BMW VS Commodore

[F4Phantom]

Does anyone know those car enthusiasts who think cheap low priced crappy cars are better quality than good cars? My mate just got a holden berlina which is a base model commore + climate and a few other incidentals. Has an American 5.7L v8 with 220kw. He honestly recons its the best bar ever made. Which is fine except he also recons the quality is better than my BMW. I went for a drive, it has lots of power. The cheap switches are all out of alignment and creaking, ride was woefull. When I called it a commodore he said it was not, it's a berlina. I keep saying it's really not a fair comparison because his car was 40k new and mine was 120k new, it's a different ball park, he wont have it, always wants to draw direct comparisons where the commodore comes out on top (most comparisons evolve around his car being faster). The old VN thread a week or more ago I passed to him and he actually defended the VN and said it was faster than my car (VN has 130kw). I said mate, the BMW 2.5L has 10 more kw than the VN 3.8L. Anyway, this is one of these people we all know who will defend his crap to the hilt in the face of overwhelming evidence. It is frustrating after a while especially as he is usually the one to kick start the topic. I have had a lot of cars in the last decade including a WRX which handle well and are fast but I never thought it was good quality. My BMW is the best car I have ever driven bar a late 911. I have driven every commore out there and the all suck. (sorry any aussies who own a commodore as more than half the population do)

[SharkmanBMW]

for us in North America, it is like comparing a new dodge hemi car with our old bimmers.
They might be fast (read guzzler), but in 3 years, it will be just as shitty as all the other American cars available, just give it time to break in! (read break down), rattle and shake.
No offense to American car owners, including Holden drivers, but we all know our bimmers are smoother, even 15 years later!

[scott540]

that's like the guys who think a good sports car is the newer Monte Carlo!

[Cactuar]

120k for a new 5 series? wtf?

[rob101]

Does anyone know those car enthusiasts who think cheap low priced crappy cars are better quality than good cars? My mate just got a holden berlina which is a base model commore + climate and a few other incidentals. Has an American 5.7L v8 with 220kw. He honestly recons its the best bar ever made. Which is fine except he also recons the quality is better than my BMW. I went for a drive, it has lots of power. The cheap switches are all out of alignment and creaking, ride was woefull. When I called it a commodore he said it was not, it's a berlina. I keep saying it's really not a fair comparison because his car was 40k new and mine was 120k new, it's a different ball park, he wont have it, always wants to draw direct comparisons where the commodore comes out on top (most comparisons evolve around his car being faster). The old VN thread a week or more ago I passed to him and he actually defended the VN and said it was faster than my car (VN has 130kw). I said mate, the BMW 2.5L has 10 more kw than the VN 3.8L. Anyway, this is one of these people we all know who will defend his crap to the hilt in the face of overwhelming evidence. It is frustrating after a while especially as he is usually the one to kick start the topic. I have had a lot of cars in the last decade including a WRX which handle well and are fast but I never thought it was good quality. My BMW is the best car I have ever driven bar a late 911. I have driven every commore out there and the all suck. (sorry any aussies who own a commodore as more than half the population do)
I always used to think this whole euros are so good blah blah build quality blah was a load of rubbish, that said i didn't think much of holdens and fords. But after having 2 bmws of 24 and 14 years of age and seeing the equivalent australian cars, they are pieces of the proverbial in comparison and if people in australia were reasonable about servicing and parts costs for your "premium" car they would cost more ("oh a semi-trailing arm i've never seen one of these before it will take extra "expertice" ").
Anyway some people can't be told, until they experience it. Thats why i don't like to make judgements before there is proof ie specs or if something such as reliability (which is more abstract and subject to alot more heresay) I reserve judgement until I have experienced it for myself. Ultimately the e34s were a reliable car, much more reliable than australian cars of the period. when you tell people you drive a car with 246 000 km on the clock they look at you like you are joking. I've seen mid 90s cars with 140 000 km in much worse condition (japanese cars at that).

