supercharging question

[bullyd]

as you may know from previous threads im planning on blowing my m30 535 but need to keep the price as low as poss, ive since been offered a few 'chargers and need some advice,
eaton m45
eaton m90
wade ro34
will i be able to run any of these with every thing else stock (other than the carbonfibre cold air induction kit and cat back 'zorst ive already fitted) or what will i need to upgrade? the m45 seems a little small but is very cheap :D :D like i say im new to forced induction and the order ive listed the 'chargers in is price low to high so for those in the know i would apprieciate your input, thanx in advance, daemon

[Kalevera]

I'm hardly an expert, but I don't think you'll be able to *usefully* run any of them with everything else "stock". You'll at least need improved fuel delivery components, and likely some sort of intercooler or water injection to keep the car from pinging.

Jon will have more to say.

best, whit

[Martin in Bellevue]

I think the mount fabrication and availability is the first issue with supacharging the m30. I do not know of any mount for the m30 available commercially. The crank pulley will also be fun.
Do you have a resource for these parts?

[BigKriss]

seach is your friend

http://www.kolumbus.fi/mikko.veikkanen/

http://users.tpg.com.au/schrick/528i%20Super%20charger.htm

[bullyd]

I think the mount fabrication and availability is the first issue with supacharging the m30. I do not know of any mount for the m30 available commercially. The crank pulley will also be fun.
Do you have a resource for these parts?

i have a few mates in the fabrication industry and i work for a motor factors so i have a whole catalogue of pulleys to choose from:D all i needed to know was :-
1. which charger was best
2. would the m45 be big enough
3. what other bits id need to get

thanks for your input though martin

[motorman]

I did some calculations for my car e34 535iA using the second size up with the whipple supercharger, std compression, intercooling, about 8lb of boost, also using a rising rate fuel pressure regulator (which leaves rest of fuel system stock) more boost required extra injectors and an extra ecu to control it. calculated hp with this setup including calculated power to drive the compressor was about 310. figures where based on info in a book on supercharging by corky bell, easy read and easy to understand

[bullyd]

I'm hardly an expert, but I don't think you'll be able to *usefully* run any of them with everything else "stock". You'll at least need improved fuel delivery components, and likely some sort of intercooler or water injection to keep the car from pinging.

Jon will have more to say.

best, whit

thanks whit, when you say 'fuel delivery components' do you mean upping the fuel pressure or bigger injectors or both? i was thinking about intercooling but i was under the impression that because s/c dont run off exhaust gasses intercooling wasnt absolutly necassary?
im not planning on running more than 5-7 psi

[bullyd]

seach is your friend

http://www.kolumbus.fi/mikko.veikkanen/

http://users.tpg.com.au/schrick/528i%20Super%20charger.htm

thanks kriss, pics/info very useful, i thought common sense would have said to mount to the engine not the body though??

[bullyd]

I did some calculations for my car e34 535iA using the second size up with the whipple supercharger, std compression, intercooling, about 8lb of boost, also using a rising rate fuel pressure regulator (which leaves rest of fuel system stock) more boost required extra injectors and an extra ecu to control it. calculated hp with this setup including calculated power to drive the compressor was about 310. figures where based on info in a book on supercharging by corky bell, easy read and easy to understand

:D :D so with a decent fpr i should be able to run 5-7 with no hassle then:D :D

[bahnstormer]

a RRFPR is good until about 10psi

its not the best way to tune fuel tho

u'll need larger injectors for sure
spark plugs 2 ranges colder will help

[kyleN20]

i though the the m30 used v belts, somthing i was told would not run a super, leaving turbo the only option for m30 engines, correct me if im wrong

[Kalevera]

Sure, you'll need injectors and some kind of fuel pressure regulator, as others have said.

