Book rates: the saga continues

[Jay 535i]

This is a continuation of this thread:

http://www.bimmer.info/forum/showthread.php?t=16530

I was really curious about their "book rates", so I decided to call around, just for fun. I called seven different BMW dealerships in the Toronto area, and asked for a labor quote to:

1. Install a windshield wiper drive rod
2. Install two front turn signal lenses
3. Install a new brake light switch

The quotes below reflect ONLY labor. I provided my own parts. Remember, all these dealers are within 30km of each other.

BMW Autohaus
Wiper rod: 2.5 hours
Turn signal lenses: 2.0 hours
Brake switch: 1.0 hours

Budds' BMW
Wiper rod: 3.0 hours
Turn signal lenses: 1.0 hours
Brake switch: 2.0 hours

Town + Country BMW
Wiper rod: 4.0 hours
Turn signal lenses: 0.5 hours
Brake switch: 1.5 hours

BMW of Mississauga
Wiper rod: 0.8 hours
Turn signal lenses: 0.5 hours
Brake switch: 0.5 hours

Maranello BMW
Wiper rod: What the **** is that?
Turn signal lenses: 1.0 hours
Brake switch: 0.6 hours

Parkview BMW
Spoke to a guy who said he'd call back in five. Never did.

BMW Toronto (flagship store)
Spoke to a guy who said he'd call back in five. Never did.

At $107/hr, these differences are substantial. $450 seperates the highest quote from the lowest.

This all started when I got IRATE when one dealership told me they were going to charge me 6 hours' labor for 90 minutes' work, because they go "by the book rate". How, then, can five different BMW dealerships within a half-hour drive of one another give five differing quotes (nevermind the two dealerships who couldn't be bothered returning a customer's call)?

Does anyone have an explanation for what's going on here, besides fraud? I wonder if the press would be interested in my story. No doubt these discrepancies bilk BMW customers out of many thousands of dollars every day.

What the **** is going on here, where is this so-called 'book', and why does it seem like no two dealers use the same one?

[Qube]

Thanks for the insight. It pays to shop around. I'm curious though, why just dealers now? Based on my thread and mostly Mark's help...

Bimmersport
1765 Shawson Dr, Unit 13
Mississauga, Ontario
905-670-9200
416-823-2BMW

Autotrend on Broadview
http://www.autotrend.net/

Lakeside Motors at Kennedy and Lawrence

BRUNO! in 'sauga

And for light work, I go to my indy, Willie's Auto (Markham). If that guy were more honest, he'd be out of business.

[Derek A.]

A. When you call up a shop with specific tasks. They know you had it diagnosed someplace else and are totally shopping price. Furthermore - they are at a disadvantage becuase they don't know who made the diagnosis and what the root problems are.

B. There is a program called KSD. Its what the dealers use to look up labor operations. Its based on a measure of time called a FRU. The translation into labor hours varies a bit - as BMW's labor rates is on a sliding scale of difficulty. Rewiring an E65 pays more per hour than a shift knob replacement on an e34.

c. This is customer pay work. There is no standard. The dealer can quote what they want. They may know that its a 15 year old car and to pad the time becuase stuff is going to break. Maybe the guys in the shop aren't familiar with the older cars. Regardless - they can charge what they want.

d. Providing your own parts is another way that the dealer says - this is not worth our time to pursue. Did the guy by the right parts? are they going to break on us? If a part fails do we need to cover is under our warranty? Am I going to marry this job if it goes sideways?

e. The by the book rate has nothing to do with how long a tech can perform an operation. My buddy holds the record at a dealership. He billed 38 hours of labor in one day. He is good, is organized and has the real estate to perform he makes money. If the guys takes 10 hours to do a job that pays two - that is all he gets paid for. Its a simple system.

The press has no interest in this its just the way the business runs. A BMW dealer is out there to make money - and a DIY'er on a 15 year old car just doesn't spell money.

Hope this helps.

