03/14/04 R.I.P my fuel pump.....arggg.......

[Brian C.]

I just went out to do a few errands and it seems that the starting question I posed a few days ago has been answered. The engine will crank, but no hint of it sparking up. The past two times I've started the car, Friday and Saturday, it would crank 4,5,6, times before starting, something that it's never done and when I'd put it in drive it would stall. It never stalls either. Kind of a shuddering upon initial accelleration, but once it got going it drove OK, no other problems. That, of course, was then. Now.....nothing. Just crankity-crankity-crankity-crank.

A stomp test reveils short-long-short-long, which as I recall means no codes present or something like that. I think. Is that right? So I've pretty much narrowed it down to it being the fuel pump. I've looked in the TIS and it shows the pump and the relay and the sending unit. The r&r procedure that it shows talks about emptying the fuel tank...OYE!...THAT sounds like a major PIA! My tank is now around 3/4 full. The link on Bruno's site for fuel pump replacement (http://www.bmwe34.net/e34main/maintenance/engine/FuelPump.htm) shows that the access is from the trunk, under the carpet. It talks about it showing the R&R for an '89 535i. I have a '95 525i. Same procedure? Here's some questions from an increasingly poorer man:

* Does the fuel need to be emptied from the tank? (Puhleeeese say no!)
* Is what I need to do what is shown here (http://www.bmwe34.net/e34main/maintenance/engine/FuelPump.htm) ?
*The ETK shows a p/n for the "sending unit assy metal tank" as 16 14 1 180 889. Is this the whole tamale that's shown in Bruno's pics?
* Does that include the fuel filter or is that something else I need to do.
* Will I need any new hose or clamps?
* How many beers should be available for consumption during this procedure?

This doesn't look like too difficult of a fix, it's just that I try to stay with fixing the stuff that won't effect driving....lights, wipers, switches...etc. I'm just thinking that in order to save a few bucks, I need to do this. It no werky without pump! If it does involve emptying the tank, I can't do that so I'll just bend over and take it to the shop.

Whadaya guys think? Is there anything else I need to know before I f**k this up all by myself? :p

Brian C.
'95 525ia

[ryan roopnarine]

get a fuel pressure gauge and make sure that it is indeed the pump, 15-40$/300$ For a new pump ain't that much and it keeps you from replacing it unnecessarily. second, i don't think you HAVE to empty the tank per se, its just that your hands and arms will get a bath in gasoline if you don't. procedure is same for yours, as it is for mine, and this one. you may as well change the fuel filter while you're there, it will probably take more time to do than it will to change the pump......the pump is easy to extricate, it probably took more effort to get your headlight out than the pump will. if i was in the ftL/miama area and time wasn't an issue i'd take a swing at rebuilding it for you, but you sound like you need to get back on the road, so ill leave you to bma/overnight option if/when you get the indy estimate.

[Warren N.CA]

You will save 50% on just the part, and all the labor. New pumps are about $200 at deep discount.

I don't think you need to empty the tank. There needs to be fuel in the tank to cool the pump.

Just be sure it is the pump and not something else (relay or?). Check Bentley for diagnosis. Then, if appropriate, remove your pump and get p/n off of it, to be sure you order the right one.




I just went out to do a few errands and it seems that the starting question I posed a few days ago has been answered. The engine will crank, but no hint of it sparking up. The past two times I've started the car, Friday and Saturday, it would crank 4,5,6, times before starting, something that it's never done and when I'd put it in drive it would stall. It never stalls either. Kind of a shuddering upon initial accelleration, but once it got going it drove OK, no other problems. That, of course, was then. Now.....nothing. Just crankity-crankity-crankity-crank.

A stomp test reveils short-long-short-long, which as I recall means no codes present or something like that. I think. Is that right? So I've pretty much narrowed it down to it being the fuel pump. I've looked in the TIS and it shows the pump and the relay and the sending unit. The r&r procedure that it shows talks about emptying the fuel tank...OYE!...THAT sounds like a major PIA! My tank is now around 3/4 full. The link on Bruno's site for fuel pump replacement (http://www.bmwe34.net/e34main/maintenance/engine/FuelPump.htm) shows that the access is from the trunk, under the carpet. It talks about it showing the R&R for an '89 535i. I have a '95 525i. Same procedure? Here's some questions from an increasingly poorer man:

* Does the fuel need to be emptied from the tank? (Puhleeeese say no!)
* Is what I need to do what is shown here (http://www.bmwe34.net/e34main/maintenance/engine/FuelPump.htm) ?
*The ETK shows a p/n for the "sending unit assy metal tank" as 16 14 1 180 889. Is this the whole tamale that's shown in Bruno's pics?
* Does that include the fuel filter or is that something else I need to do.
* Will I need any new hose or clamps?
* How many beers should be available for consumption during this procedure?