Intercooling is never absolutely necessary, but it's a good idea compared to the alternatives that I know of. Both FI systems operate on the same principle: compress air and send it toward the intake. A supercharger uses crank horsepower to compress a charge, a turbo makes use of the natural flow of exhaust gases. The purpose of an intercooler is to cool the compressed air -- any time air is compressed, or anything else that I can think of, for that matter, heat is generated. Air density also changes, and both elements will affect the efficiency of the setup.

There are a few good sources of info to check out before you consider doing this....be sure to read Corky Bell's book.

best, whit

[genphreak]

i though the the m30 used v belts, somthing i was told would not run a super, leaving turbo the only option for m30 engines, correct me if im wrongYou'd have to convert it over- not impossible to do, but you'd want to have access to a bunch of pulleys (from newer (but worn-out) GM/Jap cars) and be able to fab your own bracketry... Turbo is an easier route as you can avoid this, but the cost of the Turbo is more. At least it will come with better efficiency on top! :) Nick

[kyleN20]

i was told the superchargers are in no way more efficent then a turbo, because of the overall drag the super puts on with the belt will always be greater then the drag/ engine load of a turbo, true or fales?

[Jay 535i]

i was told the superchargers are in no way more efficent then a turbo, because of the overall drag the super puts on with the belt will always be greater then the drag/ engine load of a turbo, true or fales?

True, I think, but there are other ways in which a supercharger might be preferable to a turbocharger. A more linear and predictable power delivery, for example.

[kyleN20]

i see, but for a truly real look into the question turbo vs. super, for an m30, which do you plan to do to your m30?

[Jay 535i]

i see, but for a truly real look into the question turbo vs. super, for an m30, which do you plan to do to your m30?

For me, whichever gives more results for the money. My understanding is, on the M30, that means turbocharging.

You can always do both :D

[kyleN20]

haha, ok, ill do a turbo, u do a super, and in the end we will do a power to cost ratio, may the best man win

[Jay 535i]

haha, ok, ill do a turbo, u do a super, and in the end we will do a power to cost ratio, may the best man win

Uh, I hope there's enough experience around here so that it's not my car that's the guinea pig. :)

And turbo seems to be the general consensus for the M30. Jon's doing well with his supercharged M50, though.

[kyleN20]

true true, if i had an m50 i would more than likly do the super thing, and trubo for m30, but because i have no mone for either, ill just search for a 540/6 and chip it, its really all you need, and all i want, i love the sport seats, i love the six speed, and i love V8's. thats alot of love, and avaible for a super, sooooo????

[bullyd]

i agree that turbo is the simpler route but im only opting for a charger as i can pick one up for peanuts and getting hold of a bunch of pulleys to match up is no problem to me :D im not gonna run any more than 5 psi boost as i want my engine to stay reliable! my car seems to have enough power as it is, but, i want to add forced induction to my list of mods and a super seems to be the cheapest way of doing that. and if what this thread is pointing to is true then i might be getting myself quite a rare beast in a s/c m30! im gonna chat to our injector supplier tomorrow and see what they can come up with to up the fuel going in, (anyone who knows what injectors are good and has part numbers and or good suppliers, please feel free to post 'em)

does anyone know if ill need to get the ecu remapped for the extra fuel/air coming in or will the original map 'learn' the new mixtures?:p

[kyleN20]

for that, talk to jon k about a megasquirt standalone fuel managment system, or may dont even bug him till you read up a bit. i did and everthing he said went over my head, so read about mega squirt, then ask jon k

[Jay 535i]

i agree that turbo is the simpler route but im only opting for a charger as i can pick one up for peanuts and getting hold of a bunch of pulleys to match up is no problem to me :D im not gonna run any more than 5 psi boost as i want my engine to stay reliable! my car seems to have enough power as it is, but, i want to add forced induction to my list of mods and a super seems to be the cheapest way of doing that.

I'd love to know more about your plans, and to keep up with your progress!

[Jon K]

I can speak from experience...

Making a belt system is NOT easy.

