Strut Brace -- Take a look

[mholbrook]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8041696963&ssPageName=MERC_VIC_ReBay_Pr3_PcY_BIN_IT

I bought one of these strut braces and it came yesterday. Quality looks great and I don't anticipate any fit problems as it sat right on the bolts. I'm going to install this afternoon but wanted to pass this on to you guys.

The price seems right to me.

[Alexlind123]

It looks pretty good, i think i might prefer steel though.

[SRR2]

That looks a LOT more substantial than most of them. You have to laugh at those that have massive bars and mounting plates, then have a 1/4" threaded "adjuster" at one end. I don't recall whose was like that, but I think it was one of the 'name' brands. Ridiculous. I wonder how much the bow in the brace reduces the stiffness. Too bad the engine and hood placement prevents using a perfectly straight brace.

What do you expect this thing to do for you? Do you autocross the car or something where that little bit of extra rigidity will make a difference?

[Scott H]

substantially effective......but I hear what you are saying about the "adjustable" ones.....



That looks a LOT more substantial than most of them. You have to laugh at those that have massive bars and mounting plates, then have a 1/4" threaded "adjuster" at one end. I don't recall whose was like that, but I think it was one of the 'name' brands. Ridiculous. I wonder how much the bow in the brace reduces the stiffness. Too bad the engine and hood placement prevents using a perfectly straight brace.

What do you expect this thing to do for you? Do you autocross the car or something where that little bit of extra rigidity will make a difference?

[zmuff]

Looks like a pretty good deal. 6063 T-6 is good stuff, nice high shear and tensile strength, and very resistant to corrosion. I think I may have to get one. Let us know if goes on as easy as it looks.

[ericcamaro]

is there a bar made for the e34 that ties into the firewall as well??? doesnt seem like theres much room with the wireing harness right there and a bunch of other crap, prolly have to be a custom piece???

[Erwin8r]

substantially effective......but I hear what you are saying about the "adjustable" ones.....
Not true. The idea is to try to minimize the movement between the two shock towers. A straight bar between them would be ideal. A "bowed" bar is less than perfect, but still far better than none at all. And there is a discernable "tightening up" of the steering response and feel when running a strut tower brace even carving through canyon roads, let alone race track, time attack (might be doing some next week at Cal Speedway...) or autocross. Besides, a lot of the things we enthusiasts do to our cars cannot nor should not be justified using the "need" standard... just my .02....

[Scott H]

both strut towers can move together in unison.....a perfect strut bar!

I wasn't justifying anything, you took my post to mean something it did not. I never told anyone not to get one.

I was merely stating the fact that without tying it in to the firewall, it's not attached to a more fixed position.....therefor you're still losing the full intended rigidity/stiffness achieved by using a strut bar in the first place. The idea is to get rid of any movement at all, not just side to side movement, but up and down as well....how do you think this happens?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/interalian/temp/ad7a.jpg

The addition of a tower to tower brace is noticeable, but not 100% effective. When you say steering response, what do you mean? Initial turn in? Structural stability maintained through hard cornering so that any flex is not affecting camber? I maintain that the strut tower brace on my M5 with has done nothing to initial turn in(camber plates have though) but has helped with lateral stability and tracking in high speed cornering....



Not true. The idea is to try to minimize the movement between the two shock towers. A straight bar between them would be ideal. A "bowed" bar is less than perfect, but still far better than none at all. And there is a discernable "tightening up" of the steering response and feel when running a strut tower brace even carving through canyon roads, let alone race track, time attack (might be doing some next week at Cal Speedway...) or autocross. Besides, a lot of the things we enthusiasts do to our cars cannot nor should not be justified using the "need" standard... just my .02....

[hakwuzhere]

Scott, Ive driven a few cars with strut tower bars, before and after. They were all similar to the bar listed in the auction above. I noticed a much more rigid feel to cornering and body roll. Is this not desireable for hard cornering? Or is it not improving the cornering capability?

