Today's 'experience' at the dealer [Archive]

Jay 535i

12-02-2005, 01:10 PM

First, I will preface this by asking that you not reply to tell me I'm stupid and naive. I know that I am stupid and naive. This is not news to me.

So, I have some parts I'd like installed and I went to the dealer because I wanted it done quickly and competently, and figured it was a small job so their atmospheric labor rate wouldn't hurt too bad (yes, I know...stupid and naive).

These prices are all in Canadian dollars.

What I wanted done:

Replace brake light switch, purchased at dealer for $23
Install front turn signal lenses, purchased on ebay for $25
Install exterior door trim piece, purchased at dealer for $29
Install wiper drive rod, purchased at dealer for $15

So far, so good. I was relieved to discover their parts prices are reasonable -- at least for the stuff I needed.

I figured doing all of the above would take 60-90 minutes, billed at $107/hr.

I watched the guy 'work' on my car.

After 90 minutes of him scratching his head with the hood up, the service women I'd dealt with came to me and told me they were just getting started (?). And she said she wanted to give me a complete labor quote so there'd be no surprises.

Her quote:

Install wiper drive rod: 2.5hrs
Install front turn signal lenses: 2hrs
Replace brake switch: 1hr
Replace door trim: 0.5hr

Total: 6hrs; $647 + tax

Don't worry. I told her where to go (politely) and demanded my car back. I did not have to pay for any of that.

But what the hell? I asked her what was going on, and to explain to me exactly how this was a six hour job. She told me that it isn't, but that they go by the 'book rate'. If the book says that doing XYZ takes 2 hours, then that's what I get billed for, even if it takes 5 minutes. According to her, everybody does this and it is ethical.

I told her that I've never encountered anybody that works that way, but I'm willing to accept that perhaps everybody (every dealer, that is -- my indy mechanic never did this) does it that way, and perhaps she's only following the rules. But that does not make it ethical, and I don't understad, I told her, how you can charge a customer 6 hours' labor for a 90 minute job and call it ethical!

End of story. I'll know better next time, as I should have this time. Just wanted to share.

632 Regal

12-02-2005, 01:16 PM

sounds normal, some Indys charge a hourly rate that is higher than the dealers but only charge for actual time working on the car, not for lunch, smoke or doobage breaks.

guess your gonna try to do some of this stuff yourself now huh?

Edit: just because you go to the dealer DOES NOT mean the job will be done right.

Jay 535i

12-02-2005, 01:17 PM

sounds normal, some Indys charge a hourly rate that is higher than the dealers but only charge for actual time working on the car, not for lunch, smoke or doobage breaks.

guess your gonna try to do some of this stuff yourself now huh?

I already did. I only turned to the dealer after discovering my own inabilities. Needless to say, I'm going to try harder now.

Anthony (M5 in Calgary)

12-02-2005, 01:31 PM

I already did. I only turned to the dealer after discovering my own inabilities. Needless to say, I'm going to try harder now.

Yup, stealers suck (the money out of your pocket) and using them is no guarantee of proper repairs.

Here's a tip for installing the front turn signals:

After removing the old unit (3 screws, one points at the outside of the car and two point to the front), notch the plastic housing on the new assembly where the screw fits toward the outside and partially install the screw in the fender. You can then slide the new lens back over the screw instead of fumbling with it.

To fit the other two screws, use some masking tape to hold the screw to the screwdriver - this will help you get them started and not drop them into the bottom of the fender.

Jay 535i

12-02-2005, 01:32 PM

Yup, stealers suck (the money out of your pocket) and using them is no guarantee of proper repairs.

Here's a tip for installing the front turn signals:

After removing the old unit (3 screws, one points at the outside of the car and two point to the front), notch the plastic housing on the new assembly where the screw fits toward the outside and partially install the screw in the fender. You can then slide the new lens back over the screw instead of fumbling with it.

To fit the other two screws, use some masking tape to hold the screw to the screwdriver - this will help you get them started and not drop them into the bottom of the fender.

Cheers, Anthony. Those are GREAT tips. But I can't get past step 1: remove the old unit :(

FWIW, I'm not surprised that the dealer is expensive. I saw the hourly rate posted on the wall and I agreed to it. But to charge 6 hours' labour for a 90 minute job can only be called unethical, stealing, lying, cheating, whatever. Not a good thing, and BMW should be ashamed of the way they gouge their loyal customers. The free coffee and comfortable lounge were very nice, but hardly a consolation if you're going to STEAL from me! And charging somebody for something and delivering 1/3 of it is stealing.

Black 535i

12-02-2005, 01:37 PM

[QUOTE=jaylebo]Cheers, Anthony. Those are GREAT tips. But I can't get past step 1: remove the old unit :(

FWIW, I'm not surprised that the dealer is expensive. I saw the hourly rate posted on the wall and I agreed to it. But to charge 6 hours' labour for a 90 minute job can only be called unethical, stealing, lying, cheating, whatever. Not a good thing, and BMW should be ashamed of the way they gouge their loyal customers. The free coffee and comfortable lounge were very nice, but hardly a consolation if you're going to STEAL from me! And charging somebody for something and delivering 1/3 of it is stealing.

DaCan23

12-02-2005, 01:39 PM

I'm surprised the Stealer would let you bring parts in. Usually in that case they wont warranty the work. Friend had this Honda stealer that he could bring parts too. Either way wouldnt trust someone that wont warranty their work.

Jay 535i

12-02-2005, 01:40 PM

BMW Autohaus, at 480 Steeles Avenue West in Toronto.

I should mention that I was at a different BMW dealer last week, and I asked them to install FOUR lower door trim pieces for me. They did, for free, in about 10 minutes. This dealer wanted to charge me 30 minutes labour to install ONE.

Anthony (M5 in Calgary)

12-02-2005, 01:43 PM

Cheers, Anthony. Those are GREAT tips. But I can't get past step 1: remove the old unit :(

FWIW, I'm not surprised that the dealer is expensive. I saw the hourly rate posted on the wall and I agreed to it. But to charge 6 hours' labour for a 90 minute job can only be called unethical, stealing, lying, cheating, whatever. Not a good thing, and BMW should be ashamed of the way they gouge their loyal customers. The free coffee and comfortable lounge were very nice, but hardly a consolation if you're going to STEAL from me! And charging somebody for something and delivering 1/3 of it is stealing.

My family crest has the latin phrase "nunquam persolvo pro opus" (never pay for labour).

Don't be discouraged if you at first are stymied by a repair. Try using a small mirror to help you see the parts you need to remove and get a nice work light. Once the headlight covers are off and you get the washer reservoirs out of the way the turn signals are a straight shot.

Jay 535i

12-02-2005, 01:54 PM

My family crest has the latin phrase "nunquam persolvo pro opus" (never pay for labour).

Don't be discouraged if you at first are stymied by a repair. Try using a small mirror to help you see the parts you need to remove and get a nice work light. Once the headlight covers are off and you get the washer reservoirs out of the way the turn signals are a straight shot.

Thanks for that.