M30 has V-belts man. You are NEVER going to spin a blower with a V-belt. You need to do either a dedicated 6 ribbed belt bumped off the front of the crank pulley.. meaning a new crank pulley with a ribber pulley built on. Or, convert the ENTIRE belt system to ribbed serpentine belt. This one be very easy because I am not sur eyou'll be able to get a belt to snake through the front of an m30... there are probably obstructions. M30 is not happy being supercharged.

@ Kyle:

Sorry if I was too technical. If you need me to explain just le me know. Guys please read my HUGE thread on megasquirt fabrication. You can search for all the hoops I went to fabricating my own supercharger mount and belt system... let alone charge pipes and now ECU system :D

[bullyd]

I can speak from experience...

Making a belt system is NOT easy.

M30 has V-belts man. You are NEVER going to spin a blower with a V-belt. You need to do either a dedicated 6 ribbed belt bumped off the front of the crank pulley.. meaning a new crank pulley with a ribber pulley built on. Or, convert the ENTIRE belt system to ribbed serpentine belt. This one be very easy because I am not sur eyou'll be able to get a belt to snake through the front of an m30... there are probably obstructions. M30 is not happy being supercharged.

jon, if i replace the cooling fan with a slimline electric one would there be anything stopping me pulling off the crank pulley and getting a pulley made up with a ribbed belt pulley 'piggy backing' the v-belt pulley? then run the belt from crank to s/c only? also as you seem to be great when it comes to forced induction, do you know how much boost it is possible to run (reliably)with only an uprated fpr installed on oe injectors with out causing pinging or other problems? cheers in advance

[Jon K]

jon, if i replace the cooling fan with a slimline electric one would there be anything stopping me pulling off the crank pulley and getting a pulley made up with a ribbed belt pulley 'piggy backing' the v-belt pulley? then run the belt from crank to s/c only? also as you seem to be great when it comes to forced induction, do you know how much boost it is possible to run (reliably)with only an uprated fpr installed on oe injectors with out causing pinging or other problems? cheers in advance


Ok here's the deal. You could do that, however you are going to have two issues. 1) I really doubt youre going to find a radiator thin enough, and also you're forgetting fans will be in the way. 2) there's more to worry about than just the radiator/fans. The waterpump, the upper and lower radiator hoses, and weird pertrusion from the front of the motor. For instance, i had to change my belt system about 5 times total because the belt would fit but it was getting dangerously close to the radiator hose/etc.

As per the RRFPR...

Lets say your engine has 17# injectors stock @ 3 bar (43.5 psi). You can't allow the RRFPR to boost the fuel pressure TOO high or you'll tear hoses or, more likely, cause the injector valve to stick either open or closed (closed = worse than open, but you don't get to pick ;) ). So, 75 psi is about the MAX I would ever allow an RRFPR to rise to. Injectors rated 17# @ 3 bar, will run only 21.6# @ 70 psi. This not including any retardation to the injector valve (should it stick or not). So with 21.6# injectors, I'd say your max boost is probably like 8psi - 10 psi. That's about where I am. However, I am going to a standalone system because:

RRFPR is not accurate.

When you got WOT making boost, and the fuel pressure goes up to 70ish, when you let off, it doesnt evacuate pressure immediately, so you run richer than ideal @ let off... i blow black smoke pretty frequently when I let off between shifts.

[Jay 535i]

i blow black smoke pretty frequently when I let off between shifts.

That sounds bad. I know a lot of seemingly reputable turbo kit makers for the E34 suggest a RRFPR is adequate. But what you're describing sounds like it will ruin your cat. No?

[bullyd]

That sounds bad. I know a lot of seemingly reputable turbo kit makers for the E34 suggest a RRFPR is adequate. But what you're describing sounds like it will ruin your cat. No?
im removing my cat as theres no legal requirement for it on my age of car in the uk:D

[Jon K]

That sounds bad. I know a lot of seemingly reputable turbo kit makers for the E34 suggest a RRFPR is adequate. But what you're describing sounds like it will ruin your cat. No?


