Standalone ECU is done...

[Jon K]

I can get new pictures but nothing really to show since last time. I finally got the RPM signal to work. The BMW Bosch crank wheel is a 60 -2 wheel so i needed to install the MSnS-E firmware to enable crank wheel decoder to support this wheel else i'd need to retrofit a FORD EDIS 36-1 wheel which would be so hard.

So anyway, here's what is working:

MAP (manifold air pressure) sensor
Coolant Temperature Sensor (GM closed element)
Intake Air Temperature Sensor (GM open element)
Throttle Position Sensor
VR Sensor (RPM input)
Innovate Wideband O2 Sensor

I have datalogged a quick somewhat spirited drive. If you wish to view it you can install the datalog viewer by right clicking and saving link as and then running this installation file:http://www.ideasandsolutions.biz/MSGraph/download/MegaLogViewer-Setup-v1.3b.msi

Once you have that you can download my Microsoft XLS spreadsheet file at:
http://www.orbitalinternet.net/data.xls
and save it to the desktop as whatever.xls

Then open the viewer application, load the XLS file. Go to options click RPM x100, click Calculation Fields and set both Wideband O2 to Innovate 0 - 5, then hit play :)

[genphreak]

I can get new pictures but nothing really to show since last time. I finally got the RPM signal to work. The BMW Bosch crank wheel is a 60 -2 wheel so i needed to install the MSnS-E firmware to enable crank wheel decoder to support this wheel else i'd need to retrofit a FORD EDIS 36-1 wheel which would be so hard.

So anyway, here's what is working:

MAP (manifold air pressure) sensor
Coolant Temperature Sensor (GM closed element)
Intake Air Temperature Sensor (GM open element)
Throttle Position Sensor
VR Sensor (RPM input)
Innovate Wideband O2 Sensor

I have datalogged a quick somewhat spirited drive. If you wish to view it you can install the datalog viewer by right clicking and saving link as and then running this installation file:http://www.ideasandsolutions.biz/MSGraph/download/MegaLogViewer-Setup-v1.3b.msi

Once you have that you can download my Microsoft XLS spreadsheet file at:

and save it to the desktop as whatever.xls

Then open the viewer application, load the XLS file. Go to options click RPM x100, click Calculation Fields and set both Wideband O2 to Innovate 0 - 5, then hit play :)Excellent work Jon, who else has this working with the 62-2 timing wheel? That pretty much means MS is a goer for the M30- so I'm keen as beans to do the same! I guess once someone has their M30 documented a lot of other M30-ists will be into it. Am hoping put my order together shortly and begin, would love to know more info from you once I get to it. Perhaps I should signup over at BlownEuroz!

[Jon K]

M30 is exponentially easier than the M50 and they are documented. Go to www.msefi.com and then go to success stories and look under bmw. Most if not all the motors that have been done are M30's. Because the M30 has a distributor, it makes it so much easier for ignition control. I will be scrapping the coil on plug setup and switch to a 6 coil tower coil to each cylinder. But yeah, 60-2 is pretty common bosch wheel on volkswagens etc. The hardest part was just finding the VR sensor, finding out it was in fact a VR sensor, and then running the wiring. I also ended up installing GM temperature sensors because I couldn't figure out the bias resistor switching on the stock ecu that would allow me to utilize the stock sensors.

[bahnstormer]

dont see any on there?
lotta 2002 and E30s tho....

http://www.msefi.com/viewforum.php?f=56



btw is your obc gonna report mpg correctly with that?

[genphreak]

dont see any on there?
lotta 2002 and E30s tho.... http://www.msefi.com/viewforum.php?f=56 btw is your obc gonna report mpg correctly with that?That s what I have found in the past- never a late M30 (M30B35) as they are Motronic 1.3 so good enough people don't retrofit, nothing like L or K-jetronic to motivate you into an MS changeover. The T-62 software update is relatively new (I was not previously aware of this) and I am yet to find out where the knock sensors will go on the M30. I knew the VR was hard too, so have to work that one out: Jon can you enlighten us here- what VR is needed ? No need to answer if you are writing this all up tho, these are just the questions I am wondering about. I' not very advanced on it yet, I still think I will be connecting my MS in parallel to the Motronic for the time-being, but still need to sit down and go through it all to lay down a real install plan.