D.-

[Black 535i]

I had some work done on my 92 535i two years ago at BMW Mississauga and they were very accomodating and knowledgable. My clutch went out on the Thanksgiving day weekend while on vacation there and they did everything they could to get me out of there ASAP but I had to wait for the part. Once it was in they got me out of there in 3 hours or so. A little more expensive than my indy here in Chicago but beggars can't be choosers. Ask for Brad McCallum if he is still there.


Thanks for the insight. It pays to shop around. I'm curious though, why just dealers now? Based on my thread and mostly Mark's help...


Bimmersport
1765 Shawson Dr, Unit 13
Mississauga, Ontario
905-670-9200
416-823-2BMW

Autotrend on Broadview
http://www.autotrend.net/

Lakeside Motors at Kennedy and Lawrence

BRUNO! in 'sauga

And for light work, I go to my indy, Willie's Auto (Markham). If that guy were more honest, he'd be out of business.

[Jay 535i]

I'm curious though, why just dealers now?

Just for my own amusement, and the community's benefit.

Derek, what you've written doesn't address the simple fact that the dealer told me that she charges what the book says, period. And that all BMW dealers use the same book. So, at best, if everything you said is true, she lied. At worst, her lie is part of a conspiracy to defraud BMW customers.

I can understand how some confusion about interpreting the book could lead to this, but a company as big and presumably well-organized as BMW shouldn't have every dealer making up their own ****. That's just bad business. I mean, how hard can it be to devise some sort of standard? Imagine if every McDonald's made up their own price for a Big Mac. And their customers haven't even written five-figure checks.

BTW, FWIW, the parts came from the dealer. The diagnosis came from this forum, and turned out to be 100% right. My indy did the work in the end.

[dacoyote]

Let this horse die... please

Some dealers are crooks... so are some Indys... whats the point...

you know.. water is wet...

[Jay 535i]

Let this horse die... please

Some dealers are crooks... so are some Indys... whats the point...

you know.. water is wet...

My point is that there appears to be a problem in the system, and that customers pay the price. If BMW dealerships are SYSTEMATICALLY defrauding customers, then I certainly think that is worth discussing.

I'm not making genalizations or trying to devise some pantheon of garage goodwill. I'm talking only about BMW dealers. What others do is irrelevant in this discussion.

If you don't find this thread helpful, you don't have to participate, but I am trying to save others the aggravation that I went through, and also trying to get some answers. If someone tried to steal $600 from you, you'd want answers, too.

When/if I hear a reasonable explanation, I'll let it go.

[Derek A.]

Without seeing the car. She talked to a tech and got a number,probably from memory. At bestm tried to bring it up in KSD and they probably choose different opertations or a combination of operations.

So yes - its all based on BMW information - which is the same. No - there is not a conspiracy. Its all about qualifying a sale. You don't invest time and effort with a guy on the phone who already has parts and a dignosis. You schmooze the guy who is clueless and has his car already at the shop. All part of the service business.

[dacoyote]

My point is that we spent what... 68 posts last time talking about this....

You know... Ford 5 years ago was the same thing... in fact the price was different talking to a diff service manager.... I bet it is the same thing today.

There are serveral people on the board that work at dealerships. They posted their 2cents about it.

It's like the people that ask... I have a 55 - 60 mph shimmy... whats wrong....

[Jay 535i]

So yes - its all based on BMW information - which is the same. No - there is not a conspiracy. Its all about qualifying a sale. You don't invest time and effort with a guy on the phone who already has parts and a dignosis. You schmooze the guy who is clueless and has his car already at the shop. All part of the service business.

No doubt you're right. But I still don't understand.

I was told by the dealer that there is a book. The book lists prices. I pay what the book says.

Is the book so vague or open to interpretation that 5 different dealers can derrive five different quotes from it? You seem to be saying "yes". If that's the case, what's the point of the book?

These dealers are not supposed to compete against one another. They're supposed to serve their customers. So why is there no consensus on labor rates?

