Why it's important to use the CORRECT FLUIDS!

[Kalevera]

Guys...

I've been yammering away on this topic for a while now. Recently, I've heard or seen a lot of instances wherein the wrong fluid was used for a specific application. Some are just plain dumb ass mistakes, like the guy who put ATF in his brake reservoir (thereby blowing out all of the seals and requiring a total replacement).

I saw this on a M50 E34 today. The car is physically presentable, even at 230k. But neglect and time have resulted in it needing about $3000 worth of work. Note the (visible) brand new transmission.

http://www.bimmer.info/~lowell/ps1.jpg

http://www.bimmer.info/~lowell/ps2.jpg

http://www.bimmer.info/~lowell/ps3.jpg


What started out as (probably) a benign PS leak turned into a hellish nightmare. Despite the legible "ATF ONLY" sticker on the PS fluid reservoir, the car received something else. The evidence was in the trunk -- a gallon jug of generic "Power Steering Fluid, for all cars!"

Without even considering the chemical composition: the viscosity is much lower than ATF. This stuff has probably blown every seal and every hose in the system. Notice the location of the leaks.

Moral of the story: use the correct fluid! Don't use cheap, offbrand stuff unless you're willing to assume the risk!


best, whit

[632 Regal]

so what your trying to tell us is, looking under our cars it shouldnt look like them pictures...or am I reading it wrong?

[genphreak]

That's filthy Whit. It'd break my heart to have your job.

I'd probably have to start an orphanage for neglected and abused e34s...

[ryan roopnarine]

i hate to admit it, but my front oil sump looks like that, as i let the valve cover gasket go too long (and i drive 700-1k miles per week, which, at that mileage, even if the leak is small it pumps substantial amounts of oil out), and i have an iddy biddy PS hoseclamp leak. but the light coating of "rustproofing" oil on my bottom comes nowhere near looking that bad. i'd put the thing in mothballs and go over the bottom with a rag and diesel if it were 1/8th that bad.

[liquidtiger720]

Honestly...I have no clue where the oil on mine is coming from. Take a look.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v457/liquidtiger720/8833c8b7.jpg

[RobPatt]

...all the filth musta left most of our cars and !#$%^& POOF !!!! went to that guys! :-)

[Kalevera]

Josh, is it engine oil or ATF?

I fixed someone else's hacked pan gasket job last week. There's an O ring on the dipstick tube that can get pinched or cut and leak. It looks like yours is coming from the same vicinity (could also be the seal in the sending unit, but I think it's the O ring -- you may also need a pan gasket). The procedure is relatively simple: pull the dipstick tube and check the O ring. When installing a new one, seat it on the TUBE first! Lube the tube (ha ha) with some oil. It will seat with a "thunk". Clean up any oil residue with brake clean, drive it and see if it still leaks.


Nick -- I can't tell if you're being facetious or not ;)

best, whit

[shogun]

I had a similar problem with my car. While I was on an overseas business trip my wife went to a Esso gas station with a puncture. As she had some business to do, she left the car there.
Got a phone call that they had checked the car and they found out that:
-engine oil very dirty, needs immy flushing and replacement
-transoil very dirty and low and needs immy replacement
-drive shafts leaking, need replacement
-aircon low, needs refill
-coolant very rusty, needs flushing and relacement

Finally the invoice ended up at almost 2000 ! $

When I came back I checked that.
Wrong engine oil (they even did a flushing of engine without changing the filter which they did not have)
wrong trans oil
wrong AC refridgerant (R134a mixture instead of R12 which I still use)
More cans charged than goes into a full empty system
(actually it was running fine)
coolant wrong, not BMW approved
and now the final thing: I was sure that the shaft sealings did not leak and I had pics):
they installed rubber mufflers from a Mazda and fixed it with some clamps (BMW is one piece with 2 metal plates each side) :(
http://www.leder-wagner.de/temp/Mail0008.jpg

