Ah...the joys of wideband tuning!

[Jeff N.]

Finally...finally...the MAF curve is just about right. The car is really running quite well. A/F Mixture ranges from ~15:1 to 12:1 depending on load and acceleration. Light throttle feels just about right between 15 and 14 to one. Stuff it and the mixture richens to between 13 and 12 to one.

Car's running open loop as well. Really the only way you can tune anything otherwise the mixture jumps around quite a bit; hard to tell where the map is vs. the ranging corrections of the ECU. I'm thinking I may just run the car open loop all the time.

NEVER could have got this setup without the Innovate LC-1 wideband. It's really a great tool. Of course, there is some labor of love here. I think I've gone thru about 25 interations of the MAF curve to get to this point. Still have some more work to do but it's going to be some pretty fine tuning vs. the more or less gross adjustments that I've been making up to now.

Another interesting observation is how FAR the mixture has to be off to trip the CE light. In closed loop, the car will work very hard to correct the mixture even when it's grossly off. This of course leads one to believe that they have the MAF setup correctly when it's not near where you need it to be.

Next tweeks will be some added fine tuning in the 2700 to 3200 RPM range. With the stepped down diffy, the car runs about 2700 RPM at 70mph. Interestingly, the chip wants to push the mixture towards 13:1 or richer at this point. Or...I may just have a slight fat spot in the curve here. Anyways, I think I can get a little better highway MPG if I can move the mixture just a tad leaner here.

Also, I have some more work to do in the 4500 + RPM areas. While I'm in the ballpark here, I'd like to do some more checking with the WOT setting on vs. off. My observation is that with the WOT setting on, the car runs rich (12:1+). However, with the WOT off, I'm not sure that I'm sending the maximum voltage to the ECU via the MAF. I'll have to setup some trace logs and watch the voltmeter to see what's really happening here.

With all this, car still drives like a car with a hot cam. Don't have the really grunt down low that you might like for a city car. A cam change to a shorter duration cam is in order (and in the works). On the highway, the car pulls damn solid. 3rd and 4th gear acceleration on cam is impressive; car is pulling very strong at 80MPH in 3rd gear and keeps right on going when you hit 4th.

Anyways...lots of fun and I'm learning quite a bit. If anyone ends up with a Pro-M MAF setup, contact me and I'll share my curve settings. They should get a stock motor pretty close I would think.

Cheers!

Jeff

[Barry]

Jeff,Have been using INNOVATE MOTORSPORT`S LC-1 for over a year now..
Excellent bit of equiptment..So much so,that Ive purchased the whole shebang-The case,datalogger,multichannel logger,gauge....all of it..
As you say,makes life easier..

Do you have something posted on your MAF setup?You running old Motronic here??
Sorry,have not done a search on this yet..

[Martin in Bellevue]

You could try setting the analog1 output to a very narrow range, like the 2nd view provided, for tuning in 'open loop'.

http://www.bimmer.info/bmw/martin/analog1out.jpg

Innovate has suggested afr ratio's for street-driven 4 stroke motors:
14.6 : 1 is dangerlously lean under power
14.2 : 1 is lean, max power
13.5 : 1 is max power (suggested for blown motors?) the range I've targeted
13.2 : 1 too rich for un-blown motors

[Jeff N.]

The MAF unit replaces the stock AFM - It used to be sold by Pro-M but the company has changed it's name and site; maybe Martin has the link stored? Works with the stock ECU.

Thanks for the graph Martin, maybe I'll try that later today. Still have some more tweeking work to do of course.




You could try setting the analog1 output to a very narrow range, like the 2nd view provided, for tuning in 'open loop'.

http://www.bimmer.info/bmw/martin/analog1out.jpg

Innovate has suggested afr ratio's for street-driven 4 stroke motors:
14.6 : 1 is dangerlously lean under power
14.2 : 1 is lean, max power
13.5 : 1 is max power (suggested for blown motors?) the range I've targeted
13.2 : 1 too rich for un-blown motors

[632 Regal]

why would you want to go shorter duration, is it a little over cammed even while revving up over 3500?

[Jeff N.]

...car's short of squirt in the 2500 to 3500 area - where you spend a lot of time in day to day driving. The current cam's about a 294 or so, going to a 284. Stock is about 268.



why would you want to go shorter duration, is it a little over cammed even while revving up over 3500?

[535ise]

Jeff, what revs do you get max power at with the 294 cam ? Be interesting to see how it compairs to my 284/280 Schrick ?

I've got this setting up to look forward to, i've bought an LC-1 to tune my stand alone ECU on my M30.

