tuning without airflow meter

[crunchy]

hi everyone in down here in nz and thought you might be interested in a unit we produce down here, its called a mapecu. we sell these around the world and have very good results with them and will run any car retaining the stock ecu. it has alot of user friendly features and is done thru a laptop.
we have a cancelled shippment here we are moving for 399us.
you can checkout the features and play with the software on mapecu.co.nz
cheers steve

[Anton CH.]

I don't get it. You say it retains the stock ecu, so then how does it change the fuel maps if its just a MAF replacement?

[crunchy]

if you have a look at the web site itll explain more in detail, basicly it uses a map sensor built into the mapecu which can be configured to what you need based on map signal and tps, im surprised there isnt more questions. we use to sell it thru powerhaus racing in the states but is also sold thru other dealers.
it also has a learn mode that helps base setup when set in the car for a week, from there you can run forced induction or n/a or what ever you wish. its user friendly and we have on line surport, cheers steve

[632 Regal]

does this even work on our E34s? I dont think it does and thats why people are not interested.

[BigKriss]

does this even work on our E34s? I dont think it does and thats why people are not interested. sir Jeff. this mod will be more common. (http://www.bimmer.info/forum/showthread.php?t=14986&highlight=map+martin)

[crunchy]

yes it does which is why i have it on my 520i, we sell these world wide and itll do any form of a/f meter, vonkarmen, maf, mas, map. simce i have a e34 that im turboing and runing multi throttle bodies i thought it maybe of interest, my main business is building custom turbos for people around the world and i also cast up my own hsg's and parts for them, i also write for a mag called" new zealand performance car" which can also be found on the web.
im not doing this to push my products just thought it might be of help and of use to others,we also took the mapecu to SEMA last year which was well recived.
thankyou for your time guys

[BigKriss]

yes it does which is why i have it on my 520i, we sell these world wide and itll do any form of a/f meter, vonkarmen, maf, mas, map. simce i have a e34 that im turboing and runing multi throttle bodies i thought it maybe of interest, my main business is building custom turbos for people around the world and i also cast up my own hsg's and parts for them, i also write for a mag called" new zealand performance car" which can also be found on the web.
im not doing this to push my products just thought it might be of help and of use to others,we also took the mapecu to SEMA last year which was well recived.
thankyou for your time guys
no problem. keep us updated on the turbo install. i like the idea of this setup, you would need a new chip at least to control the ignition timing. will you be running this map setup on your car crunchy?

[crunchy]

no problem. keep us updated on the turbo install. i like the idea of this setup, you would need a new chip at least to control the ignition timing. will you be running this map setup on your car crunchy?
i am already, and its alot more advanced than the split second product

[BigKriss]

i am already, and its alot more advanced than the split second product
how is it more advanced, more features you mean? tell us more about your unit.

[crunchy]

www.mapecu.co.nz, thatll give you an idea of what it can do. wer've even used it on a new range rover with a stroker motor that couldnt be fixed with an emulator, as i said i thought it might be of interest

[Martin in Bellevue]

Is a profile available for the 535's m30 6 cylinder? Also, how does the unit develope a profile; is the stock afm signal monitored, & then replicated with the map sensor? Does the manifold pressure change when the afm is replaced with an open tube?


www.mapecu.co.nz, thatll give you an idea of what it can do. wer've even used it on a new range rover with a stroker motor that couldnt be fixed with an emulator, as i said i thought it might be of interest

[crunchy]

Is a profile available for the 535's m30 6 cylinder? Also, how does the unit develope a profile; is the stock afm signal monitored, & then replicated with the map sensor? Does the manifold pressure change when the afm is replaced with an open tube?
hi martin, my name is steve, we dont have a proflie for the m30 and your right in it as far as copying afm signal and it then stores this to flash memory. you can then go into the map and tidy up any ups or downs that dont look right, once done you then remove the stock afm and turn key. we have also put in to the unit most comon wide band or narrow 02 sensors so you can data log from there when tuning or use a stand alone unit.
the map sensor then returns the same signal as the afm except its not there anymore. engine behaves the same as before and drives as per stock except now you can pull some more hp without the afm or forced induction etc.
this isnt a intercept like others on the market and before others ask mark2 is being developed to do ignition as well but we need to do more development and this is a serious ecu which is why we took it to sema which isnt cheap to do, cheers

[crunchy]

hi martin, my name is steve, we dont have a proflie for the m30 and your right in it as far as copying afm signal and it then stores this to flash memory. you can then go into the map and tidy up any ups or downs that dont look right, once done you then remove the stock afm and turn key. we have also put in to the unit most comon wide band or narrow 02 sensors so you can data log from there when tuning or use a stand alone unit.
the map sensor then returns the same signal as the afm except its not there anymore. engine behaves the same as before and drives as per stock except now you can pull some more hp without the afm or forced induction etc.
this isnt a intercept like others on the market and before others ask mark2 is being developed to do ignition as well but we need to do more development and this is a serious ecu which is why we took it to sema which isnt cheap to do, cheers
for those who belive it wont work
http://www.e30tech.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=204155#204155

[genphreak]

for those who belive it wont work
http://www.e30tech.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=204155#204155 Hi Crunchy, Congratulations on making your ECU so cool and delivering it to market. I like very much the approach you have taken in making this a simple add-on for us, however many of us have been considering MegaSquirt and the Split Second PSC-001 for some time. It is obvious that as all the M30 powered cars out there get older there will be many candidates for a solution that eliminates the Air Flow Meter (AFM), especially one that does not require a Mass Air Flow meter (MAF), plus has control over our fuel maps whilst keeping the Motronic for running the instruments and warning systems, let alone the narrow band O2 sensor.

