Best route to 300hp?

[Jay 535i]

This is not in the budget for now, but I need something to aspire to...

I have a 1990 535i with an auto tranny and 230,000km (142,000mi) on the clock, stock except for an EAT chip. What is the most sensible route to a reliable 300hp?

[bfd]

If you really want a "sensible" route to 300hp, you're better off getting a new car. There are tons of cars today with 300hp or something very close. Why bother trying to modify these old ass cars?

If you turbo or supercharge, you'll have tons of issues dealing with those systems. Not really "sensible".

If you upgrade to a big bore kit making your car a 3.7-3.9 liter, you still won't get 300 horses. And, the cost will be in the $10k+ range. Sensible?

If you truly like the E34 body style, why not sell your car and get a 91-93 M5. You be at that 300hp range and its stock! Alternatively, the 95 E34 540i with a chip will probably be at 300 horses.

Just don't waste your time and money on your car. Its good "as is", so enjoy what you have!

Btw, I have a 90 535i, 5 speed, 103K with a Jim C chip. I plan to keep everything else "stock" and enjoy it!

[Jay 535i]

If you really want a "sensible" route to 300hp, you're better off getting a new car. There are tons of cars today with 300hp or something very close. Why bother trying to modify these old ass cars?

If you turbo or supercharge, you'll have tons of issues dealing with those systems. Not really "sensible".

If you upgrade to a big bore kit making your car a 3.7-3.9 liter, you still won't get 300 horses. And, the cost will be in the $10k+ range. Sensible?

If you truly like the E34 body style, why not sell your car and get a 91-93 M5. You be at that 300hp range and its stock! Alternatively, the 95 E34 540i with a chip will probably be at 300 horses.

Just don't waste your time and money on your car. Its good "as is", so enjoy what you have!

Btw, I have a 90 535i, 5 speed, 103K with a Jim C chip. I plan to keep everything else "stock" and enjoy it!

I wouldn't have thought that forced induction or a displacement increase would have been necessary.

To replace the car with a 540 or similar would cost me ~$5000, not to mention the cost of fixing everything on the 'new' car that I've already fixed on the 'old' car. I would have expected that I could squeeze 300hp out of my 535i for less than that. If not, so be it, but I'm looking for suggestions.

[Interceptor]

If you really want a "sensible" route to 300hp, you're better off getting a new car. There are tons of cars today with 300hp or something very close. Why bother trying to modify these old ass cars?

If you turbo or supercharge, you'll have tons of issues dealing with those systems. Not really "sensible".

If you upgrade to a big bore kit making your car a 3.7-3.9 liter, you still won't get 300 horses. And, the cost will be in the $10k+ range. Sensible?

If you truly like the E34 body style, why not sell your car and get a 91-93 M5. You be at that 300hp range and its stock! Alternatively, the 95 E34 540i with a chip will probably be at 300 horses.

Just don't waste your time and money on your car. Its good "as is", so enjoy what you have!

Btw, I have a 90 535i, 5 speed, 103K with a Jim C chip. I plan to keep everything else "stock" and enjoy it!
I think I would probably go with the chipped 540i/6 - for me, that's the best of both worlds - huge amounts of torque/power, yet extremely drivable. Also, it won't cost you an arm and a leg, as an M5 will, when it's time to make an overhaul.

[Jon K]

$3,000 and some know-how will take an M30 over 450hp


Reliably? No.

[Interceptor]

I wouldn't have thought that forced induction or a displacement increase would have been necessary.

To replace the car with a 540 or similar would cost me ~$5000, not to mention the cost of fixing everything on the 'new' car that I've already fixed on the 'old' car. I would have expected that I could squeeze 300hp out of my 535i for less than that. If not, so be it, but I'm looking for suggestions. A good turbo/supercharger kit will cost you ~ $5k. There is NO f**king way it's gonna reach 300 HP without some serious modifications. Bigger injectors, ported intake manifold, MAF kit, larger throttle body - all that stuff will cost you at least $1000 and guess what, you'll get around 20 HP out of it, maybe less.