You're absolutely right. I don't mean to make excuses, but part of the trouble is that:

1) my garage is COLD, and a very unpleasant place to be in the wintertime
2) my garage is DARK, and I don't have any auxilliary lighting
3) my garage is PUBLIC, and I get dirty looks when I work on my car down there
4) I have only a basic toolkit

When it's nice and warm outside, I don't mind goofing around on the driveway, but right now I'd just as soon pay someone else to do it. Just not if they're gonna charge me $600!

I've always been happy to pay a fair price for a job well done, but those dealer prices are not fair.

How do you get the washer resevoirs out, anyway? I've loosened the top screws, but then what do I do? Just pull up? Will the fluid stay in? I don't want to make a mess if I can help it.

Anthony (M5 in Calgary)

12-02-2005, 02:07 PM

Thanks for that.

You're absolutely right. I don't mean to make excuses, but part of the trouble is that:

1) my garage is COLD, and a very unpleasant place to be in the wintertime
2) my garage is DARK, and I don't have any auxilliary lighting
3) my garage is PUBLIC, and I get dirty looks when I work on my car down there
4) I have only a basic toolkit

When it's nice and warm outside, I don't mind goofing around on the driveway, but right now I'd just as soon pay someone else to do it. Just not if they're gonna charge me $600!

I've always been happy to pay a fair price for a job well done, but those dealer prices are not fair.

How do you get the washer resevoirs out, anyway? I've loosened the top screws, but then what do I do? Just pull up? Will the fluid stay in? I don't want to make a mess if I can help it.

I feel your pain. My garage is also cold and dark but at least it is private. Still, I get strange looks from the neighbors whenever I'm doing repairs, especially when the car looked like this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/interalian/M5%20repair%202005/driverfront.jpg

To get the reservoirs out, just take out the top screws and the bottoms are held in slots in the bodywork. The fluid will have to be drained (syphon) and then you just take out the pump motor. The motor just slips into a rubber grommet and you can leave the hoses and wires attached.

Watch out for the low washer fluid sensor - it has a D shaped exterior which is meant to align with a ridge on the side of the washer tank. If the sensor gets flipped, the low fluid warning will stay on regardless of the quantity of fluid in the tank.

632 Regal

12-02-2005, 02:09 PM

The front turn signals are more intimidating than in reality. You will have to work blind for most of the bolts/screw. I used a magnetic screwdriver for the side screw and was real careful to watch where it falls :) Once I got the airbox out of the way it wasnt all that bad.

Jay 535i

12-02-2005, 02:20 PM

To get the reservoirs out, just take out the top screws and the bottoms are held in slots in the bodywork. The fluid will have to be drained (syphon) and then you just take out the pump motor. The motor just slips into a rubber grommet and you can leave the hoses and wires attached.

Watch out for the low washer fluid sensor - it has a D shaped exterior which is meant to align with a ridge on the side of the washer tank. If the sensor gets flipped, the low fluid warning will stay on regardless of the quantity of fluid in the tank.

You already lost me.

If the hoses remain attached, why does the fluid have to be drained? What if I don't?

Take out the pump motor? Take it out of what?

Flip the sensor? What does that mean? Flip it over, or flip it on, or what?

I respect and appreciate that you're trying to help me, but your instructions presuppose a certain level of familiary/confidence that I don't have. You may as well be sending me instructions for DIY neurosurgery.

Paul in NZ

12-02-2005, 02:43 PM

Jay 535i

12-02-2005, 02:48 PM

the wires and hoses remain attatched to the pump unit.
The pump unit installs into the washer resevoir via a friction fit into rubber grommets in the tanks
You can just pull the pumps out but you will dump the washer flid over the floor
Make sure you reinstall the fluid level sensor the right way up which is indicated by the ridge on the tank and presumably a groove in the sensor.

That helps. Thanks.

When I feel like braving the cold, I'll give it another try.

I've tried three times so far, and still haven't racked up 2 hours! I bet, in the end, I'll manage it and still have come in under 2 hours.

Beez540

12-02-2005, 03:20 PM

man... I'm sorry. Those "book rate" hours sound a bit high. There's always a minimum of .5, but some of the others sound a bit ridiculous. I guess I'm lucky, I found a good Indy who rates at $67 hour, and he gives me a deal on parts. It's also nice when he shows me his invoice on parts.

granit_silber

12-02-2005, 03:22 PM

Jay,

I hate that for ya! I remember this time last year the green lights went away (shortly after purchase) and I called my local dealer and asked how much for an oil service. I choked (literally) on my drink when they told me a minimum of $100USD.
Hope your repairs go well and just remember that even if you break something else and have to replace it you're still spending WAY less than you would have at the dealer.
-ashley

Jay 535i

12-02-2005, 03:29 PM

Thanks guys for your show of support :)

Yup, those guys suck. But I want to make it really clear that I happily (well, okay, not happily -- willingly) went along with their $107/hr rate. I accept that as part of the dealer experience. But those inflated book rates are unbelieveable, as is the service department's assertion that, because the number's printed in some book, this is ethical/acceptable.

I have no tools, no training and no experience, and *I* could do this job in less than 6 hours. Less than 3, probably. What they are doing is just plain stealing, IMHO.

I can't imagine what the book says about the time it takes to do a real job. Probably measured in weeks!

Zeuk in Oz

12-02-2005, 04:30 PM

Just another of life's experiences that add up to its coloured tapestry.
At least you had the presence of mind to ask for a quote. Only your pride was dented, not you wallet ! :D

Jay 535i

12-02-2005, 04:50 PM

Just another of life's experiences that add up to its coloured tapestry.
At least you had the presence of mind to ask for a quote. Only your pride was dented, not you wallet ! :D

Actually, the service rep insisted I get a quote. I guess she's seen what can happen without one. She certainly would have today. I would have simply offered $107 x Hours ACTUALLY Worked, and refused to pay the rest.

mattyb

12-02-2005, 05:12 PM

My stealers not to bad but there are times when i question him hard about things and give him a very hard time. I told him when i first went there that i'm not gonna just pay for whatever and leave it at that. I make him print every thing that they do, not just the receipt. I make them do a full itemisation(time) of the work before its done including inspection 1 and 2. I told him I dont want his yuppie coffee and beautiful people muffins added onto my bill cause I aleady had breakfast. Maybe its the same over there but when u have work done they ring a few days later to do a survey on your visit and every 6 months u get a call from an independant research firm like AC nielson. I go hard when they do this and as a result the last time i was at the stealer the owner came down from his office and asked me of my comments regarding the labour charges. I told him the guy who wipes the queens ass doesnt even charge $100 an hour and the next time they **** up, which they have before, ill charge them $100 an hour back for every hour I have to go without my car. I stay and time the whole operation when stuff gets done now and pay only actual time worked. If enough folks give them the news they seem to listen.

Jay 535i

12-02-2005, 05:17 PM

Akhil

12-02-2005, 05:25 PM

Hey Guys,

When we are talking about dealer. I want to add my exp. with dealer here in Houston TX. After I bought my car 3 yrs ago, its AC wasn't working. I didn't wanna take it to dealer, b'coz I knew they charges too $$$$$ high. So I took it to an indy shop. He said its he will have to fill freeon into the system to check for leak and it will be $50 for that. No fix, just check. I said ok. after 20 min he came back and said you have got a leak in evvaperator and we can't fix it. Sounds weired, right? If you can't fix it then why to check it. He should have told me that before, right? So I had to pay him $50, and got nothing fixed.

