Long & thoughtful discussion of 525 vs 535

[Gayle]

Stumbled across this in the achives. As it is in the old format (Dec 2004), I can't move it to the archives as is. Best I can do it provide a link to it.

It is a very interesting discussion mostly about the M50 vs M30 focusing on horsepower and torque. Comparisons to other engines sprinkle the discussion as well as considerations of other reasons Why Americans Love 535s. This thread was originally started by Interceptor and you will see many other names you recognize.


http://www.bimmer.info/forum/printthread.php?t=8467&page=1&pp=40


.

[misfortune]

I remember that pissing match. Lots of names there that I don't see too much anymore.

Stumbled across this in the achives. As it is in the old format (Dec 2004), I can't move it to the archives as is. Best I can do it provide a link to it.

It is a very interesting discussion mostly about the M50 vs M30 focusing on horsepower and torque. Comparisons to other engines sprinkle the discussion as well as considerations of other reasons Why Americans Love 535s. This thread was originally started by Interceptor and you will see many other names you recognize.


http://www.bimmer.info/forum/printthread.php?t=8467&page=1&pp=40


.

[Torque]

Jon nailed it with his reply

Originally Posted by Jon K
I'd take an M50 over an M30 anyday. MAF vs AFM, timing chain, no valve jobs... less pinging tendencies, 24v, dual cam, i dunno, BMW used a whole liter less of displacement and the cars compete. If the M50 were 3.5L, well, it'd be a S52 ;)

[Kalevera]

Gayle, the thread wasn't originally in the old format. The "new" board has been around since...uh...December 2003. It appears that it was archived in a non-moveable format, though.

Anyway, this thread is a can of worms. I think Bill, Winfred, and George (who's sadly no longer around to share his acute, if not somewhat acerbic commentary) spoke the truth of it.

I didn't respond to the thread when it was current because I thought the subject and tone weren't really constructive to the inclusive principle, present on all sorts of levels, of .info.

best, whit

[Gayle]

I thought all the various opinions were interesting and it appeared more of a discussion that normally occurs here. I considered it a spirited debate rather than a pissing contest or a can of worms. My acute grasp of the obvious tells me that others don't agree.

So I take it that you do not consider this appropriate for the archives? Not because it in technically inaccurate but because of the tone? I am puzzled at the subject not being considered constructive as I remember several threads in which people have considered buying one car over another, e.g. a 540 compared to a 525, and wanted input as to the differences. Does the tone outweigh the information? I guess I just have a high tolerance for conflict.

[HDhandyman]

WHOA,

You gotta keep that s**t, regardless of tone. That f**king thread was like education in a box for me, just add water. I'm with Gayle on this one. If that kind of conversation happens here--I'll be a member for life!

(my french is over the top on this one, but in this case, it's discerning.)

[Fred Tyler]

A bit like the thread discussing digital cameras! canon v nikon. SU v stongberg etc etc. we will normally support what we have, human nature I guess. BTW I have m50 525i.
regards fred

[Interceptor]

I didn't respond to the thread when it was current because I thought the subject and tone weren't really constructive to the inclusive principle, present on all sorts of levels, of .info.
If you're talking of my original post/question I have to disagree. My post was a bit provocative, but I was also genuinely interested in what I asked. Since the culture and ways of thinking are drastically different in the US than they are here in Europe, I asked this question on a mostly-US board in hope to get some answers that would satisfy my curiosity.

On the other hand, I didn't know that it will be such an inflamatory issue. Yes, there were some replies that got out of hand, but I think many of us learned a lot of new and interesting stuff, and that's what matters the most.

Also, that thread maybe wasn't very interesting to you because you already knew (mostly) everyhing about the subject - to me, and many others it was a great thread packed with new and interesting info.

Anyway, it's getting a bit boring without someone stirring things up, like UKM5 did - I kinda miss him :)

[Interceptor]

Does the tone outweigh the information? I guess I just have a high tolerance for conflict.
No, you're perfectly fine. It just seems that some members are more touchy than the others, which is normal in a community of this size.