I think people should be aware though, as perhaps you are, that the Megasquirt project is gathering a lot of pace. I have looked into your site and some forums but was disappointed when I saw your response (below) to someone asking about how it compared technically to the 'Squirt, where rather than describing the many benefits your product has, you claimed;

crunchy says;
"form what you have said your tying to compare apples with oranges, this isnt a experimental ecu or diy where you have to remove a perfectly good ecu and change all your sensors plus wiring and many hours of setup"

Firstly, the 'Squirt is certainly not experimental- it works in many more cars than yours does, in fact has been successfully documented on many more cars than yours too.

Second, to call it 'DIY' is rough also, as it can be added in a fairly simple fashion too, though it is perhaps usaully a more comprehensive install as one is crazy not to take advantage of its ability to run one's injectors to directly control fuel delivery. How this is going over the top (work-wise) for someone who is handy enough to implement a piggy back unit (though I get your point). This point it largely technical, I am more concerned about your potrayal of the 'squirt' as experimental and DIY when in actual fact it has been around for many many years (unlike yours?), is growing strongly and does what many other commercial versions do for free.

With the development of such projects fuelled by online collaboration, it is now very easy for enterprising people around the world (as opposed to a few massive corporations) to develop other automotive ECUs, piggy-back products and get commercial Enterprises up and running- as these projects typically provide all their source-code and technical information (which was previously (for most intents and purposes) the sole intellectual property of automotive companies).

I take you to task on this because you would be well-advised to exercise more care about how you portray collaborative projects that operate within your chosen field. What you term 'competitive' 'in the market' is one thing, however what the MegaSquirt project provides is not in any way commerical and its community members have no interest in 'competing' with you. What you have not acknowledged to anyone in your attempt to market your product in this (and other) forums is that MegaSquirt is a great project in its own right as well as a fantastic project for any competent home builder (with an ounce of application) that is prepared to understand the relevent parts of the accurate and voluminous information they make freely available. This doco is good enough to educate anyone with a basic automotive understanding to a fully competent user, this is getting also better all the time. The MegaSquirt's inner workings, software, support, as well as the practical guarantee of future development and upgrades, ability to run forced induction, etc. is provided by very capable, community-minded people who decided to collaborate with the some very lucky people (us) to bring their knowledge (and the many benefits of it) to others for free, zip, nada, In fact they do it to for the benefit of the world, not (as others in the field- their own hip-pocket.

All this work- years and years of it- all done for free, goes (so far) completely disregarded (and I would expect they might feel is somewhat mis-represented) by you.

For instance your claim that 'all the sensors have to be changed' is not true; all you have to change is one temperature sensor (and you do have the option to map your own so this is actually not the case) Furthermore I believe there is a mapping now available for M20/M30 (Bosch sensors) and there is always the ability to share someone else's mapped info, which is what is starting to happen more now development is less stymied by corporations trying to maximise returns). I note this mainly because your setup needs the Manifold Air Pressure (MAP) sensor installed also, and changing one in relation to changing two is hardly a point of difference.

The reality is that the 'Squirt is a very well supported open-project and despite your good intentions to make your similarly great product available to us, it still appears (please let us know otherwise) that it would be (almost) as easy to use the 'Squirt to make the small adjustments we might want to make, yet have room to do many more things in future (ie directly control fuel/spark/additional injection and forced induction).

I also say all this as I (and many others here) would be keen customers should you take some time to address our queries (about features, technical operation, software and so on) perhaps more clearly than you have so far (your website would be a great place for it). These are all things that would make it easier to opt for a simple addition to my Motronic than plump for a full or partial ECU upgrade, even though there may be some greater benefits to this as the Motronic ECU does not always get things right, which is certainly the case if you add engine upgrades (esp. any kind of forced induction).

In terms of providing an easy add-on (piggy-back) installation, perhaps you could tell us what features we get with your ECU that we cannot currently get with a PSC-001 which is smaller, cheaper and already documented using a MAP sensor?

Regards, Nick

[632 Regal]

*cough cough* nice point.

[genphreak]

*cough cough* nice point.I think I scared him away :( That was not my intent, but the seeding of forums Steve was up to combined with a general lack of info to backup what he was saying kinda got me interested. I just want(ed) to know whether he really cared about his approach on e30tech and whether he was actually able to really let us know what we would actually have to do (or other issues that users would face) in 'enhancing an M30's Motronic 1.3' with the mapecu. His posts are always very brief and website has nothing in the least Motronic related to date.

[Jon K]

I think he's just talking about a MAP to MAF converter. No real science to it... MAP sensor on the intake, calibrate the output from 0 - 5v to simulate MAF...


Soon I will have no MAF ;)

Genfreak. one correction...
TECHNICALLY the bosch coolant and intake temp sensors can be utilized with the Megasquirt, but I had neither the patience nor time to screw around with building a table... so I simply installed a GM air intake temp sensor (better for FI because its an open-element type versus a brass probe) and coolant temp sensor. Other than that, you're fairly accurate :)

[genphreak]

I think he's just talking about a MAP to MAF converter. No real science to it... MAP sensor on the intake, calibrate the output from 0 - 5v to simulate MAF... Soon I will have no MAF ;) Genfreak. one correction... TECHNICALLY the bosch coolant and intake temp sensors can be utilized with the Megasquirt, but I had neither the patience nor time to screw around with building a table... so I simply installed a GM air intake temp sensor (better for FI because its an open-element type versus a brass probe) and coolant temp sensor. Other than that, you're fairly accurate :) Thanks Jon. I am glad you are doing well with your 'Squirt as not many car enthusiasts get past the non-commercial/more involved look of the 'Squirt sites. It pays to be accurate on this stuff, especially when asking the questions I've asked. I can see many people getting real excited when they hear about this as they think it to be a hot ECU for their BMW instead of a piggyback with a MAP sensor. It's not a nice thing to have to do, correct someone like that when what I really do want to do is encourage as much bimmer development as possible.