I understand that none of these will preform as well as a custom fabricated strut tower bar on a racecar... but AFAIK no one here drives a 5 series racecar.

(Edit: Oh, and they do kinda look cool... so a $200 mod that improves handling somewhat and the looking cool is a bonus) :)

(Edit2: Im just a bit unclear on understeer vs oversteer, I know out of the box our cars are designed to understeer because that is easier to control, but oversteer if handled properly can improve performance. It says in the auction that a front strut tower bar lowers understeer. Which has a higher effect on understeer, front or rear strut bars?... along those same lines, front or rear sways? or should you just do both and reduce over and understeer....(does this question make sense?))

[califblue]

looks pretty good and has an attractive price.
here is HARTEG one
http://www.auto-mark.com/
http://www.auto-mark.com/img/strut%20bar%20e34%20-%2031340555.jpg

[mholbrook]

1. I like the look and it's more "eye candy" for me than anything.
2. I had the Hartge bar on my 89 535. Good bar but has the bolt through both sides. Easy to move it out of the way if you have to for some reason like adjusting valves etc.
3. The Hartge bar was initially priced way, way below the $225 they want now. Which is why I bought it. I looked first for another "deal" like that but those days must be gone.
4. Like so many, I felt that if the bar was "solid" with no bolts etc in there, it would be stronger so when I saw this one for the right price (my opinion), I jumped on it.
5. This is just one small piece of the puzzle. I'm just warming up to my new to me 92 535. I might wait until I do the injectors and the valve cover before I install it......or not.

[mholbrook]

Forgot one thing.....Someone mentioned they wanted a steel bar. This guy makes them in steel too so just ask him and he'll probably do it for you.

[Scott H]

I'm not trying to be a dick here but I'm going to come off as one....

You are trying to establish that you know what the effects of a strut tower bar are but you are unclear on what understeer and oversteer are?

You also seem to be under the impression that a strut tower bar will do as much for handling characteristics as sway bars?

I'd like to see you fit a rear strut bar in your E34 sedan without permanent modification.

I'm sorry I ever posted my initial simple comment that a strut tower bar not tied to the firewall is not 100% as effective as it is intended to be!

.....also, the delta in stiffness from a steel bar is probably not worth the delta in weight gain due to it, especially when placed at a higher center of gravity.....but I guess we're splitting hairs here.....my fault



Scott, Ive driven a few cars with strut tower bars, before and after. They were all similar to the bar listed in the auction above. I noticed a much more rigid feel to cornering and body roll. Is this not desireable for hard cornering? Or is it not improving the cornering capability?....

.....(Edit2: Im just a bit unclear on understeer vs oversteer, I know out of the box our cars are designed to understeer because that is easier to control, but oversteer if handled properly can improve performance. It says in the auction that a front strut tower bar lowers understeer. Which has a higher effect on understeer, front or rear strut bars?... along those same lines, front or rear sways? or should you just do both and reduce over and understeer....(does this question make sense?))

[Erwin8r]

both strut towers can move together in unison.....a perfect strut bar!

I wasn't justifying anything, you took my post to mean something it did not. I never told anyone not to get one.

I was merely stating the fact that without tying it in to the firewall, it's not attached to a more fixed position.....therefor you're still losing the full intended rigidity/stiffness achieved by using a strut bar in the first place. The idea is to get rid of any movement at all, not just side to side movement, but up and down as well....how do you think this happens?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/interalian/temp/ad7a.jpg

The addition of a tower to tower brace is noticeable, but not 100% effective. When you say steering response, what do you mean? Initial turn in? Structural stability maintained through hard cornering so that any flex is not affecting camber? I maintain that the strut tower brace on my M5 with has done nothing to initial turn in(camber plates have though) but has helped with lateral stability and tracking in high speed cornering....
Yes, you are being a dick, but that's okay--I've read enough of your posts to understand that it's your style. And I am alluding to initial turn in, behavior whilst in a turn, at the apex, and hammering the throttle just after... Sure, you can structurally cross-brace the **** out of anything, but short of going to a spec race car, a strut brace works pretty damned good. The idea is not to get rid of ALL movement--otherwise we'd be driving go karts. The idea is to minimize deflection as much as possible so that we have a stable, predictable platform. Not trying to start a pissing contest--merely stating what I know based on my experience.

