuring on 18% driveline loss. 325 crank hp will net you about 266 at the wheels.

[bahnstormer]

6.5psi is a lot of boost for a motor with the m50's compression which is 10, or even 10.5 to 1...

i always figured 15% for rwd and 25% for awd ... re drivetrain loss

[MarkD]

Its ok Brodee, it just gets frustrating because I've researched everything and know people with M50 non vanos and they're dyno'ing such numbers.

I would have guessed more like 270 hp at the crank. I assume you changed the injectors and DME software also.

MarkD

[bahnstormer]

hes got big injectors but stock DME for now he's going with piggyback later i think

[Jon K]

I would have guessed more like 270 hp at the crank. I assume you changed the injectors and DME software also.

MarkD

I am looking into Perfect Power SMT6 piggyback to control ignition and timing, but I am also thinking about talking with you Mark. I am going to try and run the 30# bosch high imp. injectors.... could you write a chip?

[MarkD]

I am looking into Perfect Power SMT6 piggyback to control ignition and timing, but I am also thinking about talking with you Mark. I am going to try and run the 30# bosch high imp. injectors.... could you write a chip?

I should be able to, but it would require dyno tuning and I know you are not near Toronto. I'd also recommend installing a MAF. I have a Siemens MAF from a 330i that I am planning to use on an M20 turbo but it probably won't be big enough for your motor. (I'll have to see what will work for it)

What injectors are in there now? You can send me an email with the answer if you like.

Mark

[stx133]

Tech Info!!!
some of you guys would apperciate a little info on supercharging. here are a couple of links http://www.automotive.eaton.com/product/engine_controls/superchargers/M90.asp

http://www.capa.com.au/eaton.htm

http://www.whipplesuperchargers.com/content.asp?PageID=68

With a little info and reading you can begin to understand that there is a lot more to determining power output than just the PSI of the inlet. correct sizing of the unit, speeds and temperatures, as well as the style of the blower can have a large effect on the final power output.

I am looking at supercharging my 540 in the future, looking to put 400hp+ at the fly wheel for stage one (no engine rebuild) and then looking to high 400s after a rebuild in the future. research can make you a lot of 'free' horsepower when you comapre different units and their opperation. it is all a case of priorities. where and when do you want the power.

After owning and building a 12 sec 1/4 mile Turbo Rotary street car that was doing 1000+ km/week on LPG (liquid petrolium gas) and costing $40 a week to run, the beamer is a luxury that is a project waiting to happen.

[tnt525i]

hey jon, im thinking of doing this as well,, im trying to decide "turbo or s/c" i have a bit of experience with turbos in the past, as for the charger you used, was it specifically for the m50? or did you custom build the bracket to mount it?

[Jeff N.]

cool stuff Jon...hang in there.


Hey guys, spent this weekend rushing around getting my forced induction setup done. Here it is. I am not boosting it yet as I need a better idler pulley. I also haven't picked which belt I am going to use yet... since I am swapping out a different diameter idler pulley. But here she is installed and in all her glory!

http://e34.digital7.com/blowerthru.jpg

[stx133]

The Subaru WRX with 155 kw motor puts 95kw to the wheels or htere abouts on a 4wd dyno, (i used to be a turbo 4 kind of driver) that is more than 35% loss.

[MTRIPLE]

I hope you dont take this the wrong way, but.... you are not going to reach 300rwhp on that setup, especially with the stock DME. You may have a chance with a piggyback setup, but I would be very suprised...

Just a suggestion, post up dyno's before you make these claims or predictions and save yourself the headache of people doubting you... ;)

Congrats on putting it together yourself, that is no small feat!


BTW, what is your flexible intake tube made out of, it looks like it will blow up like a balloon under boost.

[632 Regal]

this is definetly good stuff!

Congrats Jon, hope she sets up flawlessly.

[Jon K]

I hope you dont take this the wrong way, but.... you are not going to reach 300rwhp on that setup, especially with the stock DME. You may have a chance with a piggyback setup, but I would be very suprised...