[angrypancake]

over in australia cars are much more expensive. and you have to factor in the exchange rate.

[Cactuar]

yeah but still, 120k for a 5 series is insanity. Why's it that much more expensive? I thought people in the UK were getting shafted but Australia is a whole new dimension!

[angrypancake]

beats me, iirc e34's go for around 9k aus that go for 4k us.... probly has to do with the cost of parts that need to be imported? hell, i'm just speculating, we'll let the guys from the land down under answer that.

[wingman]

I'm not sure about Europe/UK/US but in OZ we have ahefty 'luxury car' tariff. We also have the 'tyranny of distance' to contend with. Shipping rates are ridiculous. Never the less we are digressing. I posted the VN thread to just have a laugh at what was 'the new thing' in 1988 and how the motoring press was raving. The thing that irks me the most about the Commodore BMW comparrison is that there is no comparrison. They are in a different league. A bit like comparing the Australian test cricket side with the Roseville under 12s. A mate of mine (Commodore owner), said to me recently, "Nice car mate but those BMWs are over engineered." I mean WTF!?!? Most people who bag BMWs have never owned one and may have never even ridden in one. Let them talk... out of their a**e!

[rob101]

beats me, iirc e34's go for around 9k aus that go for 4k us.... probly has to do with the cost of parts that need to be imported? hell, i'm just speculating, we'll let the guys from the land down under answer that.
Australia's automotive market is not as competitive as say the US, japan or europe. And It doesn't have a significant buying power either as we are a small country.

[wingman]

And what's more. If you are a Holden fan you can wear the shirts, the cap, dress your kids up in Brock gear and all that stuff and noone cares. If you even SAY that you drive a BMW let alone wearing a shirt you are instantly branded a wanker. I hate that!

[rob101]

I'm not sure about Europe/UK/US but in OZ we have ahefty 'luxury car' tariff. We also have the 'tyranny of distance' to contend with. Shipping rates are ridiculous. Never the less we are digressing. I posted the VN thread to just have a laugh at what was 'the new thing' in 1988 and how the motoring press was raving. The thing that irks me the most about the Commodore BMW comparrison is that there is no comparrison. They are in a different league. A bit like comparing the Australian test cricket side with the Roseville under 12s. A mate of mine (Commodore owner), said to me recently, "Nice car mate but those BMWs are over engineered." I mean WTF!?!? Most people who bag BMWs have never owned one and may have never even ridden in one. Let them talk... out of their a**e!
right on the money mate. oh well its d-heads like that, that keep 5er prices low. OMG i can't afford a 5er i think i'll buy a 3er, thus 5ers and 7ers are now significantly cheaper than 3ers. Like I said nobody around here knows about BMW's, they think oh right it'll be so expensive to maintain, but you look at my car and a VT commodore, same price for services and same quality of car. but I won't loose 10k in depreciation and my car was cheaper....

[rob101]

And what's more. If you are a Holden fan you can wear the shirts, the cap, dress your kids up in Brock gear and all that stuff and noone cares. If you even SAY that you drive a BMW let alone wearing a shirt you are instantly branded a wanker. I hate that!
I am a wanker, so I don't really care what bogans think. I am one of those wankers who actually can afford a good car and can actually afford to live in a nice suburb, so I can do one of two things A. not give a stuff or B. move to europe lol:p

[stx133]

Aussie car prices are artificially high thanks to government tarrifs.. they also restrict the importing of seccond hand cars, keeping the price high of older cars. an e34 m5 is still around $40K here.. While in the states my friend bought a 98 audi a4 3.2 quattro for $4 (four thousand) still valued in aust at 30k+. the condition was not perfect but is was mechanicaly good. it is a reflaction on the market. aussies look after their "luxury" cars better (read use only dealer servicing and dont drive on salted roads) but expect them to hold value better. this is not the same for commonhores and falcons as these are used as fleet cars and expect to loose 50% over 3 years.

