B.I. Official e34 lowering, new suspension, wheels, and thrust arms!

[HDhandyman]

OK new guys, so you read all the stuff about upgraded suspension, wheels, lowering springs, upper and lower control arms, & 750 il bushings, but you still don't know what the hell Billsteins, H&R, Sachs, Lemforder, or M parralels are? Well, this is the thread for you!

I'm a new guy too, and a few weeks ago I decided to undertake this project. I wasn't sure if I could do it. But, after consulting some of the seniors here, they encouraged me to undertake this project. There is a lot of info on all of this stuff already, but I decided that it might be nice to take the next few weeks and build a thread about this stuff with really nice photo documentation and dummies questions answered. So, here goes....

P.S. I'm just gonna update this every few days as I have time. Everyone please feel free to chime in and offer expert advice. Still, my goal here is the completed tutorial so you can just consider this thread under construction for the next few weeks. And thanks for everyone's help!

OH YEAH, NEW GUYS! DON'T BE AFFRAID TO ASK DUMMIE QUESTIONS WHILE WE CREATE THIS FORUM OR THEY WON'T BE ANSWERED FOR FUTURE GENERATION E34 WRENCHERS.

First things first, I had to clean the garage and build some new shelves to get some of the crap out of the way

http://img361.imageshack.us/img361/3008/g45si.jpg
http://img361.imageshack.us/img361/4953/g19gk.jpg
http://img361.imageshack.us/img361/2341/g22ie.jpg
http://img361.imageshack.us/img361/7405/g36xg.jpg

next step...figuring out what we want, why we want it, and how to get it.
upcoming photo documentation...tools

[kyleN20]

we fighting fire with fire here zeuk? i think if its not cool the first time, its just as bad the second time.

[HDhandyman]

I've already removed that post, tried to reasure everyone that I wasn't diliberately attacking anyone, and posted a response across two threads (which is due to thread chasing--like this.) about the subject at hand. I'm trying to do a good thing here. Yet here we are...already bogged down by idle conversation. Please don't start like this. If you're furious with me, then send me a PM and deal with me directly. Once again, I appologize. This is my last appology. Let's get back to working on cars.

P.S. The best thing (as I have learned) would be for you to just delete those posts. I'm happy to do the same, once they are gone. It will help to maintain the integrity of this thread and let us all move on. This is the best I can do.

[Kobe Diesel]

Let's get back to working on cars.

I agree. An interesting thread. Ignore the distractions and please keep your momentum.

[dacoyote]

Everyone grow up.. don't make me come back there...

[McWatters]

Wow wheres the love, anyway Handy man great idea keep at it looks pretty sweet so far!

cheers

J.McWatters

[Evan]

this thread is a great idea. i cant decide whether to sell my 540 or upgrade the suspension so im looking forward to reading about your experience. as for the drama...

[hakwuzhere]

Im about to go through the same thing... ordering Vogtlands and Koni adjustables... Ill try to document my progress here as well....

PO did a full suspension overhaul about two years before I bought the car, and it sat in his garage for the greater portion of that, so Im not doing thrust arms or anything (unless it looks really bad in there)

[HDhandyman]

OK, so a little history on why I'm doing this.

Initially, I was only just becoming educated about the potential for problems while I was pursuing another project. My 525i is an automatic and I wanted to look into converting it to a 5 speed. So, I contacted Whit (Lowell) because he is one of the finest minds on the forum, and his garage specializes in "said" conversions. Upon his advice, I contacted a certain gentleman who was more than willing to put everything together for me and even consign my old auto Getrag transmission. Bottom line, the total quoted to me was right around $1300.00 after consignment which is almost exactly the total we are looking at for this project, guys (wheels and tools not included). Ultimately, I discovered that I would rather own an old e28 5 speed (just for fun) than mess up a good thing with the car I've got. I'm still on the hunt for that perfect e28.

So, I decided to take my car to the wheel and brake Indy to find out what the state of my current (stock) suspension was, and what it would cost me for upgrades. Bottom line, they are excellent "nationally recognized" mechanics, but no way can I let myself pay the $3600.00 they quoted me with all of the above (suspension and wheel upgrades). However, I was more than willing to pay the $20.00 they charged me for a complete assesment of my car's current state of affairs. Found out that I need new thrust arms (upper and lower control arms), bushings, springs, shocks, and I already know that my tires are bald. So guys, going to the wheel and brake Indy for an estimate is an excellent way to get this project started because if you're like me, you don't wanna miss the stuff that you are supposed to fix while we're making upgrades. In fact, real maintanence is the catylyst for this whole project.

Parts--ask anybody on the forum, there's only one place to go, BMA...
http://www.bmaparts.com/
This place does more business in quality parts than anybody else, so they can afford to provide goods at a cheaper rate, plain and simple. The best thing to do is to call BMA and ask for Patrick or Yves (brothers) because they carrier many more parts than those listed on their website and offer expert advice about E34 parts and service.

What we want--well, we know that we need new control arms( upper and lower), these belong to the front suspension. And we know that we need new bushings...here comes an upgrade--this is where the 750 bushings come in. You can now get new control arms with the 750 bushings already pressed in, for cheap.

control arms
http://catimages2.sophio.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/imc/images/tn/31121131587.jpg
$85.00 ea. to be exact. PART #s BMW017988 and BMW017989

So, we'll pick up two of those, one for each side, and we'll pick up a set of the upper thrust arms (with 750's pressed) as well.
http://catimages2.sophio.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/imc/images/tn/31121141097.jpg
$99.00 ea. to be exact. PART #s BMW017990 and BMW017991

The bottom pic doesn't show the 750il bushings pressed in to the upper control (thrust) arms, but they will come that way if you order the part number specified from BMA. You may want to read ahead a couple of posts for a debate on whether or not the 750 il's are for you!