I do believe that a Swedish guy who has his 'Squirt running with the stock sensors, but I have no proof yet, just a whiff of it from a mate in the UK. As soon as I can get verification from the source I'll be straight back to share the info.

[crunchy]

Thanks Jon. I am glad you are doing well with your 'Squirt as not many car enthusiasts get past the non-commercial/more involved look of the 'Squirt sites. It pays to be accurate on this stuff, especially when asking the questions I've asked. I can see many people getting real excited when they hear about this as they think it to be a hot ECU for their BMW instead of a piggyback with a MAP sensor. It's not a nice thing to have to do, correct someone like that when what I really do want to do is encourage as much bimmer development as possible.

I do believe that a Swedish guy who has his 'Squirt running with the stock sensors, but I have no proof yet, just a whiff of it from a mate in the UK. As soon as I can get verification from the source I'll be straight back to share the info.
sorry for a late reply but i have afew business to run which keeps me busy, im very impressed with the time you have taken to answer and very dissapointed you didnt take the same time to read and understand the web site. if you had taken the time to do this you would have answered all the questions you have asked and some. our product isnt in compititon to the megasquirt and never will be, i wasnt wrong in saying "" comparing apples with oranges"" and was far from knocking the megasquirt.
the mapecu has been around for over 7 years with many uses around the world that are more than happy with what it is designed to do, i also read you are anti companies that you say'' are filling their pockets''.( bmw is one of the biggest profit companies in the world)
we make a very high quality unit that comes with a warrenty and after sales backup for any issues. the unit will work on any car running a processor based ecu. maf, map, afm, von karmen etc which again covers this on the web site. the unit is very easy to install and configure and you can be up and running in a very short time. not everyone wishes to construct their own experimental diy programable efi controller( quote of megasquirt page).
i install alot of after market ecu's like motec, autronic, ems, kalmaker, etc and the customers dont feel inclined to do the shelves and only wish to get in and drive and wont results.
to clear up a few things for you , the mapecu can run any efi based car, has built in map sensor, will run to over 30psi, does n/a or forced induction, can datalog any function, componsate for any injector size, shelf learn mode, run most wideband aftermarket o2 sensors( which are programed into the unit standard) swap programs via email around the world and many more features as per the web page.
all i wonted to do was bring this product to others attention and that it has been done on a bmw and does work well, like anything you have a chose to do as you can afford, what ever that maybe

[BigKriss]

Cruncy aka Steve. Maybe your not getting the responses that you think you should be getting and I read your comments over at e30tech.com. The members on here a quite a skeptical bunch. Before you posted no-one on here has heard of the map ecu and there is only one member that I know of (martin) who has done the air flow meter to MAP conversion.

You obviously know what you’re talking about however most of the members on here like to establish a rapport with a new member to being with and secondly we need a big persuasion to try new technologies. Maybe if you give us a more in depth description of your setup with pictures you can win some of us over.

[crunchy]

Cruncy aka Steve. Maybe your not getting the responses that you think you should be getting and I read your comments over at e30tech.com. The members on here a quite a skeptical bunch. Before you posted no-one on here has heard of the map ecu and there is only one member that I know of (martin) who has done the air flow meter to MAP conversion.

You obviously know what you’re talking about however most of the members on here like to establish a rapport with a new member to being with and secondly we need a big persuasion to try new technologies. Maybe if you give us a more in depth description of your setup with pictures you can win some of us over.
thankyou for the warming reply( the only one ), i didnt wont to win anyone over( that would be a BIG ASK on here) .i just wonted to point out and show that we have this product and was by no means pushing for sales, to be honest with you i would be pushing s... up hill to win anyone over based on the replies i got. the guys on the e30 forum seem to be more performance driven than on here and receptive,
cant shoot a guy for trying, thankyou all for your time

[emw525E34]

Yeah, Steve. An expat Kiwi here. This is a rather conservative bunch alright. Except for a few folks doing tweaks here and there.
I did a similar thing (as Martin) replacing the AFM of the M20 motor with a M30 535 AFM. Bigger unit but radically different voltage/resistance split ratio. I used an APEXI SAFC2 to re-calibrate/condition the air/mixture signal into the stock ECU. Once programmed properly, it gives more accurate values across the RPM range, hence giving a better torque distribution when I wanted it. OF course, limited by the adaptation of the stock ECU 3D maps.
Over time, it works pretty well. Nice thing is I can tweak the values on per 500 rpm ranges to sort-of move the torque lower or optimise for fuel consumption. I had it going for more than 3 years now and I expect it to last at least another 5 years before the bodywork dis-integrates on me.

IF I can get my hands on a MAP sensor, I could swap this in and re-programme the APEXI appropriately and it should work.

[Jon K]

This is a rather conservative bunch alright. Except for a few folks doing tweaks here and there.

Haha I disagree.