[F4Phantom]

I recently sold a 1989 subaru touring wagon with 330,000k's for just over 2k. I doubt the same car in the US would get $100. Thats ebay for you. Yeah over engineered, yeah in 1990 ford had just decided to use SINGLE POINT INJECTION, wow, that means (from what I know) they inject the fuel at one common point then it flows just like a carby into the cylinders. In 1990 ford were also making a lot of noise about their alloy heads which had come out a few years earlier. Holden had the VN which was "world class" ever since the VK (the VK was probably the worst car i have ever driven!). Holdens had this little badge in all thir cars saying RTS (radial tuned suspension), most of their cars wore this glued on badge from the gemini of the late 70's right up untill the VR/VS. Disk brakes were also all the rage and in the late 90's some of these cars even got IRS. In 1997 the 80k new statesman grange HSV (holden have HSV which is like the M series) had a wood grain interior, my mate (the same guy as the start of this post) had one and the wood grain was dog eared, you see holden thought it would be real la di da to have stickers as the wood grain, the quality was every bit 80k, I would say in every other market in the world since the beginning of cars sales, wood grain stickers over grey plastic would have gotten laughed out of the market, here we paid 80k for them. Basicly if you like driving your boat on the road with castor wheels stickytaped to the bottom, then you would love falcons and commomwhores (that is awesome, I am going to ask this guy how his is going). If you dont want any more than that, then BMW's could be considered over engineered.

[Randell]

haha radial tuned suspension, years ago a friend of mine had an 81 gemi with that crap, 'radial tuned' must mean 'tuned to understeer like a pig with no front legs'.. not to mention the 49kw engine that almost got me killed it was so fricken slow... that car should've just had a 'go' button, there was no point having a pedal because it didn't do anything!

holdens are crap and you don't even have to drive one to know... just shut the door, it will fall off in 6 out of 10 cases

[rob101]

yeah radial tuned suspension wasn't that bad, I know one time in the rain my friend with a VH commodore initiated some massive power oversteer on purpose, he caught it pretty easily and told me it was usually pretty stable in his experience. he wasn't really a big fan of commodore's, some friends of his suggested for him to do it up, he replied "ahhhhh no". he likes dattos and has a 1600 last i checked, now theres another good car. datto's are nice :p IRS and everything since the late 60's :D . lol no crossflow heads though

[632 Regal]

if we had a pictural comparison it would help...


pics and repost the thread.

[Zeuk in Oz]

I think there is a little bit more to this than has been discussed !

BMWs are designed by engineers to deliver a particular end product, which is actively marketed as "driving pleasure".

Whether or not that is achieved, a degree of design integrity is used which is lacking from many cars, particularly commodores. I will never forget almost 3 years ago when I bought my E34, I showed it to the owner of a (then) 2 year old Commodore SS (basic sports model) who just stood there opening and closing the drivers door raving about how the door closed with a slight thud, not a loud click !

Comparison of BMWs to lesser cars not in their price bracket when new is misleading. It is just our fortune that so many are concerned about maintaining and repairing them that they have now become relatively affordable.

Enjoy ! :D

[Zeuk in Oz]

if we had a pictural comparison it would help...


pics and repost the thread.
The Pontiac GTO is a Commodore coupe (2 door).

Enough said ?

[pundit]

A friend of mine was just given a 1994 VR Commodore Acclaim by her brother. I took it for a spin at the weekend. Now to be fair it has done about 360,000KMS but this car was voted Australian Car of the Year in 1994 and it just amazes me how we put up with absolute shite in this country. But then the JB Camira was also voted car of the year so it just proves that the judges were bribed and the motoring public must have had their collective heads up their collective arses to ever think that pile of festering wildebeest excreta...


http://www.getfreshpix.com/Photos/0LMNZ21/PN93NW3f33205T.jpg

...could ever be mistaken for a motorised commuter vehicle let alone car of the frikkin year!! :(

[wingman]

http://www.hsv.com.au/cars/vz/main.html

These are like the Holden //M cars. The Berlina mentioned in the thread is just a standard car optioned up.