Now, our total so far is $400.00. It's important to point out here that these prices are for OEM Lemfoerder parts. Please be sure to use Lemfoerder parts, or you'll have to do this every year.

Next time in the "What we want, why we want it, and where to get it? Photos=tools" section I'll discuss my options for shocks, strutts, and lowering springs, and we'll sort out our Billsteins from our Konis (Sachs too), and our Eibachs from our H&Rs!

[Scott H]

last time I checked they were about $115/each with the bushing pressed in, and it's been documented that the E34 M5 bushing is more durable than the 750 bushings.....this brings the upper arm price to ~$130/ea with the bushing pressed in

[HDhandyman]

last time I checked they were about $115/each with the bushing pressed in, and it's been documented that the E34 M5 bushing is more durable than the 750 bushings.....this brings the upper arm price to ~$130/ea with the bushing pressed in

Here's the mail.

Yves Bright
<yves@bmaparts.com>to me
More options Feb 13
Hello Steven,

Per our conversation, here are the prices for the suspension parts.

Thrust arms - $99.00 each Lemfoerder arms with 750il bushings pressed in
Control arms - $85.00 each Lemfoerder
Sway bar links - $21.00 each
Idler arm - $35.00

Looks like I mixed them up. Still, the price total is the same. I've edited "said" post. What's up with the M5 bushings? Give us a link, Scott!

[Jon K]

I was invited here by HDhandyman to talk about control arm bushings.

I had originally installed upper and lower control arm bushings (new arms) with 750i bushings (new) from BMA Autoparts. The setup seemed to alleviate 90% of my shimmy issue but there still remained a little bit of shimmy. I replaced a couple of my tie rod ends and it went away mostly.

Less than 10,000 miles later I had decent shimmy again at 65 mph. I had originally followed the installation procedure of setting the car on the ground and torquing the bushings to the spec. However, I was sort of frustrated with that theory and the whole installation process annoyed me. I decided enough was enough and ordered the Grunt's Polyurethane control arm bushings. Because these are for the upper control arms (to replace 750i bushings) I was able to use a special BMW tool to press the old bushings out and new bushings in while the control arm was still attached to the car. This made the job 10x easier and only took about 45 mins to do the bushings.

http://e34.digital7.com/bushings.jpg

I think that was around 140,000 miles on the odometer and I am now at 184,000. I have ZERO shimmy issues - the front is very solid and very well connected. When you get up above speed limit speeds... lets say 65+ ;) you can sometimes feel a slight "roughness" or minute vibration - but this is from the bushings being solid and not due to failure or anything like the shimmy experienced with 750i bushings. Some people suggest that M5 bushings are more solid than 750 bushings but quitely honestly I love that the Grunt bushings have no bizarre torque scheme (loading the car etc). You just torque until they're tight, i'd say 80ft lbs or so. Put the car on the ground - drive home. They provide great feel of the road and the handling is not too harsh - my car is on 17" wheels (235/45 front 38 psi) and 3mm M5 spring pads along with the polyurethane bushings and it's not very harsh IMHO.


Here is a picture of the contraption I made in order to get the ball joint end out of the strut base. The tool used to press the bushings on the car allowed me to never have to do this again!

http://e34.digital7.com/BMW%20Work/DSCN0578.JPG

[Scott H]

only countless posts about them....along with most other things related to suspension.

Last I paid $130 for lemforder arms with M5 bushings......two months ago.



Thrust arms - $99.00 each Lemfoerder arms with 750il bushings pressed in

What's up with the M5 bushings? Give us a link, Scott!

[Scott H]

early. The M5 bushings should last longer than the 750 bushings....


I was invited here by HDhandyman to talk about control arm bushings.

[Anthony (M5 in Calgary)]

[QUOTE=Jon K]and 3mm M5 spring pads

M5 has 9mm upper spring pads as standard. 3mm pads are from a different model and cross to E30, E34 and E36 cars. The part number is not handy or I'd post it.

Good thread, keep it up.

Cheers

[Scott H]

31 33 1 128 523

Find E32/E34 with EDC or M-tech suspn options in the ETK and you will find it.


and 3mm M5 spring pads

M5 has 9mm upper spring pads as standard. 3mm pads are from a different model and cross to E30, E34 and E36 cars. The part number is not handy or I'd post it.

Good thread, keep it up.

Cheers

[califblue]

here is an old post:
4 1/2 hrs and installed the following: Sachs kit, M-Tech sways , upper control arms & dog-bones... Need a floor jack , jack stands, spring compresser ( borrowed from Auto Zone) I had air tools but you can do it manually

http://www.bimmer.info/forum/showthread.php?t=1227

[HDhandyman]

Special thanks to Jon K. for an excellent post with great photo documentation!

Scott, we would all bennefit greatly from a "link" to one of those "many" posts about the E34 M5 bushings. The whole point of this thread is to put everything together. If you have something to say about a topic that is documented, then please help us by providing that documentation. My hope is that other new guys like me will be able to sit down and read this thread in it's entirety and get all the answers to the upgrades, as well as POV about debates between what components are best to use. If you can give us something tangeble about the E34 M5's, people will have the ability to make a choice between 750ils, Polys, and E34 M5s, and feel good about it.

Thanks again,

[billb]

Special thanks to Jon K. for an excellent post with great photo documentation!