[crunchy]

Yeah, Steve. An expat Kiwi here. This is a rather conservative bunch alright. Except for a few folks doing tweaks here and there.
I did a similar thing (as Martin) replacing the AFM of the M20 motor with a M30 535 AFM. Bigger unit but radically different voltage/resistance split ratio. I used an APEXI SAFC2 to re-calibrate/condition the air/mixture signal into the stock ECU. Once programmed properly, it gives more accurate values across the RPM range, hence giving a better torque distribution when I wanted it. OF course, limited by the adaptation of the stock ECU 3D maps.
Over time, it works pretty well. Nice thing is I can tweak the values on per 500 rpm ranges to sort-of move the torque lower or optimise for fuel consumption. I had it going for more than 3 years now and I expect it to last at least another 5 years before the bodywork dis-integrates on me.

IF I can get my hands on a MAP sensor, I could swap this in and re-programme the APEXI appropriately and it should work.
cheers for that mate, i used an old afc for awhile which worked not too bad but was limited compared to thew safc2 and now i use the mapecu, as for the rest!! its not worth worring about, cheers

[genphreak]

Steve, thanks for returning to us. As I had said before I have gone to your website looking for any info that was specific to Motronic or m30s, and there is no mention of them or even BMW anywhere I can find.

I appreciate you have put a lot of time and effort into the site and have a business to run but I would like to know things like what (apart from removal of the AFM) can be modified, adjusted and/or logged on my car specifically. Also, as I am planning a turbo or SC I'd like to know how your ECU can manage forced induction, especially how it can might get over Motronic's tendency to retard fuel flow when encountering positive manifold pressure (given that mapECU piggy-backs on the Motronic). Please don't accuse me of not having researched it when I have, have said as much -and further, take some time to appreciate that unlike you I stand to make nothing by spending any time posting information on public forums questioning this or getting pillared in any way.

Perhaps you do not quite appreciate that the name of your product and website (mapECU) does not exactly help consumers understand exactly what it is- for example in my case- in coming to terms with it, I expected it to be an ECU replacement and from what you said I expected it to have perhaps an alternative piggy back function. However I found out after digging around that in our case (e34 users), despite your claim it is simpler and easier to install than a MegaSquirt, it is actually not an ECU. It seems that you are actually suggesting we buy your product to map & tweak our AFMs only, and that your installation simplicity claim assumes that we only want to install it as such, not a complete or even partial ECU replacement.

Regarding your assertion that the 'Squirt is Experimental and DIY', you are correct they do say this on the sites. I was hoping you would avoid this as (like most things) the devil is in the detail on this. To clear this up, my concern is; given that Bowling and Grippo make nothing from the designs they provide to us I think it pretty rough of you to actually quote their disclaimers the way you do; in the same sentence (and in such a way) as to suggest your product is more mature. This is not just wrong, your justification is completely out of context.

For those that don't get what I am on about with my concern about Steve's (ab)use of MegaSquirt's reputation- the issue of experimental and DIY with open projects usually goes like this: An open project makes no profit to put in the bank and so cannot manage any risk from providing the information they do. They simply have to protect themselves from people that might sue them in the case that their free information, service or designs, etc. could be perceived to be incorrect in any way (regardless of whether it is), in the case that someone can a legal suit can be brought on them- let alone proved.

The disclaimer often goes as far as to say their product is experimental as they are not selling it commercially, and as there is no enterprise they need not be bound by the same laws (to protect consumers from the activities and claims of over-zealous or fly-by-night vendors) that a business is. Legally speaking this also has to be backed up in the site and other documentation in order to be valid.

In the early stages of such projects, they are usually experimental. However as a project matures it is tested and improved by an increasing number of people. The 'Squirt is, like many other collaborative projects, waaaayy past this point, though the developers have no interest in drumming up customers- so you see no ambit claims as we might well be forgiven for wondering about in your case Steve.

This is a quote from their site:
Disclaimer: This purchase is for the primary components of the MegaSquirt and MegaSquirt II EFI Controllers (PCB, MCU and MAP sensor) and interface and test accessories. The remainder of the components needed for this controller can be obtained from Digi-Key Order Form (http://www.msefi.com/msinfo/bom.htm). This unit is an experimental electronic fuel injector controller and not a commercial product. No warranties are expressed or implied. Neither Al Grippo nor Bruce Bowling, or any other participant, are responsible for the construction, installation, or targeted use of this unit. This unit has been tested on many engines, however, it is an experimental unit and the end-user assumes all responsibilities for its use, tuning, and application. Use common sense on application."

My point here is that it is wrong to use this to your commercial advantage the way you have. Someone (in this case me) will always take you to task and reputations are very hard to come by. I note with sadness that in your reply and other posts you have refused to concede that the 'Squirt is an accomplished performer in any way, yet the reality is that it has been installed in (perhaps many) hundreds (or thousands for all I know) of applications so is perhaps less experimental and more mature than yours. This has been fairly comprehensively documented online over many years (as I am sure you would be well aware before taking your product to market and investing in your closely-related Enterprise).


the mapecu has been around for over 7 years with many uses around the world that are more than happy with what it is designed to do, i also read you are anti companies that you say'' are filling their pockets''.( bmw is one of the biggest profit companies in the world).
Not at all. I run a company myself. But forgive me but I've only just heard of mapECU and Performance Motor Research Limited. How do we know you won't sell a whole bunch of these things and then disappear as they have some nasty flaws that turn-up 6 months down the line and require replacement? I've seen a government provided R&D grant withdrawn and destroy a company, management stuffs up, the factory burns down, a competitor buys you to put you out of business, or the principles plain disappear for whatever reason or misfortune?

Do you make anything else? Looking into it online now I am wondering if PMR buy mapECU or was the company formed to sell it? Perhaps mapECU available as some other product before this? What install have been done, When was the first install? There is very little information available for us to be able to know what it is and work out how good it really is- let alone what bugs we might have to deal with and so on. I only say this as everything looks very new and your site has only just been put up. There are only 3 applications listed there. We have never seen your product before before but you say that mapECU has been around in NZ for 7 years? How old is the company? Perhaps you can explain the backgound for us a little?