:)

[Scott H]

which was taken to be something other than what it was by many......

is that a strut tower brace of said design, attaching temporarily to the three bolts on the top of the strut tower, with threaded adjusting rods or removeable bar, can only be expected to do so much before it's limitations run out.

I am a poseur myself, having one on the M5 (racing dynamics from the previous owner, but I have done nothing to remove it). I notice that initial turn in is barely affected.....if you want that, go get camber plates.....

I'm glad the general impression of me around here is that I'm an *******......it serves to shows what good judge of character we all are. Actually I just don't feel like stroking anyone on an internet message board and would rather just say what I have to say and move on.....I'm sure there are many others who are just more conscious of how they appear but I can guarantee they would love to rip some *******s around here.


......The idea is to minimize deflection as much as possible so that we have a stable, predictable platform.....

:)

[Erwin8r]

which was taken to be something other than what it was by many......

is that a strut tower brace of said design, attaching temporarily to the three bolts on the top of the strut tower, with threaded adjusting rods or removeable bar, can only be expected to do so much before it's limitations run out.

I am a poseur myself, having one on the M5 (racing dynamics from the previous owner, but I have done nothing to remove it). I notice that initial turn in is barely affected.....if you want that, go get camber plates.....

I'm glad the general impression of me around here is that I'm an *******......it serves to shows what good judge of character we all are. Actually I just don't feel like stroking anyone on an internet message board and would rather just say what I have to say and move on.....I guess Winfred's an ******* too b/c he tells it like it is, and I'm sure there are many others who are just more conscious of how they appear but I can guarantee they would love to rip some *******s around here.

Camber plates? For turn-in? You mean that I should adjust my caster, right? Because while camber plates are great for incresaing traction (mostly) and vehicle behavior mid-corner (minimally), caster is the adjustment we're looking for (after toe adjustment) to affect turn-in...

It isn't just about telling it like it is--that comes across as smart. I was referring to the acrimony and defensiveness....

[Brandon J]

For what's out there this does LOOK good. I think the Hartge ones are POS as I have seen them.

If we are talking about handling, then sways, suspension geometry with camber plates, springs, shocks, should be looked at.

If we are talking about body rigidity, then I would be better interested in an X-brace like the M3 lightweight.

I know several people with strut braces and the only noticeable gain I see is a harsher ride as energy from on tower is transfered to the other. I have seen very good braces that tie into the firewall or a rollcage, triangulating for better body rigidity.

I guess if I had a full race suspension, polyurethane bushings, and using slicks then I would get it b/c anything is better. But for the street, where compliance helps keep the tires in contact with the uneven surfaces of the road, I wouldn't get one. I have done well with a good spring/shock combo, good sways, great tires and camber plates.

[Scott H]

additional negative camber is assisted greatly by additional caster. I would be using my KMACs on the M5 with a compromise between camber and caster adjustment to maximize both if the urethane bushing didn't transmit so much road harshness through to the chassis. Nothing like maximum contact patch while the wheels are turned. Once again, a fixed camber plate, adjusting only camber, is a compromise.....just like the strut bar that doesn't connect to the firewall...

I get defensive when my words get taken out of context and then statements are made based on that.....sorry


Camber plates? For turn-in? You mean that I should adjust my caster, right? Because while camber plates are great for incresaing traction (mostly) and vehicle behavior mid-corner (minimally), caster is the adjustment we're looking for (after toe adjustment) to affect turn-in...

It isn't just about telling it like it is--that comes across as smart. I was referring to the acrimony and defensiveness....