Their problem was, that they did it on the car of THE E 32 GURU :D

Alarmed my friends in Germany. They called ZF for evidence that the oil is wrong. Alarmed the E32 Club Japan to help. They checked other Esso stations what they would charge for a refill of refridgerant etc.
Then my wife called the manager of this franchise office of Esso. Asked for a meeting.
When we came there, he was alone with no paper at hand, just thinking that we wanted discount.
We came with Bentley Repair Manual, approved ZF oil list, pics from BMW service which we asked to check the car (coolant was even too low in mixture. Water makes money) and many other documents.
Before we started the discussions we asked if we could record the discussions on tape. O.K.
We never asked for discount or something, only showed evidence. Even the old sealing from the drive shaft I had as evidence, no oil moisture outside at all.
To make the story short:
refunded the whole 2000 $.
Gave us a car free of charge for one week.
Paid 1.200 $ to BMW to replace all liquids and drive shaft seals.
We got a letter of guarantee from them to pay for all cost related to damages occuring within the next 3 months on the trans, no matter if it is from the age of the trans or whatever, as it is difficult to prove anyway and we want to avoid arguing.
Tell you want: now I have a leak on the trans between engine and trans. In case of the V12 the trans has to come out and must be repaired.
Called Esso, they called BMW to confirm the findings.
Next week the car goes to BMW for repair of the trans. Will cost them another 1.500 $ at least.
An expensive lesson they learned from trying to rip people off. A 'normal' customer without knowledge would have never complained and noticed.
4.700 $!

[billb]

http://www.bimmer.info/bmw/fgump/oilpan.jpg

[Kalevera]

Jeeze, Erich...I'm sorry to hear that you had to go through all of that. Perhaps next time, the wife should let them fix the tire and authorize nothing else. Stupid service stations...they probably saw that it was a BMW, being driven by a woman, and that got them trolling for money.


best, whit

[Jeff N.]

Hmmm. Maybe this is why my P/S pump groans now. Mahtinator put ps fluid in the unit, not ATF.

[shogun]

whit,
yes, a women, a big BMW = easy money to earn they thought.
And even not only with women. Anybody else with no or little knowledge would have appreciated their thorough checking and findings on the car to prevent more damage.
"Just for your info mam, the oil in... very bad... could cause big damage if you drive on.... Lucky that we found out....
Think about what your husband tells you when the engine...."

Yeahh, they know how it works, and probably in more than 80% it works.
They only cannot do it with poeple like us, who know better than they know.
For example with the A/C refridgerant: they said no problem, replacement is o.k. for any A/C. I showed them the serial numbers of the compressors which are not compatible. They got such big eyes when we submitted all the documentation.
Forgot to tell that my my friend Mitsu/nick: Take, the master technician of the E32 Club Japan also joined the discussions. We usually work together on our cars.

That is why we were successful. We prepared ourselves with documents, pictures, lists from ZF, statement from BMW. Discussed before how to start the discussions. Ven had taken an oil sample from my trans and the trans my my friends car. One was whitish, the other red.
Then we went there. He was not prepared at all, just expected a stupid customer claiming about the high cost and knowing nothing.
That is like in a court case, evidence and preparation is all.
If we would have come empty handed, we would have left empty handed.

He even came later to our home with a cake (typical way in Japan to say sorry) and appologized and told us that they will modify the training of their people etc etc.

On this occassion also thanks to my friends in Germany for their support, calling ZF and other companies to check.

[uscharalph]

http://www.bimmer.info/bmw/fgump/oilpan.jpg
Nice. Something to shoot for!

[mattyb]

Evidence and preparation says it all!

[Interceptor]

That is why we were successful. We prepared ourselves with documents, pictures, lists from ZF, statement from BMW. Discussed before how to start the discussions. Ven had taken an oil sample from my trans and the trans my my friends car. One was whitish, the other red.
Then we went there. He was not prepared at all, just expected a stupid customer claiming about the high cost and knowing nothing.
That is like in a court case, evidence and preparation is all.
If we would have come empty handed, we would have left empty handed.
Congratulations on defeating the villains!