I would go the same route as Jon K did - making your own turbo/supercharger kit. I don't see any other way of ramping up the power/torque in quantity you desire without spending loads of money.

[McWatters]

Jon is ur supercharger custom made???

cheers

J.McWatters

[Jay 535i]

$3,000 and some know-how will take an M30 over 450hp


Reliably? No.

Okay, how 'bout 300, then? Reliability?

Thanks everyone for the input. I'll just keep savin' my pennies for that 540 :)

[Jon K]

A good turbo/supercharger kit will cost you ~ $5k. There is NO f**king way it's gonna reach 300 HP without some serious modifications. Bigger injectors, ported intake manifold, MAF kit, larger throttle body - all that stuff will cost you at least $1000 and guess what, you'll get around 20 HP out of it, maybe less.

I would go the same route as Jon K did - making your own turbo kit. I don't see any other way of ramping up the power/torque in quantity you desire without spending loads of money.
not true.

12 - 15 psi on a stock M30 with 42# injectors (you need to get software, but still)
would be well over 300hp.

Its pretty cheap if you source EVERYTHING yourself. No ported/polished/anything would be needed.

[Jay 535i]

not true.

12 - 15 psi on a stock M30 with 42# injectors (you need to get software, but still)
would be well over 300hp.

Its pretty cheap if you source EVERYTHING yourself. No ported/polished/anything would be needed.

PLEASE tell me more :D

[Interceptor]

not true.

12 - 15 psi on a stock M30 with 42# injectors (you need to get software, but still)
would be well over 300hp.

Its pretty cheap if you source EVERYTHING yourself. No ported/polished/anything would be needed.
You think the stock M30 would hold 12-15 PSI? Most people say 8 PSI is max. for a stock engine.

[Incantation]

just buy a bike dude.. even a 300 hp car is slow by comparison

[kyleN20]

bikes oughta come with a coffin, i want a 750 gsxr :)

[Booster]

I think Jon's right unless you just have NO fabrication skills and tools. A guy can source almost EVERYTHING on EGAY and get started with a 300 hp goal.
The less you know or research ,sure.......it will cost you more.
If you have more available cash then skills, buy a kit for 5-6 grand.Otherwise ...do your own engineering and fab work and low boost tune it to success.
I do feel that stock piston ring lands would deteriorate if boost goes above 10 lbs and high revs. too much.Better to be reasonable and be reliable too.
If a NA car is in good tune and has 200 hp stock......at one atmosphere increase(14.7 lbs) via boost it gains a 50% increase in hp =300hp. Of course this would be at the crank not BHP.
I'm not really even sure what a stock E34 w/6 has for stock hp ?? Anyone care to chime on that tidbit ? :)
ALL boosted cars perform their best with little to no exhaust backpressure after the turbine discharge or downpipe.So an upgrade there will be wise too.
The rest of how long the motor lives is up to your disclepline.
................Vinny

[Jon K]