[Jon K]

That s what I have found in the past- never a late M30 (M30B35) as they are Motronic 1.3 so good enough people don't retrofit, nothing like L or K-jetronic to motivate you into an MS changeover. The T-62 software update is relatively new (I was not previously aware of this) and I am yet to find out where the knock sensors will go on the M30. I knew the VR was hard too, so have to work that one out: Jon can you enlighten us here- what VR is needed ? No need to answer if you are writing this all up tho, these are just the questions I am wondering about. I' not very advanced on it yet, I still think I will be connecting my MS in parallel to the Motronic for the time-being, but still need to sit down and go through it all to lay down a real install plan.


Well the VR issue is conditional - if you plan on only using MS for fuel control then no it's not totally necessary. However, if you plan to use spark control or full standalone, then yes it's required.
Why:

If you are using the MS for just fuel (but if using it on an M50 or any motor with coil on plug firing, ignore all of this) on an M30 you do not necessarily need a VR input to the MS. The VR is used to pull an RPM signal. In fact, it doesn't "pull" a signal, it flat our translates one from the crank position sensor (which is a VR sensor). However, on M30 motors, because of a single coil, you can usually just use the coil as the output for RPM to the MS. But, if you go full standalone, your only option will be a VR sensor. Or, alternately you could installa hall sensor (bad idea) or an optical sensor (worse idea).

Because your Motronic DME is not needed to get an RPM (because the AC signal comes direct from the crank to the Motronic) because you are "tapping" but intercepting the VR signal which is input for the Motronic and therefore pre-ecu, you can leave the motronic in place to handle your speedometer and tachometer with very few other things hooked up. I am not sure if you'd get a CEL or not but you could just leave the inputs (O2, VR, speed, temp inputs, etc) hooked up and cut all the outputs (injectors, coil control, etc) so that the Motronic thinks its doing a real good job but in reality the MS is running the show. The MS also has tach output so you could run a signal to your tachometer but I am not sure how that works yet.

[beetos]

Great work Jon,
By the way, why do you think hall and optical sensors are worse than reluctors? A lot of the top standalones run hall, or use reluctor adaptors to convert AC to hall.

[bjl4776]

It is very hard to mount a Hall or Optical Sensor in a safe place. When you mount either one it has to be in a clean dry place, and the optical without light. It is alot easier to mount a VR on a crank pulley then try to enclose a Hall or optical sensor. The only time youll see any of those two are in distributors, or on the outside of the valve cover attached to the camshaft. It is alot easier to just use the stock 60-2 wheel and VR sensor. But as Jon said, M30 would be alot easier because of the distributor to set up full standalone. If you have an M50 or M60 you need to add a driver to the PCB for each coil you wish to fire. Thats why it Jon is going to go with a wasted spark setup, so he only has to install 3 drivers instead of 6, and have more room for other options such as boost control, launch control, and all the cool things. On the M30 you only need one driver since there is only one coil and a distributor. I plan on running the same setup as Jon, but i took off the stock ECU and wiring harness completely, so I'll definately be trying to find a way to get Tach and Speedo to work without the signal from an ECU.

[Jon K]

It is very hard to mount a Hall or Optical Sensor in a safe place. When you mount either one it has to be in a clean dry place, and the optical without light. It is alot easier to mount a VR on a crank pulley then try to enclose a Hall or optical sensor. The only time youll see any of those two are in distributors, or on the outside of the valve cover attached to the camshaft. It is alot easier to just use the stock 60-2 wheel and VR sensor. But as Jon said, M30 would be alot easier because of the distributor to set up full standalone. If you have an M50 or M60 you need to add a driver to the PCB for each coil you wish to fire. Thats why it Jon is going to go with a wasted spark setup, so he only has to install 3 drivers instead of 6, and have more room for other options such as boost control, launch control, and all the cool things. On the M30 you only need one driver since there is only one coil and a distributor. I plan on running the same setup as Jon, but i took off the stock ECU and wiring harness completely, so I'll definately be trying to find a way to get Tach and Speedo to work without the signal from an ECU.


I am pretty sure that the speedometer reading comes straight from the speed sensor in the differential and so that shouldn't be an issue. The tach signal can be output from the MS ECU when running the MSnS-E firmware. This link exp lains that in some detail (http://megasquirt.sourceforge.net/extra/tachopin.html). Otherwise it should be a simple setup regarding a 6 tower coil and some drivers.

