Steam out exhaust

[wjbell]

I have a 1990 535i that I recently had the head gasket replaced on. The gasket was replaced in August, I say recently because I drive the car very little and it's parked in my garage the majority of the time. There's probably been a total of 1000 miles put on it since August when the head gasket was done.

So I had the gasket replaced and they told me I need to drive the car about 1000 miles and then to bring it back in and they will retourque the head. It ran great after the initial head gasket replacement.

So after close to 1K miles I brought it back and they retourqued the head. When I brought it home I noticed the car idling different. Maybe a little rougher. I thought that maybe when they retourqued that they did somthing to the valve adjustment so I brought it back in to have them check it. They told me that "a couple of the valves where a little off" and it should be fixed.

Hmm.. OK. I didn't really buy that but just chalked it up as maybe I didn't remember that the car actually did idle rough and I'm just being overly critical.

So today I start the car up for the first time in a couple of weeks and notice that I'm getting a lot of steam out of the exhaust. Like when you start your car up in the morning when it's 40 degrees out side. Only it's 60 degrees out side. It's a moderate amount of steam and it takes a while to evaporate once it exits the tailpipe.

So I started up my 98 F150 to see if it did the same thing and there was no steam at all.

So does this sound like I'm getting water in the combustion chamber? Is there any way I can test this further? I'm scheduled to take it back in tomorrow morning and if there is somthing wrong I'd like to go in there with a little more knowledge than just a guess in case they try to give me any BS excuse and send me on my way.

Any help is appreciated.

[calmloki]

Drive the car a mile or so, pull the plugs, keeping them in order with the holes you pull them from, and look at all the combustion areas on the plugs. Got one or two that look extra clean and white? There's your sign. :-(
Tom Walrod

[angrypancake]

i thought that the steam was normal and it takes a while for the ehaust/cats to heat up? i know when its humid and or cold my car steams from the exhaust until it gets to normal operating temp and then its good. if the smoke is white then there are issues, otherwise it should be ok.

[632 Regal]

what about your coolant level? This is where you should have concentrated, if you tell them it steams like crazy and the coolant level has went down they are more likely to investigate.

as for pulling the plugs to check for the wet cylinder it should be shut off before it steams like crazy. Removing and tightening plugs in an aluminum head is dangerous cause you can very easily gall the aluminum threads.

Good luck with it all!

[wjbell]

That would make sense if the steam is normal from condensation because my car sits in an uninsulated garage without running for weeks at a time. And it is the rainy season...

I'm pretty sure it's steam and not white smoke, but it's hard to tell. I think I'll take it for a good run tommorow and then pull the plugs after it cools down and see what they look like.

[Kalevera]

It's true that there may be some coolant burning through the cat, the most extreme case I've seen took about 40 minutes of running to clear up after the initial repair.

Burning coolant has that acrid smell, much different than the typical "sweet" vapor you get from an exhaust.


best, whit

[632 Regal]

the italian tune up might be an idea too then! (look at coolant level before and in the next morning).

[Blitzkrieg Bob]

into the chambers it will begin to show up in the drivebility of the car since the O2 sensor will be contaminated with burnt coolent and start to fail.

[632 Regal]

in other words, failure of something is inevitable.

[SRR2]

There is no such thing as a '1000 mile' torque-up of the head bolts. It's not in the spec.

If they performed the installation according to BMW specs, that should have been necessary and sufficient. THEY screwed it up (i.e. it's leaking) by fooling around with it at this 1000 mile point. BMW is VERY picky about the head bolt installation and tightening process. Where did these guys figure that they knew more than BMW's engineers?

They owe you a new head gasket and proper installation to the specification.

Guys, I hate to nitpick, but what's coming out of this member's car is not steam. It's WATER VAPOR. Steam is, by definition, "colorless, odorless, and transparent". You can't see steam. You can see the water vapor produced by steam when it condenses into tiny droplets in the air. Another important property of steam is that it is DRY. Liquid water results only when it condenses, either in the atmosphere (or wherever it's allowed to cool and expand) or on an object whose temperature is below the liquid-vapor equilibrium point at the prevailing pressure.

And while I'm at it, torque is LB-FT. The "foot-pound" is a unit of work in the classical English measurement system. In metric it's newton-meter (N-M) which, you will note has the units in the same order as lb-ft.

[Torque]

http://blackstone-labs.com/ < send them your oil for analysis ... it will detect if there is coolant in it, etc. probably the easiest way to tell; plus its only 20-30 dollars.

[dacoyote]

Wrong

[632 Regal]

I think today is the day he is taking it in...we will hear what they tell him later.

[dacoyote]

I think today is the day he is taking it in...we will hear what they tell him later.
Remember those posters that said, "Today is the first day of the rest of your life"? Well, that's true of every day but one - the day you die.

Lester Burnham

[SRR2]

Well, that's enlightening.

[632 Regal]

Lightning?

[dacoyote]

Thunder?

[DaCan23]

An older car sitting for a while will have moisture buildup in the engine and if you take the oil cap off u may think coolant, but its just water, need to run it a good 1hr or so to burn it off....