I think Jon's right unless you just have NO fabrication skills and tools. A guy can source almost EVERYTHING on EGAY and get started with a 300 hp goal.
The less you know or research ,sure.......it will cost you more.
If you have more available cash then skills, buy a kit for 5-6 grand.Otherwise ...do your own engineering and fab work and low boost tune it to success.
I do feel that stock piston ring lands would deteriorate if boost goes above 10 lbs and high revs. too much.Better to be reasonable and be reliable too.
If a NA car is in good tune and has 200 hp stock......at one atmosphere increase(14.7 lbs) via boost it gains a 50% increase in hp =300hp. Of course this would be at the crank not BHP.
I'm not really even sure what a stock E34 w/6 has for stock hp ?? Anyone care to chime on that tidbit ? :)
ALL boosted cars perform their best with little to no exhaust backpressure after the turbine discharge or downpipe.So an upgrade there will be wise too.
The rest of how long the motor lives is up to your disclepline.
................Vinny So many manifolds for the m30 available. Its not the end of the world to weld one up yourself. I will be attempting this myself in the spring. T4 turbo, tial 38mm wastegate, i have 30# injectors in use currently, the exhaust is a requirement. There is no way to get around the fact that your current manifolds are in a 2x setting, and a turbo has one usually 2.5 - 3" outlet. So, you will need AT LEAST a single 3" - dual (whatever)" downpipe if you want your exhaust to look stock. You'll need an LC1 wideband computer and O2 sensor ($199) and either a chiptune, piggyback, or standalone. There are a LOT of options. Research guys, I don't want to hold hands but this isn't as expensive as you might think. I am running 7.0 psi of boost at the moment now (9.2psi at redline, but MAF is being overdrawn), untuned, thru a rising rate fuel pressure regulator and you can ask Bahnstormer how my car faired against a 540 @ 5500rpm shiftpoint, equating to 7 psi ;)

[kyleN20]

are you going to be super, and turbo jon?
i would love to do one of the two, and the funny thing is, i probally have a better oppertunity to DIY a setup then anyone on this board, i work in a metal fab workshop, with welders who would help me out, not to mention the use of press break to bend metal, a laser to cut it, a cnc lathe, a cnc mill, drill presses, somthing called the "OCTO" and a bunch of spare metal and ****, but im to busy, or maybe lazy.

[Jon K]

are you going to be super, and turbo jon?
i would love to do one of the two, and the funny thing is, i probally have a better oppertunity to DIY a setup then anyone on this board, i work in a metal fab workshop, with welders who would help me out, not to mention the use of press break to bend metal, a laser to cut it, a cnc lathe, a cnc mill, drill presses, somthing called the "OCTO" and a bunch of spare metal and ****, but im to busy, or maybe lazy.
Yes, I am.


It sounds like I could use your help.

[Gooch]

You may not get the quality in other areas of the vehicle but it is the quickest way there. I'm contemplating that direction.

[kyleN20]

what ya need pal?

[Incantation]

if u don't ride a gsxr is a shxtty bike to start on.. get a cbr or a ninja

[Jon K]

what ya need pal?
I have a bracket I hand cut with a plasma cutter. It's 1/4" aluminum and jagged and such. I need the same bracket made of 3/8" aluminum, drilled for the bolts and cut smoother.

It's planar, or 2D, how ever you want to call it. No varying thicknesses/etc.

[Jon K]

if u don't ride a gsxr is a shxtty bike to start on.. get a cbr or a ninja
I learned on a 750, thought it was fine.

[Incantation]

well then you would not have a basis for comparison. gixxers are notorious for not being user friendly. ride a cbr and then hop on the suzuki and you will see how much more you will have to work

[kyleN20]

humm, if you could send me maybe a cardboard cutout or somthing
i can see how much these guys can help me.

[kyleN20]

only problem would be getting material, and maybe using cnc stuff because you have to set up a computer program, and thats the homos up front in the offices, but i may be able to, send me a cutout, will work from there
where are you at anyways?

[Jon K]

only problem would be getting material, and maybe using cnc stuff because you have to set up a computer program, and thats the homos up front in the offices, but i may be able to, send me a cutout, will work from there
where are you at anyways?
Thanks. I am around Philadelphia, PA

[Jay 535i]

This kit seems pretty cool:

http://www.turbochargingdynamics.com/tcd_catal_e_Turbo_m30.htm

Bruno says the Stage I above kit makes 400rwhp. Could it be toned down a bit for the sake of the drivetrain?

How much pressure is needed to get 300hp at the flywheel (stock is 208)? I've heard answers from 6 to 15psi. I would think anywhere from 6-10 should be relatively achievable without killing car or bank account. I mean, if the kit above makes 400rwhp for US$3800, then it follows that 300hp at the crank ought to be even less, which is getting into the realm of the reasonable.