Yes, eventually this will ruin the cats. But I am not sure how long it'd take. Any unburnt fuel through a catalytic converter is generally frowned upon.

[bullyd]

Ok here's the deal. You could do that, however you are going to have two issues. 1) I really doubt youre going to find a radiator thin enough, and also you're forgetting fans will be in the way. 2) there's more to worry about than just the radiator/fans. The waterpump, the upper and lower radiator hoses, and weird pertrusion from the front of the motor. For instance, i had to change my belt system about 5 times total because the belt would fit but it was getting dangerously close to the radiator hose/etc.

As per the RRFPR...

Lets say your engine has 17# injectors stock @ 3 bar (43.5 psi). You can't allow the RRFPR to boost the fuel pressure TOO high or you'll tear hoses or, more likely, cause the injector valve to stick either open or closed (closed = worse than open, but you don't get to pick ;) ). So, 75 psi is about the MAX I would ever allow an RRFPR to rise to. Injectors rated 17# @ 3 bar, will run only 21.6# @ 70 psi. This not including any retardation to the injector valve (should it stick or not). So with 21.6# injectors, I'd say your max boost is probably like 8psi - 10 psi. That's about where I am. However, I am going to a standalone system because:

RRFPR is not accurate.

When you got WOT making boost, and the fuel pressure goes up to 70ish, when you let off, it doesnt evacuate pressure immediately, so you run richer than ideal @ let off... i blow black smoke pretty frequently when I let off between shifts.
im planning only 5-7 psi so im good?(am i), not liking what hearing about this belt business though, ill have a measure up over the holidays, thanks jon

[DCR]

i agree that turbo is the simpler route but im only opting for a charger as i can pick one up for peanuts and getting hold of a bunch of pulleys to match up is no problem to me
Getting supercharger cheap doesnt make the overall job that much more cost effective. Thats like saying I am building a house because I can get bricks cheap. On the big scale of things, the initial outlay of the S/C is not that expensive.

[Jon K]

im planning only 5-7 psi so im good?(am i), not liking what hearing about this belt business though, ill have a measure up over the holidays, thanks jon


I am not even exaggerating when I say this: Measure what you THINK your belt layout would like in a perfect world. Then, plan for at least 10 - 15 modifications to pulleys, pulley sizes, belt lengths, belt brands, etc.

remember, the more turns in your belt, the greater the overall tension is going to have to be. Also, you have to consider belt slip. Belts ar edesigned to slip somewhat. If they don't they get REALLY hot. Ask my arm about how hot they get ;) When designing your idler pulley setup, keep the turns as far away from one another as possible - heat builds as the belt has to change direction in a close proximity to itself. General rule of thumb for a supercharger is that with less than about 110 degrees of belt wrap, youre risking belt slip.

[bullyd]

are there any good stockist you know of that will ship to the uk?
is a rrfpr the same as an ' FSE power boost valve'? i.e
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/FSE-Power-Boost-Valve-Alfa-Ford-Bmw-Lancia_W0QQitemZ8023233054QQcategoryZ72205QQrdZ1QQ cmdZViewItem
or if not can you please post a link for what im looking for,
thanks

[bullyd]

bump

[535ise]

No, the FSE valves are ment for N/A engines i think and they are a waste of time even then.

RRFPR + rising rate fuel pressure regulator

I'm not into F/I (yet !) so one of the F/I boys should be able to recomend one for you ?

Try looking on the US ebay site ?

HTH

Andy

[bullyd]

this one??


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/vortech-fmu-rrfpr-6-1-240sx-turbo-mustang-supercharger_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33553QQite mZ8024501052QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

[Jon K]

this one??


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/vortech-fmu-rrfpr-6-1-240sx-turbo-mustang-supercharger_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33553QQite mZ8024501052QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW


Thats an RRFPR but is fixed rate, non adjustable 6:1 ratio...