I appreciate what you're saying about qualifying a sale, but I don't see how that's relevant. If what I was told is true, then giving me a quote is as simple as looking it up in a book. My 'qualifications' are irrelevant. Unless they're being used to fudge the book rates, which, I assert, is just plain wrong, and contrary to what the dealer told me.

I'm not gonna argue any more. If you think I'm making a big deal out of nothing, that's fine. I frankly don't see how you can fail to see the inequity going on here. It's like calling up McDonalds and asking how much a Big Mac is, and rather than getting a straight answer the reply is a mix of what's written on the menu, what the cashier feels like on that day, and how hungry I am.

[CheapCheap1]

Well, as the "new" BMW ads, all maintenance works (including the brake pads & wipers) are FREE !!!
(Yeah, right...it's FREE. However, BMWNA may get the bills later on at a "big" discounted rate...)

So, the $tealer has to make up some $$$ by jacking up the "time" referred as a "book rate"...huhhh ???

Huhhh, it just scared the **** of me...
- Does anyone know how much the "book rate" $tealer will be charging for reset the air-bag light ?
- Should I buy a Peake tool & DIY ?

[dacoyote]

...
Huhhh, it just scared the **** of me...
- Does anyone know how much the "book rate" $tealer will be charging for reset the air-bag light ?
- Should I buy a Peake tool & DIY ?

I wanta say it's 250 bucks to run the dignostics... then if they find anything... it goes from there...

Do you know why the light is on?

[Jay 535i]

My point is that we spent what... 68 posts last time talking about this....

Yeah, and we left off saying that I'd call other dealers to see if I get the same answer. It was a sort of experiment to see if they really do use book rates. As far as I can tell, they don't. Or, if they do, then the book is only one variable in determining the cost to the customer.

I thought the phone calls I'd made and the results I'd posted would be helpful to some. Sorry if you disagree.

[dacoyote]

... It's like calling up McDonalds and asking how much a Big Mac is, and rather than getting a straight answer the reply is a mix of what's written on the menu, what the cashier feels like on that day, and how hungry I am...

Thats exactly what it is... it's a point of life

[Jay 535i]

Thats exactly what it is... it's a point of life

Perhaps, but it can still be "wrong", can't it? And I have a right to complain about being wronged, don't I? And perhaps even try to do something about it, or keep my friends (that's you, BTW) from suffering the same fate?

[pundit]

It's not uncommon to be charged more for labor if you supply your own parts.
First the shop is making nothing on the parts so they'll often make it up by slugging you extra for fitting them.
It may not be ethical but many businesses do it. They're argument could be that they are in business to supply both parts & labor and if you prevent them making anything on the parts then they may feel quite entitled to make it up on the labor and if you don't like that well....?

Secondly as they can't be sure of the nature of the parts they are being asked to fit, they'll often include some extra 'fat' in the labor quote to cover any unforseen fitment difficulties. This can be considered a more legitmate reason as anyone who has ever given a standard fixed labor quote will tell you after being given faulty or poor quality parts to fit only to have the customer refuse to allow a variation when the job turns into a nightmare.

.5 of an hour may be enough to fit a genuine BMW indicator lamp assembly but if it was an aftermarket Taiwanese unit bought off Ebay, it may not.
On many occasions I have seen fenders requiring holes to be enlongated with a file in order to make a lamp assembly fit. These cheap non-genuine Asian parts were supplied by insurance companies as part of an accident repair. Insurance companies pay based on their own book rate. And guess how much extra time they would allow to make these cheap non-fitting parts fit?
You guessed it... zero!

As for the overall difference in the quotes, well it doesn't matter what kind of book anyone has, if you get half a dozen quotes you'll get up to half a dozen variations. If all the quotes had been identical I would have been surprised.