Whaddaya reckon, Jon? Seems you've been there.

[Jay 535i]

Jon?

[Jon K]

Sorry,


The TCD stage 1 kit will not get you to 400hp. It is "capable" of getting you there, but the kit as is only has 30# injectors and the chip it comes with (from someone we know :) ) is only tuned for I think <10psi. It's not intercooled either, so when you start turning up the boost the IATs are going to need to be dropped before you start detonating.

A guy in my car club, Andrew, has a TCD Stg 2 535i, now making 360hp and 380tq. However, that's at 13psi intercooled, and on a Tec3-R standalone ecu. He dyno'd only 265hp when on the TCD Stg1 kit. Which is a nice improvement but its only 5 - 7 psi stock. To hit in the 300's you need to do like 9 psi but its not so much the pressure as it is the tuning. there are guys in M3s hitting 415hp on 9 psi... they just have very strung tuning. If I were you, i'd go with the TCD stage 1 kit, put it on yourself, and upgrade it in the future. The air-to-water intercooler they offer is great, but very expensive compared to a $400 air to air front mount. The most expensive part of this will be tuning the car afterward. That is, unless you just get a chip tune, standalone ECU's run from $600 (MS v3) to $3,000 (Tec3-R). Let me know if you've got any more questions.

[Jay 535i]

Sorry,


The TCD stage 1 kit will not get you to 400hp. It is "capable" of getting you there, but the kit as is only has 30# injectors and the chip it comes with (from someone we know :) ) is only tuned for I think <10psi. It's not intercooled either, so when you start turning up the boost the IATs are going to need to be dropped before you start detonating.

A guy in my car club, Andrew, has a TCD Stg 2 535i, now making 360hp and 380tq. However, that's at 13psi intercooled, and on a Tec3-R standalone ecu. He dyno'd only 265hp when on the TCD Stg1 kit. Which is a nice improvement but its only 5 - 7 psi stock. To hit in the 300's you need to do like 9 psi but its not so much the pressure as it is the tuning. there are guys in M3s hitting 415hp on 9 psi... they just have very strung tuning. If I were you, i'd go with the TCD stage 1 kit, put it on yourself, and upgrade it in the future. The air-to-water intercooler they offer is great, but very expensive compared to a $400 air to air front mount. The most expensive part of this will be tuning the car afterward. That is, unless you just get a chip tune, standalone ECU's run from $600 (MS v3) to $3,000 (Tec3-R). Let me know if you've got any more questions.

Thanks a lot for that, Jon. It sounds like reaching 300hp is going to cost well over $5000 by the time I'm done. That's halfway to a 540/6, so I think I'll can this idea for now.

Thanks for all the info, though. I learned a lot. :)

[Booster]

Thanks. I am around Philadelphia, PA

Jon can you just send him a copied disc for the programmer to load ?? He could burn it straight from that with the basic programs most Lazer and Water-jets run on.
I manage to get most of my stainless flanges etc. water-jetted off of hard patterns with great fit but the patterns are as exact as can be to go this way.I even have the 3-bolt stainless exhaust connect flanges done this way utilising some with rotational ferrules for easier fitment later.
.........INCANTATION.....I agree about the Hondas intuitive natures as opposed to others. I rode CBR 6's and 1000's for years and can attest to the difference. Great machines, just too many non -watchers driving out there for comfort.
..............Vinny

[kyleN20]

well, jon cut his with a plasma cutter, so i doubt he has a computer program to send to me

[Interceptor]

Thanks a lot for that, Jon. It sounds like reaching 300hp is going to cost well over $5000 by the time I'm done. That's halfway to a 540/6, so I think I'll can this idea for now.
I'm glad you came to your senses :) Can't wait to see pix of your new 540i/6 some time next year :)

[Jon K]

Thanks a lot for that, Jon. It sounds like reaching 300hp is going to cost well over $5000 by the time I'm done. That's halfway to a 540/6, so I think I'll can this idea for now.