Actually I believe profit can be positive and is a great way to maintain a product and delivery standards. However this does not prevent me from understadning and appreciating open-projects so I do not go round promoting my products (technology products) at the expense of such communities (such as Samba, OpenOffice and Mozilla) by doing (flammable) things like calling them Experimental even though they invariably protect themselves from over-zealous lawyers with many such disclaimers. They do however gain a reputation of performance which is what makes them successful (as opposed to promotion).

With all these projects you can tweak the source code yourself, make modifications and enhanacements, etc. but it does not mean it is in any way harder to install or use. What it does mean is that if they do disappear, consumers are not stuck with a buggy, unsupported or non-fixable product as consumers have all the details they need to fix any part of it.

Just because they are not bent on selling or marketing a product, defending it in the marketplace as traditional competitors would, does not mean you can go round treating it with such disrespect. I have seen less eloquent salespeople claiming that such projects are nowhere as good as (their) commercial product as they are hard for 'consumers to understand quickly' because these projects are often run by 'enthusiasts and academically minded people'. This is just one of the unfair generalisations people dream up- there are many of these around. There are also many enterprising types that start out by reverse-engineering and/or copying such open-projects, and release them commercially with claims of simplicity and support that 'cannot be expected' from the collaborative communities that support the version they copied.


we make a very high quality unit that comes with a warrenty and after sales backup for any issues. the unit will work on any car running a processor based ecu. maf, map, afm, von karmen etc which again covers this on the web site. the unit is very easy to install and configure and you can be up and running in a very short time. not everyone wishes to construct their own experimental diy programable efi controller( quote of megasquirt page).
Promotion aside, I don't doubt that yours is a great product and I agree not everyone wants to go to a lot of trouble to install these things. However few in the know really consider the 'Squirt to be experimental or DIY anymore as you can buy the ECU ready made and tested from over 6 reputable vendors on eBay alone. The practical reality is that the 'Squirt is actually a tried and tested performer and has been well documented as such publicly over the last few years. Your site has been online afor a few weeks and we've never seen it before. Even in an e34's case the 'Squirt is better documented than yours, so when you promote this notion of it being experimental and DIY in order to promote your product (that has only just become available), please tell us why we should believe your claims as opposed to just claiming it. Otherwise doing what you do seems patently unfair to me.

A lot of what you say relates to how your product is easier and simpler to install. Yet from our perspective, as I said before, it is practically as easy for us to install a MegaSquirt, as it can be bought built and tested just like yours.


all i wonted to do was bring this product to others attention and that it has been done on a bmw and does work well, like anything you have a chose to do as you can afford, what ever that maybe Which is great. when will the results and some doco be available for us to see?

We all appreciate you taking the time to do so and are very interested in knowing the details of what can be achieved when you can make the time to tell us what is really involved. I will go through the documentation more than I have so far, but I have to say that so far it is hard for me to work out what features will able usable, ie what will or won't be possible if I stump up the money and buy one, which since you did not address my concerns in any of these posts (and neither does your site) I am asking. After all, I could just use a MegaSquirt as a somewhat underused AFM to MAP sensor converter or use Split Second's PSC-001 to do replace my AFM and edit the injection maps.

Cheers, Nick

[crunchy]

[QUOTE=genphreak]Steve, thanks for returning to us. As I had said before I have gone to your website looking for any info that was specific to Motronic or m30s, and there is no mention of them or even BMW anywhere I can find.

I appreciate you have put a lot of time and effort into the site and have a business to run but I would like to know things like what (apart from removal of the AFM) can be modified, adjusted and/or logged on my car specifically. Also, as I am planning a turbo or SC I'd like to know how your ECU can manage forced induction, especially how it can might get over Motronic's tendency to retard fuel flow when encountering positive manifold pressure (given that mapECU piggy-backs on the Motronic). Please don't accuse me of not having researched it when I have, have said as much -and further, take some time to appreciate that unlike you I stand to make nothing by spending any time posting information on public forums questioning this or getting pillared in any way.

Perhaps you do not quite appreciate that the name of your product and website (mapECU) does not exactly help consumers understand exactly what it is- for example in my case- in coming to terms with it, I expected it to be an ECU replacement and from what you said I expected it to have perhaps an alternative piggy back function. However I found out after digging around that in our case (e34 users), despite your claim it is simpler and easier to install than a MegaSquirt, it is actually not an ECU. It seems that you are actually suggesting we buy your product to map & tweak our AFMs only, and that your installation simplicity claim assumes that we only want to install it as such, not a complete or even partial ECU replacement.

Regarding your assertion that the 'Squirt is Experimental and DIY', you are correct they do say this on the sites. I was hoping you would avoid this as (like most things) the devil is in the detail on this. To clear this up, my concern is; given that Bowling and Grippo make nothing from the designs they provide to us I think it pretty rough of you to actually quote their disclaimers the way you do; in the same sentence (and in such a way) as to suggest your product is more mature. This is not just wrong, your justification is completely out of context.

For those that don't get what I am on about with my concern about Steve's (ab)use of MegaSquirt's reputation- the issue of experimental and DIY with open projects usually goes like this: An open project makes no profit to put in the bank and so cannot manage any risk from providing the information they do. They simply have to protect themselves from people that might sue them in the case that their free information, service or designs, etc. could be perceived to be incorrect in any way (regardless of whether it is), in the case that someone can a legal suit can be brought on them- let alone proved.