Just a suggestion, post up dyno's before you make these claims or predictions and save yourself the headache of people doubting you... ;)

Congrats on putting it together yourself, that is no small feat!


BTW, what is your flexible intake tube made out of, it looks like it will blow up like a balloon under boost.


With this setup I will 100% make 300 hp once done. I have yet to contact Mark D about a chip. Right now I am looking at Perfect Power SMT6 with MegaSquirt I V.3 with 30# injectors and a LC-1 wideband controller. I thought you were supposedly real knowledgeable about these things... why on EARTH would an "intake" tube blow up like a baloon? It's vacuum sir ;) Key word... "intake".

[niall]

why on EARTH would an "intake" tube blow up like a baloon? It's vacuum sir Key word... "intake".


thats not true john. YOu shouldnt get smart when you are only
halfway right. the only reason that pipe wont "blow up like a baloon"
is that atmospheric pressure is aprox. 15psi, and you will only have 6psi,
atmospheric pressure acting on that hose is trying to squash it, anything
more than 15psi of forced air will expand that hose, also, there is no such thing
as "vacum" its a missused and miss interpreted word, there is only ever pressure
difference, pressure difference in the cylinder when the piston moves down is different
to the pressure in the intake manifold. that is what people describe as "vacum" also under full throttle conditions "vacum" reaches zero,

[MTRIPLE]

With this setup I will 100% make 300 hp once done. I have yet to contact Mark D about a chip. Right now I am looking at Perfect Power SMT6 with MegaSquirt I V.3 with 30# injectors and a LC-1 wideband controller. I thought you were supposedly real knowledgeable about these things... why on EARTH would an "intake" tube blow up like a baloon? It's vacuum sir ;) Key word... "intake".


Quoted for permanancy to show your lack of knowledge.....


I dont think you get it, I have been nothing but courteous to you, but you seem to think you know it all based on your "research". I certainly dont claim to know it all, BUT, I have been down this path before and know a thing or two. You would be wise to show a little more courtesy(as I have shown you) and reserve your wise-ass comments for yourself. I give you credit for taking on such a project by yourself...


When I made the jump to 11psi on my car I actually had issues with the hose clamp on the intake bellow(right in front of the intake) because it could'nt hold the increased POSITIVE pressure(BOOST) that the supercharger is creating. I had to go to a stronger hose clamp.

Now looking at your picture, it looks like you are using the "flexible pipe" AFTER the compressor. Is this true? If it is, you are in for a little suprise.

If it's on the intake side of the compressor, than you can expect just the opposite. As the compressor starts to build boost, than I would be willing to wager that it will start to collapse.

But good luck with your little project, you are going to need it.

BTW, where is your bypass or diverter valve, hopefully its there and I'm just not seeing it.

[emw525E34]

Well, let us know the dyno figures once its done. A fair way to go yet considering the rest of the tuning needed. Good luck!.

[Jon K]

Quoted for permanancy to show your lack of knowledge.....


I dont think you get it, I have been nothing but courteous to you, but you seem to think you know it all based on your "research". I certainly dont claim to know it all, BUT, I have been down this path before and know a thing or two. You would be wise to show a little more courtesy(as I have shown you) and reserve your wise-ass comments for yourself. I give you credit for taking on such a project by yourself...


When I made the jump to 11psi on my car I actually had issues with the hose clamp on the intake bellow(right in front of the intake) because it could'nt hold the increased POSITIVE pressure(BOOST) that the supercharger is creating. I had to go to a stronger hose clamp.

Now looking at your picture, it looks like you are using the "flexible pipe" AFTER the compressor. Is this true? If it is, you are in for a little suprise.

If it's on the intake side of the compressor, than you can expect just the opposite. As the compressor starts to build boost, than I would be willing to wager that it will start to collapse.

But good luck with your little project, you are going to need it.

