Blue vs Green economics are obvious.

[Gene in NC]

Green stuff $8 at Wmart, Saab blue $9.53 or even BMW $22 is the deal. Plan to run our three m20s forever.

Decided to go blue after thinking about lower hose location, bout 4" from bottom, on '89 525 radiator. The green stuff looks OK even after extended time because there is no rust to turn color. Oxidation is holding on inside of block and head just waiting to screw you.

That '89 has o'heated twice despite fair service on green stuff.

First on Christmas eve in NC mtns (Boone) 20 min. after climb through gap on r421 with no indication of above normal temp. Working against slight coolant loss following t belt chng 20k ago so I went for new w pump and t belt. Shop fired up and it overheated right there from clogged radiator. $495 screwing for "new, brand ??" radiator that couldn't be reblt/rodded out because end tank gaskets were not available. See below.

Second o'heat on nice spring day 5 mi from home on local freeway. CLose to time for another t belt so replaced eveything but USED ORIGINAL RADIATOR THAT HAD BEEN REBLT/RODDED LOCALLY.

All going well until I took out the water pump with over tight belt at 40 mos. Replace everything again but kept radiator. Green stuff looked really good after 40 mos.

Some source claimed that green stuff causes oxidation in block which under the right conditions will slough off and clog radiator. Been there done the twice. Even for a slow learner that is enough.

[bfd]

Come on. You concerned about the effects of the "green" stuff in your car. Yet you've posted 2 or is it 3 times about whether you should get the $8 stuff, $9.53 SAAB "BLUE" stuff or $22 for BMW. Do the math. Is it worth $1.53 to stress out over this?

If money is not an issue and you want "offical" BMW, then get the $22 stuff from the dealer.

If you're the type that changes fluid every 2 years and don't really care, why even pay $8 for the green stuff? Find a local auto parts store that sells their generic brand for $2.99 and be done with it.

If you SEE that SAAB Blue coolant is really Valvoline G48 and is the EXACT same stuff as BMW, just not officially approved, then that is the deal!

[632 Regal]

I like the cool blue bottle that says "BMW Coolant" I dont have to wonder what if.... for the cost of 1 tank of gas I can run on for 2-3 years and still not wonder.

[Alan_525i]

I agree with Jeff totally. For the 14 bucks extra you pay for BMW over decent auto store stuff why not? Thats about 60 cents a month over the two year fill interval. Thats not supersizing your Mickey D's value meal once or twice in 30 days (and we all know most of us could do without it). Yeah its sucks that they bend you over like that but really, does it matter?

[Bill R.]

cheaper that way..




I agree with Jeff totally. For the 14 bucks extra you pay for BMW over decent auto store stuff why not? Thats about 60 cents a month over the two year fill interval. Thats not supersizing your Mickey D's value meal once or twice in 30 days (and we all know most of us could do without it). Yeah its sucks that they bend you over like that but really, does it matter?

[Blitzkrieg Bob]

I always wave my hand in the air (like Obi-wan) and ask for a discount at the dealer like its expected, and I get the blue stuff for $19.00

[Gene in NC]

I didn't put the green stuff in the car. That was done by area indies with good reputations.

[Gene in NC]

Good for you true blue users. Are you telling me that everyone posting on this board uses blue bMW?

[Qube]

Good for you true blue users. Are you telling me that everyone posting on this board uses blue bMW?

Oh no... what a question to ask! *ducks*

Mine is fully green, but I expect to go blue with a flush pre or after winter (deciding time).

[Springfield1952]

Good for you true blue users. Are you telling me that everyone posting on this board uses blue bMW? I'm true blue
:D

Curt.

[uscharalph]

Good for you true blue users. Are you telling me that everyone posting on this board uses blue bMW?
I do!

[DanDombrowski]

Nope. Zerex G-05, or G-08, I don't remember.

[FWinNH]

It's probably G05 (distinctive yellow) as that is what Zerex markets and it is readily available through many auto parts chains (Auto Zone, for one). I think it runs around $8 a gallon so about the same proce as SAAB blue if you can find it and don't have to pay shipping.

