Failed Project

[PatrickPGH]

So I set out to replace almost my entire front suspension this weekend, shocks, upper and lower control arms, tie rod ends plus brake rotors and pads. Came to a halt when I was unable to remove 3 of the 6 bolts in the strut assembly. I hit them all with the impact wrench, soaked em in PB Blaster overnight and tried again the next morning. Wouldn't budge. I ended up just replacing the rotors and pads. An improvement for sure but not close to what I was hoping to accomplish. My thoughts are to now give up and have a mechanic do the rest or see if one will be able to break the bolts and I'll take it from there.

No real question here, just needed to admit defeat I guess.

Patrick

[Scott H]

Are you talking about the 19mm bolts on the bottom of the steering knuckle? You need a long breaker bar and pipe extension to achieve our friend LEVERAGE. They will slowly turn loose for you. Once you break them loose, use the impact to finish removing them.


So I set out to replace almost my entire front suspension this weekend, shocks, upper and lower control arms, tie rod ends plus brake rotors and pads. Came to a halt when I was unable to remove 3 of the 6 bolts in the strut assembly. I hit them all with the impact wrench, soaked em in PB Blaster overnight and tried again the next morning. Wouldn't budge. I ended up just replacing the rotors and pads. An improvement for sure but not close to what I was hoping to accomplish. My thoughts are to now give up and have a mechanic do the rest or see if one will be able to break the bolts and I'll take it from there.

No real question here, just needed to admit defeat I guess.

Patrick

[SRR2]

I wonder if your impact wrench isn't up to the job. A good I-R tool can produce 700 lb-ft of torque, which is going to be difficult to achieve with a breaker bar. I had one of those $29 specials for a while before it dawned on me that it was just not performing as well as I needed. Spent the bucks for a quality tool and have been completely satisfied. I have yet to run into anything that wouldn't either come apart, either unscrewing or by shattering the bolt. Then there's always high-speed diamond cutters.

[632 Regal]

I also used a breaker bar, they are pretty tight and was afraid the impact would just hack up the heads of the bolts.

[Rigmaster]

Another vote for our friend, Mr. Leverage. You'd be surprised how well the breaker bar/cheater pipe trick will work, especially when compared to a (cheap) air impact wrench.


Bret.

[Scott H]

Even a high volume dual hammer impact gun can pound the piss out of the head if it's on there really tight or if you don't have the socket squarely on the head.

I have used thick steel extension bars and a long breaker bar totalling about 3'. If I can get 200lbs of force on that bar, that is 600lb ft I am cranking which is enough to get a lot of things loose.

On average it is just easier and cheaper to buy a bar and find/buy some strong pipe than it is to make sure you have an air compressor and dual hammer impact gun unless you are going to use these tools often.


I also used a breaker bar, they are pretty tight and was afraid the impact would just hack up the heads of the bolts.

[PatrickPGH]

I tried the breaker bar but the problem I ran into was somehow keeping the socket on the bolt while exerting a force on the bar. I found that if I deviated from level the socket would slip off the bolt. Especially hard since gravity was working against my helper and I.

Here's a thought; can I remove the upper and lower control arms and the tie rod end from the car and pull the whole strut/spring assembly off? I'd then be able to turn it over and gain access to the bolts. Would this maybe work?

Patrick


Even a high volume dual hammer impact gun can pound the piss out of the head if it's on there really tight or if you don't have the socket squarely on the head.

I have used thick steel extension bars and a long breaker bar totalling about 3'. If I can get 200lbs of force on that bar, that is 600lb ft I am cranking which is enough to get a lot of things loose.

On average it is just easier and cheaper to buy a bar and find/buy some strong pipe than it is to make sure you have an air compressor and dual hammer impact gun unless you are going to use these tools often.

[TheGeak]

I tried the breaker-bar with a "cheater pipe"....all it did to mine was to break the end of a 1/2" breaker bar (Craftsman). I think the whole assembly actually let out an evil laugh when that happened.

[Scott H]

I know what you mean when you describe the socket falling off, but if you get the socket on there and put some tension on the breaker bar, you should be able to add your cheater bar and then work your hands to the end of your new extension. If you are wrenching at the same pitch that the bolt is at, you should be able to get a good crank without it slipping off.

Trying to detach everything and drop it from the car as one unit is going to be a mighty heavy and clumsy approach.......I personally wouldn't do it.


I tried the breaker bar but the problem I ran into was somehow keeping the socket on the bolt while exerting a force on the bar. I found that if I deviated from level the socket would slip off the bolt. Especially hard since gravity was working against my helper and I.
Patrick

[Jeff N.]

Use a 6pt socket and a breaker bar. Get some beefy 1/2" stuff. Problems keeping the socket on sound like either a 12 point, or a deep, or with an extension. You shouldn't need any of those things to crack them. Pull the rotor if you need to to extra room.

