AFM/MAF question for MarkD

[gale]

Mark,

Robin & I were discussing mods tonite and wondering what it would take for someone such as yourself, to adapt a suitable hot-wire anemometer-type air flow meter to an m30. The objective is to replace the restrictive BMW one that's on our cars now. We're thinking someone with your talent & experience & shop equipment could piece one together with off the shelf components and burn a custom eprom. We're thinking there'd be a significant market for a turnkey "kit" or a chip and a parts list of what items we'd buy on our own to make it work. Is this a do-able task or would it require more than just a chip and a hot-wire sensor & a few wires & connector adapters?

Thanks,

[Kalevera]

Don, read up on what Martin's doing with the split second MAF setup if you're not already familiar with it. Admittedly, there's an element of programming, that being map construction, that must be assumed by the end user. But it seems like the results are worth it. It's definitely been a consideration of mine, as it would only require minor modification to the engine bay and the addition of an IAT sensor.

best, whit

[Jeff N.]

...and I'm not sure what the market would be for a third. Bruno tried to market one of the current options and I think I have the only copy he sold. :(

Whit's right - you can replace the AFM with the Split Second PSC-somethingorother unit. This unit can either format a MAF signal to the ECU or - as Martin is doing - replace the air flow sensor altogether with a MAP sensor. He's got a fuel table that little pretty darn close for as a starting point however he has done enough mods that you'd need to tweek it to get it totally right. His major mod that would effect his table is his swapout of the stock 19lb injectors for 21lb injectors. He also has a 284 reground cam and headers similar to yours. I would suspect the cam in particular might effect the manifold pressure characteristics such that the map would be off vs. a stock cam.

Or - you can run what I have. Available from the rebranded Pro Flow systems (Martin has their new link somewhere), it's a ford mass air flow meter with a black box that allows you to condition the voltage signal to the ECU. Basically a translation unit that takes voltage in from the MAF and allows you to map it to a voltage out for the ECU.

The splitsecond will do what mine will OR run as a MAP unit. And it's cheaper. So, I think that's the direction you want to go if you do jump in.

To correctly setup either unit, you need to have a wideband O2 sensor. Both Martin and I are running the Innovate LC-1 unit. Tuning without this tool was a fools effort - there is just no way you can get the mixture correct without without it. Oh, you can get the car to run and it may even run OK, but without the wideband that's all you ever get. Both of our cars are running *much* better now that we've got the mixtures close via the wideband.

Chip wise, we're both running the conforti chip. No reason other than we had both purchased this chip before Mark had his out. I'd recommend his if you have a choice.

It's been fun to learn how to setup these systems. I've learned a lot along the way and I think the car is better for it. However, you should be prepped to get the right tools and be willing to invest some time.

I think you should go for it...we'll help you out whichever way you go. We've been the board pioneer's here - it's time for some others to jump on in...

[632 Regal]

or a simple 530 auto chip. :D

[Martin in Bellevue]

Don, read up on what Martin's doing with the split second MAF setup if you're not already familiar with it. Admittedly, there's an element of programming, that being map construction, that must be assumed by the end user. But it seems like the results are worth it. It's definitely been a consideration of mine, as it would only require minor modification to the engine bay and the addition of an IAT sensor.

best, whit
I can post the map curve I have in the morning. It is pretty great, & might work well for other m30's. The LC-1 wideband kit has been a huge help in getting things tuned.
If my eibach springs don't show up this weekend, I can draft a wiring harness & tips to implement the psc-001 signal box with integrated map sensor.

[Robin-535im]

Doesn't the 540 use a MAF? We were wondering if there was a BMW part that would work with some wiring and ECU changes. 540 should have bigger flow area and not be a restrictive orafice like a later 525 / 530 might be.

Anyone know if the 540 has a MAF and how much it costs?

[Jeff N.]

..how does this tie to the stable of M30s...?


Doesn't the 540 use a MAF? We were wondering if there was a BMW part that would work with some wiring and ECU changes. 540 should have bigger flow area and not be a restrictive orafice like a later 525 / 530 might be.

Anyone know if the 540 has a MAF and how much it costs?

[Robin-535im]

..how does this tie to the stable of M30s...?
Just the same old car... but the thought is perhaps BMW already has a MAF in it's product line that is similar enough that minimal changes would be required to mate it up to the ECU.

E.g., if they already have one for the 540 and the signal out can be read by the same part of the ECU that reads the current AFM, maybe Mark can re-program that part of the voltage conversion table to make the car use the MAF signal instead of the AFM.

So the car owner would buy a 540 MAF, Mark could design new ECU chips, and it would all (Magically?) work together.

It would require the MAF to emit a voltage signal proportional to the air flow, and maybe the MAF sends out a raw signal.. have to check bentley's maybe...