[Black 535i]

I think that it is sommon sense to say that we should shop around for work that we want done on our cars and we will always get varying prices. I charge varying amounts for my CAD services based on things such as: time, square footage, number drawing sheets, etc. so the dealer can charge what they like and if we don't like it we can go somewhere else. I lose jobs because of my prices sometimes and then make up for it later down the road. An over the phone estimate will NEVER be accurate and to drive around and ask them to price the work is time consuming and unwarranted. Just check out some costs and go with your gut. If you do not like the work after go somewhere else.



This is a continuation of this thread:

http://www.bimmer.info/forum/showthread.php?t=16530

I was really curious about their "book rates", so I decided to call around, just for fun. I called seven different BMW dealerships in the Toronto area, and asked for a labor quote to:

1. Install a windshield wiper drive rod
2. Install two front turn signal lenses
3. Install a new brake light switch

The quotes below reflect ONLY labor. I provided my own parts. Remember, all these dealers are within 30km of each other.

BMW Autohaus
Wiper rod: 2.5 hours
Turn signal lenses: 2.0 hours
Brake switch: 1.0 hours

Budds' BMW
Wiper rod: 3.0 hours
Turn signal lenses: 1.0 hours
Brake switch: 2.0 hours

Town + Country BMW
Wiper rod: 4.0 hours
Turn signal lenses: 0.5 hours
Brake switch: 1.5 hours

BMW of Mississauga
Wiper rod: 0.8 hours
Turn signal lenses: 0.5 hours
Brake switch: 0.5 hours

Maranello BMW
Wiper rod: What the **** is that?
Turn signal lenses: 1.0 hours
Brake switch: 0.6 hours

Parkview BMW
Spoke to a guy who said he'd call back in five. Never did.

BMW Toronto (flagship store)
Spoke to a guy who said he'd call back in five. Never did.

At $107/hr, these differences are substantial. $450 seperates the highest quote from the lowest.

This all started when I got IRATE when one dealership told me they were going to charge me 6 hours' labor for 90 minutes' work, because they go "by the book rate". How, then, can five different BMW dealerships within a half-hour drive of one another give five differing quotes (nevermind the two dealerships who couldn't be bothered returning a customer's call)?

Does anyone have an explanation for what's going on here, besides fraud? I wonder if the press would be interested in my story. No doubt these discrepancies bilk BMW customers out of many thousands of dollars every day.

What the **** is going on here, where is this so-called 'book', and why does it seem like no two dealers use the same one?

[Jay 535i]

Okay, I will let it rest. This is my last post in this thread.

But you guys are still missing my point.

You're saying that rates vary based on the circumstances. That would be fine if the service rep hadn't told me otherwise. She told me that the book is the only variable, and that is clearly not true.

No two CAD jobs are the same, but one brake switch installation is much the same as another. That's why there's a book. If they're using the book only as a guide, they should say so. Had I gone along with them blindly, I would have paid $450 more than at another BMW dealer down the street, and I was never made aware of that fact. On the contrary, I was lead to believe that all dealers would charge me the same. I was lied to for the purpose of extortion, and that is what's unethical and bothersome.

[CheapCheap1]

It's definitely wrong...
May be you should write to BMW-NA & complain about the discrepency on its "book rate" charged by $tealers?

I just wonder how BMW-NA will response...


Perhaps, but it can still be "wrong", can't it? And I have a right to complain about being wronged, don't I? And perhaps even try to do something about it, or keep my friends (that's you, BTW) from suffering the same fate?

[Bill R.]

an example my sister recently built a new house, they acted as their own general contractors and subbed out all the work that they couldn't do. For the block walls for the exterior of the house they got over 10 quotes, the price variation from one mason to another ranged more than 40k dollars to do the same job, same thing with the painting contractors, the only fields that were very close to each other with less than a 10% variation were the electricians and the plumbers. More than 10 quotes for each and they came up within 10% of each other without seeing anybody elses quotes. All other areas on the house had tremendous variations. So its the same with everything , you have to shop around for the best combination of price ,quality,service etc. Dealer are just like anybody else,someones going to push for more money somewhere. Get over it.




