M30 rebuild

[Jay 535i]

Just for my own information, what tasks and costs are part of an M30 rebuild?

Does a rebuild essentially make the engine good as new?

[Scott H]

there are a lot of things you should look at, at a minimum. but you can do anything you want really.


Just for my own information, what tasks and costs are part of an M30 rebuild?

Does a rebuild essentially make the engine good as new?

[Kalevera]

Rebuild is a vague term.

A bottom end rebuild could consist of bearings/caps, or much more (boring/lining/you name it).

A top end rebuild is equally as vague. Sometimes you get away with just regrinding/polishing the valves and seats, others require new guides, the head needs to be decked (warped), cam may need grinding.

As long as nobody assed up your motor, it hasn't been overheated or RTVd to death; I can practically guarantee that it doesn't need anything at 135k...it's a relative baby to some of the others floating around. In fact, my spare motor has more mileage than yours does. People often make the mistake of thinking that classic BMW engineering is tantamount to something the big 3 would've produced in the past twenty years....but that's another topic, for another day.


best, whit

[Scott H]

Check compression and leakdown before taking it apart. I'd recondition the cylinder walls and check them for conicity and uniformity. Re-ring the pistons. No use putting together a bottom end if the rings aren't sealing for whatever reason. Also might as well replace the oil pump, timing sprockets and chains, and chain tensioner whild your in there.....

man...if you wanted to do it right, the list is long


A bottom end rebuild could consist of bearings/caps, or much more (boring/lining/you name it).

[Jay 535i]

Thanks guys.

What kind of costs are involved? Give me a range.

My engine certainly doesn't need any kind of rebuild at the moment, but I am thinking ahead to the future and a possible turbo kit.

I know a compression test is the first thing the turbo kit calls for, but I want to plan for the worst and assume my engine will need some work. TCD claims a high-mileage engine with good compression is perfectly suitable for their kits, but I don't know if that's optimistic. In any case, I want to know just how many pennies I have to save to have a reliable blown M30.

[Scott H]

Depending on what you find for machinists in your area and how much you decide to replace, as well as how much work you decide to do yourself, I'd say you are looking at between $1,500 and $3,000

Here is my breakdown for my project. I took out as many items related to the swap as possible (e.g. tranny stuff, a/c stuff, etc etc):

Head rebuild which included tear down, cleaning, new guides, new seals, spark plug thread chasing, one new intake valve, a minor resurfacing, and extraction of a handful of snapped manifold studs (I'm putting it back together) $450

Dipping of block and intake $200

Rings, bearings, camshaft, rocker arms, oil pump, new chains, new sprockets, gasket sets for upper and lower, all new hardware $1,500


What kind of costs are involved? Give me a range.

[Jay 535i]

Depending on what you find for machinists in your area and how much you decide to replace, as well as how much work you decide to do yourself, I'd say you are looking at between $1,500 and $3,000

Here is my breakdown for my project. I took out as many items related to the swap as possible (e.g. tranny stuff, a/c stuff, etc etc):

Head rebuild which included tear down, cleaning, new guides, new seals, spark plug thread chasing, one new intake valve, a minor resurfacing, and extraction of a handful of snapped manifold studs (I'm putting it back together) $450

Dipping of block and intake $200

Rings, bearings, camshaft, rocker arms, oil pump, new chains, new sprockets, gasket sets for upper and lower, all new hardware $1,500

Cheers. That's about what I figured.

Isn't $3k approaching the cost of a whole freshly-rebuilt M30?

Ultimately, I'd like to achieve a RELIABLE 400 RWHP. This car must remain usable as a daily driver. I'm trying to determine roughly what that would cost. I think between 10k and 15k, Canadian, all in. If it's nearer 15, then it'll be a hard decision whether to go ahead with it or instead leave it alone and buy a late model RX-7 for when I'm feeling sporty.

Any suggestions or input are appreciated.

[Dave M]

Cheers. That's about what I figured.

Isn't $3k approaching the cost of a whole freshly-rebuilt M30?