Then I took it to dealer, they said they won't trust what the other shop told me and they will have to recheck it and about $150 charge for that. If I get the fixing work don't there then they will creadit that $150 towaords work. That sounded fair to me and I didn't have any other option either. So I ageered. They kept my car for week and half and and they could not find any leak or rather say where the leak is. I talk to service manager and asked him, if you guys can't find the leak they who else will. You guys are suppose to be specialized in BMW. right? Then very next day morning I got call from service personal and he said they found the leak, its in the low pressur and high pressure lines and both have to be replaced. Doesn't it sound weired. if leak is right on the line which is the most accessible part pf AC system then what have they been doing for week and a half?

Any way so he gave me estimate about $1300 (parts+labor), otherwise I had to pay him $150 and take my car as it it. I didn't have much choise, can't drive without AC in Houston 100+ deegre. So I said ok. So they did the work and got my car back in 2 days. It was cooling good, as it was cooling after I got feron fill by indy shop, but slowly ran out in a week. I drove the car for a week and ran out of freon again. Same problem even after paying $1300.

I took car back to dealer. He said they will check it agian. This time diff technician( I think) work on my car. And with an hour I got a call from serv. personal and said they found the leak. Its in evaporator. I told him that in very first place but they didn't trust indy shop check. So what my guess is first time they replaced parts that wasn't broken and charged me for that.

Now when he was writing est. for evap. change, I show that paper about $1800 (parts+labor). That is more than the price I paid for whole car.

But the good news here, Paper say at bottom, Cost to Customer = $0.00.

Since then, my AC is running great.

He said I don't have to pay any thing for this (evap. change) work and they took the responsibily of bad diagnosis first time and they will pay for it.

So if I would have got the evap. replaced first time I would have paid $1800 but I paid only $1300 and got my new Evap. + new AC lines (both).

I am very sure no matter how big indy shop is, would not do any thing like that. They don't even take responsibily of some thing worth $10 if they brake while working on your car. Do you ageere?

So the moral of my story, dealer charges more but not alway be bad or good. It depends on what kind of work we are getting done. But every little thing, you can't take your car to dealer. If you do then your BMW will be called
(B)roak (M)y (W)allet.

It didn't brake my wallet yet. LOL.........

Just wated to share.

Akhil

Rigmaster

12-02-2005, 05:49 PM

ScottyWM

12-02-2005, 05:51 PM

Maybe there is a board member close by that can get with you and give you some help and moral support?? Always nice to have someone show you how to do some of this stuff the first time.

Jay 535i

12-02-2005, 06:33 PM

Jay,

stick with us here, we'll get you through this. And once you've done a little bit of work on your car, you'll feel more confident to try the "harder" job.

Book labor rate has always been, and will always be, a sticky subject. It sort of makes sense, but then again- it runs contrary to common sense.... Yet another one of the things that prompted me to start working on my own cars.

Bret.

Thank you, thank you <sniff, sniff>

Scotty, Bruno helps me out regularly, and I'm very grateful for his help. Also, this board is a big help. So I do have support.

Bret, thanks man, I know you will :) And I'll keep at it. Its just really unpleasant tinkering around in the cold and dark. Fortunately there's nothing my car needs that can't wail 'til spring, except that brake light switch...

I get the idea with book rate labor. It does make sense. It ought to promote fair play among garages and save customers from incompetent mechanics. But all those benefits are negated if the book rate is inflated 2-3 times over reality. So instead of letting mechanics rip you off randomly, they've written a ripoff into EVERY deal. Nice.

Doing this **** is also a bummer because I don't have the right tools. Sure, with the $100 here and there I spend at garages, I could gradually purchase the things I need. But it would take a long time -- I'd still have to borrow tools or fudge around with the wrong ones for a while. And I live in an apartment so I don't even have a garage of my own to store tools. I sure as hell can't store them in the apartment. My wife said so. So, when I get $100 in my pocket, its like "Do I give it to a mechanic to make my baby a little sweeter, or buy that shiny new torque wrench and look for stuff to, I dunno, torque down, I guess." You see what I mean?

Rigmaster

12-02-2005, 06:58 PM

Thank you, thank you <sniff, sniff>

Scotty, Bruno helps me out regularly, and I'm very grateful for his help. Also, this board is a big help. So I do have support.

Bret, thanks man, I know you will :) And I'll keep at it. Its just really unpleasant tinkering around in the cold and dark. Fortunately there's nothing my car needs that can't wail 'til spring, except that brake light switch...

I get the idea with book rate labor. It does make sense. It ought to promote fair play among garages and save customers from incompetent mechanics. But all those benefits are negated if the book rate is inflated 2-3 times over reality. So instead of letting mechanics rip you off randomly, they've written a ripoff into EVERY deal. Nice.

Doing this **** is also a bummer because I don't have the right tools. Sure, with the $100 here and there I spend at garages, I could gradually purchase the things I need. But it would take a long time -- I'd still have to borrow tools or fudge around with the wrong ones for a while. And I live in an apartment so I don't even have a garage of my own to store tools. I sure as hell can't store them in the apartment. My wife said so. So, when I get $100 in my pocket, its like "Do I give it to a mechanic to make my baby a little sweeter, or buy that shiny new torque wrench and look for stuff to, I dunno, torque down, I guess." You see what I mean?

Jay,

you should be able to find a really good set of basic tools for ~$100- skip the torque wrench until you really need one- and even then you might be able to borrow one- or do what I do and get a $20 cheapie which is fine for 99% of the crap you'll be using it for anyway.

Search the board for some tool threads- there's some good info out there about what sort of assortment to start with. Sears is your friend here, buy one of those 100-150 piece sets on sale and you've got enough tools to do ALOT of stuff to your car.

Don't worry about asking around here for help and/or advice, there are plenty of people who don't mind telling you what to do...... :)

Bret.

Jay 535i

12-02-2005, 07:22 PM

Jay,

you should be able to find a really good set of basic tools for ~$100- skip the torque wrench until you really need one- and even then you might be able to borrow one- or do what I do and get a $20 cheapie which is fine for 99% of the crap you'll be using it for anyway.

Search the board for some tool threads- there's some good info out there about what sort of assortment to start with. Sears is your friend here, buy one of those 100-150 piece sets on sale and you've got enough tools to do ALOT of stuff to your car.

Don't worry about asking around here for help and/or advice, there are plenty of people who don't mind telling you what to do...... :)

Bret.

Well, fortunately, I take after my father. He's now deceased, but he left me a whole garage full of tools he never figured out how to use. They're all basic, mind you, since my mother wouldn't let him have anything heavy or pointy. He has about a dozen of those Sears sets, so I'm all good for sockets 'n' such. It's just that those tools are 20 minutes away at my mother's house, and I can't store them where I live.

The tools I don't have are the specialty tools. Take, for example, spring compressors. You may only use them once every few years, but you can't do certain jobs without them. There are lots of tools like that, and at the moment (or until recently) my car needed them all, if only once.

Also, there are unknowns and surprises that a rookie isn't equipped to deal with on his own.