[Brandon J]

Camber plates? For turn-in? You mean that I should adjust my caster, right? Because while camber plates are great for incresaing traction (mostly) and vehicle behavior mid-corner (minimally), caster is the adjustment we're looking for (after toe adjustment) to affect turn-in...

It isn't just about telling it like it is--that comes across as smart. I was referring to the acrimony and defensiveness....

Yup, Turn in is better. Camber is also about suspension geometry. Yeah caster would help thus shortening the wheel base in theory, but so does the angle of the wheel. Sways also improve turn-in, and shocks and springs and plus sizing wheels. All these have nothing to do with the caster. Just an FYI.

Have you seen those videos on slaloms, increase negative camber helps as the geometry is better for turning at any time, one way is it helps reduce the tire roll on its edges thus getting better grip on the tire contact area.

For those who know. toe angle also affect turn in or straight line stability. Toe-out helps turn in, toe-in improves straight line stability especially at higher speeds. Tire wear is different for each.

[hakwuzhere]

Heh, dont think I sounded like I was trying to come off like an authority Scott. But at least you responded. Ive realized in my past few months here that thick skin is required for reading responses here, cause after you get through the initial assault, youll get some good information.

I have actually started to take interest in my car over the past few months... In my first bimmer, I just dropped it off at my mechanic at regular service intervals...and as long as it started and felt sporty... I was happy. My E34 is getting a bit more attention from me, and for the foreseeable future, people on the internet will have to deal with my uneducated posts and opinions... That is until the day when I feel comfortable that I know everything.

Thats the reason I dont post on A/V, IT or technology integration boards is cause of people like me... :)

[Erwin8r]

For what's out there this does LOOK good. I think the Hartge ones are POS as I have seen them.

If we are talking about handling, then sways, suspension geometry with camber plates, springs, shocks, should be looked at.

If we are talking about body rigidity, then I would be better interested in an X-brace like the M3 lightweight.

I know several people with strut braces and the only noticeable gain I see is a harsher ride as energy from on tower is transfered to the other. I have seen very good braces that tie into the firewall or a rollcage, triangulating for better body rigidity.

I guess if I had a full race suspension, polyurethane bushings, and using slicks then I would get it b/c anything is better. But for the street, where compliance helps keep the tires in contact with the uneven surfaces of the road, I wouldn't get one. I have done well with a good spring/shock combo, good sways, great tires and camber plates.

Handling/rigidity usually go hand in hand. I think the common ground is that we acknowledge that some compromise is necessary for a "street" car. My 540/6 is very solid and predictable until 8/10ths--then she gets a bit out of shape. Sure, it's no WRX or Elise, but I do appreciate the sharper feel of a finely integrated suspension/handling system and I know she can be drastically improved. This includes the correct sized sway bars, struts/shocks/springs, strut bars, adjustable camber plates front and rear, etc. I'm not ready to hack into the cabin for a half-cage (as a partner has dones with his barely-legal G35 coupe), and forced induction is a ways off, but a strut bar would not be in the "over the top" column on my to do list.... The LSD went in today (3.45), as did the AC Schnitzer steering wheel (the M-Tech II was just a wee bit too large at 385mm). I've got a line on some decent M-Tech springs, a set of Koni's, followed by M5 sways, then maybe that Canadian strut brace... ;)

[Scott H]

makes me want to go take it out on the interns at work..... :D


....... I was referring to the acrimony and defensiveness....

[Erwin8r]

Yup, Turn in is better. Camber is also about suspension geometry. Yeah caster would help thus shortening the wheel base in theory, but so does the angle of the wheel. Sways also improve turn-in, and shocks and springs and plus sizing wheels. All these have nothing to do with the caster. Just an FYI.

Have you seen those videos on slaloms, increase negative camber helps as the geometry is better for turning at any time, one way is it helps reduce the tire roll on its edges thus getting better grip on the tire contact area.