These are the 3 19mm bolts where the base of the strut arm attachs to the steering knuckle, right?

I have one of these and it's been able to crack anything and everything.


http://content.sears.com/data/product_images/009/44201/00944201000-dlv.jpg

[Bill R.]

break on a regular basis, they shear right where the pivot is....The craftsmen 1/2 ratchet will actually take more abuse.. thats what i use on the strut bolts, that and a 18 inch piece of pipe that slips about 6 inches down the ratchet handle.. with a 6 point impact socket it doesn't slip or round things off... I am wondering if Pat was tightening rather than loosening, Because i don't find these bolts to be a big deal like some of the other bolts... If all else fails put the socket ,ratchet and pipe on the bolt an then brace yourself against the car somewhere and push with your foot on the pipe... When i'm doing honda cv halfshafts the craftsmen breaker bar will shear the pivots like butter but the ratchet will do 2 or 3 axles before it breaks the gears..or shears the square drive off...




Use a 6pt socket and a breaker bar. Get some beefy 1/2" stuff. Problems keeping the socket on sound like either a 12 point, or a deep, or with an extension. You shouldn't need any of those things to crack them. Pull the rotor if you need to to extra room.

These are the 3 19mm bolts where the base of the strut arm attachs to the steering knuckle, right?

I have one of these and it's been able to crack anything and everything.


http://content.sears.com/data/product_images/009/44201/00944201000-dlv.jpg

[Scott H]

slipping the pipe over a significant part of the breaker bar will help a lot. I have noticed that the 1/2" ratchet will take a lot of abuse, but so far my breaker bar has not failed me.



.....18 inch piece of pipe that slips about 6 inches down the ratchet handle.. with a 6 point impact socket it doesn't slip or round things off...

[Lennyz525i]

I also used a breaker bar, they are pretty tight and was afraid the impact would just hack up the heads of the bolts.

That's exactly what happened to me, to one of the bolts
:(

[Kalevera]

IF it's the three 19mm bolts on the bottom of the steering plate, as many have suggested....some pointers when DIYing it:

1) It helps to have a good angle on the bolt. This requires turning the steering wheel throughout the process. Also, make sure the front of the car is high enough in the air to get underneath the bolts.

2) Use a well made 6 point deep impact socket. When I did this the second time around, on my driveway on a cold (for North Carolina) night in the middle of February at about 11pm, I discovered that 1/2" tools or a good impact are necessary if they've been in there a while. I didn't have any 1/2" stuff at the time, so I put the car back together and drove it to my buddy's garage (where I'd impacted the damn thing in to begin with), where it came out in two seconds. The fun of that trip was having one side with the new suspension on and the other with the old :)

Read my writeup if you haven't done so already:

http://www.bmw4life.com/suspensionLowellFA.htm

...it might help you out.


best, whit

[Alexlind123]

f... I am wondering if Pat was tightening rather than loosening

Righty tighty, Lefty loosy. :D

[mattyb]

if you dont have the toys make em. my father in law would get the biggest heaviest bar possible and weld the bloody socket on the end just to crack some thing. if you havent got a welder take it to the local workshop and get them to do it. it would be 5 minutes and about 5 bucks then youve go the damn tool for life. i did this with engine mount tool 17mm open spanner. grind and cut the bastard till it fits and works other wise youll go nuts and end up paying. BMW4LIFE needs TOOLS for life!

[JAlfredPrufrock]

Voted you're not trying hard enough.

[Anthony (M5 in Calgary)]

If you are using hand tools and long breaker bars, an ordinary (but high quality) 6 point socket or deep socket is what you want.

Impact sockets will break under high continuous torque and ordinary sockets will break if you use them with an impact wrench.

I have an old 16" breaker bar which was bent past 45 degrees a couple of times when I had 5' of pipe on the handle working on subframe bolts from a '71 2002. It sprang back straight and it is still used today. Thorsen tools.

[Bill R.]

double or triple the wall thickness that my standard snap on 1/2 drive 6 point sockets do. I can break them fairly easily whereas the extra thickness on the deep impacts with industrial finish and the heat treat enable them to take torque loads far in excess of what i can get on the standard socket...For example the honda cv axles are torqued so tight that the only way i can get them off is to use a 32mm or 36mm impact socket with an 8 foot cheater bar on the end and pulling with most of my weight (205lbs) I didn't have to snap very many standard sockets to determine that the impact sockets were the answer..





If you are using hand tools and long breaker bars, an ordinary (but high quality) 6 point socket or deep socket is what you want.

Impact sockets will break under high continuous torque and ordinary sockets will break if you use them with an impact wrench.

I have an old 16" breaker bar which was bent past 45 degrees a couple of times when I had 5' of pipe on the handle working on subframe bolts from a '71 2002. It sprang back straight and it is still used today. Thorsen tools.