The specs on G05 (yellow) are almost the same as G48 (blue). The G05 is a little higher in silicon (290 ppm vs <250) and has a lower foaming spec (which is a good thing) It also has a slightly higher reserve alkalinity, but I'm not sure if that is better or worse. In any case either one is worlds better than the green goop they sell for american cars.

As far as the people touting putting only official BMW brand $20 a gallon juice in your 10+ year old cars; I say... "a fool and his money are soon parted." If I can get the exact same product with a different brand label on the outside for half price I'm going to do it.

Yeah, it may only be 10 bucks difference (if you have only one car). But I have six cars now that I have to service (my 2 daughters SAABs plus my own 4). You know... 60 bucks here, 60 bucks there... pretty soon your talking some real money.

-Fred W

[bfd]

It's probably G05 (distinctive yellow) as that is what Zerex markets and it is readily available through many auto parts chains (Auto Zone, for one). I think it runs around $8 a gallon so about the same proce as SAAB blue if you can find it and don't have to pay shipping.

The specs on G05 (yellow) are almost the same as G48 (blue). The G05 is a little higher in silicon (290 ppm vs <250) and has a lower foaming spec (which is a good thing) It also has a slightly higher reserve alkalinity, but I'm not sure if that is better or worse. In any case either one is worlds better than the green goop they sell for american cars.

As far as the people touting putting only official BMW brand $20 a gallon juice in your 10+ year old cars; I say... "a fool and his money are soon parted." If I can get the exact same product with a different brand label on the outside for half price I'm going to do it.

Yeah, it may only be 10 bucks difference (if you have only one car). But I have six cars now that I have to service (my 2 daughters SAABs plus my own 4). You know... 60 bucks here, 60 bucks there... pretty soon your talking some real money.

-Fred W

Interesting responses between this board and the "other" E34 board. When I reported that I found SAAB blue coolant for $12/gal or about 60% less than BMW at $30/gal on the other board, I got blasted by the resident "expert" that buying even SAAB blue at $12 was still too costly and unnecessary. He stated that he has like 275,000Km on his car, he's located in Canada, and he ALWAYS used the $2.99/gal "green" stuff. He changed coolant quite frequently (every 2 years) and believe that played a more important factor than the type of coolant in his never, ever having any water related problems like head gasket.

[DaCan23]

Geez this topic wont die. First off to each his own, and the guy from the other board, sure maybe he's gotten away w/ the $3 cheapo stuff and been ok.

But if you use the cheapo stuff and dont flush every 2 yrs, you can be in very big trouble. Saw a part from a non BMW and after fluid not changed for 5 yrs and it ate completely through steel part.

If you use the blue stuff, its less important to do every 2 yrs.

Since my new heater core, I replaced w/ blue stuff, and the cost is worth my piece of mind till next flush... wether there is truly a benefit or not.

Like many things, we can only give advice, what people do with it is up to them.

Blue coolant, Mobil 1 Engine, Redline Tranny, Synthetic Diff... are all my choices for life..

[dacoyote]

Dear Jesus, please let this dead horse lay here... strike down those that contine to beat it....

Amen

[FWinNH]

Interesting responses between this board and the "other" E34 board. When I reported that I found SAAB blue coolant for $12/gal or about 60% less than BMW at $30/gal on the other board, I got blasted by the resident "expert" that buying even SAAB blue at $12 was still too costly and unnecessary. He stated that he has like 275,000Km on his car, he's located in Canada, and he ALWAYS used the $2.99/gal "green" stuff. He changed coolant quite frequently (every 2 years) and believe that played a more important factor than the type of coolant in his never, ever having any water related problems like head gasket.

Well, I can't speak to the R.E. on some other board, (partly because I don't know which one) but I can tell you what I do know, and have first hand experience with. I am relatively new in the world of BMWs, having only owned them for the past 6-7 years. But even before that I have owned a bunch of different SAABs.

Believe me when I tell you that SAABs are a whole lot tougher on their cooling systems than most BMWs are. Little 2.0 and 2.3 liter four cyl turbocharged engines making around 200hp and 210 ft/lb torque (in stock form!) with only 4.5 quarts of oil in the sump (yeah, that's your engine's other coolant) is really tough to keep cool.