[MarkD]

Mark,

Robin & I were discussing mods tonite and wondering what it would take for someone such as yourself, to adapt a suitable hot-wire anemometer-type air flow meter to an m30. The objective is to replace the restrictive BMW one that's on our cars now. We're thinking someone with your talent & experience & shop equipment could piece one together with off the shelf components and burn a custom eprom. We're thinking there'd be a significant market for a turnkey "kit" or a chip and a parts list of what items we'd buy on our own to make it work. Is this a do-able task or would it require more than just a chip and a hot-wire sensor & a few wires & connector adapters?

Thanks,

Hello Gale,

I've wanted to make a MAF conversion kit which only required a MAF and a special chip for quite some time. So far, I have decided to hold off on it for a few reasons:

- I don't think there is a big enough market for it
- chips sales in general are quite slow. (I sold less than 10 chips to people from bimmer.info in 2005)
- it seems many people are going for the eBay chip route.

I still have plans to make a MAF or MAP conversion but I will be developing an anti-copy board for it first.

Mark

[MarkD]

or a simple 530 auto chip. :D

I'll get to that this year. There are no 530's here to even develop with or it would have been done long ago.

MarkD

[632 Regal]

I know Mark...just kiddin ya ;)
I'll get to that this year. There are no 530's here to even develop with or it would have been done long ago.

MarkD

[gale]

Hello Gale, I've wanted to make a MAF conversion kit which only required a MAF and a special chip for quite some time. . . Mark

Thanks Mark, It'll be worth the wait. Didn't realize EAT chip sales had slowed down. Is the market saturated?

Regards,

Don

[MarkD]

Thanks Mark, It'll be worth the wait. Didn't realize EAT chip sales had slowed down. Is the market saturated?

Regards,

Don

I don't think the market for chips is saturated, but the M30 owners from bimmer.info aren't aren't buying at anywhere the rate they used to. It appears that even though there are many new members here, they are interested in the eBay chips. Most of my chip sales are for M20 and M50 chips.


Mark

[genphreak]

Just the same old car... but the thought is perhaps BMW already has a MAF in it's product line that is similar enough that minimal changes would be required to mate it up to the ECU.

E.g., if they already have one for the 540 and the signal out can be read by the same part of the ECU that reads the current AFM, maybe Mark can re-program that part of the voltage conversion table to make the car use the MAF signal instead of the AFM.

So the car owner would buy a 540 MAF, Mark could design new ECU chips, and it would all (Magically?) work together.

It would require the MAF to emit a voltage signal proportional to the air flow, and maybe the MAF sends out a raw signal.. have to check bentley's maybe...I was hoping this before I looked into it in more detail, adn was not the first. The ECUs are completely different; internals (and software) are proprietary (not documented other than by circuit diagrams, so its little help. The connectors are different along with the rest of the sensory architecture as the engines were built for later emissions standards as well as to support differing fuels.

Now that doesn't make it impossible, just that its better to use somehting like MegaSquirt (w MAP sensor) or a Split Second PSC-001 and MAP sensor.

[Jeff N.]

...who knows what you're getting. Stupid is as stupid does.



I don't think the market for chips is saturated, but the M30 owners from bimmer.info aren't aren't buying at anywhere the rate they used to. It appears that even though there are many new members here, they are interested in the eBay chips. Most of my chip sales are for M20 and M50 chips.


Mark

[genphreak]

I don't think the market for chips is saturated, but the M30 owners from bimmer.info aren't aren't buying at anywhere the rate they used to. It appears that even though there are many new members here, they are interested in the eBay chips. Most of my chip sales are for M20 and M50 chips. Mark I'd say it's economics.

- If we are buying those eBay chips, its because they are cheap so its an easier decision at the time.
- If we aren't buying them (or the EAT) then it's because your chips are too expensive or we don't know enough about them. Either way, a $35 decision is easy. A $200 one is an informed and budgeted decision and requires marketing.

However I think we all know how good the EAT chip is by now.

I personally have resisted as I am not keen to be forced to buy premium (95 RON) fuel.

In Australia if your car takes standard ULP you buy fuel a minimum 10% cheaper, so even if my M30 misses out on more power, I still save on running costs (as I seldom ever go WOT), and can buy fuel anywhere. Whether I can save fuel with the new chip I cannot suitably ascertain, but I would have bought one earlier despite this. The problem for me is I now need to replace my AFM anyway so my money is being saved for that- instead of a new chip.

However the reason sales might not be so strong to this segment is clear- ie that there are less people spending enough upgrade money on M30-powered cars, (so its not surprising that the richer ones (ie that do spend money) are naturally buying for the M20 and M50/M52 cars). Consider your average student pauper with an m30 powered 535- USD200 will buy a lot of fuel for them... or a new set of tyres a tune up, head gasket, radiator, A/C fix... these are the things they are battling. They simply have more pressing wear items to buy than a replacement ECU chip. If instead they managed to spend enough to get a '93 525 in the first place they would not have so many replacement items coming up and would be more likely to buy your upgrade mod.

To get constructively critical, (if I may be so bold) perhaps you could prevent sales on certain models tailing off by reducing these chip prices to meet your market's spending disposable spending power. Also, fixing your website up (at least so your target market can buy on the spot) would help a lot too. Whatever you can do to sell more chips is a good thing as you would extend the life of these cars and perhaps save some valuable fuel.