For those who know. toe angle also affect turn in or straight line stability. Toe-out helps turn in, toe-in improves straight line stability especially at higher speeds. Tire wear is different for each.
Seen videos? How about worn Hoosiers around the big track at Willow? Or Nittos around the Streets of Willow (that poor Celica... LOL!--not to mention Dunlop D208 GPs on my GSXR 1000... ;o) . Saying that camber affects turn-in is like saying that sway-bars affect turn-in: of course it does, but they are all part of the front suspension system (just like the spring rate, the tire compound, the rebound and compression settings, etc...). That wasn't my point; my point is that there is a noticeable turning advantage when utilizing a properly designed strut brace. I'm running the time attack at California Speedway next week in my GF's Golf GTI--should be fun, and I wish I had a strut brace on it! :p

[Erwin8r]

makes me want to go take it out on the interns at work..... :D
LOL!!! Can I rent you out to 'TO' some of these wacky legal secretaries? :D

[Brandon J]

Seen videos? How about worn Hoosiers around the big track at Willow? Or Nittos around the Streets of Willow (that poor Celica... LOL!--not to mention Dunlop D208 GPs on my GSXR 1000... ;o) . Saying that camber affects turn-in is like saying that sway-bars affect turn-in: of course it does, but they are all part of the front suspension system (just like the spring rate, the tire compound, the rebound and compression settings, etc...). That wasn't my point; my point is that there is a noticeable turning advantage when utilizing a properly designed strut brace. I'm running the time attack at California Speedway next week in my GF's Golf GTI--should be fun, and I wish I had a strut brace on it! :p

I have run my own set of slicks and read my post further down the thread. Last I remember, almost 99% of these e34s are used on the street. Of course all contribute as a system. So then what are you saying when these cars aren't set for caster adjustment from the factory and need kmacs or offset bushings. Now are you just talking to talk or are you referencing these to the e34 that almost ALL of us drive? Last I remember the link in this thread was to a strut brace for the e34.

There are many cars out there that do benefit greatly from strutbars, albeit that their body and chassis are not as stiff as the e34 or don't drive the rear wheels. But in reference to a street e34 where as far as I know (please correct me if I am wrong) you can adjust caster only with kmacs, minus any custom offset bushing. So, instead of filling space trying to overtake this thread with theories or real world experience to other vehicles that behave differently than the e34 on the street, again read my post further down the thread. I have some information on real world experience for the street e34.

[Erwin8r]

I have run my own set of slicks and read my post further down the thread. Last I remember, almost 99% of these e34s are used on the street. Of course all contribute as a system. So then what are you saying when these cars aren't set for caster adjustment from the factory and need kmacs or offset bushings. Now are you just talking to talk or are you referencing these to the e34 that almost ALL of us drive? Last I remember the link in this thread was to a strut brace for the e34.

There are many cars out there that do benefit greatly from strutbars, albeit that their body and chassis are not as stiff as the e34 or don't drive the rear wheels. But in reference to a street e34 where as far as I know (please correct me if I am wrong) you can adjust caster only with kmacs, minus any custom offset bushing. So, instead of filling space trying to overtake this thread with theories or real world experience to other vehicles that behave differently than the e34 on the street, again read my post further down the thread. I have some information on real world experience for the street e34.Whoa--first of all, my post discussing caster was in direct response to a post from Scott discussing Camber--and the tone was along the lines of intimating how we could get ridiculous discussing race suspension when in fact we were simply debating the merits of a strut brace. And "albeit" would prelude a divergent, almost paradoxical thought, not a correlating one (as in "he was fast, albeit sloppy..."). But I digress to my original point: who cares what 99% of the people do with THEIR cars--what's important is what you want to do with YOUR car. A strut brace is not a bad mod... and "overtake this thread?" Do you really feel that you're BMW-Suspension knowledge is that threatened? Your supremacy questioned? Geezus-H-Chreeist...... Just like you, unless I'm banned form this site, I have as much right to voice an opinion. So if want to just "talk," then that's what I'll do. You can deduce whatever you like from that.