$4000 for a rebuild M30 from Bavarian (I believe an expensive source).

I'm rebuilding the M50 at the moment and started by purchasing a used, rebuilt block (main/rod bearings, rings). My choice to have someone else do the bottom end rebuild was based on my location (Thunder Bay=no bmws) and hesitance to purchase the necessary tools. The block, rebuild and shipping was @$1100 Can. total. My head was recently rebuilt so I won't do much unless inspection warrants it. You must consider the 'while you're in there' factor as well. Maybe a few hundred for a clutch kit (you want forced air don't you :) ), plenty of gaskets and engine seals, maybe a lighter flywheel, shift linkage components if an old manual tranny is swapped. $hit, you can count on $100 in fluids. The list can go on.

The key is DIY. I will be able to swap a 'new block' cheaper than it cost me to just have my head rebuilt. Plus, I can spend some evenings in the garage, with my friend beer.

I'm over my head, but as long as you guys are around, it should run again.

Dave M

[Jay 535i]

$4000 for a rebuild M30 from Bavarian (I believe an expensive source).

I'm rebuilding the M50 at the moment and started by purchasing a used, rebuilt block (main/rod bearings, rings). My choice to have someone else do the bottom end rebuild was based on my location (Thunder Bay=no bmws) and hesitance to purchase the necessary tools. The block, rebuild and shipping was @$1100 Can. total. My head was recently rebuilt so I won't do much unless inspection warrants it. You must consider the 'while you're in there' factor as well. Maybe a few hundred for a clutch kit (you want forced air don't you :) ), plenty of gaskets and engine seals, maybe a lighter flywheel, shift linkage components if an old manual tranny is swapped. $hit, you can count on $100 in fluids. The list can go on.

The key is DIY. I will be able to swap a 'new block' cheaper than it cost me to just have my head rebuilt. Plus, I can spend some evenings in the garage, with my friend beer.

I'm over my head, but as long as you guys are around, it should run again.

Dave M

Thanks Dave. I had hoped that my $10-15k estimate included the 'while you're in there' stuff, as well as a transmission swap, performance clutch, LSD, etc. I hope that's not naive.

I intend to have Bruno do the work for me, which will cost money, but much less than a big fancy shop. I simply cannot do this work myself.

I want to do this RIGHT, but at the same time I'm aiming for value. There's no point IMHO building a 400RWHP monster if things on it are breaking every week. At the same time, it doesn't make sense to spend more than $15k on this car because for that money I could buy a fast sports car (e.g. RX-7, 300ZX, 944 Turbo) and have TWO great cars.

I'm still not sure though if I should be considering buying a new engine or rebuilding mine. I guess a thorough inspection will make that decision easier. Those Bavarian rebuilt engines are pretty appealing, and my existing engine ought to be worth something to somebody.

If I do decide to buy a rebuilt engine, is the M30 still the one to have to reach my goal of a reliable, reasonably-priced 400RWHP?

Keep the input coming. I appreciate it. :)

[bahnstormer]

why not buy a metric mechanic motor for 6 grand? 280hp?
new...

[bahnstormer]

If I do decide to buy a rebuilt engine, is the M30 still the one to have to reach my goal of a reliable, reasonably-priced 400RWHP?

Keep the input coming. I appreciate it. :)


400hp NA on the m30 is gonna cost u
FI its cake
reliably? its kinda pricey cake

'sides u can't put 400rwhp down
u'd need suspension tires etc

[bahnstormer]

6 Cylinder Engines - M30
3700 HiFlo ST Sport Engine $6295 $800
3700 HiFlo ST Rally Engine $7495 $800
3700 HiFlo ST Rally Engine $8995-9495 $800
3900 HiFlo ST Sport Engine $8695 $800
http://www.metricmechanic.com/prengine.html

[Scott H]

you couldn't just edit/update your first post?



6 Cylinder Engines - M30
3700 HiFlo ST Sport Engine $6295 $800
3700 HiFlo ST Rally Engine $7495 $800
3700 HiFlo ST Rally Engine $8995-9495 $800
3900 HiFlo ST Sport Engine $8695 $800
http://www.metricmechanic.com/prengine.html

[Jay 535i]

Bahnstormer,

I am talking about forced induction.