[632 Regal]

how can you "burn water"?
An older car sitting for a while will have moisture buildup in the engine and if you take the oil cap off u may think coolant, but its just water, need to run it a good 1hr or so to burn it off....

[DaCan23]

you know what I mean..... heat=evaporate=burn.....


how can you "burn water"?

[angrypancake]

Thunder?

cloud? i love the word association game

[632 Regal]

into vapor or dry steam?
you know what I mean..... heat=evaporate=burn.....

[dacoyote]

High... like your picture high

[DaCan23]

into pure hydrogen to capture to build up a stockpile for in 15 yrs when we are driving hydrogen cars


into vapor or dry steam?

[dacoyote]

into vapor or dry steam?

water can be made into things that burn

[angrypancake]

High... like your picture high
sky... and you mean high like this? http://img494.imageshack.us/img494/1674/jamaica1873fu.jpg

[scott540]

Mine steams a lot too. I only drive it about a mile to work and a mile back so a lot of moisture collects and then when I drive it farther then a lot of steam comes out for while until it's good and hot

[dacoyote]

pie

yes about the high... what does the picture say?

[Kalevera]

I was initially going to write what Steve said, but scratched it because of the interpretability of the initial post.

When I torque one of these, I use new head bolts (I don't care what everyone else says, you need new bolts). The initial stage happens when the head meets the block, then the car is put back together and run for ~ 20 minutes. This SETS the gasket. Then, the valve cover comes back off and the head is torqued to....I believe it's 30 degrees on the M30....which will finish it. Now, when the coolant intermixes with the oil, the oil/filter gets changed twice before the car is returned to the customer, and then the car comes back 500 miles later for another oil change, during which the valve cover gets popped and the valve train is inspected.

So, my concern here, as I think is Steve's, is that they didn't do a final angle torque of the head, which means they didn't do the job correctly, and there probably isn't just one leak. Who did the work, anyway?


best, whit

[wjbell]

The work was done at Schatz & Krum, a pretty reputible shop in Sacramento. The guy's been working on BMWs for 20 years, races BMWs, etc so it would seem he knows what he's doing.

Instead of bringing the car in today (my choice) I called and talked to the owner himself. He told me that the big six doesn't use stretch bolts and that he's been doing heads on these for years and reusing the head bolts.

I'm going to monitor the the coolant level and see if it drops at all. From a few posts in this thread there's a good chance it can just be condesation.

One thing to note, when I initially start it up cold there's no steam. After a couple of minutes then it starts steaming, and after driving it for a half hour there's no steam any more.


I was initially going to write what Steve said, but scratched it because of the interpretability of the initial post.

When I torque one of these, I use new head bolts (I don't care what everyone else says, you need new bolts). The initial stage happens when the head meets the block, then the car is put back together and run for ~ 20 minutes. This SETS the gasket. Then, the valve cover comes back off and the head is torqued to....I believe it's 30 degrees on the M30....which will finish it. Now, when the coolant intermixes with the oil, the oil/filter gets changed twice before the car is returned to the customer, and then the car comes back 500 miles later for another oil change, during which the valve cover gets popped and the valve train is inspected.

So, my concern here, as I think is Steve's, is that they didn't do a final angle torque of the head, which means they didn't do the job correctly, and there probably isn't just one leak. Who did the work, anyway?


best, whit

[genphreak]

The work was done at Schatz & Krum, a pretty reputible shop in Sacramento. The guy's been working on BMWs for 20 years, races BMWs, etc so it would seem he knows what he's doing.I think I speak for everyone, race, shop or backyarder when I say we all do the torquing technique that Whit described- whether new or old bolts are used. Some might get away with some laziness/enhancements on either side of it, but nothing like what you describe even when reusing the bolts. Either way this guy has done it outside the standard procedure (clearly described in the Bently workshop publication), and advised you not to replace the head bolts, which (I imagine, you should check) is outside more than just the accepted norm, it is outside BMW's procedure as well. Hell, at $2.05 each why not replace them even if just for insurance?

If that is the case, you should have your oil tested quick-smart by a nuetral party as previously suggested to ensure an appropriate resolution, which might involve doing the job again; 'by the book' instead of by feel (as it is clearly in question). If you let them fix it their way, you might be needing it done again next summer, or the one after that, or the one after that... :) Nick

[632 Regal]

Warren, how bad is the steam when you can see it? Is it cold there? Mine does the same thing but its cold in michigan for about the same duration.

My question here is, did they do the final torque after the gasket set or is this appointment to inspect the valvetrain?

I guess what you should ask them is what is the procedure in replacing the gasket in relation to the torque values, tell them you want to know for peace of mind or something like that.



One thing to note, when I initially start it up cold there's no steam. After a couple of minutes then it starts steaming, and after driving it for a half hour there's no steam any more.