[rob101]

A friend of mine was just given a 1994 VR Commodore Acclaim by her brother. I took it for a spin at the weekend. Now to be fair it has done about 360,000KMS but this car was voted Australian Car of the Year in 1994 and it just amazes me how we put up with absolute shite in this country. But then the JB Camira was also voted car of the year so it just proves that the judges were bribed and the motoring public must have had their collective heads up their collective arses to ever think that pile of festering wildebeest excreta...


http://www.getfreshpix.com/Photos/0LMNZ21/PN93NW3f33205T.jpg

...could ever be mistaken for a motorised commuter vehicle let alone car of the frikkin year!! :(
hehe, saw some bogan spec VP's driving around on the way home from work, to think they are the same vintage as my bimmer..... not to mention my 528i, I love that car so much i decided to keep it instead of selling it to my friend and see it leave the family. The student engineer at work was amazed when he found out a car older than me has electric mirrors, windows, trip computer, digital radio and mmmmmmm the leather they don't make them like that anymore. I think my dad who drives the 528i is starting to catch the bimmer nut bug, and traditionally he despises cars.

[BigKriss]

This thread is making me laugh, here's a review of the e34 535i vs the Holden SV5000

I'll just give you guys the links

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/4092/535vs5000page2large6ig.jpg
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/4655/535vs5000page3large4hb.jpg
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/5311/535vs5000page4large8ki.jpg
http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/5471/535vs5000page5large1ss.jpg
http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/7064/535vs5000page6large0hu.jpg

I hope the image quality is okay.

[rob101]

This thread is making me laugh, here's a review of the e34 535i vs the Holden SV5000

I'll just give you guys the links

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/4092/535vs5000page2large6ig.jpg
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/4655/535vs5000page3large4hb.jpg
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/5311/535vs5000page4large8ki.jpg
http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/5471/535vs5000page5large1ss.jpg
http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/7064/535vs5000page6large0hu.jpg

I hope the image quality is okay.
couldn't compare the M5 with the SV5000, that might be..........fair. can't have that, ~baby throws toys out of the cot~ lol thus from this mentality we ban GTR's and every other good race car from bathurst because they are too good and start the V8 supercar series.:D

[jbourke]

As a proud owner of an E34 who has lived in Australia for a number of years I have to respond to this thread!

In Oz you get a lot of native car for your dollar ... Try to buy a 4.0L six-cylinder car with lots of space and standard equipment in Europe (Holland) and you'll spent at least 3 times the relative amount.

Yes the beemer is a more "beautiful" car both in looks and from an engineering point of view. But I doubt it it's really that suitable for driving on less than excellent roads in scorching temps every day ... something that numerous Holden's and Ford's do for a living. They are the ones being more over-engineered from a structural point of view.

The E34 is amongst the best put together BMW's (get your local steeler drunk and ask him about the quality of more recent models) but in my opinion it's no match for current cheaper-range cars. I drive my father's basic GM product (Opel Omega) regularly and it performs better than my E34 in every department. No surprise considering the 12 year gap. I wouldn't swap for anything though ...

Cheers,

John

[mattyb]

yeh its all good for a couple of years but give it 5 years and thay are worth shite and they fall apart with 100k plus miles. what a ****in joke but its always predictable with ford/holden folk. probably mortgaged to the hilt and borrowed against his house to buy a piece of ozzie motoring **** histry that will be worth fuk all in 5 years. same as every other of the 500,000 berlina drivers out there will find out. they are great if they are a company car and you can get a new one every year apart from that it is just a bad joke. I bet peter brock has not been driving the same commondore for 10 years.lol