What's Metric Mechanic, exactly? How much power are those engines making? The prices are kinda steep, unless they negate the need for a turbo kit.

As you see it, what pricey work/parts does the reliable car have that the not-so-reliable car doesn't have? I'm just curious. The whole project is pointless if I turn my reliable everyday car into a garage queen.

My suspension and tires are already upgraded.

[632 Regal]

post whoring i guess
you couldn't just edit/update your first post?

[dacoyote]

post whoring i guess

Pot... Kettle.. Black....

[BigKriss]

I'm assuming that stock internals will take 12psi and pump fuel. How long it lasts is another matter. For anything over 12psi I would go with custom internals, not cheap what so ever. If you want a reliable high horsepower engine you will have to spend big $$$. I've been looking into it a bit. Take Beeto's car for example. Try to emulate this car. Personally for a high horsepower application I wouldn't skimp on anything unless I had a second engine ready to drop into the car. It may sound overkill, but here's a list I've put together so far (they don't all have prices);

- turbo
- fuel injectors
- custom pistions -http://www.racetep.com/jeimport.html#bmw – US$1490 for 6
- custom valves - www.ferrea.com (http://www.ferrea.com/)
- valve springs http://vacmotorsports.com/cgi-bin/view_item.pl?cat=Engine+Components – US$340 for 6
- Reinforced Rocker Arms http://vacmotorsports.com/cgi-bin/view_item.pl?cat=Engine+Components – US$600 for 6
- Custom connecting rods - http://www.pauter.com/bmwrods.htm (http://www.pauter.com/bmwrods.htm) US$1620
- new or reground cam
- intercooler
- wastegate if not on the turbo
- new headgasket
- custom piping
- new exhaust and exhaust manifold
- gauges
- cylinder head studs
- engine management

Then there's labour on top of that and probably a heap of things I haven't mentioned. 400rwhp is a ton of power.

[AllGo'n'Show]

wooo I was just going to start a new thread about this.
Thanks Kriss for the links to some of the stuff I don't have linked yet.

I'm getting a local guy to fab up a kit for my car, goign to be running 5-8psi stock I think for now, hopefully make it last a season and have some fun. Next winter rebuild the engine and have even more fun next spring.

How long would an Auto tranny last on FI? Any chance in hell of finding a 6spd that would bolt up to the M30? or 5 spd?

[Kalevera]

If you're going to do a fresh rebuild, there are three options in my book: factory (the best), Leo Goff/the crew at Memphis Motorwerks (equally as good) or Jim Rowe/Metric Mechanic.

Without naming names, some of the alternatives mentioned earlier in this thread are known to not use OEM parts/sell junk/don't honor warranties.

It's not cheap, but it's probably also not necessary.

Frankly, I wouldn't waste the money on an engine rebuild. M30s are cheap. If you want to turbo it, do so and then replace the engine when it starts to knock or slap. My bet is that the blower will lunch its bearings before the engine does anything significant.

best, whit

[Robin-535im]

My two cents on reliable power...

Alpina's b10 bi-turbo made about 350 HP right? If they could have made more and kept it reliable, they certainly would have.

They surely had guys with Ph.D's in mechanical engineering, fluid dynamics, physics, etc., who worked a whole lot of hours to maxize power without severely reducing reliability. Plus, they had Getrag build them a special tranny and I think used a different rear end... our M30 trannys are built to last 200k miles with 200hp, certainly fewer with 400.

I bet you can stick something on there to get to 400... but if Alpina couldn't beat 350 and even then had to get a custom transmission, my sense is that a 400 HP M30 won't be "reliable" or "long term" unless you spend a whole lotta cash... more than it's worth.

For 15k you could get a pretty nice e34 ///M5, that already had the suspension, tranny and brakes built to handle the power. 350 hp with an EAT chip isn't too far out there.