It's got a good map but i've made some minor(new air filter and Exhaust) changes to the engine since it was mapped so i want to see whats going on with the AFR's.

With my ECU and a lap top i can data log most of the engine parameters like revs/throttle angle/AFR's/etc so hope fully it wont be to hard to set the WOT settings, part throttle is going to be a lot more labour intensive compaired to WOT settings !

It would be nice to compair AFR results with you guys !

I read some where that 13:1 was the AFR to aim for max power but this conflicts with the info from Inovate ?

Is 14:1-14.5:1 a good tick over AFR for a warm engine ?

What AFR should i aim for on a cold engine at tick over ?

I'm not going to start tuning just yet as i'm going to be fitting a new mid section of my exhaust and i've got a twin 60mm TB (if it ever arrives) that i'm going to fit to the other side of my inlet manifold like the B10 Bi-turbo so theres no point starting tuning just yet.

Heres the TB, can't remember if i've posted about it on here or not ?

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/4379/e810qx.jpg

[632 Regal]

294 is a bit big for daily commute...where do they get these durations figures (ie: what lift) and what are the lifts for stock, 284 and 294? I would like to be a bit more knowledgeable in this area and see how these figures fit in with Detroit iron & cycle engines (if there even is a comparison at all).

edit: what are the lift & Dur figures at .050?

[Barry]

There is no specific afr at idle for a specific engine..Let me re phrase that-Every engine will idle at the afr where it is happy to do so.This might be rich or very lean mixtures..Give it what it wants and is happy with.
Same for cold start..Its got to be drivable from very cold..
Kepp increasing the cold start value untill its drivable,but be carefull..A seriously rich mixture will be very drivable-up to a piont,obviously-but not good for the engine-never mind your wallet..

If it were me doing the mapping,I would data map the std car with the std. management first..just to get a ballpark as to what mixtures are required..

From there I would look at getting it pretty much the same AND THEN..start playing with the modified map..

Ive done a few cars in my time,mostly using Haltech,Motec and Electromotive units..

[535ise]

Thanks for the info, very use full !

I haven't got a standard engine or should i say an engine thats got the same spec as mine that i can copy from but i know the map thats in there was done to a very high standard, i've just got to tweak it rather than totally re-work it i think ?

[Jeff N.]

I have some details the MM and the Schrick cam but as I'm sure you know, getting common measurements on cams is not something everyone publishes.

Anyone have the measurements on the stock 535i cam?

[Jeff N.]

Jeff, what revs do you get max power at with the 294 cam ? Be interesting to see how it compairs to my 284/280 Schrick ?

I'd like to compare too. My MM cam builds power starting around 3600 or so and is really coming on at about 4000 or so. Cam is set with 4 degrees advance. Off cam below 3600 is flat. When you step on the throttle you sort of have a "wait" effect as the car builds RPMs to get on-cam then it shoots off. Sort of like turbo lag if you will.

I'm looking to have the car get on-cam more around 3000 RPM or so. What do you see with your Schrick?


I've got this setting up to look forward to, i've bought an LC-1 to tune my stand alone ECU on my M30.


What standalone ECU are you running?

[535ise]

Mine is the same torque wise as before the cam was fitted up to about 3.5k where it starts picking up, 4k it's fully on cam and produces peak power at 6k.

This is an old RR graph when it was chipped before the Emerald stand alone ECU.

http://emeraldm3d.com/

http://img425.imageshack.us/img425/8876/carstatsresize8qf.gif

I think the limiting factor on my engine is the stock TB so i'm hoping i should gain some added punch with the twin 60mm TB ?

[535ise]

BTW the cam is is on the standard timing sproket, did you gain much by altering yours ?

[Anton CH.]

Jeff, are you running a standalone or are you tweaking the old bosch dme?

[Jeff N.]

Mine's a lot peaker than that with less upper RPM falloff.

Advancing the cam will drop the on-cam spot by a few hundred RPM.

Why do you think the throttle body is the limiting factor? Not many here have done any throttle body work so there's not much past experience to work from.

Jeff

[Jeff N.]

The MAF essential spoofs the vane air flow meter; the ECU has no clue that anything is different.

To tune it, there is a controller box where I can program in the output voltage (ie "air mass") of the maf for a given airflow. This allows me to richen/lean the mixture. Unfortunately, I have no control over the timing.

[Jon K]

I too use the LC-1 wideband controller. What are your guys AFR at idle? I am trying to troubleshoot an issue - if i start the car up, the LC-1 does its like 30 sec warm up, my AFRs read on the 16 - 17:1 area. But like 5 mins of running the car, it reports 14.7:1. This is when the motor is cold AS WELL as when the motor is 1/4 warmed maybe. I am thinking it's the sensor getting more accurate as the exhaust warms up. What are your experiences?