[beetos]

It is very hard to mount a Hall or Optical Sensor in a safe place. When you mount either one it has to be in a clean dry place, and the optical without light. It is alot easier to mount a VR on a crank pulley then try to enclose a Hall or optical sensor. The only time youll see any of those two are in distributors, or on the outside of the valve cover attached to the camshaft. It is alot easier to just use the stock 60-2 wheel and VR sensor. But as Jon said, M30 would be alot easier because of the distributor to set up full standalone. If you have an M50 or M60 you need to add a driver to the PCB for each coil you wish to fire. Thats why it Jon is going to go with a wasted spark setup, so he only has to install 3 drivers instead of 6, and have more room for other options such as boost control, launch control, and all the cool things. On the M30 you only need one driver since there is only one coil and a distributor. I plan on running the same setup as Jon, but i took off the stock ECU and wiring harness completely, so I'll definately be trying to find a way to get Tach and Speedo to work without the signal from an ECU.


Not sure if I agree with that mate, I use a hall mounted in my upper cam cover looking at an trigger plate bolted to the end of the cam spigot. As far as my experience with VR sensors, I find its less sensitive to air gap and is not any more suspect to dirt etc. Its a pretty trick sensor. It looks for the presence of magnets in the trigger plate, depending on which pole it facing the sensor on the magent, it will output a pulse on either of two channels. This way, you can have full crank position plus pre-TDC#1 sync for full sequential out of one little sensor just by configuring the magenets. Easy! Can't do that with VR.

It should be pointed out that a few stock installations use hall instead of VR with otherwise similar trigger wheels (60-2, 36-1 etc) as well as on the dizzy.

Optical sensors are usually enclosed, for example the ones used by Nissan. I know guys where swear by them as they say the 360 pulse per rev resolution gives more accurate spark timing but I dont know. You would not want to 'build' your own optical trigger for the reasons you point out. Many modders will use a nissan optical trigger unit as is provides both crank position and cam reference from one unit.

The speedometer pulse comes from a hall sensor mounted in the diff, outputting a square wave pattern. Tach depends on your ignition set up. If you run wasted spark (like me) your ECU has to condition the signal somewhat, i.e. it must be able to send one 'consolidated' tach pulse for every 3 ignition events. If you take off one could the tach will read off by 50%. Most aftermarket ECU will have a dedicated tach output that can be configured for anything from dizzy, wasted spak or direct fire.

Cheers.

[Jon K]

Not sure if I agree with that mate, I use a hall mounted in my upper cam cover looking at an trigger plate bolted to the end of the cam spigot. As far as my experience with VR sensors, I find its less sensitive to air gap and is not any more suspect to dirt etc. Its a pretty trick sensor. It looks for the presence of magnets in the trigger plate, depending on which pole it facing the sensor on the magent, it will output a pulse on either of two channels. This way, you can have full crank position plus pre-TDC#1 sync for full sequential out of one little sensor just by configuring the magenets. Easy! Can't do that with VR.

It should be pointed out that a few stock installations use hall instead of VR with otherwise similar trigger wheels (60-2, 36-1 etc) as well as on the dizzy.

Optical sensors are usually enclosed, for example the ones used by Nissan. I know guys where swear by them as they say the 360 pulse per rev resolution gives more accurate spark timing but I dont know. You would not want to 'build' your own optical trigger for the reasons you point out. Many modders will use a nissan optical trigger unit as is provides both crank position and cam reference from one unit.

The speedometer pulse comes from a hall sensor mounted in the diff, outputting a square wave pattern. Tach depends on your ignition set up. If you run wasted spark (like me) your ECU has to condition the signal somewhat, i.e. it must be able to send one 'consolidated' tach pulse for every 3 ignition events. If you take off one could the tach will read off by 50%. Most aftermarket ECU will have a dedicated tach output that can be configured for anything from dizzy, wasted spak or direct fire.

Cheers.

I am going to agree bjl4776 in that VR is much easier to make than a hall or optical. The hall is still prone to magnetic fields and such. The VR is great because it cane be exposed to elements and the wires arent subject to interference as much. That's why cam position sensors (enclosed) are hall and crank position sensors are exposed at the crank (for the most part).

As for the tach input to a analog gauge, the MegaSquirt has a dedicated pad when running the MSnS-E firmware that requires a couple resistors and a diode i think in order to output a tach signal. It's pretty intelligent.

[beetos]

Mmmm, interesting. I guess we all have our preferences. Main thing is that whatever you use works. Personally, my last experience with VR was not good, very low voltage at cranking leading to the ECU not syncing. Never had any problems with respect to dirt/elements etc. Anyway, its all good.

Keep us posted on your progress Jon, its very interesting stuff.

I am close to buying an E11 Haltech ECU but for now am installing a Tech Edge wideband and some new 85lb/hr squirters. Should be good for 25lbs of boost......:) Party on!