Another example here. Bruno pressurized my brake system to flush out the fluid, and in the process the grometts holding the resevoir in place failed and sprayed brake fluid on everthing. If that had happened to me while I was trying to change brake fluid for my first time, I would have not known what failed, not understood why it failed, not known how to fix it or even known that those grommets aren't supposed to feel like Gummi Bears. I wouldn't even have known that it was imperitive to get that fluid OFF THE CAR NOW or else ruin the paint.

Another one. To get my shocks off the car (probably been on there since Anthony Michael Hall had a job) he had to do extensive hammering with myriad heavy implements, problem solving along the way with parts that weren't behaving as expected. Only his experience helped him. I'd have been lost alone.

I dunno how long it took you guys to become comfortable working on your cars. I'd be interested to know, but my guess is that you've been working on cars since you could walk. I've been loving and washing cars since that age, but not fixing them. My dad was a bit of a dunderhead tool-wise.

Dave M

12-02-2005, 07:49 PM

Dear Jay,

Don't get discouraged. Many learn on their own with few proper tools. When my dad passed away, he left me with lots of carpentry tools. Tried em on my first cars, but they all ended up looking like cabinets. I'll even admit that at 18, with my first VW in Toronto, I used a tennis court and planter box for a 'spring compressor' (figure that one out). I learned by improvising and making many big mistakes, but its been fun and now I'm somewhat comfy with the e34. I'm currently well over my head with my engine replacement project.

Looking for any excuse to help,

Dave M

Akhil

12-02-2005, 07:57 PM

Hey guys, nobody read my dealer exp. . its long. right.? Give me you comments. what do you think?

Akhil

Zeuk in Oz

12-02-2005, 08:03 PM

Just goes to show that there are good and bad dealers and good and bad independents.

ryan roopnarine

12-02-2005, 08:14 PM

He said its he will have to fill freeon into the system to check for leak and it will be $50 for that. No fix, just check. I said ok. after 20 min he came back and said you have got a leak in evvaperator and we can't fix it. Sounds weired, right? If you can't fix it then why to check it. He should have told me that before, right? So I had to pay him $50, and got nothing fixed.

the evaporator is going to be one of the most expensive, and time consuming singular jobs to do on any modern car (not like an engine rebuild or tranny rebuild, i mean).. i did my heater core a week ago consider 3+ hours labor to get to the heater core, plus another 1/2 hour or hour to get the evaporator out, as it is behind the core. double the labor to put it back in, so its about 6-8 hour job. im not surpised that some places would not do a heater core or evaporator. a decent shop might not charge you if all they have to do is hook up gauges, but many will. $50 doesn't sound out of line for a test like that, even if they could not "fix" it as you say. its up to you to find a place with a diagnostic charging rate/policy to your liking.

I took car back to dealer. He said they will check it agian. This time diff technician( I think) work on my car. And with an hour I got a call from serv. personal and said they found the leak. Its in evaporator. I told him that in very first place but they didn't trust indy shop check. So what my guess is first time they replaced parts that wasn't broken and charged me for that.

they screwed up

So if I would have got the evap. replaced first time I would have paid $1800 but I paid only $1300 and got my new Evap. + new AC lines (both).

you got lucky, and you have one less thing to worry about.

I am very sure no matter how big indy shop is, would not do any thing like that. They don't even take responsibily of some thing worth $10 if they brake while working on your car. Do you ageere?

10-16 year old plastic will break if you work on it. methinks you don't work on your e34 all that much, otherwise you'd likely break a lot of plastic stuff unintentionally, and have to replace it. the indy in your case diagnosed your problem properly, it would have been good if you had called around and found a place that was willing to undertake something that labor intensive.

Akhil

12-02-2005, 09:49 PM

I fully agree with you ryan.

With my story I didn't mean to say any thing like indy is bad or dealer is bad. Just wated to share.

Good thing about Indy

1# They were technically sound enough to find right problem
2# If they were not comfortable doing that job they told me they can do it rather then opening it and messing it up.

Bad thing about indy,
1# they said they don't work on problem diaganosed by other mechanic, that apply to every mechanic, so if they don't fix all kinds problems in AC then they could have told me that I can diaganos for you but won't fix if this, this or this part has problem.

Now About dealer

1# Their technician could not find leak in week and half what an indy did in 20 min (So sad for them)

2# If they could not find problem, how can they just replace any thing just to show the customer that they fixed the problem. (So sad for customers, mean us)

Good thing about dealer

1# Since they charge so much and so high to every one, they can do this to one customer to keed their reputation in town and to avoid any leagal problem which can cost them more. So if the messup they will take the responsibily. Right?

Any way I was not talking about platic thing as you said. I was just giving an example. I know those platic parts breaks and I do that always while working on my Car. LOL........ Its fun. Right? ..... As long as the part I broke is not very expansive. Right?

So the bottom line is every time we walk into a new indy or dealer we take chance and leave all to luck. And ofcourse best thing is DIY as much as you can. Right?

Akhil

Randell

12-03-2005, 02:45 AM

Jay 535i

12-03-2005, 10:00 AM

$107/HOUR ?!?!?! holy crap

i take my car to a bmw trained specialist who charges the equivalent of $56/hour (Canadian), does a proper job and never gives me any ********..

i can't believe BMW can justify that cost..

Well, when you get to the dealer, you start to look around. It's a gorgeous, recently-built 30,000 sq.ft. building with 100 people working in it, plasma TVs, a $5000 espresso machine, etc. They gotta pay for it somehow. Not that I condone their rate, but you do get an awful lot more than you get at an indy garage. Whether or not it's worth it is debatable.

I figure that the service dept. rakes in $15-20k every day in labor alone -- probably more than is made in the showroom, on average.

Anyway, like I said earlier, and like I said to the service rep lady: I see the rate on the wall and I accept it. But it says $107 per hour, so don't try to charge me $650 for 90 minutes' work. And I really don't give a **** what some book says. Unless Elton John is working on my car, you're not getting my $650 for 90 minutes' work.

Gayle

12-03-2005, 10:17 AM

Jay 535i

12-03-2005, 10:24 AM

Jay--I love this thread. Thanks for sharing. You are going to become the new hero for all of who feel the same way you do about working on our own cars. This is better than hearing a guy admit he is lost and asking for directions.;)

Thanks, Gayle. Thought I was the only one here who doesn't turn his own wrenches :)

Not that I'm unwilling to try, but...well I've said it already.

Gayle

12-03-2005, 10:43 AM

Thanks, Gayle. Thought I was the only one here who doesn't turn his own wrenches :)

You are not the only one. Because I have "armchair mechanic" in my sig line, I get private messages from people all the time confessing that they too do not wrench their own car.

I have been psyching myself up to work on my car since I got it in July. Bought tools which are still in the box. I figure I will have some time off around Christmas and have picked the issues I will deal with myself and the ones I will have a mechanic do. Similar to what you wrote, I figure I should work on things that will not be fatal if I blow it.

And your thread made me remind myself how lucky I am to live in So Cal. I am still eating lunch outside on a daily basis and not wearing a coat. No cold and dark issues here so I am counting my blessings.