Bimmer nuts - 1
Rip Offs - 0

Keep up the good work :)

[pundit]

... He even came later to our home with a cake (typical way in Japan to say sorry) and appologized and told us that they will modify the training of their people etc etc...
Aw c'mon now Shogun. That really takes the cake!! :p

[liquidtiger720]

Josh, is it engine oil or ATF?

I fixed someone else's hacked pan gasket job last week. There's an O ring on the dipstick tube that can get pinched or cut and leak. It looks like yours is coming from the same vicinity (could also be the seal in the sending unit, but I think it's the O ring -- you may also need a pan gasket). The procedure is relatively simple: pull the dipstick tube and check the O ring. When installing a new one, seat it on the TUBE first! Lube the tube (ha ha) with some oil. It will seat with a "thunk". Clean up any oil residue with brake clean, drive it and see if it still leaks.


Nick -- I can't tell if you're being facetious or not ;)

best, whit
I think some of it is ATF..my resevoir was leaking, but it's stopped (The hose came loose, I guess I pulled it to hard). The actualy oil or grime- on the lower part of the engine, I have no clue where its coming. I'll try sticking a new 0-ring in, and see if that helps.

[Robin-535im]

Unfortunately I don't think that would work in the US... pardon my hatred of the "lack of honor" here... but I bet you would have to take someone to court and force them to give you back a single penny, much less get a guarantee for future breakage as a result of their negligence.

Stories like yours are why I am terrified to take any of my cars to anyone... I'd rather buy the book, buy the tools and do it myself than risk it!

It's refreshing to see that your service stations care so much. Sounds like people in Japan are indeed conscientious and not merely driven by what they can get away with.

Good job with all the preparedness - little did they know with whom they were dealing!

[rockyfeller]

liquidtiger my long-standing leak is exactly the same....It leaks so slow, it gets all grimy and then I can't tell (or smell) what it is. It's as if it's always wet. It drips so slow so I only have a few drops on the garage floor. If I wipe then drive, it takes a long time to build up the grime again. I never bothered me much because it dosen't really hasn't posed a problem; should I be worried? What will I tell a prospective buyer one day?

[rockyfeller]

Daym, good job nabbing them. If you ask me with all the court evidence you have you could have gotten a whole new (used) E32.

[Martin in Bellevue]

http://www.bimmer.info/bmw/Martin5er/atf.jpg

Hmmm. Maybe this is why my P/S pump groans now. Mahtinator put ps fluid in the unit, not ATF.

[Lennyz525i]

My car is a greasy, oily mess underneath. Is there some way to clean it?

[Jeff N.]

.

[Kalevera]

Figure out if it's coolant, oil, ATF (unlikely), or CHF 11s (power steering). One (or both) of the two block coolant drain bolts can easily leak, especially if the crush washer wasn't replaced last time the block was flushed. M60 oil pans....well...that's another story. And some power steering issues are easy, others are difficult.


best, whit

[Kalevera]

Brake clean and a rag. But it's just going to come back if there's a leak. Cam and front main seals, not to mention the oil pan gasket, are all suspect on the M20.

best, whit

[uscharalph]

Brake clean and a rag. But it's just going to come back if there's a leak. Cam and front main seals, not to mention the oil pan gasket, are all suspect on the M20.

best, whit
My M20 was pretty dirty / gunked when I got it. It gets better an better the longer I own it. I've got a very minor oil leak from the oil pan (I think). I just switched to synthetic oil about a month ago.

[Lennyz525i]

I think I'm leaking some trans fluid. Replaced my oil pan gasket. Also leaking some coolant from the waterpump seals. Also leaking freon. It's such a dirty accumulation of leakages. I want to clean the entire area to better see exactly what is leaking from where, plus getting underneath my car is just disgusting right now.

Whit, will the brake cleaner not harm any parts or seals?

[MBXB]

Lenny,
I used full strength Simple Green, and a parts cleaning brush to get at the thick stuff, finished up with 3:1 dilution in a spray bottle and shop rags or paper towels.