[Jeff N.]

I too use the LC-1 wideband controller. What are your guys AFR at idle?

Closed loop, the car settles in right at 14.7 to 1 or thereabouts. Open loop, my idle mixture depends on my MAF setting. I recall I need to drive just about 1v to the ECU at idle for the mixture to be correct.


I am trying to troubleshoot an issue - if i start the car up, the LC-1 does its like 30 sec warm up, my AFRs read on the 16 - 17:1 area.

Hmm..that would be very lean. How does the car run? Does it stumble? If it runs fine, you maybe having a similar issue that Martin and I observed when setting up my LC-1. We saw the LC-1 "invert" the ratio to the split second meter. It was wierd really - the car would be running rich - we knew it - but it was reporting lean.

We observed a strange thing with the LC-1. If you have it in program mode and connected to the PC, don't try to start the car until you have powered down the LC-1 for about 30 seconds or so. Otherwise, it's all hosed up - don't ask me why.

After a bit of mucking around and figuring things out, the meter reported correctly and no problems since.



But like 5 mins of running the car, it reports 14.7:1. This is when the motor is cold AS WELL as when the motor is 1/4 warmed maybe. I am thinking it's the sensor getting more accurate as the exhaust warms up. What are your experiences?

Wha? If the car's been running for 5 minutes, it's not cold anymore. I'm confused. Here's what mine does.

Engine temp is cold, car idles with mixture of about 13:1 or 12.5:1 or so. As the temp gauge moves up, the idle moves toward 14.7:1. By the time the gauge is halfway to normal temp, I think the car's idling at stoich.

Sounds to me like you may want to reset your sensor via the Innovate procedure and make sure you reset the LC-1 via a powerdown after going to to program (not trace) mode.

Curious...let us know how it turns out...

Jeff

[beetos]

Innovative wideband looks pretty good. I am on the fence at the moment between a Tech Edge unit and the innovative. Do you have it permanently mounted?

[Jon K]

Closed loop, the car settles in right at 14.7 to 1 or thereabouts. Open loop, my idle mixture depends on my MAF setting. I recall I need to drive just about 1v to the ECU at idle for the mixture to be correct.



Hmm..that would be very lean. How does the car run? Does it stumble? If it runs fine, you maybe having a similar issue that Martin and I observed when setting up my LC-1. We saw the LC-1 "invert" the ratio to the split second meter. It was wierd really - the car would be running rich - we knew it - but it was reporting lean.

We observed a strange thing with the LC-1. If you have it in program mode and connected to the PC, don't try to start the car until you have powered down the LC-1 for about 30 seconds or so. Otherwise, it's all hosed up - don't ask me why.

After a bit of mucking around and figuring things out, the meter reported correctly and no problems since.



Wha? If the car's been running for 5 minutes, it's not cold anymore. I'm confused. Here's what mine does.

Engine temp is cold, car idles with mixture of about 13:1 or 12.5:1 or so. As the temp gauge moves up, the idle moves toward 14.7:1. By the time the gauge is halfway to normal temp, I think the car's idling at stoich.

Sounds to me like you may want to reset your sensor via the Innovate procedure and make sure you reset the LC-1 via a powerdown after going to to program (not trace) mode.

Curious...let us know how it turns out...

Jeff

Jeff thanks for response. I am not sur emy unit took the original "free air calibration" at all. I went out on saturday morning thinking it might not be calibrated correctly. I let the car sit for over 18 hours so it was COLD and with the large open exhaust the gases escaped easily in that amount of time. I did a calibration and got 20.9% O2 which I believe is dead on. Restarted the car, it does what you said now. It starts around 12.5 - 13:1 @ COLD idle. About 1/4 warmed it started to play around at 14.5 - 14.7... good stuff. I was a little confused as to why the reading started high and then came down, not sure but it was apparently not calibrated correctly.

[Martin in Bellevue]

My car, with the mildly larger 21lb injectors (&mildly duller 1.3motronic), sees a richer cold start. It can show under 12:1 afr, but runs fine in the warm-up. If the map curve is leaned at all from the present settings, it later affects the warm running. Eventually, I may add a coolant temperature sensor as an input to the psc-001 to tame the cold running, but it isn't noticeable unless staring at the afr readings in the mornings.

[Jon K]

If you need help doing the coolant sensor I just installed a GM closed element coolant sensor in my TB cooling route that I bypassed... should work real well. I am about to go outside and find out what the readings are like.