From another (maybe a bit sexist?) point of view, it's interesting how a woman has higher tolerance for conflict than some male members of this board. :)

Anyway, I fully agree with someone who said you are breathe of fresh air on this board - keep up the good work!

[misfortune]

No, you're perfectly fine. It just seems that some members are more touchy than the others, which is normal in a community of this size.

From another (maybe a bit sexist?) point of view, it's interesting how a woman has higher tolerance for conflict than some male members of this board. :)

Anyway, I fully agree with someone who said you are breathe of fresh air on this board - keep up the good work!

I know. Its pretty sad. I guess when it comes to knowledge a man has to know more. I experience first hand the "pissing match" that girls go through over petty stuff, but and its almost as pathetic as when a man thinks he knows what he's talking about when he doesn't.

[Interceptor]

I know. Its pretty sad. I guess when it comes to knowledge a man has to know more. I experience first hand the "pissing match" that girls go through over petty stuff, but and its almost as pathetic as when a man thinks he knows what he's talking about when he doesn't.
We all sometimes find ourselves in such a situation, and it's a perfectly human-like behaviour, but making a habbit of it is what's bad.

[Paul in NZ]

in hindsight we are all much cleverer!I may have been tempted by a 525 m50 but at the time I bought mine I was looking specifically for an manual IS model,I didnt even conder that i should look for a 525 M50 in the same spec.Very small market here.Many times you find yourself in the situation where if you find a good un you buy it.Besides i am a lazy bas&^%$ and like the tourque,I shouldve got a 540 IS 6 speed.But...........

[Kalevera]

This is getting a bit o/t, but....

Int, I agree completely with what you've said. My earlier post wasn't directed at your initiation of that thread, but instead the subsequent bickering that ocurred....the whole "mine is bigger than yours" attitude that I, for one, find unproductive and condemning.

I champion continuous and expedient learning practices; my involvement with this forum should serve as a testament to that fact. However, when one party turns the learning process into an effrontive or arrogant attack on another, what was once a benign query results in confrontation and anger, emotions that do little to promote the community.

Humankind would do well to reconsider itself when the majority of its participants can only respond to, in accordance with Maslow's work, the sensations of pain and pleasure, or anger and orgasm (as most TV would have you believe).

Just something to think about.

best, whit

[Interceptor]

Int, I agree completely with what you've said. My earlier post wasn't directed at your initiation of that thread, but instead the subsequent bickering that ocurred....the whole "mine is bigger than yours" attitude that I, for one, find unproductive and condemning. That's almost inevitable on a large board like this one - as Ed said in his sticky post for newbies, there's always someone (or more of them) having a bad day. Some have a bad temper as their genetic heritage, which is also unpredictable in discussions of that magnitude, especially because of the open-type community, where everyone can be a part of it by simply entering a username/password of their choice.


I champion continuous and expedient learning practices; my involvement with this forum should serve as a testament to that fact. However, when one party turns the learning process into an effrontive or arrogant attack on another, what was once a benign query results in confrontation and anger, emotions that do little to promote the community.

Humankind would do well to reconsider itself when the majority of its participants can only respond to, in accordance with Maslow's work, the sensations of pain and pleasure, or anger and orgasm (as most TV would have you believe).

Just something to think about. That theory would work flawlessly in a perfect world - in which we, unfortunately, do not live in. Most of the people are not capable of sensing subtle changes of emotions, and communication of this type is restrictive by it's nature anyway.

I also felt I was misunderstud in a lot of situations - maybe because I have a weird sense of humour and english is not my native tongue so I cannot translate my feelings/attitude with 100% accuracy all the time, especially because my vocabulary is somewhat limited as opposed to US/UK/OZ people.

