Winter Driving and Tire Wear

[rreimund]

Ok.. So I just got the E34 a few weeks ago. The car came with two sets of stock 15" Basketweaves... one set off the car with worn ContiTourings.. and the other set on the car with Nokian Hakkapeliitta NRWs. Now here's my problem:

Couple of weeks ago when it rained some, I found myself fishtailing ALL over the place. Granted, I'm not exactly easy on the throttle, but sometimes even just going up a hill in a straight line I get the rear end all over the place. I'm pretty certain I've got an LSD (tested it on the side of the road with right side on gravel and left on pavement, and I got chirps coming from the pavement side and I took off without wheelspin) and I'm running those Hakkapeliittas. I learned to drive years ago in a 1977 Chevy Caprice and that thing wasn't nearly as loose in the rear as this is. I would have thought with the BMW having a higher percentage of the weight over the rear it would be better. Is this common for E34s?


My next question is sort of related, so I'll not create a separate post. The Nokians as well as the Conti's exhibit a similar wear pattern. They tend to wear more pronounced on the outside edges (both front and rear). Could this account for the fishtailing? On the Nokians I've got at least an eigth of an inch before I hit the wear bars on the tires, but the outside edge has nearly no sipes left. Could this account for my poor wet performance (haven't had snow yet, so don't know how good/bad that'll be.)

I'm debating if I should spring for some new Nokians this year or if I can just accept that the car handles this poorly in the poor weather and just hold off until next winter.

[Anthony (M5 in Calgary)]

Ok.. So I just got the E34 a few weeks ago. The car came with two sets of stock 15" Basketweaves... one set off the car with worn ContiTourings.. and the other set on the car with Nokian Hakkapeliitta NRWs.

I'm debating if I should spring for some new Nokians this year or if I can just accept that the car handles this poorly in the poor weather and just hold off until next winter.

I too am using Nokian NRW in 225/55R16. They have at least 50% tread left and recent snow and ice conditions have proved them to be less than the best. Prior winters were OK but this is their 5th winter. I would say your tires don't have enough tread left to cope with any amount of snow with only 1/8" above the bars.

As for the wear, I would say the tires have been run with too little pressure. The stock suggestion of 29F/33R is too low for cars of this weight IMO. I'd run at least 32F/36R - maybe more. Just keep the 4PSI difference F/R. I run mine at 36F/40R and they are wearing squarely.

I'm debating a new set of Pilot Alpins for my alternate set of 17" rims, ditching the 16s. Better for ice and dry/cold roads.

[Jay 535i]

The Nokians as well as the Conti's exhibit a similar wear pattern. They tend to wear more pronounced on the outside edges (both front and rear). Could this account for the fishtailing?

Your tires are underinflated. They should be ~41psi all around -- COLD.

Underinflation is why they're wearing that way. There's not enough air pressure pushing the center of the contact patch to the road, and the sidewalls are doing all the work, wearing down the tread immediately under them.

Note that Nokian warns that ice and snow traction will degrade significantly after the first 50% has worn away, so your tires are already way past their prime.

Time for four new tires, methinks.

[rreimund]

thanks for the advice.. I'm glad it's not just the dynamics of the car.

That said, let me be clearer... when I said outside edges I mean of the car.. so the wheels on the right wear more on the right and the wheels on the left wear more on the left (not both edges of a given wheel. )

But I am running the pressure per the recommendation.. so I'll increase it per the bimmer.info recomendations. :D

[Jay 535i]

thanks for the advice.. I'm glad it's not just the dynamics of the car.

That said, let me be clearer... when I said outside edges I mean of the car.. so the wheels on the right wear more on the right and the wheels on the left wear more on the left (not both edges of a given wheel. )

But I am running the pressure per the recommendation.. so I'll increase it per the bimmer.info recomendations. :D

Hmm, that may be a camber problem. A full alignment never hurts :)

Yeah, I was also surprised to hear from others on this forum that 41psi is the way to go all 'round, rather than the BMW or tire manufacturer specifications. I've had good results since.

Also, I see you live in NY. Don't forget that all gases contract in the cold, so it's normal to have your tire pressures drop when the winter comes. Top them off when they're cold to 41psi and you'll be good.

[rreimund]

That's what I thought (Camber problem)
I usually do a full alignment anytime I replace tires, so I'll be doing that anyway when I get the new tires.. Just wanted to make sure it wasn't something other than that that I need to be aware of.