Scott, we would all bennefit greatly from a "link" to one of those "many" posts about the E34 M5 bushings. The whole point of this thread is to put everything together. If you have something to say about a topic that is documented, then please help us by providing that documentation. My hope is that other new guys like me will be able to sit down and read this thread in it's entirety and get all the answers to the upgrades, as well as POV about debates between what components are best to use. If you can give us something tangeble about the E34 M5's, people will have the ability to make a choice between 750ils, Polys, and E34 M5s, and feel good about it.

Thanks again,

...I don't think there's going to be ONE thread with ALL the answers to all the upgrades. That's why we started the archived sections, then had to ease up on that process so folks wouldn't miss "active" posts. My suggestion for all these questions is to begin looking through "archived" posts relative to the question at hand. I am the "assigned archiver" for suspension and steering. I'd suggest you go look in that archive, as I did a search for most everything "suspension" or "steering" that was over 1 year old back in November and began putting it in there. As you identify things that I've missed, pm the link to me and I'll archive 'em.

[Scott H]

I'm not going to resource, reinvent, and summarize 100 other posts that winfred, myself, brandon j, etc, etc have made about M5 bushings. Also go to mye28.com and roadfly to find plenty of posts where urethane bushings have been destroyed or lasted many fewer miles than many had hoped.

My post here is tangible enough regarding the M5 bushings. If I was interested in forcing my opinion on other people re: the M5 bushings, I would go hunt up other threads and cite them endlessly. I'm merely putting it out there to chew on when you think about what you are going to purchase.

I agree with Bill B. in that these has been way too much info on suspension posted and hosted here and on other websites in the past. No determination will be made as to the best setup for any particular car. Other factors will ultimately drive someones decision on what to purchase, those being, price, availability, misinformation, cosmetic effects, etc. You can talk until you are blue in the face about getting lemforder components, but there will always be someone out there who will insist on buying an inferior part.

Forgive me for sounding harsh, but I believe there is enough information out there on this topic and I personally am not motivated to do much hunting and linking on the topic of M5 bushings.

Regards
Scott


Scott, we would all bennefit greatly from a "link" to one of those "many" posts about the E34 M5 bushings. The whole point of this thread is to put everything together. If you have something to say about a topic that is documented, then please help us by providing that documentation. My hope is that other new guys like me will be able to sit down and read this thread in it's entirety and get all the answers to the upgrades, as well as POV about debates between what components are best to use. If you can give us something tangeble about the E34 M5's, people will have the ability to make a choice between 750ils, Polys, and E34 M5s, and feel good about it.

Thanks again,

[HDhandyman]

...I don't think there's going to be ONE thread with ALL the answers to all the upgrades. That's why we started the archived sections, then had to ease up on that process so folks wouldn't miss "active" posts. My suggestion for all these questions is to begin looking through "archived" posts relative to the question at hand. I am the "assigned archiver" for suspension and steering. I'd suggest you go look in that archive, as I did a search for most everything "suspension" or "steering" that was over 1 year old back in November and began putting it in there. As you identify things that I've missed, pm the link to me and I'll archive 'em.

Thanks Bill. You're right, we won't be able to answer all the questions here, but we can try to answer as many as possible. All I'm saying is, if you chime in here with a POV about a parts or process debate, chances are you've already participated in another conversation about it. At that point, you (or whoever is speaking about it) probably have a better idea about where to locate that conversation than a new guy stumbling through the archives--they can be a bear to use even divided up into sections. Please take the extra 5 min. to locate that conversation and give us a link to it. This way, hopefully, we'll be able to get Jeff to post this thread in the New Guy section once we're done and then new guys can get an intro to the archives via this thread.

Thanks,
Stephen

[mattyb]

well put scott. HD is not aware I think of where this is going.

[Jon K]

I agree with everyone but I'd like to throw something else out there. No one seems to mention variables in peoples suspension. My poly bushings are lasting great - had the car up on a lift just last week for inspection and my poly urethane control arm bushings and polyurethane transmission mounts are in top shape. However, someone could have a bad casting, or their suspension could have some other minute flaw that will literally eat components away. I think this thread can serve as a good collection of input, but there are infinite variables as to why someone might have an issue with a selected component. My poor 750i experience could have been installation error - though i followed the instructions to the T and I consider myself mechnically inclined. All I am saying here is that the Grunt bushings, @ ~$80 are great because they've lasted ME over 50,000 miles now with no issues, they require no special torque/load, they have no rubber center to wear out.

I invited Steve Haygood, the North America distributor of Grunt Bushings to come in here and see if he can clear anything up on urethane bushings - we'll see.

[Scott H]

You can shout specs, rubber durometer/stiffness, urethane make-up, each's ability to stand up to outside elements like water and heat cycling, but in practice people experience different things for different reasons. Ultimately the line on urethane vs steel vs M5 vs 750 can barely be drawn.....in the sand.

Someone could purchase M5 bushings on our recommendation, forget to preload them, and go to the track 3 times next summer only to drive home with a shimmy a total of 15,000 miles later. He will inevitably get on a messageboard somewhere and spew disgust for M5 bushings without giving people the whole picture. Same thing can happen to 750 bushings.

Urethane bushings do not need to be preloaded but are stiffer. Someone wanting to maintain a plush ride might get them thinking they will last forever and in turn find out they are transmitting additional vibrations through the subframe/chassis that are unwanted.

People have their options, the consequences of each have been noted in the past......they should search here and bmwe34.net and decide for themselves.


I invited Steve Haygood, the North America distributor of Grunt Bushings to come in here and see if he can clear anything up on urethane bushings - we'll see.