[genphreak]

yeh its all good for a couple of years but give it 5 years and thay are worth shite and they fall apart with 100k plus miles. what a ****in joke but its always predictable with ford/holden folk. probably mortgaged to the hilt and borrowed against his house to buy a piece of ozzie motoring **** histry that will be worth fuk all in 5 years. same as every other of the 500,000 berlina drivers out there will find out. they are great if they are a company car and you can get a new one every year apart from that it is just a bad joke. I bet peter brock has not been driving the same commondore for 10 years.lolHilarious stuff peeples... I can't add more, 'cept to say I heard one of Toyota Australia's previous Japanese VPs of marketing (just after resigning) say "What Australian's like is large, low-quality cars" and I think we all know he was right. I think he was the one responsible for sourcing Toyota's previous large car offering from GM ( was a re-badged 3.8L iron block, buick-engined commodore/omega called Lexcen) and after that they made Avalon's with old tooling from the US (as GM traditionally do with their engines).

Its funny how good (even) a Toyota looks against a GM or Ford after 10 years (which is practically the end of the lifespan Toyota gave it in the first place (and that's on the outside))... :) Nick

[jbourke]

[QUOTE=mattyb]yeh its all good for a couple of years but give it 5 years and thay are worth shite and they fall apart with 100k plus miles.

Sorry to disagree here mate ... I drove a 250K+ Falcon (arguably the most ugly wagon around) and it went like new. Compression test showed everything fine inside. BTW I didn't have a mortgage, I felt a moral duty to experience the Oz way ;-)

I guess it's like the old American iron, you either love or hate them ... but they are indestructable.

Cheers again,

John

[Alexlind123]

That picture of the SV5000 shows enough body roll to shame a double-decker bus with no anti roll bars.

[Zeuk in Oz]

Sorry to disagree here mate ... I drove a 250K+ Falcon (arguably the most ugly wagon around) and it went like new. Compression test showed everything fine inside.
The last Australian made car I owned was a 1987 Ford Falcon. I bought it new and then sold it at 123,000 km having been through 13 radiator hoses and it was a matter of fill up the oil and check the petrol.
That despite oil and filter changes every 5,000 km.
The dealer had no idea what was wrong with it. Shame we don't have lemon laws !
I then bought a Range Rover and didn't look back !:)

[genphreak]

Thing is, BMW has planned obsolecence too fellas. Clips, connectors, extensive use of plastics and custom switchgear- they are better than most, but it only buys us a few years grace really. The main difference I see is that everything is thought about more carefully and the function is (usually) well implemented.

For a manufacturer working on the bleeding edge, this is an amazing feat to acheive model after model.

The thing is that the bar raises every year, and even GM now make cars now that are far better than their previous attempts. The automotive quality stakes are raised by BMW, VW and Audi and everyone else then follows. The e34 is a great car, brilliant in its heyday and superb in its elder years, but you can sure spend a lot of money fixing one up. When one can get something like a new Golf GTi for only a little more total investment, it would be terribly economical, require no work, be fast as a flash and very nice to drive too...

OK I admit it... those GTi ads (http://www.adverblog.com/archives/cat_viral_marketing.htm) have kinda stuck with me... let me hear u say... vvvat?

[F4Phantom]

You can always find a good one in a bad bunch. The berlina originally talked about has since (in the first month of ownership) had new electric switches put in, and a rear window has stopped working. I went to the motor show and on the brand new top of the range statesman the doors are the same as the old VT doors, give them a nice slam and you will find the quality is by no means better than my E34. Sure in some areas the Cwhore may be better but not in many. Engines? another matter, change the oil on time and service any engine ever made and it will last a very long time. (except a russian military rotary engine) Then there is the ride quality and suspension dampening, I am sure like other aussies here, you see an all new falcon or all new commodore and think "gee maybe they really have got it right this time?" so you test one, realise it's the same old large thrashbox and 5 years later also realise the bumper is still falling off. I have been sucked into that thinking on a few models over the last 10 years. Basicly a falcon will never feel like a bmw. Last thing, when I was ridding my E30, I test drove a number of much newer jap and aussie cars, each time I got back into the BMW I wondered why I bothered as they were so poor in ride quality. That special glide cannot be replicated by 30k cars.