This doesn't look like too difficult of a fix, it's just that I try to stay with fixing the stuff that won't effect driving....lights, wipers, switches...etc. I'm just thinking that in order to save a few bucks, I need to do this. It no werky without pump! If it does involve emptying the tank, I can't do that so I'll just bend over and take it to the shop.

Whadaya guys think? Is there anything else I need to know before I f**k this up all by myself? :p

Brian C.
'95 525ia

[Brian C.]

get a fuel pressure gauge and make sure that it is indeed the pump, 15-40$/300$ For a new pump ain't that much and it keeps you from replacing it unnecessarily. second, i don't think you HAVE to empty the tank per se, its just that your hands and arms will get a bath in gasoline if you don't. procedure is same for yours, as it is for mine, and this one. you may as well change the fuel filter while you're there, it will probably take more time to do than it will to change the pump......the pump is easy to extricate, it probably took more effort to get your headlight out than the pump will. if i was in the ftL/miama area and time wasn't an issue i'd take a swing at rebuilding it for you, but you sound like you need to get back on the road, so ill leave you to bma/overnight option if/when you get the indy estimate.


...#23 as Bentley notes, and it seems OK. Then I looked at the relay in the E-box. I'd ALMOST forgotten what a PIA getting those 4 phillips screws off was! Other than looking at the relay and seeing that it was intact and had no signs of frying I have no other way to test it, so I put it back in.

So if I have a fuel pressure gauge, I hook it up and it will tell me what? That the pump is/is not operating? If I'm not getting any start-up, the fuses and relay are good , then it must be the pump or a clogged filter. I'm gonna try this first. I'm going to go out and jump the relay in the E-box and see it the pump runs.

I'll be baaaach......

Brian C.

[winfred]

easy job, few screws, couple hose clamps, few 10mm bolts, plug, you don't need to drain the tank if you don't mind reaching through the gas to unclip the pump from the bottom of the tank, you squease a couple ears to realease the pump from the plastic fixture on the floor of the tank

[632 Regal]

Take pictures! :D

[Brian C.]

....#30 to #87, and went back and put my ear on the access cover and the humming noise seems to indicate that the pump it working, no? So at this point my feeble diagnostic brain tells me that the relay is shot and needs replacement, yes? And I've figured this out on only on 2 Coronas....so far....and some help from all sorts of little birdies. ;)

I see that:

RELAY, MAKE CONTACT, WHITE GREEN p/n 61 36 8 373 700 with pins..


________
87

30 85

86
_________

...is what is specified in Bentley. As so...

http://www.bimmer.info/bmw/Brian/fuelpumprelay.jpg
Correcto? I've edited this because the first relay I found in the ETK didn't seem to be the right one on second examination, and third beer. Now, if I can only find a place open at 2pm on a Sunday afternoon! Any of this sound like it's makin' sense yet?

Brian C.
....how'm I doin' so far??
:p

[Brian C.]

......were those the door seals that you were looking for Jeff?

Brian C.

[Brian C.]

I think I'm starting to realize why you mechanic guys get all that $$$/hr!

Now I pulled the relay from the e-box and look at it. It has a different part number...61 36 8 366 600...on it than what the ETK states here:

http://www.bimmer.info/bmw/Brian/fuelpumprelay.jpg
BUT...........(you tricky little devils thought I wouldn't find this huh?)...I see a button for "supercession" and press it and get this:

http://www.bimmer.info/bmw/Brian/fuelpumprelaynew.jpg
...and there's the elusive old part number that's actually on my old relay, that has now been superceeded by the new part number...61 36 8 373 700...which is the one that I will ask for at the parts counter tomorrow morning! Can I get an "AMEN" on any of this?? Am I being worthy of a Junior Cubscout Mechanic Badge yet??

Brian C.
....only up to 4 beers.
:D

[Brian C.]