[Bill R.]

old math but i wish my bank account multiplied the way that your mileage does... You state here that they have lasted 50k miles but a few months back when you did your review for the Paul Gray bushings, or as they are now known Grunt bushings, you stated there that you changed them at 176k miles and your now at 184k miles... with my old math skills that only comes out to 8k miles on the grunts... you tell me? Here's a link to your first Grunt review about 6 months ago (http://www.bimmer.info/forum/showthread.php?t=12359&)





I agree with everyone but I'd like to throw something else out there. No one seems to mention variables in peoples suspension. My poly bushings are lasting great - had the car up on a lift just last week for inspection and my poly urethane control arm bushings and polyurethane transmission mounts are in top shape. However, someone could have a bad casting, or their suspension could have some other minute flaw that will literally eat components away. I think this thread can serve as a good collection of input, but there are infinite variables as to why someone might have an issue with a selected component. My poor 750i experience could have been installation error - though i followed the instructions to the T and I consider myself mechnically inclined. All I am saying here is that the Grunt bushings, @ ~$80 are great because they've lasted ME over 50,000 miles now with no issues, they require no special torque/load, they have no rubber center to wear out.

I invited Steve Haygood, the North America distributor of Grunt Bushings to come in here and see if he can clear anything up on urethane bushings - we'll see.

[BillyT]

More please!!!



OK new guys, so you read all the stuff about upgraded suspension, wheels, lowering springs, upper and lower control arms, & 750 il bushings, but you still don't know what the hell Billsteins, H&R, Sachs, Lemforder, or M parralels are? Well, this is the thread for you!

I'm a new guy too, and a few weeks ago I decided to undertake this project. I wasn't sure if I could do it. But, after consulting some of the seniors here, they encouraged me to undertake this project. There is a lot of info on all of this stuff already, but I decided that it might be nice to take the next few weeks and build a thread about this stuff with really nice photo documentation and dummies questions answered. So, here goes....

P.S. I'm just gonna update this every few days as I have time. Everyone please feel free to chime in and offer expert advice. Still, my goal here is the completed tutorial so you can just consider this thread under construction for the next few weeks. And thanks for everyone's help!

OH YEAH, NEW GUYS! DON'T BE AFFRAID TO ASK DUMMIE QUESTIONS WHILE WE CREATE THIS FORUM OR THEY WON'T BE ANSWERED FOR FUTURE GENERATION E34 WRENCHERS.

First things first, I had to clean the garage and build some new shelves to get some of the crap out of the way

http://img361.imageshack.us/img361/3008/g45si.jpg
http://img361.imageshack.us/img361/4953/g19gk.jpg
http://img361.imageshack.us/img361/2341/g22ie.jpg
http://img361.imageshack.us/img361/7405/g36xg.jpg

next step...figuring out what we want, why we want it, and how to get it.
upcoming photo documentation...tools

[88m53453]

Hi folks, I'm Steve Haygood , purveyor of Grunts bushings and about every other part that fits on BMW's( and every other import car as well) Thanks for asking me to join in,but I think the subject as been pretty well talked over. Of 100 customers that call me and ask for arms and or bushings. 80 will ask for Lemforder arms, 10 will ask for Meyle and 10 don't care as long as it is quality. Of those 100, 60 ask for Grunts and 30 will ask for 750iL and the final 10 will ask for e34 M5. I've been in the parts business for 20 years now and I've pretty much seen it all, Most times failures are due to 1 of 2 things, the heat shield not protecting the upper right bushings or improper installs. My own M5 had 750iL bushings for over 50,000 miles with ZERO sign of failure when I replaced them just because the ball joint boots were ripped, Joints were still good as were the bushings.

[88m53453]

Hi folks, I'm Steve Haygood , purveyor of Grunts bushings and about every other part that fits on BMW's( and every other import car as well) Thanks for asking me to join in,but I think the subject as been pretty well talked over. Of 100 customers that call me and ask for arms and or bushings. 80 will ask for Lemforder arms, 10 will ask for Meyle and 10 don't care as long as it is quality. Of those 100, 60 ask for Grunts and 30 will ask for 750iL and the final 10 will ask for e34 M5. I've been in the parts business for 20 years now and I've pretty much seen it all, Most times failures are due to 1 of 2 things, the heat shield not protecting the upper right bushings or improper installs. My own M5 had 750iL bushings for over 50,000 miles with ZERO sign of failure when I replaced them just because the ball joint boots were ripped, Joints were still good as were the bushings.

[Gayle]

I know nothing about the topic at hand, but I think this is a really cool idea. This is sort of like when Jon shared the megasquirt project except everyone gets to put their .02 in. Jeff has been trying to get threads that pull together issues for newbies who know nothing about maintaining an e34. This thread can further that goal. Some people have said "why bother since so much is on Bruno's site" but I like the idea of comprehensive discussions of issues being here on this site. I haven't seen many threads here that have the kind of debate that is occuring in this thread. I applaud you HDhandyman for trying this.

We have just gone through a couple of argumentative phases on the forum and I was a part of them. I am trying to be better and ask others to join me. I would encourage us all to try to return to civility and politeness and act with the maturity this board is known for.

And Jon, thanks for your contribution to this thread. You always have such great explanations and pictures. And Bill R. --thanks for doing your typically great job of insuring accuracy.

[Anton CH.]

Do the polyurethane bushings need to be lubed every once in a while like the ones on RD sway bars?

[HDhandyman]

OK guys, time for a late night installment.

Again we're dealing with front end suspension at the moment. We've heared from our panel of experts, even the distributor himself, and it looks like the choice is totally up to you on bushings. Time for you to make your decision and me to move on.