Okay, I will let it rest. This is my last post in this thread.

But you guys are still missing my point.

You're saying that rates vary based on the circumstances. That would be fine if the service rep hadn't told me otherwise. She told me that the book is the only variable, and that is clearly not true.

No two CAD jobs are the same, but one brake switch installation is much the same as another. That's why there's a book. If they're using the book only as a guide, they should say so. Had I gone along with them blindly, I would have paid $450 more than at another BMW dealer down the street, and I was never made aware of that fact. On the contrary, I was lead to believe that all dealers would charge me the same. I was lied to for the purpose of extortion, and that is what's unethical and bothersome.

[Jay 535i]

an example my sister recently built a new house, they acted as their own general contractors and subbed out all the work that they couldn't do. For the block walls for the exterior of the house they got over 10 quotes, the price variation from one mason to another ranged more than 40k dollars to do the same job, same thing with the painting contractors, the only fields that were very close to each other with less than a 10% variation were the electricians and the plumbers. More than 10 quotes for each and they came up within 10% of each other without seeing anybody elses quotes. All other areas on the house had tremendous variations. So its the same with everything , you have to shop around for the best combination of price ,quality,service etc. Dealer are just like anybody else,someones going to push for more money somewhere. Get over it.

But those contractors didn't all claim to be derriving their quotes from the same book, did they?

OF COURSE you should shop around for most things. But you wouldn't expect that shopping 10 different Wal-Marts would get you 10 different quotes for Cheaper By The Dozen on DVD, would you?

Sorry, I know I broke my own rule and posted again. But this analogy is not, um, analogous. Compare apples and apples, please, and remember that, unlike the subcontractors in your story, BMW claims to use a book that results in consistent pricing across multiple dealers.

[dacoyote]

LOL... it's the horse that will not die.....

/me gets out his S & W problem solver

[Robin-535im]

Jay - I'm with you 1000%. But wait wait - I still have two cents to toss in.. :)

It is both unethical and commonplace to overcharge people... but not against the law. That's why you should Always call THREE PLACES for any work / part you're not an expert in.

Each place you call, ask a ton of questions and learn all you can. The first call you sound like a doofus. The next one you call, you know the buzzwords and can sound 1/2 way intelligent on the topic. By the third call you have a good understanding of the problem and three quotes... and can make a pretty good decision.

I'm with you Jay. There are lots of good, honest shops out there... and lots that put profit ahead of best value for the customer. They *should* be all the same, but apparently they've found some leeway in the system to "use the book" yet still "interpret the book on the fly."

[Derek A.]

You are failing to understand the dynamic that is at work here.

You call dealer. Ask your questions. Service writer may not know a 15 year ols car. May know nothing. Has to ask a tech for information on the job. The tech shoots from the hip because the service writer says - "guy on phone - wants x done on 15 year old car - has own parts.. what do I tell him" Which puts it in the ballpark. Keep in mind that the KSD - BMW flat rates still exist. You were given an ESTIMATE !.

When you have the repair done - there is still going to be some variance:
1. Shop labor rate.
2. Additional time to complete the job as something was seized up or somthing else was discovered. Remember you did not let the tech diagnose the job.
3. Additional parts that need to be used.
4. Shop supplies.

Anything that you are going to get over the phone is just a rough ESTIMATE. The shop needs an opporunity to look at the car - before they can firm anything up. And as I mentioned before - when you are quoting a specific job on the phone the writer knows that you are no going to bite. As you are only shopping price.

So get over the consipiracy theory. The BMW KSD exists and dealers do use it. If I had a copy here I would post it and let you play with it - its a ****ed up program.

D.-



But those contractors didn't all claim to be derriving their quotes from the same book, did they?

OF COURSE you should shop around for most things. But you wouldn't expect that shopping 10 different Wal-Marts would get you 10 different quotes for Cheaper By The Dozen on DVD, would you?