[shogun]

Is in the BMW shop since wednesday. Today the called me that the trans does not come out as they cannot loosen some bolts between engine and trans. Now they pulled the whole block with the V12 and attached trans from the car.
Could separate trans outside of engine room and tomorrow engine will be installed again and then the trans repaired.
They informed ESSO that the bill will be a bit higher than estimated.
As this is a good chance to change the upper oil pan gasket (cannot be done on a V12 when installed, as 4 screws of the upper oil pan are inside the bell housing and usually the trans has to be removed to get to these screws) I asked them to do this when engine is out at my account.
I assume that I will not have the car back till wednesday next week if I am lucky.
Till then I will drive the Van provided free of charge by Esso.
Lucky, that I got a letter of guarantee for the trans for 3 months after I found out that they filled in the wrong trans oil. So the repair will be paid by them.

[632 Regal]

Them dream stories just wont fly here in the good old US. No one takes any responsibility for anything, its pass the buck down the ladder. You can chase and go in circles forever and when you finally come to the end you get nothing repaired or any money back.

[azale]

This reminds me of a situation my Pastor ran into when he was working at a GM dealership in Michigan. An older lady came in with some problem on her car and he was entering the info in the computer. He had some young tech read the mileage number by number: 4 . . . 1 . . . 3 . . . 5 . . . 3.

Since it was past the 40k mile mark it was time for some routine maintenace: oil change, trans change, new antifreeze, grease, filters, wipers, tire rotation, and check brakes and all the other vital systems. The lady okays the repairs and the shop goes at it. When the bill comes to the lady she calls her son who is just livid. He goes down to talk to my buddy and rips him up one side and down the other, "how can you take advatage of people like that" etc. etc. My buddy says it's routine maintenance for that mileage and the manager would agree. The son then says that his mom's car only has 4,000 miles!

My buddy's jaw dropped to the floor and he confirmed that fact when he looked at the car. The tech had read the 3/10 mile as just another digit.

All the work including the original problem was on the house.

[infinity5]

lol! i would hate to be that tech :)

[Kalevera]

Hey Erich -- we've replaced the upper pan gasket with the block still in the car. Trans came out, engine got jacked up. Labor intensive, but what else is new.

Sounds like the people doing the work on the car right now are clowns. Probably used an E12 on one of the top E10s at the bellhousing and stripped it out. Or does the car have actual hex bolts?

best, whit

[shogun]

EVEN with the trans inside!! I investigated that with some friends in Germany and they usually do it that way. But the is not the official way from BMW.
I don't mind as long as I do not have to pay. I informed Ron in USA about this and he made a nice instruction when he recently changed his one.
You need to make 2 holes in the bell housing:
Here are the pictures of the upper oil pan gasket repair ('89 750iL). I won't go into the step by step. Hopefully the pictures will be all you need. The key is the engine has to be supported from above.

Good luck.

Paparon
http://www.bimmerboard.com/members/paparon/original/engine_support.jpg
http://www.bimmerboard.com/members/paparon/original/underside.JPG
http://www.bimmerboard.com/members/paparon/original/drilled_slots.JPG
http://www.bimmerboard.com/members/paparon/original/how_to_reach1.JPG
http://www.bimmerboard.com/members/paparon/original/how_to_reach2.JPG

[Jesda]

Regarding the original post, it really depends on the car. On BMWs, apparently PS fluid is a problem. On Nissans and Infinitis you can use and even mix ATF and PS fluid with no ill effects.

[632 Regal]

and your point is?

edit: my point was to jizzda, why even post such ******** when you know nothing? this forum is to help people not throw them to the curb on your oppinions....

sheesh I defend neubs from newbs, this is gettin like we need a firing squad lately.

[dacoyote]

and your point is?

that when you buy a pos... it doesn't matter whats in it... she is going to break anyway...

[pyro]

eeek i think im going to flush my ps tomrow!!! i had a huge leek and fixed it but to find a bottle of "universal" ps fluid when i bought the car...

[dacoyote]

eeek i think im going to flush my ps tomrow!!! i had a huge leek and fixed it but to find a bottle of "universal" ps fluid when i bought the car...

Good idea...