BTW, where is your bypass or diverter valve, hopefully its there and I'm just not seeing it.



Look carefully and not that the MAF is in line with the TB. It is clearly not hooked up to the blower in that picture. Yes I have a diverter valve. Yes I have proper plumbing. I have 4 ply silicone from ATP Turbo coming Sept 6. Do you honestly think that I would have spent the money i did on a supercharger and stuck a "flex hose" to the compressor outlet?

[MTRIPLE]

Look carefully and not that the MAF is in line with the TB. It is clearly not hooked up to the blower in that picture. Yes I have a diverter valve. Yes I have proper plumbing. I have 4 ply silicone from ATP Turbo coming Sept 6. Do you honestly think that I would have spent the money i did on a supercharger and stuck a "flex hose" to the compressor outlet?

Looking at that picture, yes. Its very hard to discern where the plumbing is entering or exiting the compressor. Looking at that picture, it looks as if the flexible tubing is hooked to the MAF, and then connected to the intake bellow.

Good luck with the flex hose on the inlet, that's a problem waiting to happen. I'm going to remain quiet now as I think its pointless to carry on the tone that you have chosen for this conversation. Take a deep breath, relax, and dont be so confrontational.

Good luck and I'm anxious to see the dyno results. :)

[brodee]

If I am correct the flex hose is just temporary until the blower is actually online at which point it will be replaced with the ATP tubing he has coming. Is this correct Jon?

[632 Regal]

flex tube or no flex tube I still want a ride in that thing when it's done.

:D

[Bellicose Right Winger]

Jon K,
We're all fascinated by your car, your project and your enthusiasm. Unfortunately the thermodynamics say you won't make 300HP at the flywheel. The problem isn't fuel, you're short air.
A stock, normally aspirated M50 engine makes 189HP @70F with an intake manifold pressure of 14.7 PSIA. Supercharger adds 6.5 psi to make this 21.2 PSIA. Based on this increase in air flow, you should expect 189*21.2/14.7 or 272HP, corrected to 70F at the flywheel.

Now if you can wind this blower up to 8.7 psi, and provide all the required fuel......

So where do we sign up for rides?

Paul Shovestul




With this setup I will 100% make 300 hp once done. I have yet to contact Mark D about a chip. Right now I am looking at Perfect Power SMT6 with MegaSquirt I V.3 with 30# injectors and a LC-1 wideband controller. I thought you were supposedly real knowledgeable about these things... why on EARTH would an "intake" tube blow up like a baloon? It's vacuum sir ;) Key word... "intake".

[93-525i]

Look carefully and not that the MAF is in line with the TB. It is clearly not hooked up to the blower in that picture. Yes I have a diverter valve. Yes I have proper plumbing. I have 4 ply silicone from ATP Turbo coming Sept 6. Do you honestly think that I would have spent the money i did on a supercharger and stuck a "flex hose" to the compressor outlet?


I was wondering how much this setup is going to run you total? I'm looking into the same for my 93 525 and want to know the cost to fab my own vs going through VF-Engineering who has a kit that would work. Check out the e-mail below that I received upon my product request for the e34.

"Thank you for contacting us regarding the BMW 525i Supercharger System for
the E34 Chassis. We have not fitted the system to this application yet, but
as you already know it is a very similar application to the 94-95 325i
models which we do offer the supercharger system for. Where are you
located, as we may be able to use your car in-house (California) for product
fittment verification?"

[Jon K]

MTriple, I don't know what issues you've had with your Dinan setup, but I have never heard of issues on the vacuum side of the blower. And trust me, you definitely do not want boost comign out that end, because your crank case ventilation tube is there, so if you were "Billowing" the intake tube on the suckign side of the blower you were also pressurizing your crank case ventilation system.

As for the tube in this setup... it's not like I just found a tube and stuck it on. I've been in close contact with ASA directly. Here is their kit for the E46 in germany.

http://www.blowne46.com/images/tm17sc.JPG


Notice distinct flex tube. The one I have is slightly more rigid than theirs. If you forsee this as a problem, call Alpina and complain.