Sorry, I know I broke my own rule and posted again. But this analogy is not, um, analogous. Compare apples and apples, please, and remember that, unlike the subcontractors in your story, BMW claims to use a book that results in consistent pricing across multiple dealers.

[Zeuk in Oz]

Bill R got it right - welcome to the real world !

At the sake of moving this thread up again may I just make a couple of observations.

1. Jaylebo, this line of enquiry will drive you nuts : there is no fundamental law or design overseeing motor vehicle repairs. There is no automotive god who makes sure that everything in vehicle repairs is fair.

The world is a nasty place and this includes when it comes to paying for a mechanic's services, dealer or not.

Shop around but realise that not everything is measurable in terms of money - it might well be that the best choice amongst your quotes is one of the dearer ones as they might be the only crowd who know what they are doing.

2. What you appear to be looking for is a mechanic you can trust. This cannot usually be identified with a range of quotes - it takes time to build a relationship with someone.

3. With due respect, your apparently almost evangelical enthusiasm and attitude on this quest of yours is easily identified by those you are questioning.

Have you considered that some might have given you high quotes to get rid of you - they didn't want to do your work because they were afraid you might be a PITA ! :D

4. Please listen to wise men and women like Bill R on this forum, seek their opinions and take their advice !

[Jay 535i]

You are failing to understand the dynamic that is at work here.

You call dealer. Ask your questions. Service writer may not know a 15 year ols car. May know nothing. Has to ask a tech for information on the job. The tech shoots from the hip because the service writer says - "guy on phone - wants x done on 15 year old car - has own parts.. what do I tell him" Which puts it in the ballpark. Keep in mind that the KSD - BMW flat rates still exist. You were given an ESTIMATE !.

...

Anything that you are going to get over the phone is just a rough ESTIMATE. The shop needs an opporunity to look at the car - before they can firm anything up. And as I mentioned before - when you are quoting a specific job on the phone the writer knows that you are no going to bite. As you are only shopping price.

So get over the consipiracy theory. The BMW KSD exists and dealers do use it. If I had a copy here I would post it and let you play with it - its a ****ed up program.

D.-

All the guys I spoke with on the phone told me they had that program right in front of them and were quoting from it. The numbers I was given were emphatically not estimates, but quotes. I agree that there are other variables in repairing a car, but there should not be any variance in what different people read out of a book.

The BMW service rep confirmed this. They charge what's in the book, regardless of other factors. The book rate already takes incidental and unexpected tasks into account. What you descibe may be normal in the industry, but not at BMW, according to that service rep.

If you're right, then she's a liar. That's what I'm upset about.

I'm a reasonable and intelligent person. I know a reasonable estimate from an extortion attempt. That's why I walked when she gave me the $650 quote. I accept that that's just the way it is and there's nothing I can do about it, but give me some credit and concede that it's wrong rather than suggesting it's all down to my inability to grasp the concept of an estimate.

I'm getting a lot of flack here seemingly for saying things I never said. It's simple:

1. The service rep at BMW claims that all dealers charge identical prices for the same job.

2. My research condraticted her statement, suggesting some sort of wrongdoing or incompetence on her part.

That's all I ever suggested. I don't know why it makes you feel better to blame it on me. My 1-2 argument above is pretty straightforward. I don't see how you can argue with it.

Man, I'm really aggravated by some of the posts here. I feel like I'm getting a lot of undeserved disrepect and attitude for sticking my neck out and investing my own time on behalf of all BMW owners. Many of you basically insist that there must be something wrong with me. I guess it's easier for you to write me off as some sort of retard or naive child rather that than admit I may have a point. Don't know why, but it bugs me.

[Jon K]

I work at Jaguar in Willow Grove, PA. I will attest that the service writers there use JAGUAR numbers. They do not "estimate" or anything. However, if you call over the phone saying "i want this installed, i have the part, how much?" they may throw a ballpark number out there because 1) they don't get money on your part 2) they don't know the condtion/quality of the part 3) they don't know what condition the surrounding to-be-worked-on parts are in. You would not believe how many people call in saying they need "brake pads" yet the car comes in with rotors with 1/8" lips on them. What's worse: Getting a $120 quote for just "pads" or beng told you need another $300 in labor for rotors as well?