So, there's a couple more things that we're gonna need in terms of front end suspension, the first of which are Sway Bar Links. Again, Lemfoerder would be best, but do what ya gotta do. These little buggers make a faint click sound when you go over bumps and they're fairly cheap to replace while we're down there. Next is the idler arm; I don't need one, but you could replace it during this install if your Indy said "looks bad", you have more miles than me, or you just wanna spend the money.

Here's a snapshot from the Bentley manual...

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/5258/frontsuspension9tc.jpg

OK, my current total is $450.00, and it's time for me to start thinking about struts, shocks, and springs. There are several options for me to choose from. BMA carries almost all of them. Amoung those, some of the preffered leaders apear to be Billstein (strut and shock towers), Koni (strut and shock towers) which are adjustable, Eibach (lowering springs applicable for the front and the back), H&R (lowering springs applicable for the front and the back), and Sachs (a German engineered combo of strut and shock towers, and lowering springs. Their most inherrent value is the fact that all eight major components are designed to work together. Unlike other "sweet" combos between strut/shock and spring, these probably put less stress on other suspension related components due to the nature of shared design.) These are only a few of the available options. Do the research and talk to the perveor about which combo is right for you.

My first instinct tells me to go with the Sachs. I've read several positive testimonials about them from members of this board, I like the fact that all the strut/spring compenents come in the kit, and I like the idea that these components are designed to work together. Unfortunately BMA, the largest distrubutor of Sachs in the continental US, is out of them at the moment. BMA was expecting a shipment of Sachs to arrive in DEC/2005, but they were ultimately told by the German manufactuer that the old design had been discontinued and that a "new and improved" design of the hugely successful first product would be shipped to them in March. I don't know if I can wait until "sometime" in March since I need to make repairs, so I've asked Yves to provide me with additional quotes for some of the "sweet" combos listed above.

Here's the mail...

Yves Bright
<yves@bmaparts.com>to me
More options Feb 13
Hello Steven,

Per our conversation, here are the prices for the suspension parts.

Bilstein Sports with H & R springs - $746.00

or

Koni with H & R springs - $913.00

Let me know if you have any questions or would like to place an order.

Yves Bright
www.bmaparts.com
(888) 262-3911


That about wraps it up in terms of shopping for suspension related parts for me. I'll let you know next time what I decided about parts selection and how much it cost me. For now, here are a few photos of some of the tools I'm gonna need for this job!

A torque wrench is absolutely essential, not just for this job, for lots of em. I got this one at Harbor Freight Tools on sale for $18.00 last weekend. It's not a Snap-On, but it's cheap and it's gonna suit my needs plenty well. Get what you want. Remember that 80ft./lbs. that Jon K. talked about applying to the polyurethane bushings? This is what I need.
http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/1083/g68xp.jpg

Forced air is a luxury that I learned I couldn't do without some time ago! This is an air compressor (blue). You can see that it sits next to a smaller (red) air compressor. The red one travels with me if somebody in the family gets a flat, or I just need air--the motor is no longer functioning, so it can only be filled with air by using another air compressor. The blue boy is the big guns that powers the air wrench and many other tools (attachments). I think I got this one at Harbor Freight for $220.00.

http://img361.imageshack.us/img361/6303/g50tm.jpg


In this photo, you can see the air wrench (looks like a silver gun) attached to a yellow hose, and ultimately the air compressor. This thing isn't nessecary, but it will make parts of this job tremendously easier. Next to it, you can see two jack stands (these are truck/suv rated for 6,000lbs. I'm not taking any chances) and two Rhino ramps. Again, the ramps are truck/suv rated for 6,000 lbs. I could just use four jack stands, but I like being able to just back the car up onto the ramps and check out the rear end from time to time. They also make it a lot easier for me to remove the enigne from the VW Bug, since the engine is in the back and has to be removed by jacking it out from underneath the car. Also in the photo, one of my hydraulic jacks (green).

http://img361.imageshack.us/img361/7405/g36xg.jpg


Next time, I'll talk More Tools, More Photos, New Wheels, and New Tires!

[liquidtiger720]

Minor correction. The sachs kit does not come assembled.

[HDhandyman]

Minor correction. The sachs kit does not come assembled.

Yves just told me they would be shipped as a complete strut assembly. Am I wrong? Has something changed?

[BigKriss]

Stephen, I'll chime in here if I may. I think you have the terminology wrong on the word "strut". The strut is the device that holds the shock and spring in place. I've never heard of someone replacing it unless it's been bent in an accident, but I've heard of deliberately bending this baby to give you more camber on the front wheels.

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/3051/strut9az.png

Being a devils advocate here. Why go for lowered springs anyway? The camber at the rear will be increase (more negative camber) causing the inside of the tyres to wear faster which can only be fixed by rotating the tyres more often which will have to come off the wheels or install eccentric bushings in the trailing arms which is very time consuming job. What are you doing for strut mounts at the front?

Also with a lowered front spring, it maybe so low that you cannot get your floor jack under the front crossmember when jacking up the car (thats what happened to me). Not a major deal just a bit annoying since I drive onto bricks first.

As for the thrust arm bushings, I think Scott H is right, the m5 ones are the ones to get. I asked about this on here with limited responses (I was curious also).
http://www.bimmer.info/forum/showthread.php?t=17705
The reason being, your going to upgrage the bush from normal to 750i, so why stop in the middle ground?