As SAABs age they lose value fast. Therefore SAAB owners tend to want to cut a few corners and be frugal about maintaining them. One place they do is on buying the green stuff. The chemistry of the green antifeeze is designed for the old school US cast iron engines or days gone by. Not for aluminum. If you've ever take off a hose on an aluminum pipe of a car that had been running the green stuff for a while you'd notice a caked up layer of crud. That is evidence of the mineral deposits from the coolant. I have experienced this first hand in someof the used SAABs I have bought in the past.

Using the blue stuff in my other cars, I have had NO deposits. Zero. And in the 10 or 12 cars I have owned since seeing the religion of using the blue stuff (in lieu of the green goo) I have had zero cooling system problems.

But, to each his own...

[ryan roopnarine]

Dear Jesus, please let this dead horse lay here... strike down those that contine to beat it....

Amen


my BMW (big meaty, wang) saw me refrain from contribuiting, so it will hammer against the keyboard and keep this thread alive for a couple more hours as it is bumped, bumped, bumped to the top again.

I'm a mellow Yellow user (zerex glysanthin G-05) for the time being, because it seems like every time i flush my coolant system, a part breaks a short time afterward, causing the cool blue or distilled water to fly, fly away. when i change all of the hoses and my $5 waterpump, ill probably put saab or BMW back in. I bought two jugs of G05 in 2004 back when it was under $9 with tax. im using up the last bottle right now. to all the people suggesting that you can buy antifreeze for under 8$ in the US, HAH. the cheapest antifreeze i can find is green/universal for about $7 without any coupon. if they sold the G05 for $9 (they stopped selling it at autozone, so this is no longer the case) it would be an absolute bargain. $12 for phosphate free coolant (g05 or saab) is a bargain. but in this case, the saab is an extraordinarily good deal because its either exactly the same as or extremely similar to the G48, and is likely closer than the G06. go look in a euro parts store one day, you'll likely find generic "pentosin" antifreezes being sold in a litre/quart bottle, differentiated in properties by color. This is my reassurance in putting the saab in, but the rumors and such that it is G48 help also.

my understanding of why you want the phosphate free stuff, and why i go out of my way to get it...

in europe, the tapwater is hard in dH. now, everybody knows that you are supposed to refill your radiator with distilled water, but automakers know that invariably, the cooling system will get filled with tapwater( from emergencies on the side of the road, people not giving a crap, et cetera). knowing this, they design the cylinder head and block to accomodate the tapwater. american antifreeze, until recently had phosphates in them as (generally) a corrosion inhibitor and a buffer to some extent. The problem with the phosphates is that they don't (crudely-get along) with hard water, and, in a snakes and ladders way, don't get along with the heads made to deal with the hard water. the problem with green american antifreeze is that they don't actually eliminate the phosphate (imma refer to this interchangeably as PO4 2- or phosphate), they include chemical buffers to eliminate the normal effects of the phosphate. (this INCLUDES green/universal antifreeze that says "Phosphate free" on the bottle). if it really isn't Phosphate free guaranteed (like the universal, or green), you have no idea whether or not the phosphate has been excluded, or how good of a buffering system exists. Saab, bmw, mercedes coolants are SUPPOSED to be po4 2- free because that's compatible with with the tapwaters of their motherlands. i was looking at a acidic/ionic disassociation table for for PO4 2- ion 5 minutes ago, its naturally acidic and has 3! Ka's, as in at least 3 possible hydrolysis/disassociation steps until equilibrium is reached. Now, if the only service the green antifreeze was going to see was in glassware on a desk, the buffers that make it phosphate would not concern me. however, in a vehicle, you have rust, you have heat and wear, and, most importantly, you have electricity from the electrical system and the interaction between that, the antifreeze, and the metals that make up the block (which can either halt or hasten electrolysis). if you discount the electricity as a factor, go take a look around the ford f150 newsgroups, and see what happens when they get stray voltages in their coolant (their heater cores explode). this wear kills off the ability of the antifreeze to move up and down through the various possible equilibriums, for the phosphate, as well as the coolant as a whole (as well as creating solids--like scale on aluminum heads and in blocks.

a very long story short (for me)
either I trust that the universal/green antifreeze buffers are adequate enough to deal with the phosphate,and that the inherent buffering action of the phosphate is up to snuff 24/7, or i put in an antifreeze with no phosphate to begin with, and not have to worry about anything.

as a result, im running the phosphate free G05 on hand at current until all my coolant system is replaced, at which time ill look into the saab some more or put in the kalt Blau.


ps. if somebody that actually majored in Ch. wants to make corrections (Alan S, et cetera, please do so).