[rob101]

I must admit i am starting to think about leasing a VW as well, probably a diesel though, some of their top of the range cars look really good. For example the new Passat 2.0L turbo FSI, quick and fairly fuel economical. As far as commodores go i'll be right, but ford isn't too bad lately.
The biggest drawback in owning a bmw is like that tv ad for VW jetta where everyone changes their prices up when they see him drive up. But there are exceptions fortunately, and tools that rort you on basic work on bmws are what keeps prices down, so thank you for that crooked mechanic but i will take my bmw somewhere else!

[mamilapon]

You can always find a good one in a bad bunch. The berlina originally talked about has since (in the first month of ownership) had new electric switches put in, and a rear window has stopped working. I went to the motor show and on the brand new top of the range statesman the doors are the same as the old VT doors, give them a nice slam and you will find the quality is by no means better than my E34. Sure in some areas the Cwhore may be better but not in many. Engines? another matter, change the oil on time and service any engine ever made and it will last a very long time. (except a russian military rotary engine) Then there is the ride quality and suspension dampening, I am sure like other aussies here, you see an all new falcon or all new commodore and think "gee maybe they really have got it right this time?" so you test one, realise it's the same old large thrashbox and 5 years later also realise the bumper is still falling off. I have been sucked into that thinking on a few models over the last 10 years. Basicly a falcon will never feel like a bmw. Last thing, when I was ridding my E30, I test drove a number of much newer jap and aussie cars, each time I got back into the BMW I wondered why I bothered as they were so poor in ride quality. That special glide cannot be replicated by 30k cars.
I've got both. a 1990 E34 535i and a '92 VP Wagon that I use for work. Chalk and cheese!

[Rustam]

Does anyone know those car enthusiasts who think cheap low priced crappy cars are better quality than good cars? My mate just got a holden berlina which is a base model commore + climate and a few other incidentals. Has an American 5.7L v8 with 220kw. He honestly recons its the best bar ever made. Which is fine except he also recons the quality is better than my BMW. I went for a drive, it has lots of power. The cheap switches are all out of alignment and creaking, ride was woefull. When I called it a commodore he said it was not, it's a berlina. I keep saying it's really not a fair comparison because his car was 40k new and mine was 120k new, it's a different ball park, he wont have it, always wants to draw direct comparisons where the commodore comes out on top (most comparisons evolve around his car being faster). The old VN thread a week or more ago I passed to him and he actually defended the VN and said it was faster than my car (VN has 130kw). I said mate, the BMW 2.5L has 10 more kw than the VN 3.8L. Anyway, this is one of these people we all know who will defend his crap to the hilt in the face of overwhelming evidence. It is frustrating after a while especially as he is usually the one to kick start the topic. I have had a lot of cars in the last decade including a WRX which handle well and are fast but I never thought it was good quality. My BMW is the best car I have ever driven bar a late 911. I have driven every commore out there and the all suck. (sorry any aussies who own a commodore as more than half the population do)

Take him to a twisty road and kick his butt... what is his top speed ? that american v8 is good as a truck engine, not as something that can provide big rpm and great top speed. These engines have a lot of torque - thats what makes them fast from the start, but they suck when it comes to turning at higher rpm - they pull very hardly at higher band. What is the redline on that engine? probably not as high as yours...

Forget arguing with this guy - everything in a car to him revolves around the notion of "power", handling, suspension, independent suspensuion to him mean zero - he is from totally different planet where all they respect is "metallic beef" of the engine.

Your BMW engine can go up to 300K-400K miles, his engine will crack 4 times before going up to that level (if it does - I have never seen american v8 with so many miles)...

[Zeuk in Oz]

OK I admit it... those GTi ads (http://www.adverblog.com/archives/cat_viral_marketing.htm) have kinda stuck with me... let me hear u say... vvvat?
I do wish they had used another actor - no matter what comes out of his mouth I still hear "Russian Grim Reaper". :D