For best performance get some spherical bearings to replace the rubber on both control arms (upper and lower). Bruno is reported to be making sets recently.
http://www.bimmer.info/forum/showthread.php?t=18650&highlight=thrust+arm

I use these;
http://www.bimmer.info/forum/showthread.php?t=17506&highlight=RRT+thrust+arms

and the e31 lower control arms are a direct swap
http://www.bimmer.info/forum/showthread.php?t=18646&highlight=RRT+thrust+arms

Maybe this article can also state that you can't have your cake and eat it also. Meaning any upgrade that contributes to a "more sportier feel" or stiffer ride will contribute to an increase in noise, vechile, harshness. You will feel more bumps in the road and it won't be as comfortable to ride on. I'm going to finish this off and get out of here; what are you doing for swaybars?

[HDhandyman]

Stephen, I'll chime in here if I may. I think you have the terminology wrong on the word "strut". The strut is the device that holds the shock and spring in place. I've never heard of someone replacing it unless it's been bent in an accident, but I've heard of deliberately bending this baby to give you more camber on the front wheels.

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/3051/strut9az.png

Being a devils advocate here. Why go for lowered springs anyway? The camber at the rear will be increase (more negative camber) causing the inside of the tyres to wear faster which can only be fixed by rotating the tyres more often which will have to come off the wheels or install eccentric bushings in the trailing arms which is very time consuming job. What are you doing for strut mounts at the front?

Also with a lowered front spring, it maybe so long that you cannot get your floor jack under the front crossmember when jacking up the car (thats what happened to me). Not a major deal just a bit annoying.

As for the thrust arm bushings, I think Scott H is right, the m5 ones are the ones to get. I asked about this on here with limited responses (I was curious also).

http://www.bimmer.info/forum/showthread.php?t=17705

The reason being, your going to upgrage the bush from normal to 750i, so why stop in the middle ground?

Maybe this article can also state that you can't have your cake and eat it also. Meaning any upgrade that contributes to a "more sportier feel" or stiffer ride will contribute to an increase in noise, vechile, harshness. You will feel more bumps in the road and it won't be as comfortable to ride on. I'm going to finish this off and get out of here; what are you doing for swaybars?

Thanks BigKriss. Like I said, I'm a new guy here as well. So, thanks for the strut info and words on lowering springs. I don't know what to do about sway bars, what should I do? Why don't you tell us about why you did what you did to your car, and do you know other options for people who don't want to lose that cushy ride? I noticed that cool track video that you have--are all your mods for track time?

Thanks, again!

[BigKriss]

Sorry mate, I added a bit more information in there. I'm setting up the car to be as stiff as possible. I will take any tradeoff in comfort for an increase concering speed. Of course the car can get uncomfortable over harsh roads but I've lived with it so far even though 99.9999+% of my driving is on the street. It also depends on how you want the car to handle, I mean understeer or oversteer. I only upgraded the front swaybar becasue I thought the rear one would be too hard to install myself - I was wrong. Understeer (losing grip on the front wheels) is a lot easier to control than oversteer.

I e-mailed Brett Anderson from Koala Motorsports a along time ago, he suggested to leave the front bar (23mm) as is and replace the rear bar with one from the e34 3.8L touring? (20mm and largest OEM available), which is slightly over us$100 from BMA. I would imagine this setup to give you some controllable oversteer at wide open throttle, but I can't say from experience.

You will find the largest swaybars around made by manufacturers in the USA and anywhere worldwide are 27mm for the front and 20mm on the rear. Adjustable ones are good becasue you can then fine tune the handling characteristics of the car. Personally I'll evenutally get a 22mm adjustable rear custom made one made by Whiteline in Australia, were my front bar comes from. This will mean a +2mm (front and rear increase over the larqest OEM bars). Most of the swaybar bushes with aftermarket bars are polyurethane and have to be lubed occasionally (with special paste provided) or else they squeak but I haven't experience this yet.

If you don't want to lose that cushy ride, stick with OEM stock everything, but I would still install the m5 thrust arm bushes because worn thrust arm bushes are a major complaint of the dreaded 50-60 shimmy!

[Scott H]

the strut housing is what holds it


Stephen, I'll chime in here if I may. I think you have the terminology wrong on the word "strut". The strut is the device that holds the shock and spring in place. I've never heard of someone replacing it unless it's been bent in an accident, but I've heard of deliberately bending this baby to give you more camber on the front wheels.

[Scott H]

necessary to do the job (4 springs, 2 struts, 2 shocks, short bump stops, strut retaining collars) but nothing is assembled. The springs are Eibach and the boge turbo gas sport shocks are custom valved for the spring they are applied to. The sachs kit is stiff and still puts plenty of stress on other parts.


Yves just told me they would be shipped as a complete strut assembly. Am I wrong? Has something changed?

[BigKriss]

Scott, I always thought the picture what I showed was the strut, item 1 and the shock absorber goes inside that.


the strut housing is what holds it

[88m53453]

Handyman,
BMW is the US's biggest Sachs distributor in the US ? Really ? I would think that IMC and WP both are much larger.

I've never seen the e34 strut assembly come complete in over 20 years of BMW professional wrenching, unless it was assembled by a retailer or bought from a junkyard.

Koni's rule IMO, just more money,but that doesn't seem to be the issue here

[Scott H]

the front is called a strut when it's an insert type with spring surrounding it, and it acts as a rotational point for the steering

the rear is called a shock because it is fixed and bolted to the rear trailing arm


Scott, I always thought the picture what I showed was the strut, item 1 and the shock absorber goes inside that.

[Bill R.]