[Kalevera]

I know Schatz, and I know that the bolts aren't designed to stretch. I also know that it is a common practice for people, professional or otherwise, to reuse these bolts. I also know how to read TIS:

http://www.bimmer.info/~lowell/m30bolts.jpg

Finally, I know that TIS occasionally misprints figures. A head bolt is not something on which I'd want to take a chance.

best, whit

[genphreak]

I know Schatz, and I know that the bolts aren't designed to stretch. I also know that it is a common practice for people, professional or otherwise, to reuse these bolts. I also know how to read TIS... Finally, I know that TIS occasionally misprints figures. A head bolt is not something on which I'd want to take a chance. best, whit That's the detail! Thing is, I guess they could well have done it properly in the first place (ie by the book). I might tell such customers to come back after 1000km also, just to get a chance to check it all over, make sure everything is still on spec and that there are no leaks. So perhaps we are being to literall about it; perhaps this is what they mean when they say they want to 're-torque the head' (general check-over), so it may be prudent not to jump to conclusions and give them a chance if you trust them.

I'd probably still get the oil test done- its cheap and then you'd know if you will have to go back and ask all the nasty questions. Especially if it helps them diagnose a problem, also especially as they may need to decide to whether or not to replace a head gasket and check it over a bit better than (perhaps ) they did before... and clarify the procedure they used was the correct one. After all, all this can be caused by bad-luck, a genuine mistake like one bolt being mis-torqued or even a piece of crap sneakily falling on the gasket, let alone a faulty gasket!

[wjbell]

It's not pouring out of the exhaust, but it's enough that when you at a light you can see it blowing by you. The thing that struck me funny was that this was happening when it was 60 degrees outside.

I don't know what procedure they used to torque it initially, but I specifically asked the machanic that worked on it when I brought it back for the '1000 mile re-tourque', "how did you retorque the head?" He said, "By loosening each head bolt up, in order, and re-torquing it".

It really bothers me that it wasn't torqued correctly by BMW spec. And that a shop that works almost exclusivly on BMW doesn't do it by the spec... unless I missed the 'thousand-mile-retorque' in the TIS readout below.. :|

I am keeping an eye on the water level at the request of the shop owner. So far it hasn't dropped since I marked it yesterday.

Where can I go to get my oil tested? Is this definate proof of a bad head gasket?


Warren, how bad is the steam when you can see it? Is it cold there? Mine does the same thing but its cold in michigan for about the same duration.

My question here is, did they do the final torque after the gasket set or is this appointment to inspect the valvetrain?

I guess what you should ask them is what is the procedure in replacing the gasket in relation to the torque values, tell them you want to know for peace of mind or something like that.

[Paul in NZ]

the duration of the steam(sorry condensing water vapour) seems right..when you first start the exhaust coming out the tailpipe is stone cold...after a couple of minutes its warm so you get the excess water in the exhaust condensing in the relatively cool morning air and after about 20 or 30 minutes the water which has condensed in the exhaust system is finally driven out buy the action of the HOT exhaust gases heating the system enough to evaporate all the water in the exhaust so the excess water vapour no longer is visible.There is always some water in the combustion gases as a product the combustion of petrol.It happens longer on the Bimmers cos theres so much metal to heat up in the system

[henry161]

Having just suffered this myself I can sympathise. My cylinder head turned out to be cracked in 2 places. I suspected that the head gasket was blown for the reasons you have mentioned (trail of vapour coming from exhaust,blowing past me at standstill,seemed excessive considering ambient temperature). I booked in to have it looked at but before I could get there for the pressure test one of my cylinders filled up with coolant - when I tried to start the engine all I got was a sickening clunk noise. Just before that the engine was lumpy at idle but otherwise ran perfectly. If I could offer one piece of advice I would say get it tested as soon as you can. Good luck.

[calmloki]

So did you ever pull ther plugs to check for "steam cleaning" on one or several?
Tom Walrod

It's not pouring out of the exhaust, but it's enough that when you at a light you can see it blowing by you. The thing that struck me funny was that this was happening when it was 60 degrees outside.

I don't know what procedure they used to torque it initially, but I specifically asked the machanic that worked on it when I brought it back for the '1000 mile re-tourque', "how did you retorque the head?" He said, "By loosening each head bolt up, in order, and re-torquing it".

It really bothers me that it wasn't torqued correctly by BMW spec. And that a shop that works almost exclusivly on BMW doesn't do it by the spec... unless I missed the 'thousand-mile-retorque' in the TIS readout below.. :|

I am keeping an eye on the water level at the request of the shop owner. So far it hasn't dropped since I marked it yesterday.

Where can I go to get my oil tested? Is this definate proof of a bad head gasket?

[632 Regal]

so they just now retorqued it?

[NovceGuru]

Mine steams a lot too. I only drive it about a mile to work and a mile back so a lot of moisture collects and then when I drive it farther then a lot of steam comes out for while until it's good and hot

I hope you change your oil a hell of a lot more often :) Pop off your oil cap and look at all the white sludge :(

[jjw]

I would do a cylinder leakage test or a block check, instead of pressure test of the cooling system. So, it will not do further damage to the engine, flood the cylinder, and if there is a leak, you will see boubles.