[632 Regal]

most tires (winter) have a different compound on the first 1/8th inch and once you wear past that you get to a harder material that dont grip anything. Once they wear a little even though they have life left have gone past their useful life.

if that makes any sence.

[Jay 535i]

most tires (winter) have a different compound on the first 1/8th inch and once you wear past that you get to a harder material that dont grip anything. Once they wear a little even though they have life left have gone past their useful life.

if that makes any sence.

Yeah, that's what I said earlier about the Nokians really being toast even though there's ~50% tread depth left. The soft rubber is gone, and the micro sipes are gone. It's now an all-season :)

[rreimund]

Yeah, that's what I said earlier about the Nokians really being toast even though there's ~50% tread depth left. The soft rubber is gone, and the micro sipes are gone. It's now an all-season :)

A piss poor all season at that!

[Tiger]

That's end of life for tires... I wouldn't gamble anymore on worn tires. Yes, that explains what you got now... I would check your alignments for the tire wear problem... and the fishtailing is usually bad shocks.

[rreimund]

Tiger,

The shocks according to the previous owner are brand new boge's.. within the last few months.. but I'll confirm that.

[DueyT]

RR, is your car lowered? Often, the wear pattern if for rear tires to wear on the inboard edges more than the outboard edges, especially if cars are lowered. Your wear sounds to be the opposite over what is normally experienced. A four-wheel alignment would not at all hurt.

Cheers,
Duey

[rreimund]

nope, not to my knowledge... bone stock everything.. depending on what I find, I may lower it (i.e. if I find that the shocks are in fact in need of replacing, I'll just get some Bilstein sports and get some H&R springs or something similar and just lower it.
Either way, when I get the new Hakk RSIs it's getting a 4-wheel alignment... per everyone's recommendations.

[Jay 535i]

Either way, when I get the new Hakk RSIs it's getting a 4-wheel alignment... per everyone's recommendations.

Hey, I'm gettin' those, too! On Saturday.

Who do you guys trust for a competent four-wheel alignment?

[Kalevera]

Argh, you can't GET a 4 wheel alignment on an E34 -- there's nothing in the rear to adjust unless the car has an eccentric bushing/aftermarket kit or otherwise modified trailing arms.

Asking a shop for a 4 wheel alignment will have them laughing all the way to the bank, so to speak: the only adjustable spec on the E34 is front toe. Any shop with modern equipment will offer a front/two wheel alignment that provides specs (usually before and after) on all typical variables for front and rear. They'll adjust the toe and read it again.

Add significant weight to the trunk when driving the car in the snow -- a few 50lb sand bags, engine blocks, whatever can be found.

best, whit

[DueyT]

Argh, you can't GET a 4 wheel alignment on an E34 -- there's nothing in the rear to adjust unless the car has an eccentric bushing/aftermarket kit or otherwise modified trailing arms.

Asking a shop for a 4 wheel alignment will have them laughing all the way to the bank, so to speak: the only adjustable spec on the E34 is front toe. Any shop with modern equipment will offer a front/two wheel alignment that provides specs (usually before and after) on all typical variables for front and rear. They'll adjust the toe and read it again.

Add significant weight to the trunk when driving the car in the snow -- a few 50lb sand bags, engine blocks, whatever can be found.

best, whit
True Whit...I should have more precisely said verify all four wheels' alignment to ensure nothing is badly broken on the rear end. It still is strange hearing about tires wearing more on the outboard side of a tire on the rear of an E34...

Cheers,
Duey

[Jay 535i]

Argh, you can't GET a 4 wheel alignment on an E34 -- there's nothing in the rear to adjust unless the car has an eccentric bushing/aftermarket kit or otherwise modified trailing arms.

Asking a shop for a 4 wheel alignment will have them laughing all the way to the bank, so to speak: the only adjustable spec on the E34 is front toe. Any shop with modern equipment will offer a front/two wheel alignment that provides specs (usually before and after) on all typical variables for front and rear. They'll adjust the toe and read it again.

Add significant weight to the trunk when driving the car in the snow -- a few 50lb sand bags, engine blocks, whatever can be found.

best, whit

So the front can be adjusted for toe only? Not camber? Hmm, okay. Thanks for that money-saving tip :)