[Zeuk in Oz]

Agreed !

Here in Oz BMW blue from the dealer is AUD $ 12.10 per litre which at current exchange rates equates to about US $ 8.95 per litre or US $ 8.50 per US quart. (I hope that's right - correct me if not).

Hardly significant in the scheme of things which includes Mobil 1 0W-40, suspension arms, premium fuel, V rated tyres etc, etc,

If this is an issue, perhaps consider another marque.

Buy a Camry and suffer !

[632 Regal]

bump!

[Traian]

bump!

LOL!

Speaking of Saab's and their cooling systems, anyone ever seen that film where some fellows in an old 900S are racing around with a big ol Eldorado in some wintry US backwoods at night. They had a cooling related malfunction on the way as well, looked like they blew a head gasket in fact...not sure which coolant they were using...

Real cool movie, I just can't remember the title...

[athflying79]

Taken from Prestone's website:

Q. Does Prestone® Antifreeze/Coolant contain phosphates?
A. Some European automobile manufacturers request that a phosphate-free antifreeze be used in their vehicles. This issue is related to the extremely high mineral content of the water in Europe. If you were to mix an antifreeze that contained phosphates with the type of water they have in Europe, it may produce deposits that can settle in the cooling system and promote corrosion. However, in North America we do not have this type of water problem. Typical North American coolants have contained phosphates (which is part of the corrosion inhibitor package) for many years. Therefore, the question of phosphates is a non-issue here in North America. Prestone® Antifreeze/Coolant is completely safe for use in both foreign and domestic vehicles. For those consumers who would feel more comfortable using a phosphate-free antifreeze, our Prestone® Extended Life 5/150 Antifreeze/Coolant is phosphate, silicate, and borate free. This coolant uses a special chemistry and technology that extends the life of the corrosion inhibitor package so that it lasts for five years or 150,000 miles (whichever comes first), and is safe for all cars and light trucks (old or new). Prestone® Extended Life 5/150 Antifreeze/Coolant has been approved by General Motors under their DEX-COOL® specifications and is compatible with other DEX-COOL® approved coolants.


If they are willing to print the info, I have to believe they would stand behind the information. If your car were to incur damage due to their product, they would clearly be liable. (Then again, proving it was their product that caused the damage might be hard.)

[ryan roopnarine]

Taken from Prestone's website:

Q. Does Prestone® Antifreeze/Coolant contain phosphates?
A. Some European automobile manufacturers request that a phosphate-free antifreeze be used in their vehicles. This issue is related to the extremely high mineral content of the water in Europe. If you were to mix an antifreeze that contained phosphates with the type of water they have in Europe, it may produce deposits that can settle in the cooling system and promote corrosion. However, in North America we do not have this type of water problem. Typical North American coolants have contained phosphates (which is part of the corrosion inhibitor package) for many years. Therefore, the question of phosphates is a non-issue here in North America. Prestone® Antifreeze/Coolant is completely safe for use in both foreign and domestic vehicles. For those consumers who would feel more comfortable using a phosphate-free antifreeze, our Prestone® Extended Life 5/150 Antifreeze/Coolant is phosphate, silicate, and borate free. This coolant uses a special chemistry and technology that extends the life of the corrosion inhibitor package so that it lasts for five years or 150,000 miles (whichever comes first), and is safe for all cars and light trucks (old or new). Prestone® Extended Life 5/150 Antifreeze/Coolant has been approved by General Motors under their DEX-COOL® specifications and is compatible with other DEX-COOL® approved coolants.


If they are willing to print the

info, I have to believe they would stand behind the information. If your car were to incur damage due to their product, they would clearly be liable. (Then again, proving it was their product that caused the damage might be hard.)

note, the only antifreeze they guarantee is phosphate free is their dexcool replacement...

this is a germanian car board
i wouldn't touch that **** with a 10 foot pole, even if it weren't officially "dexcool" and didn't even look like dexcool.
i think that others here might feel the same way.

[dacoyote]

bump!

dork