Another for instance:

Customer brings car in with tires to be mounted and balanced. Turns out he needs brakes. We didn't see the car before giving a quote. It'd be a lot cheaper to do the brakes and tires at once since the wheels will be off. We all know wheels are easy to take off with a gun and lift, but none the less the book says x amount of time for wheels to come off. So now he's frustrated that we mounted tires and he will have to come back for brakes later to pass inspection, while he could have knocked both out at the same time.

[willobmw]

BMW always says that the dealer sets the final price. If you go to different dealers, the parts prices will be different too. Thank BMWNA for that.
Willobmw

[RobPatt]

Quote:
"1. The service rep at BMW claims that all dealers charge identical prices for the same job.

2. My research condraticted her statement, suggesting some sort of wrongdoing or incompetence on her part."

You're right at #2 and thanks for the research. You and I know more about our E34s than the girl who gave you the quote. The lesson learned for me is do it yourself and spend the money saved on labor for more parts. Just fact of life if you want to run a nice E34 on a reasonable budget. Your research supports this. We're in to drive a nice car for minimal unnecessary expense, they're out to maximize profits on the lastest models in all their glory and complexity. For 17 max year old cars now, I do think our problems are pretty simple and there's no way I would pay maint costs on a new bimmer... (thus again, we appreciate what we have in the E34).
Cheers,
Rob.

[Gayle]

I get it Jay. You were told "They charge what's in the book, regardless of other factors." There should not be any variance if there is one book and no other factors are involved. And no you are not stupid, just pissed. And I appreciate your research. And I appreciate Bill R.'s report of his sisters construction.

[Jon K]

I get it Jay. You were told "They charge what's in the book, regardless of other factors." There should not be any variance if there is one book and no other factors are involved. And no you are not stupid, just pissed. And I appreciate your research. And I appreciate Bill R.'s report of his sisters construction.


There's a huge difference between calling dealerships and getting a quote versus driving the car through the service department and getting an RO written. Many dealers (ous, scecifically), differs customers by doing high phone quotes. the reason? Because half the cars that come in for rotors/pads/tires need one or more of those items in addition, and if the person is a huge stickler on the inital cost, there is a good chance they're not going to be open to additional costs. This is not to say I agree with dealer prices, but it's not accurate to call, you should go drive your car into 5 dealerships and get quotes that way - if you are really that interested.

[dacoyote]

... naive child rather that than admit I may have a point. Don't know why, but it bugs me.

If you really though they really would all quote the same.. then naive yes... weclome to getting old... you learn stuff... glad you learned it the easy way

You do have a point... my issue with the entire thread is I though we had already hashed this out... not if the lady at BMW is a tard (she is)

[SRR2]

investing my own time on behalf of all BMW owners.

This may be part of the problem. Most of us already know that a) different dealers charge different prices, b) NO ONE likes a customer walking in off the street with unknown parts in hand, c) "b" goes double for an old car that may present unkown difficulties that are unanticipated by the flat rate standards, d) no quote over the phone to a stranger is going to be the best possible, and e) the best way to get good, fairly-priced service is to develop a long-term relationship with your dealer/indie/whatever and be willing to pay a fair price for quality work.

[ra_pro]

You sound and think like a young dude, I know since I was young once too, long time ago. You operate on a theoretical level (school level) whereas you will learn or the life will teach you to operate on a practical level.