[Hector]

and I can feel the increased difference in stability when turning although small but noticeable. The strut brace performs at its best in cars with bigger wheels/wider tires. I believe I have posted here (or elsewhere) why this is the case.

[Erwin8r]

I have run my own set of slicks and read my post further down the thread. Last I remember, almost 99% of these e34s are used on the street. Of course all contribute as a system. So then what are you saying when these cars aren't set for caster adjustment from the factory and need kmacs or offset bushings. Now are you just talking to talk or are you referencing these to the e34 that almost ALL of us drive? Last I remember the link in this thread was to a strut brace for the e34.

There are many cars out there that do benefit greatly from strutbars, albeit that their body and chassis are not as stiff as the e34 or don't drive the rear wheels. But in reference to a street e34 where as far as I know (please correct me if I am wrong) you can adjust caster only with kmacs, minus any custom offset bushing. So, instead of filling space trying to overtake this thread with theories or real world experience to other vehicles that behave differently than the e34 on the street, again read my post further down the thread. I have some information on real world experience for the street e34.Filling space? Overtaking this thread? Are you really feeling that your "BMW-Suspension-tuning Supremacy" is that threatened? Geezus-H.....
Who cares what 99% of people do to their cars--what is important is what YOU do to your car. What "...all of us drive..." is a whole lot of people, and they can voice their own opinion without being lumped in and generalized for... Again, a strut brace is a relatively inane mod with perceptible benefits. And I won't get into a pissing contest with you regarding who's turned more laps or who's done what with whom. I've shared "real world" experience here--this 540/6 is not my first E34, let alone my first BMW, and I have turned more than enough laps on both tracks in Rosamond to at least comment on my experience...

[Bill R.]

I may have missed something interesting here... Itchy trigger finger?

[Scott H]

You *may* have missed something interesting?

You DID miss something intersting. :D

I guess this is what happens when we institute heavy moderation.


I may have missed something interesting here... Itchy trigger finger?

[632 Regal]

bump

[hakwuzhere]

Now Im totally confused... moderate or dont...

But nothing on this thread has struck me as offensive... it was a relatively small pissing contest...

[Erwin8r]

Now Im totally confused... moderate or dont...

But nothing on this thread has struck me as offensive... it was a relatively small pissing contest...

Hmmm.... I don't know whether to blush or buy a Swedish pump... :p

Again, my apologies for getting so "engaged" in that debate....

[hakwuzhere]

Rofl!

[Robin-535im]

I've read enough of your posts to understand that it's your style. :)

Perhaps you should read even more of Scott's posts and you'll realize he's a rock-solid long term member who has helped lots of people on the board over the years.

[Erwin8r]

Perhaps you should read even more of Scott's posts and you'll realize he's a rock-solid long term member who has helped lots of people on the board over the years.
So what does that have to do with the price of cheese in China? I think Scott and I have "quashed" the negative part of our diatribe...

Besides, I don't think anybody questioned anyone's solidity on this board during that entire exchange... ;)

[Scott H]

I'madickheadposeurwithastrutbaronanM5thatsitsinmyg aragelikeatrophywhileIdrivea14yearoldwagonthatI've spenttoomuchmoneyinattemptstocompensateformydayjob 'slackofabilitytofulfillmyego.

:D (for Gayle)


So what does that have to do with the price of cheese in China? I think Scott and I have "quashed" the negative part of our diatribe...

Besides, I don't think anybody questioned anyone's solidity on this board during that entire exchange... ;)

[Brandon J]

I'madickheadposeurwithastrutbaronanM5thatsitsinmyg aragelikeatrophywhileIdrivea14yearoldwagonthatI've spenttoomuchmoneyinattemptstocompensateformydayjob 'slackofabilitytofulfillmyego.

:D (for Gayle)

ROFL:D