Don't let me discourage your quest for power though - I just think a reliable 400hp is hard to make from an M30. Was that 2 cents? Maybe 3? :)

[Robin-535im]

I'll name names. I have a Bavarian Engine Exchange engine and I wouldn't buy from them again. Won't go into details... but I personally wouldn't shop there.

[AllGo'n'Show]

Lucky by the time I go shooting for 400whp this won't be a daily driver :D

[BigKriss]

wooo I was just going to start a new thread about this.
Thanks Kriss for the links to some of the stuff I don't have linked yet.

I'm getting a local guy to fab up a kit for my car, goign to be running 5-8psi stock I think for now, hopefully make it last a season and have some fun. Next winter rebuild the engine and have even more fun next spring.

How long would an Auto tranny last on FI? Any chance in hell of finding a 6spd that would bolt up to the M30? or 5 spd?
I've got an auto tranny also. I don't know how long they would last / how much torque they can take. I asked the same question to a gentleman in Australia. Here's the conversation verbatim. To do a 5 speed swap you probably have to find a wrecked 535i manual and swap all the parts over.

This isn't Beeto's car, its another dude from Brisbane who recently sold it.

okay get ready!

1.

Originally Posted by BigKriss
i was just reading a thread and you are the gentleman who had the e34 535i turbo that was in zoom magazine. How did the car run with a turbo and the auto gear box? did you change the stall speed? I loved that car. How fast was it over the quarter mile?


got it down to a flat 13.0 1/4 mile before i onsold it (with the manual conversion). the auto would not hold anymore than 180 rwhp. we tried boosting line pressure, different solenoids, extra clutch packs but it just didn't play ball.

2.

hanks very much for that. I don't think that 180rwhp was much and for the gearbox to go at that amount, I'm suprised. I thought they where much stronger. I dynoed my car recently and received 190rwhp, thats with the stock auto gearbox. I loved the water to air intercooler setup on your car. okay, thanks for your help. How did the car run with the auto gearbox?

regards

kristian yeah your right about the power being 'not that much' we just couldn't make it 'nice'. with more line pressure it would hold but under light load the gear changes were really harsh and sharp - even chirps the wheels. this is liveable and cool - for a short while but when you drive it every day it starts to **** you.

we actually used a 'commondore' valve in it because they were adjustable - to a point. without the turbo the auto gearbox changes would have been well worth it. but wiht the turbo and the quest for more power it just did not have any future in the car.

3. Thanks, finally, what diff where your running after the manual gearbox conversion? what was the ratio of the diff? how did you find it?

I ran a 750 lsd with a modified tailshaft. see my response with reagrds to the auto to manual gearbox swap in the other thread. sorry i can't remember the diff ratio.

Finally his comments of diffs;

"been there done that with my 535i when i turboed it. not sure what diff came with it but it wasn't a limited slip. i gave it an absolute hiding and it lasted really well i thought for around 350odd rwhp. if you are changing the diff upgrade the tailshaft. when i converted to a manual we had to make a new tailshaft so i took the opportunity to change to the above mentioned 7 series lsd diff. it is actually about an inch or two longer than the old 5 series one. this was one of the best things i did. the turboed 5 series are heavy so also make sure the centre bearing is ok. some may remember me at willowbank completely twisting the tailshaft until it broke. - see pic. this diff saw off two gearboxes (in the hands of the new owner who must drive somewhat suspectly) so the diff will handle it. I had a tailshaft made by the same people who make them for larry perkins and used a different centre bearing for the two piece tailshaft. if you haven't already adressed it you will need an extra heavy duty clutch.
hope this helps."

The engine bay

http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/4752/dscf0060a7hv.jpg

[Kalevera]

Robin, it's a Getrag 280, I believe. Same thing as is found on the M5. The 260/6 isn't exactly a robust transmission. I own two of them, I just went through one (245k, had a shitty rebuild at 150k) and am about to crack open the other (150k with lots of axial play in the front input bearing). The 265 is a superior transmission in terms of durability.

best, whit

[632 Regal]

Nos is a cool boost too, plus a rope down the cylinder can up compression.