I dont know why you're ACTIVELY seeking an RRFPR. They sorta aren't desireable. I will have one for sale if you want one.

[Jay 535i]

I dont know why you're ACTIVELY seeking an RRFPR. They sorta aren't desireable. I will have one for sale if you want one.

This Turbocharging Dynamics kit includes an RRFRP, and it's the kit I have my eye on for the future:

http://www.turbochargingdynamics.com/tcd_catal_e_Turbo_m30.htm

Are you saying I should away from it? If the web site's content and my email correspondence with the guys there is anything to go by, the kit develops a reliable 285rwhp without the intercooler, 325rwhp with. Why should I care that it has an RRFRP?

Thanks for educating me about all this crazy stuff :D

[BigKriss]

http://img465.imageshack.us/img465/9548/rrfpr3wl.jpg

[Jay 535i]

Thanks for that, BigKris!

So how do you eliminate the RRFRP? The article implies that the alternative is an ECU remap. Is that so? What's involved with that?

Also, the article states that the biggest limitation of the RRFRP is that you can't fine tune the fuel mixture at moderate boost pressures. On the Turbocharging Dynamics website they say:


The Cartech RRFPR that we endorse has variable rise. This feature allows for fine adjustment of the fuel pressure on boost and hence fine adjustment of the air/fuel ratio on boost.

Does that address the fine tuning problem? Help me understand this! :)

[BigKriss]

Two options, get Mark D to write you a chip via dyno sessions OR follow Jon K's lead.

[Jay 535i]

Two options, get Mark D to write you a chip via dyno sessions OR follow Jon K's lead.

The former sounds doable.

And that'll really negate the need for a RRFRP? Can my stock FPR keep up?

[Jon K]

The former sounds doable.

And that'll really negate the need for a RRFRP? Can my stock FPR keep up?


just install a 3.5 bar FPR, then its just a matter of getting injectors that can handle the amount of air you are using, but are also able to hold an idle.

[TCD]

I just want to clear up some misinformation regard RRFPRs in this thread. The BEGI RRFPR that we supply in our kit is fully adjustable for rate of rise and initial fuel pressure at atmospheric. It has no communication with the engine ecu. It increases fuel pressure with increases in boost pressure. With properly sized injectors and in combination with one of our chips it works great.

Tuning the full curve in the chip will not work. The stock Motronics has no MAP sensor and will never no when or how much boost the engine has in the manifold.

Sure, aftermarket engine management systems that utilze a map sensor are ideal but the RRFPR in our kit works very well.

Todd
Turbo Charging Dynamics

[Jay 535i]

I just want to clear up some misinformation regard RRFPRs in this thread. The BEGI RRFPR that we supply in our kit is fully adjustable for rate of rise and initial fuel pressure at atmospheric. It has no communication with the engine ecu. It increases fuel pressure with increases in boost pressure. With properly sized injectors and in combination with one of our chips it works great.

Tuning the full curve in the chip will not work. The stock Motronics has no MAP sensor and will never no when or how much boost the engine has in the manifold.

Sure, aftermarket engine management systems that utilze a map sensor are ideal but the RRFPR in our kit works very well.

Todd
Turbo Charging Dynamics

Thanks, Todd!

I've got a piggy bank with your name on it :)

[Robbo]

Hi gentlemen,

I see the old s/c v turbo debate is still going strong. My take is that a turbo conversion will be more expensive as this requires engine work due to the higher pressures achieved, and is also expensive because of exhaust mods.

A s/c creates lower boost pressures, usually about 7 boost, so needs no radical engine work.

The cheapest way is to buy one already converted as I did.

However, a word of caution, I only paid £2500 for the car, but it cost about the same again when it broke. Remember, these are old cars with a lot of miles!

I miss the thing (it had 305BHP - reading from TDI's rolling road) but happily for my wallet I don't own the car any more.

[Jon K]

that is a really really bizzare supercharger, never seent that one.