M60 - Head Gasket failed (oil leak), what else should we do while it's apart?

[Super90]

OK, it's official, the head gasket is indeed the culprit of the oil leak into the galley and in order to fix, we gotta pull the heads. You can see the oil leaking from the head. FYI, valve cover gaskets are tight as are the PCV plate and aluminium tube. Leakdown and compression data all good.

So, we are going to pull the heads, send them out to the machine shop to make sure they are flat and put things back together. That's the short version of the story, as my shop (www.rhinewest.com) is currently figuring the costs and their ideas on what else we address while it's apart.

Now, I ask the board, what are the other things I should proactively address while we are in there? Let's brainstorm for a moment.

FYI, the car has 126k on the clock, intake seals, water pipes and o-rings, galley cover, heater hoses, etc. were all done at 100k by your's truely.

Would one want to potentially replace the timing chain? Any likelihood it has stretched over the years? Chain guides? Cyclonic oil separator?

Any other ideas?

I plan on diving the car for another couple of years at least, as I have personally addressed the other typical maintenance items. Within the past three years, all the typical suspension items have been recently replaced, all steering wearable items replaced, new p/s hoses, recent clutch (OK, I didn't do that one!), shift linkage rebuilt, new tranny mounts, motor mounts, guibo, belts, hoses, radiator, t-stat, water pump, etc. etc.

Car is in fine shape, until this head gasket issue!!!

Any ideas appreciated,

[632 Regal]

What galley do you see oil???

"OK, it's official, the head gasket is indeed the culprit of the oil leak into the galley and in order to fix, we gotta pull the heads. You can see the oil leaking from the head. FYI, valve cover gaskets are tight as are the PCV plate and aluminium tube. Leakdown and compression data all good."

Around the spark plugs? thats the valve cover gaskets. galley under the intake? thats the valve cover gaskets.

just cause the valve gaskets are tight definetly does NOT mean they are fine!

Unless of course you just WANT to pull the heads for the fun of it!

[MTechnik540i]

OK, it's official, the head gasket is indeed the culprit of the oil leak into the galley and in order to fix, we gotta pull the heads. You can see the oil leaking from the head. FYI, valve cover gaskets are tight as are the PCV plate and aluminium tube. Leakdown and compression data all good.

So, we are going to pull the heads, send them out to the machine shop to make sure they are flat and put things back together. That's the short version of the story, as my shop (www.rhinewest.com) is currently figuring the costs and their ideas on what else we address while it's apart.

Now, I ask the board, what are the other things I should proactively address while we are in there? Let's brainstorm for a moment.

FYI, the car has 126k on the clock, intake seals, water pipes and o-rings, galley cover, heater hoses, etc. were all done at 100k by your's truely.

Would one want to potentially replace the timing chain? Any likelihood it has stretched over the years? Chain guides? Cyclonic oil separator?

Any other ideas?

I plan on diving the car for another couple of years at least, as I have personally addressed the other typical maintenance items. Within the past three years, all the typical suspension items have been recently replaced, all steering wearable items replaced, new p/s hoses, recent clutch (OK, I didn't do that one!), shift linkage rebuilt, new tranny mounts, motor mounts, guibo, belts, hoses, radiator, t-stat, water pump, etc. etc.

Car is in fine shape, until this head gasket issue!!!

Any ideas appreciated,


Hot cams!

[MBXB]

Jeff has a good point. If a head gasket was messed up, wouldn't your leakdown and compression data be off?


OK, it's official, the head gasket is indeed the culprit of the oil leak into the galley and in order to fix, we gotta pull the heads. You can see the oil leaking from the head. FYI, valve cover gaskets are tight as are the PCV plate and aluminium tube. Leakdown and compression data all good.

[632 Regal]

maybe but theres still a chance that something else went awry, I dont believe that to be this case cause of his description of where he is seeing the oil. I havent read ov any headgasket failures on the M-60s in the last 2 years so I think this dude just wants to see what makes his engine tick. I would too but all them damn chains freak me out big time!


Jeff has a good point. If a head gasket was messed up, wouldn't your leakdown and compression data be off?