[Jimbo]

Robin, it's a Getrag 280, I believe. Same thing as is found on the M5. The 260/6 isn't exactly a robust transmission. I own two of them, I just went through one (245k, had a shitty rebuild at 150k) and am about to crack open the other (150k with lots of axial play in the front input bearing). The 265 is a superior transmission in terms of durability.

best, whit

Actually, Robin was right, the Biturbo used a Getrag 290 specially developed for that application. At least according to this website http://web.telia.com/~u83106086/biturbopage/info.htm
.

[Alexlind123]

If i remember right, this article is about a car with a getrag holding 700hp

[Alexlind123]

oops, i forgot the link :S http://servo.postverket.us/alex/BMW.pdf

[permit]

For those of you listing prices and parts that would be needed to rebuild the head, is there a kit that includes everything you'd need to completely rebuild it? Or would I have to buy each part individually? That one list with the reinforced rockers, high-end valve springs etc. is only necessary for a turbo setup, but I want to know a price range for rebuilding to OEM specs, to run N/A. No turbo.

[motorman]

Have you considered supercharging (Not a belt driven turbo) but a twin screw helical rotor supercharger, yes, they cost horsepower to drive, they place a different kind of load on the pistons to a turbo (not quite as savage), they provide a nearly constant boost from near idle up, whipple in the usa make a range that can handle 30 psi + in boost if you want, there are books that you can read that will help, corcky bell does a good simple to read book that explains all, and you dont have to lower the copression on your motor if you dont want to, internal combustion temp is your enemy, whic can be controlled by water injection and intercooling (man I love superchargers)sorry for rambling on! Hey, give it some thought

[beetos]

My motor used to run a positive displacement supercharger but was never happy so the PO went turbo. I personally supercharged a 3.6 carrera with an eaton 90 blower and it used to knock like a bastard (they are 11:1 CR so I was not suprised!). Low end thrust was nice but the timing was so far retarded to prevent knocking, it was weak at the top end and I was worried it would burn exhaust valves. Personally, I would say the mid/top end power of a proper turbo is hard to beat if you can live with the bottom end lag. I actually like the way turbos treat the drivetrain by the way the power rolls on and the fact that most won't try to peel off the line unless they are determined. A blower hits like a brick off the line and you find yourself jumping off the line all the time. Pretty hard on the drivetrain.

I have always been a turbo junkie so I am probably biased but a blower feels really nice in a daily driver though.

As with any forced induction set up, there is no way a 20-30psi blower set up can be used without lowering CR if you do it properly so the costs become a wash.

Givent that you had to work the motor ($$$$), a low CR good intercooled turbo will have have cooler charge temps, less, parasitic drag and be far more efficient but will never make the bottom end torque of a lower boost / high CR blower set up. Mid to top end torque is a different story all together, this is where the turbo shines!

Interesting thread on tranny's, my 260/6 Getrag is still holdling on after 5 years of forced induction and much abuse, I try and go easy on it these days and enjoying breaking the rear loose in 2nd a lot but in 3rd when the car digs in, I can almost feel its pain! Like everyone else out there I am looking out for a 280 for when it finally lets go. So far its really suprised me. The diffs been done a few times including the infamous centre bearing.


One thing I would add is that a key factor with any forced induction upgrade is engine management and making sure the timing is mapped properly as well as the AFRs are in check under boost. Skimping on EMS after dropping thousands on mechanical mods is not the way to go.

Another thing to consider with a turbo on a big six is the wastegate location. It might appear the that putting it on top is the way to go but you can't get to the plugs if its not done right (I'm not sure its possible). I wonder if set up shown by Bigkriss above can change plugs without tearing down the exhaust manifold? Mine is underneath near the AC compressor and was moved for this reason. It hangs down fairly low but so far, no dramas.

[AllGo'n'Show]

*drools at beetos setup*

How much did you E6K run you? Do you know the difference between the E6K and the E6X?

Got any pics of your beast?