Here is what I mean. Based on your estimates it would seem Mississauga BMW is the most reasonable. But's that's in theory only, not in practical experience. I live 10 minutes from them and was forced to use their service once to reset my key (only the dealer can do that). I was told to bring the car in at 7:30AM when they open and it would take no more than 1/2 an hour. So I am in as suggested at 7:30AM and then watch in amazement as a 15 minute job turns into 2.5 hour job. The technician drives in the car opens the hood and then disappears somewhere for over an hour. Once the car is done it sits on the lot for another half hour before the stupid moron at the counter tells me it will be another 30 minutes to wash my car (courtesy of the stealer). That's when I lose it; tell him to **** himself, his dealership his service and everything else I can think of, I don't need his car wash I need to get to work.

In the end I paid an hour's worth of labor, by the book I am sure, for a 15 minute job, that took 2.5 hours. Welcome to the real world.

What's amazing is that they let customers watch how they "perform" the service because they have waiting room with a view into the shop. So one can actually see exsactly how much time it takes whatever they do.

[mikell]

Budds' BMW
Wiper rod: 3.0 hours
Turn signal lenses: 1.0 hours
Brake switch: 2.0 hours



2 HOURS for a brake switch? Gimme a break [brake]!
Just find an indy shop and establish a relationship you feel you can trust, then stick with your new pal. There is no substitute for knowing the guy who takes care of your car [same thing goes for your health] gives a damn, and knows what he/she is doing. If they trust you, then they'll play with you some, too. Give some, get some.
Sometimes it's just too expensive to do the cheapest thing.
Good luck.
Mike

[emw525E34]

Jay, i think the book rate are just "reference Work Units" and the dealer adjusts it up or down based on how often they have done a particular repair.

When I got my touring trunk-lid shocks replaced, they quoted BELOW the book rate. But said they have never done it before and will not charge more than quoted. They did a fine job but broke my rear wiper which they replaced after 2 weeks. This dealer was upfront. Another dealer nearer to my house was a rip-off and had idiot mechanics!.

[Ausmpower]

blah blah

[Ausmpower]

...

[Ausmpower]

blah blah

[rickm]

I'm surprised this hasn't made CNN! Reuters! MSNBC! :P

There are a lot of shops here who charge by the book. Some of those will charge up to the book rate and will charge you the actual cost when it's all said and done and others won't. There are also a lot of shops that will give you a rough quote and if they're over, they're short and you pay the extra. My repair guy will give an estimate over the phone but won't give you a concrete price unless his guys are able to see the car.

There are repair guides out there that list how long a task should take, the Dodge dealer I used to go to had one. When I was working for Dominion Resources (Virgina Power) we had a construction guide (several, actually) that listed times for a mid level person to do a given task. These were rough estimates, it might take 30 minutes to hang a section of conduit but if something is in the way all bets are off.

It's not an injustice or inequality, it's the way things are. They're a service business. Take your computer to me to get a HD installed, I'll have you in and out in 15 minutes. Take it to another place and they might charge you an hour.

This is why it pays to shop and you should always get multiple quotes.

[DanDombrowski]

Jay, I completely understand your complaint, and I honestly feel there's no need to argue it. If they're all using the same book, they should all come up with the same answer, and they don't.

Slightly aside, but slightly to the point, I've been to places that claim I need to change the timing belt on my old Volvo, because if it brakes, it will ruin the motor. When I ask them where they determined that the engine is an interference engine (which, BTW, it isn't), they claim its from some heavenly shop manual that all shops use. This of course was at an independant shop, and therefore not held to BMW or other corporate standards, but my point is that they may have the book, it just sits unused on a dusty shelf while they pull numbers out of their ass.

One other scenario I thought may be contributing to this is that the shop is possibly quoting more sub-jobs than another shop. For example, when you say you need the corner lamps replaced, mabye one shop was able to find a labor estimate for the corner lamps and quoted you for that, while the next shop just assumed that the headlights had to be pulled to install them. They're both quoting from the book, just slightly different jobs to accomplish the same task.

I want to say thanks for taking the time to document your research.

[HDhandyman]

WTF, this thread's been dead since 2005. Why?

[Espen]

WTF, this thread's been dead since 2005. Why?

Blame Ausm