....about the relay(see below)being bad. I'm glad you guys prodded me to look at other things before buying a pump. I hope I'm right about the relay, only thing is that nothing is open right now that has one, so I'll get one Monday morning and plug it in. Then I'll see what happens! :D

Brian C.

[Bellicose Right Winger]

Put the jumper back in and try to start the car...your problem may not be fuel.

Paul Shovestul

[winfred]

ditto


Put the jumper back in and try to start the car...your problem may not be fuel.

Paul Shovestul

[Brian C.]

....still no go. :( So what now? I guess I'm going to be replacing the pump afterall. I guess I could check to see if the filter is clogged somehow.....I dunno.......

Thanks for the tip Paul.

Brian C.

[632 Regal]

Might me the right door seals but I do want a workable etk instead of this useless one I got off ebay with no part numbers for my car.


......were those the door seals that you were looking for Jeff?

Brian C.

[Bellicose Right Winger]

Don't buy that fuel pump just yet. Could be bad crankshaft sensor, bad DME main relay, bad DME and probably some other things. Check for 12v on terminal 87 of fuel pump relay while cranking. If present then fuel pump relay is ok and crankshaft sensor/DME/main relay are working. Next step is to determine if fuel rail is indeed pressurized when fuel pump is running. Now you need pressure gage to confirm bad fuel pump.

Paul Shovestul


....still no go. :( So what now? I guess I'm going to be replacing the pump afterall. I guess I could check to see if the filter is clogged somehow.....I dunno.......

Thanks for the tip Paul.

Brian C.

[Javier]

Just start the car with the jumper as suggested. If no start even though pump is humming (Would be good to check also fuel pressure as suggested in a previous post) , then check your Crankshaft position sensor. If CPS is bad, you should also miss the spark at the plugs.

You can also test the relay powering it with 12Vdc between terminals 86 and 87. You should feel the click and get electrical continuity between terminals 30 and 87.

[Brian C.]

.....and three of them involve cold Coronas and lime wedges.

The forth is to call it a day...actually night...since it's gotten quite dark and it's started to rain just enough to piss me off. I've spent the past 45 minutes looking for the friggin' crankshaft and camshaft sensors but I can't figure out where they are. I've got a Bentley, but it's no help. The TIS photo shows where it SHOULD be, but I'm thinking that a lot of air intake and manifold stuff needs to be removed to even see the sensors. The car's outside and I only have a flashlight so I'm going to de-gunk my hands and arms and give it another try in the morning. I'm not too happy.

But I am encouraged and thankful to EVERYONE who has given ideas, tips, e-mails, photos and other general help. I'm not much of a mechanic generally but if I at least have some idea of what to do, I'll give it a try if I can.

Come on over.....the cold one's are on me!

Brian C.
'95 525ia

[632 Regal]

.....and three of them involve cold Coronas and lime wedges.

The forth is to call it a day...actually night...since it's gotten quite dark and it's started to rain just enough to piss me off. I've spent the past 45 minutes looking for the friggin' crankshaft and camshaft sensors but I can't figure out where they are. I've got a Bentley, but it's no help. The TIS photo shows where it SHOULD be, but I'm thinking that a lot of air intake and manifold stuff needs to be removed to even see the sensors. The car's outside and I only have a flashlight so I'm going to de-gunk my hands and arms and give it another try in the morning. I'm not too happy.

But I am encouraged and thankful to EVERYONE who has given ideas, tips, e-mails, photos and other general help. I'm not much of a mechanic generally but if I at least have some idea of what to do, I'll give it a try if I can.

Come on over.....the cold one's are on me!

Brian C.
'95 525ia

[Bellicose Right Winger]

Unfortunately testing for spark on M50 engines is next to impossible. Your relay test will work, but the rely isn't the problem since the car won't run with jumper installed. The test I proposed will determine if the DME is energizing the fuel pump relay. If there's no voltage on 87 while cranking then the problem isn't fuel pressure related....it's crank position sensor/DME etc.

Paul Shovestul



Just start the car with the jumper as suggested. If no start even though pump is humming (Would be good to check also fuel pressure as suggested in a previous post) , then check your Crankshaft position sensor. If CPS is bad, you should also miss the spark at the plugs.

You can also test the relay powering it with 12Vdc between terminals 86 and 87. You should feel the click and get electrical continuity between terminals 30 and 87.

[Brian C.]

:p

[ryan roopnarine]

*nt)