[Jay 535i]

Assuming I maintain the stock compression ratio (for the sake of cost), how much boost pressure is requried to get 400rwhp?

How 'bout 350?

300?

400 was a dream goal, but I'd certainly settle for less. I want to keep costs within reason. OTOH, I know there are guys around happily running that kind of power. I want to be one!

Can somebody who's achieved a reliable 300-400rwhp share their story, please?

I would consider supercharging if someone made a compelling case for it with the M30.

Thanks so much for all the info.

[Booster]

For those of us DIY'ers......is there a "BEST" donar salvage yard car to pick apart for stronger diffs and tranny's that common place here in the US ??
I planned for about 300hp at the crank and it sounds like the stock auto tranny's will blow way before this goal with any full gear pulls ? Bummer.
Best to start looking for back up upgrades NOW !:p
Anybody ???.............Vinny'

[Jay 535i]

Man, I'm starting to think there should be some sort of semi-official Bimmer.Info 400hp upgrade, approved by this community for longevity and performance. It should include everything necessary for a daily driver, including driveline upgrades if required. And maybe we could negotiate a special price with whomever is chosen to supply the kit.

This site already endorses the EAT chip. Why not a particular FI setup?

PS. Don't forget to answer my questions in Post #33 :D

[AllGo'n'Show]

Because its easier to sell a $200 chip then it is to sell a $1,500 or more FI kit. Less can go wrong as well. For the chip, seller claims no liability to anything other then the chip, so you **** your ecu up your screwed. Where as FI kit, you now havemore stress and thigns that can go wrong, putting more pressure on the sellers to make everything perfect and considering the amount of people who would buy one for an E32 or E34, not as many as a civic and look at the prices of those kits :O

Would be better off making your own, or like what I'm doing, using the locla turbo guru to make one. For example, I'm an avid member of beyond.ca, legendboy *corey* makes turbo kits, beyond basically endurses this, he has his own section basically, tons of stickies and everyone referrs to him for work. But the diffrence is Beyond.ca i smostly localized with some out of province members and out of country. Bimmer.info is all aroudn the world.

[Jay 535i]

Would be better off making your own, or like what I'm doing, using the locla turbo guru to make one.

If you end up being really happy with that, then why not make that the semi-official setup? Naturally, the buyer is responsible for anything that goes wrong short of a manufacturing defect.

You make good points, to be sure. Maybe it's not practical. It just seems like my question regarding a reliable FI setup is a common one. It would be good if there was a semi-official answer.

Anway, we're gettin' off topic!

[AllGo'n'Show]

Hey if I was overly happy with my setup and had no issues on the stock engine. If people put down payments on them, I can easily get EXACT kits put together the same with same manifolds etc.. for the E32 boys, don't have an E34 to make sure its the same but the E34 boys can buy one as well. Only difference would possibly be the turbo, as I just plan on using a used T3 To4E my buddy has lying around, basically new.

[Jay 535i]

Frankly, I wouldn't waste the money on an engine rebuild. M30s are cheap. If you want to turbo it, do so and then replace the engine when it starts to knock or slap. My bet is that the blower will lunch its bearings before the engine does anything significant.

best, whit

Thanks, Whit. Please see post #33.

In your opinion, assuming my engine is healthy, how much boost/horsepower can my engine and a stock 5-speed drivetrain handle while remaining reliable and driveable?

[Jay 535i]

This is from Turbocharging Dynamics:


Stage 1 = ~285rwhp/295rwtq at 8psi
Stage 2 = ~325rwhp/335rwtq at 11psi

These numbers are using our turbo exhaust system and on a healthy but stock motor.

You'll need to be sure that your entire drivetrain and rear suspension are in top condition. A SPEC S2 or S3 clutch is a good idea depending on your driving style. A hipo in tank fuel pump ($125) is also a good idea. When we remove the head we reinstall it with a MLS headgasket and ARP head studs.

I have a customer in Toronto flying around in his e34 535i with a S2 kit.

I could live with that.

Is that "Toronto customer" around here anywhere?