Jay 535i

12-03-2005, 10:44 AM

And your thread made me remind myself how lucky I am to live in So Cal. I am still eating lunch outside on a daily basis and not wearing a coat. No cold and dark issues here so I am counting my blessings.

Yeah, laugh it up there, girlie. I'll have the last laugh when your state falls into the ocean :D

No earthquakes here! The most dangerous thing I have to worry about is beaver bites and moose kicks.

ra_pro

12-03-2005, 11:12 AM

I hate dealing with dealers, just entering dealerships makes me sick. The air is thick with their arrogance and ignorance but all wrapped up in a antiseptic hospital-like odour. You know you are going to bleed when you enter the door.

You need an indy like I have. 2 weeks ago he replaced all the coolant hoses and related parts under the intake manifold. He had to take apart a lot of the other stuff to get access. He had the car for a week waiting for parts and working on it. His rate is 60 CAD per hour. Before I picked up the car I asked him if I needed remortgage my house. He said no, he only charged me for 4 hours of labour. I am sure he spent minimum of 10 hours net on the car, probably more.

Call me stupid but recently a job opportunity came up in Air Canada for mechanics and I asked him he was interested and he said he would try it. So I may lose my trusted mechanic, without him I am sure I won't be able to keep my car (95 540i).

I am even worse than you. The most I can do on my car is check the fuses, my father used to joke that both of my hands were left. So my mechanic does basically everything on the cars I have.

Jay 535i

12-03-2005, 11:15 AM

I hate dealing with dealers, just entering dealerships makes me sick. The air is thick with their arrogance and ignorance but all wrapped up in a antiseptic hospital-like odour. You know you are going to bleed when you enter the door.

That's exactly it. They are soooo arrogant. I'm a young guy, and when I walk in the door they don't even look at me. I guess the figure I can't afford a BMW. I can't, but hey, I drove up in one! On the other hand, if they sense money in your pocket, they turn into vultures.

I don't know why the sellers of the most expensive products a person will ever buy are the last to discover the importance of customer service. I wish Walmart sold cars...

Dash01

12-03-2005, 12:32 PM

You need to dis-abuse yourself of any misconceptions about so-called "book" labor estimates.

The "book" rate is a product of crooked lawyers and thieves (am I being redundant?) that is contrived disinformation designed to hoodwink ignorant customers into paying vastly more fo labor than is actually needed to do a given job, i.e., the "book" is self-serving propaganda.

When you challenge them on this, the stock and well-rehearsed answer boils down to "everybody does it."

Keep in mind that car dealerships make most profit from financing, then from "service," then from sales. The "book" rate serves their purpose of enhanced profit, and bears little or no resemblence to the actual amount of time a given repair may take.

Get yourself a Bentley manual for ~$50ish, via Google search. Get yourself a basic tool kit at Costco for ~$50ish. When you need parts, start with BMA or similar. Before you start a job, do a search on this website, and/or ask the rest of us for advice or insight. Stay away from dealers when possible, or at the very least call several for comparative quotes. These cars need not be expensive to maintain.

Zeuk in Oz

12-03-2005, 06:47 PM

That's exactly it. They are soooo arrogant. I'm a young guy, and when I walk in the door they don't even look at me. I guess the figure I can't afford a BMW. I can't, but hey, I drove up in one! On the other hand, if they sense money in your pocket, they turn into vultures.

I don't know why the sellers of the most expensive products a person will ever buy are the last to discover the importance of customer service. I wish Walmart sold cars...
Stop fretting !

No-body is born a BMW mechanic - everybody has to learn at some stage and there is no substitute for experience.

Start with 1 job but plan ahead so that you can deal with the unexpected.

Many of us can do the simple things, but often our problem is time - either our available time or not being able to have the car off the road for long enough for us to fix it at our slower pace compared with the pros who have all the right equipment - hoists etc.

Therefore many of us have to deal with professionals - either dealers or independents but it helps if we have some idea of what is involved - if they think you know something they might not try to cheat you so badly.

I recall a Range Rover that I owned once that came back from a dealer service using twice as much fuel as when it went in. I took it back and investigation showed thatn the exhaust analyser had not been calibrated so they changed the engine's settings. No big deal I thought, but that dealership actually listened to me after that and took some notice when I complained about a fault that was perhaps hard to detect or intermittent.

I have had the same problem at various car dealerships over the years. Even though I am not young anymore, I do not wear suits to work so if I happen to call in to a dealership while in the area I have on occasion been completely ignored.

The best way to deal with this is to purchase a vehicle from another dealer of the same marque and then write a pleasant note to the original dealer principal thanking them for not selling me a car as their opposition gave much better service and a better deal.

If a dealership treats people according to how they dress or how old they are, they will never be successful in the long run !

Bill R.

12-04-2005, 10:42 AM

flat rate times that all manufacturers use for a specific job are determined by the factory through having their own people do the job repeatedly and determining the correct approximate time to charge for the job. A number of mechanics have a problem with this since some of the jobs take considerably longer than the flat rate time and some jobs take less after you 've done it 50 times. But all in all they are intended as a fair estimate of how long the job takes to do it correctly... That doesn't mean that you can't get in there and butcher things up and get the job done quicker. The factory develops these flat rates to help the dealer to give the customer an estimate since most of you would not be happy if they said they had no idea how long it would take to do this job.
Its posts like this that make me wonder why i bother to post at all...

You need to dis-abuse yourself of any misconceptions about so-called "book" labor estimates.

The "book" rate is a product of crooked lawyers and thieves (am I being redundant?) that is contrived disinformation designed to hoodwink ignorant customers into paying vastly more fo labor than is actually needed to do a given job, i.e., the "book" is self-serving propaganda.

When you challenge them on this, the stock and well-rehearsed answer boils down to "everybody does it."

Keep in mind that car dealerships make most profit from financing, then from "service," then from sales. The "book" rate serves their purpose of enhanced profit, and bears little or no resemblence to the actual amount of time a given repair may take.

Get yourself a Bentley manual for ~$50ish, via Google search. Get yourself a basic tool kit at Costco for ~$50ish. When you need parts, start with BMA or similar. Before you start a job, do a search on this website, and/or ask the rest of us for advice or insight. Stay away from dealers when possible, or at the very least call several for comparative quotes. These cars need not be expensive to maintain.

dave b

12-04-2005, 10:59 AM

Which gives the labor units for all jobs. It came with the TIS set that I bought. Is that the same as the "book rate?" I use it for estimating jobs that I am about to do or if I need to take it to the shop.

I stopped going to the dealer 6 years ago. I used to go in for the $30 oil changes, until I got tired of arguing about what I needed done on my car every time. Had I listened to them, I would have all new parts onmy car by now. That was 80k ago....

Dave

Bill R.