Anyway, to cut this psycho-babble short - I try to keep an open mind on this board, which is not always easy since I'm only human. :) I don't keep any grudges towards anyone on this board and I hope it'll be like that in the upcoming years. I'm a member for almost a year and I really feel at home here.

Regards

[SRR2]

I agree. There's a lot of noise in that thread. Lots more smoke than fire. I confess I didn't read the whole tedious thing, but the key part of performance comparison, which is the integral of power under the power v. rpm curve, over the range of rpm set by the transmission ratios, wasn't mentioned anywhere. Any discussion based on simplistic notions of "power" and "torque" (specified at a single rpm) without mentioning the shape of the curves and the range over which they optimally operate, just isn't worth having, much less archiving.

Anyone who's driven an S2000 with its engine rated at 240 hp, and then diven an M-roadster with its engine also rated at 240 hp, will immediately appreciate the difference the shape of the torque curve makes. The latter accelerates much better, and is a much more tractable driver.

[SLEX Runner]

I very much enjoyed the discussions about the 525i and the 535i.

I drove last night and tried to understand torque and hp and smoothness of delivery and working less to reach nirvana (as this applies to the 535 more than the 525) and will attest that I am happy with the 535. Running at 120kph and accelerating to 190kph effortlessly was purejoy!

I haven't driven an M50 and wont say that I will never own one. Having an e34 is a current addiction for me!

[callen]

and I think Bill R replied to that right on the head....those are the reasons to own the 3.5L.

[bfd]

One thing about this thread that doesn't appear to be mentioned is the fact that the E34 is an OLD car. The newest ones are 10 years old; the newest 535i would be what 12 years old?!!

Arguably the most important thing at this point is to find the "cleanest" car you can. I would take a 525i that is "clean" over a crappy 535i, torque or no torque.

[Interceptor]

One thing about this thread that doesn't appear to be mentioned is the fact that the E34 is an OLD car. The newest ones are 10 years old; the newest 535i would be what 12 years old?!!

Arguably the most important thing at this point is to find the "cleanest" car you can. I would take a 525i that is "clean" over a crappy 535i, torque or no torque.
I think my favourite would be '95 540i/6 - chip it, and you're over 300 HP, torque is insane, maintenance costs are lower than for an M5 + the engine lasts longer and has cheaper overhaul.

[Paul in NZ]

One thing about this thread that doesn't appear to be mentioned is the fact that the E34 is an OLD car. The newest ones are 10 years old; the newest 535i would be what 12 years old?!!

I think that was mentioned and of course the actual engine design of the m30 is older still.


I think my favourite would be '95 540i/6 - chip it, and you're over 300 HP, torque is insane, maintenance costs are lower than for an M5 + the engine lasts longer and has cheaper overhaul.

Make that an M540 or one of its brothers and i think you are spot on.Or at least lower and uprate suspension on a 540 /6

[rreimund]

One thing about this thread that doesn't appear to be mentioned is the fact that the E34 is an OLD car. The newest ones are 10 years old; the newest 535i would be what 12 years old?!!

Arguably the most important thing at this point is to find the "cleanest" car you can. I would take a 525i that is "clean" over a crappy 535i, torque or no torque.

bfd,
I'm new here, so forgive my presumptuousness in chiming in here.. But this is exactly my thought at the moment, thank you for validating it. I've been searching for a 535 manual for a while, but the ones Ive found have either been beat up, are over 1000 miles away, or are way out of my price range. That said, I've stumbled on what appears to be a very clean 95 525i that makes it as young as an e34 can be, and it's still a nice BMW straight 6 with all of the benefits that come with that over the V8 (less complex, more fuel efficient, lower TCO).

Given this, it's a pretty solid bet that if the 525i is as clean as it appears, it will be mine shortly. Will I miss the torque of the big six... sure.. but I'd miss driving an e34 at all more if I kept holding out for the perfect 535. At least this can buy me time until I can find a clean 535, and if I don't... well.. I'll still be driving a very nice, quite young, e34 BMW.

- Rick