After all, we all know a custom dyno-program costs more, so once there are a heap of chips sold and development costs are covered, profits are simply a matter of smart marketing.

However I am sure you do the numbers on this more carefully than I, so perhaps I am wrong; just ideas that came to mind 'sall. Best, Nick

[Jeff N.]

Here's what those bastards do. They get a chip reader, read a chip from someone like Mark D. or Jim C, and burn copies and sell them on the bay.

Mark, Jim and others worked hard to come up with their chips. Pisses me off to see others rip off their work and sell it as their own on the 'bay. You think this is justification for *you* to ask *them* to sell their hard work for less? A chip is easily *the best upgrade dollar for dollar you can do* - period. And you want to whine about $100? Sorry...no sympathy here. Go buy a ford or something if you want cheap, high volume parts.

You need to re-think your logic Nick.

[motorman]

Quite strong words Jeff, but I'm with you all the way, why should they benefit from someone elses hard work, I'd rather spend the extra $ and know what I'm getting and have confidence in it (which I did anyway, I've got a JC chip and I'm happy with it), I'll always buy quality for my car, you can't beat the performance that quality parts provide.
Cheers Mick

[genphreak]

Quite strong words Jeff, but I'm with you all the way, why should they benefit from someone elses hard work, I'd rather spend the extra $ and know what I'm getting and have confidence in it (which I did anyway, I've got a JC chip and I'm happy with it), I'll always buy quality for my car, you can't beat the performance that quality parts provide.
Cheers MickIt's OK Mick, I expected it. You guys are right- I fully sympathise and I do not mean to suggest they (EAT chips) are worth anything less than the **very cheap fee** Mark D and others charge for the great work they have done on their dynos.

What we have to remember is that not all of these eBay sellers are simply theives, they just sell ******** or don't care at all.

Ie buying one you can get good (stolen), stock (********ted) or worse (ripped off)...

All I am trying to get accross is, to sell more of these older chips to a price sensitive segment one strategy is to reduce the prices (I do not mean accross the board), as that is where theives get a grip on buyers (and once they get a grip, they do it again and again, spreading like virii), so its in one's best interests to stop that happening too. Why do you think Windows XP costs less than $100 instead of $200? MS don't tempt fate with software in price sensitive segments, it is barely competition (Linux desktop OS, OS/2, and so on, none of them sell well, and Mac is barely starting yet) they know very well that selling expensive software to home users is hard without breaking privacy laws to scare enough people into it. This is somehting that the RIAA are yet to comprehend :), they simply couldn't make the leap from selling a plastic box for $10 to selling data in smaller bits for $1 each, I guess they were doing so well the strategy was to let it become a threat worth solving first (given the level of influence they are able to bring to bare).

I just see the same thing happening in our little Bimmer micromarkets... anyway, like I said, I won't be buying one, it's only a marketing idea.

[motorman]

I see what you mean too, when windows XP first came out, we all paid a premium price for it:( , but as time goes by the price drops and when the replacement program comes out, you can get XP for a song:) , so maybe there's a lesson in that for us all and maybe for the lads who design and produce chips, ie, price reduction to compete = greater sales and maybe improved profit and we're all happy:D

[genphreak]

I see what you mean too, when windows XP first came out, we all paid a premium price for it:( , but as time goes by the price drops and when the replacement program comes out, you can get XP for a song:) , so maybe there's a lesson in that for us all and maybe for the lads who design and produce chips, ie, price reduction to compete = greater sales and maybe improved profit and we're all happy:DI just know that as long as I've had my 535 there has always been more urgent items to buy (ie one's that might stop it driving) and that's the only reason I never mailed MarkD...

[motorman]

Saved up money myself for some good parts, then came a case of really bad diff whine, bought 2nd hand slippery, bought all the parts to rebuild it, did that, put it in, works great, guess what? Still saving up money for some good parts! The parts I WANT, not what I'm FORCED to buy, but, I'll eventually get there. I know exactly how you feel.
Cheers Mick

[emw525E34]

Agree with you Jeff. That eBay sh*t could well be illegal and he seller sometimes plea innocent!. Doh!.

Piracy stifles innovation and we have seen lots of it in many industries. The result, a great guy like MarkD had to resort to complex (and potentially costly) hardware based crypto just to roll out a product which is already priced reasonably. I think many people are reluctant to purchase due to their fear of installing one themselves. This is a pity as these cars aren't really technologically sophisticated, by any standard.

[SRR2]

The obvious problem with chip sales is that they're so easily copied when they're just an eprom. The ebay scammer buys one of each from EAT or Conforti or whomever, buys a $100 eprom programmer, and a few tubes of the appropriate OTP chips for $2 each. It's not hard to break even when you're making circa $25 per sale and your entire 'development' cost is $200-$350. The profit picture is a lot better for developers like Mark when they're producing something like the "Shark Injector" which is set up for one-time use.