:) The strut refers to the type of front suspension which is a macpherson strut design which basically means that strut/shock/spring assembly replaces what would have been a upper control arm and shock assy. This macpherson strut becomes an integral part of the front end. A number of cars have started using this setup due to costs,weight savings, simplicity, the term strut refers to the whole unit, the strut insert is what you used to think of as a shock absorber. These can come as an insert which goes inside the strut assy. or they can come as a complete strut unit , housing and shock all one piece, you can't take this type apart and replace the shock insert you have to replace the whole unit. Many cars are this way, the bmw's have a replaceable insert in them Wikipedia has a somewhat accurate description here of the macpherson strut front end (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacPherson_strut)

The rear suspension is also a mcpherson strut type , only its a called a chapman strut, Colin Chapman of lotus fame, mr. cheap and light himself came up with this modification of the macpherson strut for the front and adapted it to the rear suspension of his cars. Technically these are still called inserts on the rears and its still a strut type suspension since its acts as a member of the entire suspension not just as a shock absorber.

These mcpherson and chapman struts were all intended as cheaper lighter more cost effective replacements for the traditional double wishbone suspension that most of your exotics still use such as the corvette and ferrari's.




the front is called a strut when it's an insert type with spring surrounding it, and it acts as a rotational point for the steering

the rear is called a shock because it is fixed and bolted to the rear trailing arm

[Anthony (M5 in Calgary)]

Also, the shock absorber is properly called a damper. The spring is what absorbs the shock, the damper controls its oscillations.

[Scott H]

I was just trying to get the point across that the insert was the strut, not the housing itself......

This thread is going to be about correcting a lot of misinformation.... :D


The strut refers to the type of front suspension which is a macpherson strut design which basically means that strut/shock/spring assembly replaces what would have been a upper control arm and shock assy......

[Bill R.]

page is fairly accurate and current or is a lot of this no longer used?
Here (http://www.quass.com/junaberry10-2003.html)




Also, the shock absorber is properly called a damper. The spring is what absorbs the shock, the damper controls its oscillations.

[Anthony (M5 in Calgary)]

page is fairly accurate and current or is a lot of this no longer used?
Here (http://www.quass.com/junaberry10-2003.html)

I'm not an Englishman but I play one on TV. Actually my mum is from Blighty and I'm familiar with many of these slang words. Of course, she emigrated in 1952...

[Erwin8r]

Great thread, Handyman! Let's not argue over semantics ("strut" vs. "strut insert" or "strut cartridge"... geesh!!), or who's more right or wrong. I'm doing suspension very soon, and seeing as how Steve Haygood has never steered me wrong (Rotors, pads, plugs, filters, coolant hoses, hubs, center support bearings, etc., etc., etc...), I will turn to him for the Ployurethane or M5 bushings (trying to decide..... LOL!!). This thread is very timely....

[HDhandyman]

necessary to do the job (4 springs, 2 struts, 2 shocks, short bump stops, strut retaining collars) but nothing is assembled. The springs are Eibach and the boge turbo gas sport shocks are custom valved for the spring they are applied to. The sachs kit is stiff and still puts plenty of stress on other parts.

Thanks, Scott! That's actually what I had initially in the post, but got paranoid and decided to take it out. I was still under the impression that the stuff would come pre-assembled--so good to know what would really come shipped. Definately, the kit will put more stress than stock, but I was told by my Indy and BMA that it would be less stress than another "sweet" combo due to the combined design. Is this wrong?

Thanks to everbody for playing Devil's advocate. We don't have too many people posting dummie questions right now, so I guess I'll just have to be the dummie. Anton still wants to know if the Poly bushings need to be lubed.

And, Bill R. now that we've had all this info about strut/shock etc., is there anything that I need to clean up in my post other than the Sachs, stuff?

P.S. Thanks 88 for the Koni vouch! I said BMA was the largest Sachs kit distributor, not BMW. Maybe that helps!

Thanks,
Stephen

[liquidtiger720]

Picture of actual sachs kit and how it comes. :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v457/liquidtiger720/CAM_1205Medium.jpg

[632 Regal]

Looks like the average piece together kit, cool those are special calibrated shocks.

I like red and black.


Picture of actual sachs kit and how it comes. :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v457/liquidtiger720/CAM_1205Medium.jpg

[liquidtiger720]

special calibrated shocks? hahahahahaha

[Zeuk in Oz]

Not that I'm English, but that list is hardly exhaustive :

Missed out on "dog" - dog and bone - phone

As in "talked with him on the dog last night".

[BigKriss]

Well, I don't mean to get any more enemies on here that I already have and I don't think it's arguing over semantics however I looked over my notes from when I was studying last year and all mechanics in NSW are taught that on a McPherson strut design that the "insert" in the shock absorber and the "strut housing" is just known as the strut. I'll show you what the text book says;
http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/8012/strutdesign19kp.jpg

Another example;
http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/7089/strut35pf.jpg


I was just trying to get the point across that the insert was the strut, not the housing itself......

This thread is going to be about correcting a lot of misinformation.... :D

[Bill R.]

pictured the hyundai and the holdens (gm) don't have strut inserts, you buy the entire strut assy as is shown here in the pic of a kyb for a hyundai. I mentioned that earlier that some cars don't have replaceable inserts for the struts (http://replacement.car-stuff.com/parts/carstuff/quote.jsp?year=2002&product=L3000-123343&application=000677650&part=Strut%20Assembly&category=L&returnurl=null&dp=true&showdc=true#top)




Well, I don't mean to get any more enemies on here that I already have and I don't think it's arguing over semantics however I looked over my notes from when I was studying last year and all mechanics in NSW are taught that on a McPherson strut design that the "insert" in the shock absorber and the "strut housing" is just known as the strut. I'll show you what the text book says;
http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/8012/strutdesign19kp.jpg

Another example;
http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/7089/strut35pf.jpg

[Anthony (M5 in Calgary)]

Picture of actual sachs kit and how it comes. :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v457/liquidtiger720/CAM_1205Medium.jpg


The bump stops provided in that kit look tiny. How long are they? M5 bump stop is 2.9" and normal E34 is 3.5". The shorter bump stops should keep this kit from bottoming out.