[pyro]

i feel stupid now... i just got a socket on there and grabed the cross member and kicked it lose... (a firend held the socket on the knuckle)

[uscharalph]

i feel stupid now... i just got a socket on there and grabed the cross member and kicked it lose... (a firend held the socket on the knuckle)
You might feel stupid, but hey it's loose.

[Road_Carver]

Well, maybe you lost the battle, but your winning the war!!

:)

[Anthony (M5 in Calgary)]

double or triple the wall thickness that my standard snap on 1/2 drive 6 point sockets do. I can break them fairly easily whereas the extra thickness on the deep impacts with industrial finish and the heat treat enable them to take torque loads far in excess of what i can get on the standard socket...For example the honda cv axles are torqued so tight that the only way i can get them off is to use a 32mm or 36mm impact socket with an 8 foot cheater bar on the end and pulling with most of my weight (205lbs) I didn't have to snap very many standard sockets to determine that the impact sockets were the answer..

The reason for my message:

When I first got my 535 I took it to a tire shop to have the tires changed. One of the rear lug nuts was on so tight the tire jockey couldn't get it off with his professional impact wrench despite repeated attempts and letting the compressor cycle. He then put the 17mm impact socket on a 24" breaker with a cheater pipe and promptly broke the socket. He put another impact socket on and broke it too. When he went back to the mechanic for a third socket, the mechanic came out swearing a blue streak about not using impact sockets with hand tools as they are made softer for a reason. The mechanic then put on a standard chrome socket with the same bar and pipe and then the bolt came off.

I too have used 36mm impact sockets with a breaker bar (320i rear hub) without issue.

[Bill R.]

the first that i know of to require standards for the heatreat on impact sockets , punches chisels etc.. This was done to ensure that they don't shatter on impact... with an air impact wrench you can shatter a hardened tool, so the impact sockets are made with a much thicker wall and not hardened to such a degree as conventional sockets. But they are still extremely hard and tough as well... as opposed to brittle like some of the chrome plated sockets. Impact sockets have an industrial oxide finish on them usually because since they aren't hardened as much they will flex and distort some under extreme loads, if they were chrome plated it would crack and cause the chrome to peel... After a long life and much impact use an impact socket will tend to wallow the clean cut edges on the inside of the socket that grip the bolt head, this is due to the softness. I personally have never broken a snap on impact socket, now i've worn a few out but they have never broken. As far as Osha standards for heat treat, it was done to prevent chisels,punches and impact sockets from shattering under load such as an impact wrench or hitting the chisel with a hammer.. I had some older bluepoint chisels and punches that i had gotten before this Osha standard took effect. (bluepoint is snapon) after i broke or damaged them the replacement chisels were much softer and wouldn't hold an edge like the old ones did.. Same think with punches... All the mechanics bitched and carped about this and tryed not to break any more of our older tools that were a harder grade of steel..





The reason for my message:

When I first got my 535 I took it to a tire shop to have the tires changed. One of the rear lug nuts was on so tight the tire jockey couldn't get it off with his professional impact wrench despite repeated attempts and letting the compressor cycle. He then put the 17mm impact socket on a 24" breaker with a cheater pipe and promptly broke the socket. He put another impact socket on and broke it too. When he went back to the mechanic for a third socket, the mechanic came out swearing a blue streak about not using impact sockets with hand tools as they are made softer for a reason. The mechanic then put on a standard chrome socket with the same bar and pipe and then the bolt came off.

I too have used 36mm impact sockets with a breaker bar (320i rear hub) without issue.

[Anthony (M5 in Calgary)]

the first that i know of to require standards for the heatreat on impact sockets , punches chisels etc.. This was done to ensure that they don't shatter on impact... with an air impact wrench you can shatter a hardened tool, so the impact sockets are made with a much thicker wall and not hardened to such a degree as conventional sockets. But they are still extremely hard and tough as well... as opposed to brittle like some of the chrome plated sockets. Impact sockets have an industrial oxide finish on them usually because since they aren't hardened as much they will flex and distort some under extreme loads, if they were chrome plated it would crack and cause the chrome to peel... After a long life and much impact use an impact socket will tend to wallow the clean cut edges on the inside of the socket that grip the bolt head, this is due to the softness. I personally have never broken a snap on impact socket, now i've worn a few out but they have never broken. As far as Osha standards for heat treat, it was done to prevent chisels,punches and impact sockets from shattering under load such as an impact wrench or hitting the chisel with a hammer.. I had some older bluepoint chisels and punches that i had gotten before this Osha standard took effect. (bluepoint is snapon) after i broke or damaged them the replacement chisels were much softer and wouldn't hold an edge like the old ones did.. Same think with punches... All the mechanics bitched and carped about this and tryed not to break any more of our older tools that were a harder grade of steel..

Well it was 7 years ago, but that's what happened.