12-04-2005, 11:23 AM

flat rate. Each unit in the flat rate is equal to 5 minutes, so for Jay Lebo's job here are the following bmw flat rate times..http://www.bimmer.info/%7Ebill/flatratebrakelight.jpg

The brake light switch is 5 units of time which is 25minutes. This is bmw's flat rate time. The turnsignals are 4 units or 20 minutes each side also.

http://www.bimmer.info/%7Ebill/Turnsignal.jpg

the operating rod for the wipers is 5 units or 25 minutes, these are all reasonable times in my opinion, and this is what bmw uses. You also have to remember that the mechanic doing the job is paid flat rate for this job, this means he has to clean up his tools, go get the car, bring it to the bay , put down protective mats on the seats and floor or whatever, do the job and clean up afterwards, then take the car back up front... You can eat up 10 minutes on one job just picking up and returning the car. The mechanics aren't getting rich. Not to mention that they aren't paid for the time spent cleaning up and sorting tools when a job is done, And all the mechanics tools are paid for out of his own pocket which eats into those flat rate riches that he's collecting. The dealer provides any specialty tools usually for the shop to use.http://www.bimmer.info/%7Ebill/operating%20rod%20wipers.jpg

Which gives the labor units for all jobs. It came with the TIS set that I bought. Is that the same as the "book rate?" I use it for estimating jobs that I am about to do or if I need to take it to the shop.

I stopped going to the dealer 6 years ago. I used to go in for the $30 oil changes, until I got tired of arguing about what I needed done on my car every time. Had I listened to them, I would have all new parts onmy car by now. That was 80k ago....

Dave

Jay 535i

12-04-2005, 12:05 PM

Thanks for that, Bill. So, here's what I still don't understand...

Rates according to the graphics you posted:

Brake light switch = 25 minutes
Replace both turn signals = 40 minutes
Replace wiper drive rod = 25 minutes
Total cost @ $107/hr = $160 + a few extra minutes

Dealer's quote:

Brake light switch = 1 hour
Replace both turn signlas = 2 hours
Replace wiper drive rod = 2.5 hours
Total cost @ $107/hr = $647 + a few extra minutes

WHAT GIVES!?

Dash01

12-04-2005, 12:11 PM

Bill, l appreciate and enjoy your friendly, timely, and very informative posts. You make some excellent and relevent points. However, on the whole, I'm going to respectfully disagree, based on my own emperical obsrevations. Here's why, based on just a few fairly recent experiences:

Last year I bought a replacement transmission mount bushing for my '90 535i. Reportedly (at least other listers said so) the factory procedure for this is to remove the catback exhaust system and driveshaft, then install the replacement tranny mount, then re-install in reverse order. This would have been hours of shop time. My 16 year old kid (with no prior experience on this procedure or this car) did this in less than 15 minutes by crawling under the car, reaching up and around the exhaust pipe and driveshaft, unbolting the old mount, and slipping in the new one. He used a crescent wrench and a ratcheting box wrench. What would be the shop book rate for this procedure?

Some of us have had ignition lock cylinder and/or jammed steering lock problems, including me. When mine broke, I called all three BMW dealers in this region for quotes. As I recall, such quotes ran ~$400-$600 + parts + tax + transport ~90 miles to such dealer. BMA sold me a pre-keyed new ig. lock for about half the dealer price and delivered it in less time. I did the whole job myself, by removing the steering lock and working on my kitchen table, in about ~3 hours. What would be the shop book rate for this procedure?

When working on the car, I disconnected the battery, which in turn triggered the anti-theft system that disables the radio. Needing the anti-theft code to re-program the radio, I called one the Seattle BMW dealer, and was told that it would cost me 1 hour of shop time to tell me the radio access code on my '90 535i. Fortunately, the BMW dealer in Fife provided it to me over the phone for no charge. What would be the shop rate for this procedure?

My nephew in another state worked as an apprentice mechanic at a BMW dealer. He has all sorts of stories of price gouging of customers by using the shop book rate.

Also last year, I had the clutch replaced on my Porsche 944 Turbo. While in there, the rear engine seal was also replaced. The commonly quoted book rate for this is ~18-22 hours, depending upon whether the car has a one piece or two piece crossover pipe from the turbo. Mine has the two-piece pipe, so the book rate would have been at least ~18 hours. My local indy did the whole job, to correct specs and with all brand new OEM parts that I brought him, in less than 9 hours. One of the 9 hours was spent on a frozen relief valve on the turbo itself, and/or removing and sending the flywheel out for re-surfacing. Why can my indy do this procedure for less than half the commonly quoted book rate?

Again, I very much appreciate all the fine contributions made here by professional mechanics, and in no way wish to disparage the good work they do. Still, given such experiences as noted above, coupled with those of other listers, I have some very serious misgivings about so-called book rates for various maintenance and repair procedures. So, I'm respectfully sticking by my prior post on this topic.

Best to all!

flat rate times that all manufacturers use for a specific job are determined by the factory through having their own people do the job repeatedly and determining the correct approximate time to charge for the job. A number of mechanics have a problem with this since some of the jobs take considerably longer than the flat rate time and some jobs take less after you 've done it 50 times. But all in all they are intended as a fair estimate of how long the job takes to do it correctly... That doesn't mean that you can't get in there and butcher things up and get the job done quicker. The factory develops these flat rates to help the dealer to give the customer an estimate since most of you would not be happy if they said they had no idea how long it would take to do this job.
Its posts like this that make me wonder why i bother to post at all...

Bill R.

12-04-2005, 12:19 PM

dealer uses to determine flat rate times for a job.
I have no idea why your dealer came up with a different number than what is posted.. Dealers are required to keep track of actual time for jobs as well and to pass along that information to the factory , to enable the factory to make corrections in the times they have allocated for various jobs.
You should make inquiries at other dealers in your area of other shops. This is the flat rate time that bmw uses.

Thanks for that, Bill. So, here's what I still don't understand...

Rates according to the graphics you posted:

Brake light switch = 25 minutes
Replace both turn signals = 40 minutes
Replace wiper drive rod = 25 minutes
Total cost @ $107/hr = $160 + a few extra minutes

Dealer's quote:

Brake light switch = 1 hour
Replace both turn signlas = 2 hours
Replace wiper drive rod = 2.5 hours
Total cost @ $107/hr = $647 + a few extra minutes

WHAT GIVES!?

Jay 535i

12-04-2005, 12:22 PM

dealer uses to determine flat rate times for a job.
I have no idea why your dealer came up with a different number than what is posted.. Dealers are required to keep track of actual time for jobs as well and to pass along that information to the factory , to enable the factory to make corrections in the times they have allocated for various jobs.
You should make inquiries at other dealers in your area of other shops. This is the flat rate time that bmw uses.

Thanks. I certainly will call around at other dealers, and confront these guys if necessary. Thanks for arming me with this information. I'm going to get to the bottom of this!

The only way I could see how this might have been an honest mistake is if there's somehow some confusion as to how many minutes are in a 'unit'. Are you certain that it's universally accepted that 1 Unit = 5 Minutes?

Akhil

12-04-2005, 01:06 PM

Book rate for labor is same like MSRP for parts, always over charging. Don't you think what we pay for most BMW parts are way more than what it should be. If prices what we pay for most of the BMW parts are real price then you won't be able to buy a brand new car for the price we buy, it will be at least 5 to 10 times more than what we pay for a car. Did you ever add up the prices of just few major componets (parts) under the hood, it will exceed the price of a brand new car. Do you agree?

Akhil

Bill R.