[pmlmotorsports]

Ya gotta love how some people have mastered the english language................of course I am not one of them, yet to hear them use such lovely words in reply to his fellow man.......well it's just touching. Like Jeff said, this is good stuff !!!!

PS:
I think we should have an auction. Each member enters a guess as to the Horsepower Jon's car puts out on the Dyno.......the guess costs $5.00 payable to the Allen S Foundation........if Jon's car reaches 300rwhp as he claims it will, all of us will owe him an apology of Biblicle proportions, BUT IF IT DOESN'T Jon sends the correct "guess" $100.00 (if multiple winners $100 is equally divided) , then Jon uses his mastery of the English language to aplogize to the members he seems to have offended.

[brodee]

I think we should have an auction. Each member enters a guess as to the Horsepower Jon's car puts out on the Dyno.......the guess costs $5.00 payable to the Allen S Foundation........if Jon's car reaches 300rwhp as he claims it will, all of us will owe him an apology of Biblicle proportions, BUT IF IT DOESN'T Jon sends the correct "guess" $100.00 (if multiple winners $100 is equally divided) , then Jon uses his mastery of the English language to aplogize to the members he seems to have offended.

That's a pool, not an auction :D

[Jon K]

That's a pool, not an auction :D

Not only that, but seeing as I've already paid $5200+ to make this happen, there's no way in hell I am paying anyone $100.

Or maybe I misread this. Either way, I'd need to shell out for dyno time, and I am not ready for that.

[stx133]

you're going to try and 'tune' this potential weapon without a dyno run? good luck..

[NickM535]

Jon, your car is beautiful and you have done some good work.
i think you need to put it on the dyno ASAP to stop all this arguing and the critics telling you that you don't know what you have power wise in a car that you own and drive.

What was the reason for going supercharger and not a turbo???

Top Work...Gold

[NAT9566]

cheers jon, wunderbar.... alpina'd be proud... :) and tell me are twin turbos better for m20 engines? i want 260 bhp only... is it possible? small turbo and a bigger one.. sequential turbos....

[Jon K]

you're going to try and 'tune' this potential weapon without a dyno run? good luck..


No I am not trying to "tune" it without a dyno. I am going to run it without a dyno. I have a wideband O2 sensor, adjustable FMU w/ 30# injectors. I want to get it running in a safe area of AFR. I only drive the car once a week, I am not looking to drop another $300 with AFR tuning at a dyno yet because I am going to be doine MegaSquirt fuel injection management.

[Jon K]

Jon, your car is beautiful and you have done some good work.
i think you need to put it on the dyno ASAP to stop all this arguing and the critics telling you that you don't know what you have power wise in a car that you own and drive.

What was the reason for going supercharger and not a turbo???

Top Work...Gold


I was originally going to go turbo. I had two Garrett T-25 turbo chargers and Pat P from florida (when he was around) was going to help me with a manifold. The issues began to set in when I realized that I wouldn't be able to 1/2 finish the car and still make it to and from school w/o another daily. For that reason, I sold the twin turbo setup (2 turbos, FMIC, oil lines, etc) to a guy with an E30 (dunno if he used them or not) and bought the TM-12 Kompressor from ASA Germany. The reason I went with supercharging is because the power delivery is much more linear. That means its easier to tune, it also isn't going to be risk of boost creeping and surging, so I won't ever over-boost the motor. I have driven my buddies '03 GTI VR6 with a VF Engineering Stage 1 compressor setup and I really liked how it felt. My friend has an AA S/C E36 M3 that felt identical, and that's the kind of power-on I like - smoothe and linear. Once after christmas time and I've got the MS fuel management in along with an AFC-II or SMT6 ignition/timing management controller, I will get it tuned up for real and I wouldn't doubt seeing 300hp out of it.

[infinity5]

yes! smooth linear power! Superchargers for all! :)