The disclaimer often goes as far as to say their product is experimental as they are not selling it commercially, and as there is no enterprise they need not be bound by the same laws (to protect consumers from the activities and claims of over-zealous or fly-by-night vendors) that a business is. Legally speaking this also has to be backed up in the site and other documentation in order to be valid.

In the early stages of such projects, they are usually experimental. However as a project matures it is tested and improved by an increasing number of people. The 'Squirt is, like many other collaborative projects, waaaayy past this point, though the developers have no interest in drumming up customers- so you see no ambit claims as we might well be forgiven for wondering about in your case Steve.

This is a quote from their site:
Disclaimer: This purchase is for the primary components of the MegaSquirt and MegaSquirt II EFI Controllers (PCB, MCU and MAP sensor) and interface and test accessories. The remainder of the components needed for this controller can be obtained from Digi-Key Order Form (http://www.msefi.com/msinfo/bom.htm). This unit is an experimental electronic fuel injector controller and not a commercial product. No warranties are expressed or implied. Neither Al Grippo nor Bruce Bowling, or any other participant, are responsible for the construction, installation, or targeted use of this unit. This unit has been tested on many engines, however, it is an experimental unit and the end-user assumes all responsibilities for its use, tuning, and application. Use common sense on application."

My point here is that it is wrong to use this to your commercial advantage the way you have. Someone (in this case me) will always take you to task and reputations are very hard to come by. I note with sadness that in your reply and other posts you have refused to concede that the 'Squirt is an accomplished performer in any way, yet the reality is that it has been installed in (perhaps many) hundreds (or thousands for all I know) of applications so is perhaps less experimental and more mature than yours. This has been fairly comprehensively documented online over many years (as I am sure you would be well aware before taking your product to market and investing in your closely-related Enterprise).


Not at all. I run a company myself. But forgive me but I've only just heard of mapECU and Performance Motor Research Limited. How do we know you won't sell a whole bunch of these things and then disappear as they have some nasty flaws that turn-up 6 months down the line and require replacement? I've seen a government provided R&D grant withdrawn and destroy a company, management stuffs up, the factory burns down, a competitor buys you to put you out of business, or the principles plain disappear for whatever reason or misfortune?

Do you make anything else? Looking into it online now I am wondering if PMR buy mapECU or was the company formed to sell it? Perhaps mapECU available as some other product before this? What install have been done, When was the first install? There is very little information available for us to be able to know what it is and work out how good it really is- let alone what bugs we might have to deal with and so on. I only say this as everything looks very new and your site has only just been put up. There are only 3 applications listed there. We have never seen your product before before but you say that mapECU has been around in NZ for 7 years? How old is the company? Perhaps you can explain the backgound for us a little?

Actually I believe profit can be positive and is a great way to maintain a product and delivery standards. However this does not prevent me from understadning and appreciating open-projects so I do not go round promoting my products (technology products) at the expense of such communities (such as Samba, OpenOffice and Mozilla) by doing (flammable) things like calling them Experimental even though they invariably protect themselves from over-zealous lawyers with many such disclaimers. They do however gain a reputation of performance which is what makes them successful (as opposed to promotion).

With all these projects you can tweak the source code yourself, make modifications and enhanacements, etc. but it does not mean it is in any way harder to install or use. What it does mean is that if they do disappear, consumers are not stuck with a buggy, unsupported or non-fixable product as consumers have all the details they need to fix any part of it.

Just because they are not bent on selling or marketing a product, defending it in the marketplace as traditional competitors would, does not mean you can go round treating it with such disrespect. I have seen less eloquent salespeople claiming that such projects are nowhere as good as (their) commercial product as they are hard for 'consumers to understand quickly' because these projects are often run by 'enthusiasts and academically minded people'. This is just one of the unfair generalisations people dream up- there are many of these around. There are also many enterprising types that start out by reverse-engineering and/or copying such open-projects, and release them commercially with claims of simplicity and support that 'cannot be expected' from the collaborative communities that support the version they copied.


Promotion aside, I don't doubt that yours is a great product and I agree not everyone wants to go to a lot of trouble to install these things. However few in the know really consider the 'Squirt to be experimental or DIY anymore as you can buy the ECU ready made and tested from over 6 reputable vendors on eBay alone. The practical reality is that the 'Squirt is actually a tried and tested performer and has been well documented as such publicly over the last few years. Your site has been online afor a few weeks and we've never seen it before. Even in an e34's case the 'Squirt is better documented than yours, so when you promote this notion of it being experimental and DIY in order to promote your product (that has only just become available), please tell us why we should believe your claims as opposed to just claiming it. Otherwise doing what you do seems patently unfair to me.

A lot of what you say relates to how your product is easier and simpler to install. Yet from our perspective, as I said before, it is practically as easy for us to install a MegaSquirt, as it can be bought built and tested just like yours.

Which is great. when will the results and some doco be available for us to see?

We all appreciate you taking the time to do so and are very interested in knowing the details of what can be achieved when you can make the time to tell us what is really involved. I will go through the documentation more than I have so far, but I have to say that so far it is hard for me to work out what features will able usable, ie what will or won't be possible if I stump up the money and buy one, which since you did not address my concerns in any of these posts (and neither does your site) I am asking. After all, I could just use a MegaSquirt as a somewhat underused AFM to MAP sensor converter or use Split Second's PSC-001 to do replace my AFM and edit the injection maps.