Thanks for all the info, though. I learned a lot. :)

Don't look at it that way. The standalone ECU is an extreme instance. You don't need that. If you spend the $4,000 in making the car 280hp... you can spend another $200 - $300 every so often and get 100hp jumps. For instance, larger injkectors, more boost... adjustable boost controller more boost... etc etc. The M30 is very cheapily fast.

[Jay 535i]

Don't look at it that way. The standalone ECU is an extreme instance. You don't need that. If you spend the $4,000 in making the car 280hp... you can spend another $200 - $300 every so often and get 100hp jumps. For instance, larger injkectors, more boost... adjustable boost controller more boost... etc etc. The M30 is very cheapily fast.

Fair enough, but $4000 + $6000 (fair market value of my car) = $10,000 (purchase price for a nice E34 540 -- with the manual transmission I've always wanted).

And, you see, a new car was always in the cards because I don't have a manual transmission, which bugs me. So the car's gonna be replaced for that reason. I was hoping for an interim solution that would give me more oomph for less than the cost of total replacement, but it seems there's no such thing. So I'll just keep saving for that 540/6, which is what I really wanted in the first place. Then you can help me turbocharge that!

[Jon K]

Fair enough, but $4000 + $6000 (fair market value of my car) = $10,000 (purchase price for a nice E34 540 -- with the manual transmission I've always wanted).

And, you see, a new car was always in the cards because I don't have a manual transmission, which bugs me. So the car's gonna be replaced for that reason. I was hoping for an interim solution that would give me more oomph for less than the cost of total replacement, but it seems there's no such thing. So I'll just keep saving for that 540/6, which is what I really wanted in the first place. Then you can help me turbocharge that!
Turbocharging a V8 is a waste of time. You'll run out of money before you get it done. Dual opposed manifolds make it real hard, you have to do twin turbo basically. You're stuck with a S/C on a 540... and a turbo M30 will run down a S/C 540 anyday.

[Jay 535i]

Turbocharging a V8 is a waste of time. You'll run out of money before you get it done. Dual opposed manifolds make it real hard, you have to do twin turbo basically. You're stuck with a S/C on a 540... and a turbo M30 will run down a S/C 540 anyday.

Okay, okay then ;)

In that case, I'm saving up for a manual tranny swap and the mods you suggested. :D

[Jon K]

Okay, okay then ;)

In that case, I'm saving up for a manual tranny swap and the mods you suggested. :D
That's what I'd do. If there were a s/c option for the M30 I'd recommend that as it will give you that torque you want without being finicky. Just do a trans swap, I think they're pretty easy to do nowadays with cars laying around. Then, just do a compression/leakdown test on the M30, and go from there. If you need one, I have many turbos laying around.

[Eric Clark]

This is not in the budget for now, but I need something to aspire to...

I have a 1990 535i with an auto tranny and 230,000km (142,000mi) on the clock, stock except for an EAT chip. What is the most sensible route to a reliable 300hp?


Why even bother wasting your time getting 300hp when you have an auto? I am not sure what this transmission is rated for but I would bet it would seriously decrease its life. Although that can be a good excuse to do a conversion :D

[Jon K]

he pretty much said he would first do a 5 spd swap

[Jay 535i]

Is this the kind of thing I should be looking for?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BMW-M5-E34-Getrag-280-5spd-transmission-BAD-SYNCHROS_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33733QQitemZ80 14904814QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

Or (hee hee), this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2000-BMW-M3-ENGINE-TRANSMISSION-TAKE-OUT-M-COUPE_W0QQitemZ8014013496QQcategoryZ33615QQrdZ1QQc mdZViewItem

[FWinNH]

Man, that would be a nice start on an E30 project car.