12-04-2005, 01:10 PM

15 minutes. I would charge one hour if i were doing the job, since
A. I'm not as skinny as your 16 year old and i have to jack up the car put it on jackstands, then put a jack under the transmission pan to support it while i unbolt the trans member that the mounts are attached to. Without the member that the rear trans mounts to , the transmission then drops down in the rear. AS seen here in this pic the mounts are attached to the crossmember and support the rear of the trans , this pic may look confusing since i have the trans pan off of the car here. If your son did this in 15m minutes then he's talented and may want to consider a career in mechanicshttp://www.bimmer.info/%7Ebill/Rotation%20of%204hp22%20bottom1%20copy.jpg

I nor any of the other people that i know of on here that are knowledgeable have said that the cat or the driveshaft must be removed to replace these.

As far as the 944 turbo , here's the flat rate time for it 11.3 including the flywheel removal. Its well within the realm of possibility that your mechanic did it in 9 hours. I would venture to say that he did not follow porshe's procedures to do it and cut a few corners in able to do it in this shorter time. But maybe not.http://www.bimmer.info/%7Ebill/944turbo.jpg

EDIT, also flat rate time to change the complete steering lock assy. is 55 minutes.

Bill, l appreciate and enjoy your friendly, timely, and very informative posts. You make some excellent and relevent points. However, on the whole, I'm going to respectfully disagree, based on my own emperical obsrevations. Here's why, based on just a few fairly recent experiences:

Last year I bought a replacement transmission mount bushing for my '90 535i. Reportedly (at least other listers said so) the factory procedure for this is to remove the catback exhaust system and driveshaft, then install the replacement tranny mount, then re-install in reverse order. This would have been hours of shop time. My 16 year old kid (with no prior experience on this procedure or this car) did this in less than 15 minutes by crawling under the car, reaching up and around the exhaust pipe and driveshaft, unbolting the old mount, and slipping in the new one. He used a crescent wrench and a ratcheting box wrench. What would be the shop book rate for this procedure?

Some of us have had ignition lock cylinder and/or jammed steering lock problems, including me. When mine broke, I called all three BMW dealers in this region for quotes. As I recall, such quotes ran ~$400-$600 + parts + tax + transport ~90 miles to such dealer. BMA sold me a pre-keyed new ig. lock for about half the dealer price and delivered it in less time. I did the whole job myself, by removing the steering lock and working on my kitchen table, in about ~3 hours. What would be the shop book rate for this procedure?

When working on the car, I disconnected the battery, which in turn triggered the anti-theft system that disables the radio. Needing the anti-theft code to re-program the radio, I called one the Seattle BMW dealer, and was told that it would cost me 1 hour of shop time to tell me the radio access code on my '90 535i. Fortunately, the BMW dealer in Fife provided it to me over the phone for no charge. What would be the shop rate for this procedure?

My nephew in another state worked as an apprentice mechanic at a BMW dealer. He has all sorts of stories of price gouging of customers by using the shop book rate.

Also last year, I had the clutch replaced on my Porsche 944 Turbo. While in there, the rear engine seal was also replaced. The commonly quoted book rate for this is ~18-22 hours, depending upon whether the car has a one piece or two piece crossover pipe from the turbo. Mine has the two-piece pipe, so the book rate would have been at least ~18 hours. My local indy did the whole job, to correct specs and with all brand new OEM parts that I brought him, in less than 9 hours. One of the 9 hours was spent on a frozen relief valve on the turbo itself, and/or removing and sending the flywheel out for re-surfacing. Why can my indy do this procedure for less than half the commonly quoted book rate?

Again, I very much appreciate all the fine contributions made here by professional mechanics, and in no way wish to disparage the good work they do. Still, given such experiences as noted above, coupled with those of other listers, I have some very serious misgivings about so-called book rates for various maintenance and repair procedures. So, I'm respectfully sticking by my prior post on this topic.

Best to all!

mattyb

12-04-2005, 02:39 PM

Cat and driveshaft stay put, they do not come off. with all due respect, 15 minutes is a worry, maybe get under there and double check what it is that your well intentioned 16 year old did. I did mine and its not a 15 minute job, minimum 30 minutes for someone with a bit of experience. He might have meant well but I hope your trannys not hanging on by whisker. he could not have known to adjust all the other bits and pieces that get moved when the box is lifted or supported. But hell if he did theres your book rate problem sorted.

Zeuk in Oz

12-04-2005, 05:25 PM

Its posts like this that make me wonder why i bother to post at all...

I think that the baby might have been thrown out with the bath water in this thread.

As I said in an earlier post, there are good and bad dealers; and good and bad independents.

The set time/fee method of calculating what to charge a specific customer for a specific service is standard practice in many industries, not just vehicle repairs.

In my practice I have set fees for set services, eg a dog spey. This is calculated on approximate time such a procedure should take.

What is not considered in such a fee scale is where something goes wrong, or is more difficult than the norm, and so in my situation a dog spey that usually takes me 30 minutes to do might take an hour. I do not charge more than the set fee, but on the other hand if the next spey takes 18 minutes to do, the owners do not get a discount.

Swings and roundabouts.

I feel that what Jaylebo is trying to say is that some dealers and even probably some indpendents take things beyond what is fair or reasonable and he seems to have struck one of these.
This sort of thing happens in all industries and certainly happens in mine.

No-one should complain if they are charged a fair and reasonable fee for a service, however the problem is sometimes educating the consumer in what is fair and resonable.

I find it interesting that I almost never get any complaints about my fees when I attend a large animal as the owner is there seeing exactly what I do and how hard it is and how long it takes me.

I have more problems where people drop an animal off in the morning and collect it later without having any idea of exactly what has been done. I find that the more I explain what is involved with any particular procedure the better it is.

I realise that I am in a slightly different position to motor mechanics as much of what I do owners of animals cannot do themselves, or it is illegal for owners to do themselves. Nonetheless the principles are the same.

Sorry to ramble on.

Gayle

12-04-2005, 06:00 PM

Its posts like this that make me wonder why i bother to post at all...

You guys are scaring me.

Bill R. You are one of the most knowledgeable people on this board. If you quit posting, this place would really not be the same.

I also happen to know from having had you take me to task on this issue that you really don't like it when people bad mouth mechanics and dealerships. Maybe the rest of you don't know that. If I can roughly paraphrase Bill's position on this (and correct me if I am wrong, Bill) --

(1) bad mouthing mechanics and dealerships is the equivalent of stereo typing as there are good ones and bad ones, but threads like this create the impression that they are all bad

and

(2) just who do we think is addressing the really tough problems on this board and giving us the high quality, hard to access information? Some of the practices people are railing against like book rates for specific jobs are practiced by the very people who are giving us the best information for free. Now do we really want to bite the hand that feeds us?

I think we all should celebrate that Jay's experience at the dealer gave him the kick in the pants to work on his own car. Jay took lemons and made lemonaide. Good for him. I'm jealous. And for the rest of us, if we don't want to pay dealer rates, we don't have to. There are people who want to pay for the capacino machine at the dealership and the dealer is there for them. They dig being able to do that. This board does not attract that kind of person. We can all feel superior that we are not that way. It doesn't make the dealer or people who use them wrong. Let's give this topic a rest. And don't anyone dare call me mom.

Zeuk in Oz

12-04-2005, 06:09 PM

And don't anyone dare call me mom.