M5 stop:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/interalian/DSC00344.jpg

[Scott H]

like so

http://www.hersted.org/DSC00344.jpg


The bump stops provided in that kit look tiny. How long are they? M5 bump stop is 2.9" and normal E34 is 3.5". The shorter bump stops should keep this kit from bottoming out.

M5 stop:

[Anthony (M5 in Calgary)]

like so

http://www.hersted.org/DSC00344.jpg

Thanks Scottl. I hope the Sachs kit is still available when my SLS finally bites the dust. Sounds like a nice setup.

[Scott H]

BTW, how is the supersprint?


Thanks Scottl. I hope the Sachs kit is still available when my SLS finally bites the dust. Sounds like a nice setup.

[632 Regal]

the bumpstops are why I changed to the Bilsteins, it would actually ride on the bumpstops even after I cut them way down. I even had to cut the Bilstein bumpstops down...
http://www.bimmer.info/~regal632/Bumpstops.htm


Thanks Scottl. I hope the Sachs kit is still available when my SLS finally bites the dust. Sounds like a nice setup.

[Anthony (M5 in Calgary)]

BTW, how is the supersprint?

I use OE front springs and Koni Sport (new a couple of weeks ago) up front. The rears are Dinan springs on SLS, the final remnant of the Dinan Stage 1 kit I put on in 2001. When the one of the front Dinan springs broke I re-installed the OE fronts and haven't got around to putting the OE rears back on since it means opening the SLS hydraulics up. I have a new pair of SLS bombs to install in the springtime, so the Dinan rears will revert to OE for better balance. The Dinan rears will be for sale if anybody is interested.

The SuperSprint exhaust is nice. Lighter than stock by about 40#. It is quite a bit louder than OE at idle but once the RPMs are above 1500 it is about the same until the engine comes "on cam". Then it makes a very nice shriek up to redline - very satisfying. Saved about $600 vs OE too.

[Anthony (M5 in Calgary)]

the bumpstops are why I changed to the Bilsteins, it would actually ride on the bumpstops even after I cut them way down. I even had to cut the Bilstein bumpstops down...
http://www.bimmer.info/~regal632/Bumpstops.htm

Wonder if you can get these Sachs-y bump stops separately? They'd be just the trick for a Koni setup with lowering springs.

[632 Regal]

whatever
special calibrated shocks? hahahahahaha

[Scott H]

may use it as an excuse to nab one this summer..... :D


The SuperSprint exhaust is nice. Lighter than stock by about 40#. It is quite a bit louder than OE at idle but once the RPMs are above 1500 it is about the same until the engine comes "on cam". Then it makes a very nice shriek up to redline - very satisfying. Saved about $600 vs OE too.

[Scott H]

can't remember how I got it....

I'll take a look-see this weekend


Wonder if you can get these Sachs-y bump stops separately? They'd be just the trick for a Koni setup with lowering springs.

[Toeks]

What do you guys say? Bargain or not?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BMW-CONTROL-ARM-E34-SUSPENSION-UPGRADED-FULL-set_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33583QQitemZ8039844 330QQrdZ1#ShippingPayment

[liquidtiger720]

What do you guys say? Bargain or not?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BMW-CONTROL-ARM-E34-SUSPENSION-UPGRADED-FULL-set_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33583QQitemZ8039844 330QQrdZ1#ShippingPayment



There is a lot of debate about those kits (it dosnt really even say who the parts are made by).

My opinion on anything non-lemforder or OEM for those parts- They are worth it if you plan to sell your car within a year. If not...it looks as if you'll be replacing them every year.

[Kalevera]

What do you guys say? Bargain or not?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BMW-CONTROL-ARM-E34-SUSPENSION-UPGRADED-FULL-set_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33583QQitemZ8039844 330QQrdZ1#ShippingPayment
Meyle? Why would you stick that junk on your car, even after it's been proven to be garbage (by myself and others, countless times)?

OEM Lemforder. One of the only companies to sell ONE product line, so you always know what you're getting.

best, whit

[BigKriss]

Okay, thanks for clearing that up Bill. I am still learning.

Stephen, maybe you should make your own front swaybar links
http://www.uucmotorwerks.com/html_techtip/techtips/sway_bar_links.htm



pictured the hyundai and the holdens (gm) don't have strut inserts, you buy the entire strut assy as is shown here in the pic of a kyb for a hyundai. I mentioned that earlier that some cars don't have replaceable inserts for the struts (http://replacement.car-stuff.com/parts/carstuff/quote.jsp?year=2002&product=L3000-123343&application=000677650&part=Strut%20Assembly&category=L&returnurl=null&dp=true&showdc=true#top)

[HDhandyman]

Thanks Kriss, and may I just say that your contribution to this thread has been a pleasure to read.

I promise more is coming guys. Had a busy weekend with family. Next installment soon!

[Toeks]

Meyle? Why would you stick that junk on your car, even after it's been proven to be garbage (by myself and others, countless times)?

OEM Lemforder. One of the only companies to sell ONE product line, so you always know what you're getting.

best, whit
Thanks lowell and liquidtiger, knew I'd get the right answer here. Lemfoder's at BMA I suppose? Or can you get them cheaper somewhere else?

[HDhandyman]

Thanks lowell and liquidtiger, knew I'd get the right answer here. Lemfoder's at BMA I suppose? Or can you get them cheaper somewhere else?

Have you read this thread all the way through?