We have never seen your product before before but you say that mapECU has been around in NZ for 7 years? How old is the company? Perhaps you can explain the backgound for us a little?

http://www.3si.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-302401.html
http://corksport.com/store/category/53fz/mx3-engine.html
http://www.mvpmotorsports.com/Templates/frmTemplateH.asp?SubFolderID=936&SearchYN=N
http://www.mapecu.com/files/index.php
http://www.powerhouseracing.com/files/catalog.php?make=Toyota&model=Supra%20TT&catagory=Electronics
we also featured at sema 2004
this is all going no where fast, again thankyou for your time

[genphreak]

[quote=genphreak]
we also featured at sema 2004
this is all going no where fast, again thankyou for your timeFor sure it won't go anywhere unless you backup your claims.

Why again quote your website when it does not answer my questions or background the company or product?

I shouldn't have to say any of this and I wish I wasn't. What really pains me (apart from your approach) is I that I do believe your product is good and may well be great for many people and you probably do back it up well. Your site demonstrates this.

However there is nothing there that supports your suggestion that you have been in the market for years; that answers any of my questions about the installations that have been done and again, nothing Motronic/BMW related. I take the time to explain clearly and politely but all you do poke URLs and accuse me of converatism.

I just think if you do what you have in this and other forums, let alone openly dis open-projects in your field that have well-earned reputations, it might be wise to spend a bit of time covering your credibility and tech. We can all see why someone might put up a site and then go trawling forums all over the planet with wild claims about how great a product is and how it works on everything, everywhere.

Due to the lack of backup in your posts, I too wondered about this but was hoping (expecting) to have it all put to rest by your site and any other stuff I could dig up about your product. When I could not, then found all your online stuff was mainly recent promotional stuff, I made my comments and asked questions. If you weren't defaming a leading open project I probably would have let it rest: But you were, plus you were actively going round promoting your product in heaps of forums without even asking the forum mods first, everywhere I can find avoiding the detail and failing to clarify your claims.

Now given this and the fact that there are several other cheaper options you are aware of, even if you do like to promote them as crap or DIY or experimental (in comparison to yours), can we seriously not be expected to question your greatness?

AFAIC tell mapECU has nowhere near the history or reputation of Split Second, or MegaSquirt, let alone the documentation and support resources on or off-line so I fail to see why anyone can seriously believe you are not (perhaps) telling us fibs or are otherwise over-stating your claims, especially when given the opportunity to refute previous references to any of this you have only acted with incredulity.

So until that changes, I don't see many of us stumping up so much for a MAP to AFM converter that (appears) to be a relatively untested product, as we would clearly be experimenting with it on an M30 and could well be having some problems and at least need wide-band tuning and dyno time.

Another wild claim you made was that the mapECU was way better than a Split Second PSC-001 & map sensor, but again (and in a Motronic application), so I ask again, how so?

[crunchy]

. It think the main point to make it that we do not claim to be a full ECU, never have, and that we are a small company with a niche product, hence we are not well known - we don't have the marketing budget of the big guys.( as you seem to think we are) Also, one of our strengths is make a unit that is simple to install and easy to tune so it appeals to the 80% of people who just want a bit more performance and control without replacing the whole ECU.
nick, im up in aus afew times a year on business and i belive your in cbd in sydney so its not a problem to come pay you a visit and talk face to face and even play show and tell.
mapecu is part of my main business which is over 20 years old and i guess you wont to know about that one too!!!
as far as going onto other forums( which i have found you on afew also!!) and pushing it you got that one wrong big time,i like you enjoy playing with beamers which is why ive done this as i have the unit in my own 5 series and have great faith in it and great results. my main business is based on my reputation and i have never advertised in 20 years.
ive had emails from others on this forum that think youve gone abit over the top with this to which i agree, just out of interest are you running a megasquirt as you seem to know alot about the product which seems to as you say have a great following which is great so i gather you have played with it and i would be intersted to know your personal accounts of it, and gains in your own car?
your coment on having to use a dyno or a wideband o2 to tune is interesting, how do you tune and what do you use?
if you were serious about tuning any car you would use basic tools like a professional wideband, knock monitor and axcess to a dyno or risk damaging your pride and joy, how do you do it?

[emw525E34]

Good on you mate. Your mapecu is pretty nifty, great for older cars and forced induction mods. I am off those things these days.

Tweaking "hot-rod"PCs these days. Opteron 165 being clocked at 2.7Ghz air-cooled in SFF case!. SecondLifer here....

[emw525E34]

Nick,

I might want to shed some light on the comparision of piggy-back intake computers. As we all know, these tries to emulate/simulate the stock meter with its output. Now we all know that stock meters are grossly in-accurate and over age, gets worse or even eratic over the throttle range.

The main difference is in granularity of dynamic adjustment that depends on the stock ECU capabilities/limits as well. Take an example of my Apexi SAFC2, it has 500 rpm adjustment ranges from +30% to -30%. I have personally tested my car with apexi for weeks on a race track that I know very well and consistently run within 0.2 seconds consistency per lap, 85% of the time. Some of the ranges in the 3D map have wider tolerances than others, the trick in tuning is to find these ranges and exploit it for maximum use. Thats hard but doable, its the iteration in tuning. I was surprised by the ecu adaptation flexibility in the old Motronic 1.1.

This actually started by accident one day when I did a track day and decided to "call it a day after 3 laps". The current TopGear editor here who was my trackmate said "WHat are you saying ?. You got that whizzbang computer Gizmo in the car; TUNE IT and make your time!". I did just that and improved on my time. Then proceeded to tune it like I never had before. Segment transporder timing would have been great by back then, we had to settle with a good old 1/100 sec stopwatch.