Yes mum ! :p

And thank you to Bill R and all the others who offer so much to the ignorants like me on this forum !

Jay 535i

12-04-2005, 06:18 PM

Certainly some dealers/mechanics are better than others. I certainly wouldn't tar a whole group of mechanics (or anyone) with the same brush. I've met my share of friendly, competent and fair mechanics, as well as the bad ones. There's good and bad in every industry.

And I'm not opposed to 'book rates', either. Zeuk's point is well taken.

What I am against is anybody who gouges their customers, and I think that the dealership in question tried to gouge me. I'm going to find out for sure. From what I can see, they took the 'book rate', multiplied it by four, and there was my quote.

If that's what's happened, then that's fraud, pure and simple. And, since this is an official BMW dealership, it's only right that the collective reputations of BMW and all of its dealers should suffer, if fraud is indeed what's happening here.

I think everyone here realizes that generalizations are almost always wrong. And nobody here made a generalization except for Dash01, who pretty much said that anybody using a 'book rate' is a thief. I think Bill did the right thing by setting him straight. But, Bill, know that my confidence in you and in the profession as a whole is undiminished. That one dealer tried to rip me off (maybe -- jury's still out) doesn't diminish the excellent service other mechanics have given me.

There are fraudsters in every profession, and they should all be stopped, but they're usually outnumbered by the good ones. And, IMHO, using a 'book rate' doesn't necessarily make one a fraudster, unless one is systematically multiplying those rates by four!

Qube

12-04-2005, 09:36 PM

Check this thread for good indies when you can't meet with Bruno...

http://www.bimmer.info/forum/showthread.php?t=16437

If you need specialty tools, Canadian Tire will lend them to you for free.

mattyb

12-04-2005, 10:10 PM

any tips for do it yourself speying? Just kidding

mattyb

12-04-2005, 10:16 PM

hi ya mumsie. your so right and without BILL R we'd be up the creek. Its just a shame we cant fly him around the world and do a "scheduled maintanance" world tour. The Bill R experience with Jeff and the headless chickens. He could come here for summer and do all our cars in one go. Go the beach, drink beer, chase sheilas and then move onto the European tour and do the same again. celebrity bmw technical consultant type thing.

Bill R.

12-04-2005, 10:58 PM

time for the jobs remains the same. According to this bulletin from 2002, the techs pay was changed to 8 fr units per hour which works out to 7.5 minutes per unit. The time for the job remains the same but the tech got paid more... Its their way of passing on a raise to the techs. Job time remains the same though so for calculating how long a job should take the old flat rate times are still used.http://www.bimmer.info/%7Ebill/flatratetime.jpg

Thanks. I certainly will call around at other dealers, and confront these guys if necessary. Thanks for arming me with this information. I'm going to get to the bottom of this!

The only way I could see how this might have been an honest mistake is if there's somehow some confusion as to how many minutes are in a 'unit'. Are you certain that it's universally accepted that 1 Unit = 5 Minutes?

Bill R.

12-04-2005, 11:02 PM

first hand knowledge of how they are currently getting paid. I myself do not work flat rate, i work strictly by how long the job takes... I lose a few customers who want a flat rate quote but not many. With flat rate the mechanic can win or lose depending on the job as some of the others have stated.. Flat rate doesn't take into consideration that rusted bolt that shears of and you have to drill out or any number of other problems you can run into. Also flat rate encourages corner cutting and sloppier work. Doing it by the hour only i can take my time and do a careful job, better for both of us.

time for the jobs remains the same. According to this bulletin from 2002, the techs pay was changed to 8 fr units per hour which works out to 7.5 minutes per unit. The time for the job remains the same but the tech got paid more... Its their way of passing on a raise to the techs. Job time remains the same though so for calculating how long a job should take the old flat rate times are still used.http://www.bimmer.info/%7Ebill/flatratetime.jpg

mattyb

12-04-2005, 11:23 PM

Bill, every thing I do is timed and charged per minute. My client pays for what I do, no more and no less and itemised to the minute. I understand the benefits of the flat rate but i am not a fan of it and in regards to my dealer i made him aware of what i intend to pay for when i first met him. i am most appreciative of the replies u have provided as they are always helpful if not life saving. I hope the others might think about some of the things u said and perhaps realise that they should either learn how to do what needs to be done or learn how to communicate effectively with a prospective supplier of knowledge and services. It seems that we have a lot of newbs here and that they are a little eager to mouth off before they get any real help, usuually when they are broke, stuck for a car and cant fix it themselves. I , like most of the others here in oz will have to shout you a hundred beers when u get here and thats gonna be messy but we look forward to it. and zeuk will have some prozac if u need it.

Zeuk in Oz

12-05-2005, 01:36 AM

zeuk will have some prozac if u need it.
With or without warm milk ! :p

angrypancake

12-05-2005, 01:46 AM

how bout some xanax? that would rock :)

Jon K

12-05-2005, 09:39 AM

not to be mean, but i think its moderately funny someone criticizes a dealerships labour rate, and then can't complete the task himself. No offense, its just great irony! Hehe.

mattyb

12-05-2005, 10:59 PM

with milk of course, shaken not stirred

Jay 535i

12-06-2005, 10:46 AM

not to be mean, but i think its moderately funny someone criticizes a dealerships labour rate, and then can't complete the task himself. No offense, its just great irony! Hehe.

Huh?

I can't perform my own surgery, make my own clothes, cut my own hair, build my own house, or any number of other things. Does that mean I'm not allowed to scrutinize the fees of the people that provide those services?

Just because I can't remove my own appendix doesn't mean the doctor has free reign to charge whatever he wants.

Moreover, that I can't work on my own car doesn't free my mechanic from the bounds of ethics.

I am a professional graphic designer. I don't say to my clients, "My fee is $1000/hr. Since you can't do it yourself, you have no right to argue."

You're not making sense there, Jon. We all rely on others to help us with the things we can't do ourselves. But we also count on them to be ethical and reasonable, and we hold them accountable. Don't we? Or do you just give your plumber a blank check?

Jay 535i

12-29-2005, 11:08 AM

The saga continues here:

http://www.bimmer.info/forum/showthread.php?p=120992#post120992

emw525E34

12-29-2005, 07:04 PM

Jay, We all started up as complete Idiots and gradually learned thru the help of forumners here and elsewhere to get to a state where we can handle most "simpler" repairs on any car, except for major engine work or drive train work like diff replacement!.

There is certainly great satisfaction in DIY as with the effort that goes into it. We come up tops as the real idiots are working at the $tealers ripping off un-suspecting customers who are either frightened by the car's internals or got swayed by the marketing BS that BMW and other car manufactueres conjures up. Its a business and there are niche opportunities that one can help onself in. Keys are information (which there are plenty of contributors here), tools (buy, borrow or rent), and the effort put into it (ie manpower or in some cases Women power!.

Heck, I started when my gorgeous blond neighbour fixed my bike clutch when her mom asked me what was wrong with my bike. She then said, ask Angela, she is a Grade A mechanic!. As a complete idiot then on bikes, Angela quickly got the clutch sorted out!. Then I got off my butt and started learning....mechanical stuff.