[jjw]

Well, the question should be "How much do you planing to spend?" Have the head checked for warp, cam wear, and leak/crack, valve seal. I would change the time chains, tensioner, maybe have the head reconditioned, ie. Change the lifters, valve guide, seat, valve, seal. Those kind of stuff. But of course, it all depend on how much$.

[632 Regal]

why pull the head is the point.


Well, the question should be "How much do you planing to spend?" Have the head checked for warp, cam wear, and leak/crack, valve seal. I would change the time chains, tensioner, maybe have the head reconditioned, ie. Change the lifters, valve guide, seat, valve, seal. Those kind of stuff. But of course, it all depend on how much$.

[jjw]

Well, I mean, if he does pull the head. I am not talking about "why"

[grave77]

I agree here, I just replaced the head gasket on my M30 engine, oil leaks happen in the valve cover, head gasket causes hell more trouble, oil/water mixture and heating up.

[tim]

I never seen nor heard of a head gasket failure on an m60 that wasn't related to a failed/detached oil pump or a massive failure in the cooling system. Valve cover gaskets, pcv, intake manifold, sure; but a head gasket? With leakdown and compression showing normal it's pretty hard to believe. Most of the time when I find oil in the valley pan it came from the valve covers.

Anyway, if it is, you can bet it's due to your oil pump bolts loosening up (as they all do until they get the locktite). It probably loosened itself up enough so that the pump lost its seal, and therefore its lifting ability. The problem would ultimately manefest like an m30 that had cam oil starvation due to the banjo bolt working its way out.

The chain procedure, which will require remove the upper and lower timing covers, is easy, just measure the play with a straightedge and a caliper against spec. The chains are badass bro, I'd be stunned if they were that far out of spec. And inspect the plastic chainguides for wear/damage. they break and the pieces can clog **** up.

[DanDombrowski]

I second this motion

[tim]

This whole thing makes more sense if you replace "valve cover gasket" with "head gasket" in the original post.

[632 Regal]

why not?
Well, I mean, if he does pull the head. I am not talking about "why"

[jjw]

I have not seen the car and it is just speculation that may not be the head gasket. Althought it is very rare, but it can happen. The compression and cylinder leakage test will not show anything if it is not leaking into the cylinders. Anyway, I have not seen the car and just give the benefit of the doubt that the shop is telling the truth.

[632 Regal]

it will be okay if he takes a lot of pictures.
:D

[jjw]

True

[Super90]

So, the question is not if the head gasket is leaking. It is confirmed. These guys have seen this happen on three or four other cars. The oil is leaking on the left cylinder bank at the front on the motor (away from the firewall) and you can see it slowly leak into the galley with a flashlight and an inspection mirror. Why is there not a change in compression, etc.? Because that part of the gasket evidently has not been compromised. My guess is that a section around an oil galley is the problem.

So, the heads are coming off. How much do we want to spend? That depends on what we really should do. The heads will be checked for warp, leaks/cracks, etc. and the guys were mentioning the valve seals as a potential item. Chains, tensioner etc was a thought I have had. Not sure if we go the full route of the guides, seats, valves, etc. Car has been running Mobil1 for the past 75k and things look really nice, clean and shiney; like new. But, those other items would be a possibility, I guess.

Their initial guess, without putting pencil to paper, was about $2500. Now we are trying to make the full list.

No, I don't think these fellows are trying to work me over. I have a long-standing relationship with them as I have used them for eight years and they have been great support for me doing most of my own repairs for that time. There are seven or eight techs in there and I asked them all personnally to look at it and render an opinion. When I spoke to each separately, they all gave the same prognosis. If one guy doesn't believe the others, I definitely hear about it as there is a bit of professional rivalry there.

[Johntee540]

Make sure that the gasket for the PCV Plate at the back of the motor gets done. I did mine at the same time I did the intake gaskets. - JT

[Super90]

yep, that is pretty new, but maybe we replace all the intake gaskets again. thanks!

[632 Regal]

if you cant take pictures of the progress, please DEFINETLY get a few shots of the bad gasket to shut me up. :D

[Super90]

I'll definitely do all I can to get some photos of the offending head gasket.