From then I have 3 manual modes : Regular street power, Economy mode and TRack Mode. I really think a more accurate emulated meter, which I believe I am running can exploit the powerband better, especially with aftermarket modes and higher pressure FPU.

I suppose Steve's MAPECU gives even finer granularity. Remember the vanos and valve-tronic comparision BMW has now ?. It similar analogy.

[crunchy]

Nick,

I might want to shed some light on the comparision of piggy-back intake computers. As we all know, these tries to emulate/simulate the stock meter with its output. Now we all know that stock meters are grossly in-accurate and over age, gets worse or even eratic over the throttle range.

The main difference is in granularity of dynamic adjustment that depends on the stock ECU capabilities/limits as well. Take an example of my Apexi SAFC2, it has 500 rpm adjustment ranges from +30% to -30%. I have personally tested my car with apexi for weeks on a race track that I know very well and consistently run within 0.2 seconds consistency per lap, 85% of the time. Some of the ranges in the 3D map have wider tolerances than others, the trick in tuning is to find these ranges and exploit it for maximum use. Thats hard but doable, its the iteration in tuning. I was surprised by the ecu adaptation flexibility in the old Motronic 1.1.

This actually started by accident one day when I did a track day and decided to "call it a day after 3 laps". The current TopGear editor here who was my trackmate said "WHat are you saying ?. You got that whizzbang computer Gizmo in the car; TUNE IT and make your time!". I did just that and improved on my time. Then proceeded to tune it like I never had before. Segment transporder timing would have been great by back then, we had to settle with a good old 1/100 sec stopwatch.

From then I have 3 manual modes : Regular street power, Economy mode and TRack Mode. I really think a more accurate emulated meter, which I believe I am running can exploit the powerband better, especially with aftermarket modes and higher pressure FPU.

I suppose Steve's MAPECU gives even finer granularity. Remember the vanos and valve-tronic comparision BMW has now ?. It similar analogy.

cheers for that, finally someone understands which is all i was pointing to the web pages for or i would end up copy and pasting like most people do.
i would still love to know if "nick" has ever used a megasquirt or anything else for that matter which would give any of what he has said some sort of credability along with some prof as well as his tuning ability and not hear say
and thanks for the emails, cheers

[genphreak]

Great wisdoms indeed... thanks for taking the time to enlighten us with your experience with the S-AFC II. Are still running the stock M20 (or perhaps an M30) Bosch AFM and not a Map Sensor? If so, how did you go using Apexi's supplied AFM map- and was it much of a starting point?

A few questions popped into my mind as I read your post.

I imagine the higher pressure FPR you mention means you are out to get more fuel in so I am guessing you have found that can max out the stock injectors. Perhaps you have a more aggressive cam, but your 3 'hybrid' modes have me wondering- perhaps a lot of your track improvements centred on setting the torque/power generated at different rev ranges to suit your gearing- and the track,

Or-

was the trackwork more required for you to get enough time to write maps that effectively combatted Motronic's 'adaption' tendancy?(or both).

Did you encounter any adjustment limitations for a piggy-back setup on your M20 w Motronic 1.1? I am guessing it simply introduced variances that were difficult to combat without a lot of track time, let alone 500rpm adjustment increments. Btw, the S-AFCII now has firmware that reduces this to 200rpm increments.

If the maps one can achieve on a dyno are really only half the story-hence requiring track-testing. This is hard for most peeps without a lot of driving experience and laps. I am not a track racer, atm this is time I don't have... so perhaps a full ECU will be a better option anyway: No matter what, she's headed to the dyno when I get it done. If the Motronic makes things harder to setup, I think I would prefer a setup that controlled the injectors directly. My aim is really just to banish the AFM, perhaps gain flexibility over fuel types (ULP/PULP) and of course some extra performance or drivability (I haven't even tracked the car, and don't really intend to as it's just my daily driver).

Thanks again for the comments; :) Nick

[genphreak]

I'd love to see your product Steve- and thanks for offering to pop over when you're next here, but to be frank I'm not so interested as I am going to get a 'Squirt for my M30 now; I was more concerned about what you were saying about a well-established community project that many highly skilled people have contributed to over the years; one that is now a mature product sold by others for minimal profit but still with all the details available for free to help others and encourage future developments.

These people put their hearts and souls into such projects- as I know so many have with this one, so it pained me big time to see you describe it the way you did. I don't accuse you of anything other than what I've stated, which may be over the top to some here (no-one likes to read long posts on any forum), but it is not to me and there are hundreds of small and big company people with great technology products making such mistakes and getting away with it.

Now I love my company's product- but there are many others out there with great merit that cannot be dismissed unfairly or out of context. I encourage my staff not to slam other products at all; instead to understand them and know our strengths well, as doing so helps us to stay ahead. This is not a comment about you, it is just what we do to avoid misunderstandings.

Re sensors and tuning, I don't think you quite got what I was suggesting.
:) Nick

[crunchy]

nick, doesnt that mean you have to use a DYNO and WIDEBAND to tune with? and all you wont to do is banish the afm! hmmm i wonder what else can do that? i think your reply above answers everything i need to know, you have never done this before, amazing

My aim is really just to banish the AFM, perhaps gain flexibility over fuel types (ULP/PULP) and of course some extra performance or drivability ( quote nick!!)



isnt it strange how others can understand the product and you can understand the post on the safc!! you still havent told us all about your tuning ability based on your coments, since australia is one of the biggest producers in the world of after market ecu's i thought you would know all about them also
as i said you havent shown any credibility based on your coments about megasquirt and any other product apart from the fact yourve never used one
like i asked, how do you tune if you dont use a dyno or wideband?