Moderately disturbing... winfred maybe youve seen this...

[Jon K]

The topic could lead people to thinking somethign gross is coming up - but it's not.


I pulled my fuel rail today to swap out 17# injectors with 30# injectors. All was wel until I got cylinder 1 injector side out. I noticed the rubber seal on the tip was not present on that injector. I checked in the inake manifold and alas, there it was, all better! Not. There was no green spray tip on the end of the injector either and thus the reason the rubber seal was able to stay in the manifold.

It felt like I had an injector sticking - i would get a hesitation that felt more like a rich condition than a lean condition so i attributed it to my ultra high fuel pressure due to rising rate fuel pressure regulator w/ boost.

My question is - there was no tip on the injector when i pulled it out. That means either the angle i pulled it out in ripped it off and it fell down or it came off while the motor was operating. Unfortunately, the #1 cyl intake valves were open about 3 or 4 millimeters and I am worrying it slipped past them (i pulled the intake manifold off... what a PITA) and fell into the combustion chamer. I assume the sprayer is just plastic and so if it fell in the chamber it'd just burn to hell and whatver... but I am not totally sure.

Winfred, Bill R, anyone, have you ever seen this happen? Has the tips ever fallen off the injector and into the chamber somehow/sometime? Has a tip ever fallen off during removal and managed to slip through open intake valves? I looked in the head there and there was no sign of it - i gapped the valve its like 4mm, and the sprayer tip is like 4mm also, i cannot imagine it just falling in, but I've seen stranger ****. Any advice people?


Also - assuming the sprayer tip is plastic can I start the car? What would happen? If it's metal... which I hope to god it is not- what do you suggest?

[Martin in Bellevue]

If it was metal, you'd have a better chance of retrieving the piece with a magnet on a string or telescope. I am afraid material of plastic would bend a valve.
Have you pulled the spark plug for better access? Is there a boroscope available to you? I wouldn't crank that thing until the chamber vas clear.

As an aside, I spent way too much time changing belts on the supacharged m3 this afternoon. The old belt to the supacharger was cracked & glazed. The new blet seems to have made a noticeable difference in the power. I also noticed some oil in the intake lines. I guess the oil forms from the oil supply line to the supacharger? It doesn't consume a noticeable amount of oil, although we've only put a couple thousand miles on it in the last 8 months we've had it. Should this oil pooling be a concern?

[winfred]

it most likely fell off when you pulled the rack it's common, after a while you learn how to pull the rack out without loosing the tips but **** still happens once in a while, i've lost count over the years the number of injector heat shields i have run through motors, it never feels right starting it with crap in the cylinder but have not trashed anything yet, it is plastic and shouldn't hurt anything but if you can't get it out you have a choice, pull the head or let-er rip

[Jon K]

it most likely fell off when you pulled the rack it's common, after a while you learn how to pull the rack out without loosing the tips but **** still happens once in a while, i've lost count over the years the number of injector heat shields i have run through motors, it never feels right starting it with crap in the cylinder but have not trashed anything yet, it is plastic and shouldn't hurt anything but if you can't get it out you have a choice, pull the head or let-er rip

winfred - its plastic right? I had the O ring stuck in the manifold and the thing behind the O ring fell off the injector and onto the floor... so worst case is I have a soft plastic thing in my chamber and all will be ok... Theres no metal in that tip right?



Martin - when you say oil in the intake do you mean pre-blower or post-blower. How is the crankcase being vented in your setup? If you're still returning the crankcase vent to the intake of the blower then yeah you will see oil in the intake tract. I use a catch can for that very reason.

[winfred]

no metal, plastic heat shield, o-ring, plastic ring, injector body

[Jon K]

Ok thanks Winfred - i'll pull the plug... if I see it I'll obviouly remove it, if not... **** it.

Find it ironic that I am picking up an m50 non vanos from Connecticut tomorrow and the night before then I have an issue with something in the combustion chamber? Don't worry baby bmw, you will be fine.... i ... swear..

[Bill R.]

a number of fuel lines,vacum lines, transmission lines each one stuck inside the other and taped together until i stepped it up to a size that fits my shop vacum , this mess was taped together with duct tape and stepped down to the small vacum line hose which fits inside the spark plug hole.. then with the vacum running you feed the hose around inside the cylinder and slowly pull it out. Repeat until you finally catch the piece if its in there that is.. If you have one of those computer vacum thingies you might be able to adapt it to a bigger vacum and use that. I keep my taped together hose thing around for nissan vg30 motors since crap always falls into the combustion chamber on those when you pull the plugs out.






Ok thanks Winfred - i'll pull the plug... if I see it I'll obviouly remove it, if not... **** it.

Find it ironic that I am picking up an m50 non vanos from Connecticut tomorrow and the night before then I have an issue with something in the combustion chamber? Don't worry baby bmw, you will be fine.... i ... swear..

[Jon K]

Thanks for the suggestion bill - i have an orec portable high power vacuum (the dealie that sucks up the bowling ball) and enough heater core hose to plumb my house. I will try and come up with something.

[Martin in Bellevue]

Yeah, there's a crankcase vent right to the inlet tract. When I pulled things apart, it hadn't been started for at least 1 month. Dynan created a mess of vent hoses to keep the thing clean, I suppose. The pool was at an elbow outlet from the vortech.
I hope that pressure valve doesn't fail; I'd hate to see boost get under the valve cover.

[Jon K]

What year M3 martin? Dinan modified the "oil cyclone" or oil seperator so that boost "shouldn't" enter the crank case. What I would do is plug the spot that the crank case returns to on the blower intake and go on ebay a search "catch can". They're like $15, just get one they're polished aluminum they look good and do their job. Route the hose (may need to buy new longer hose, heatercore hose) to the one inlet of the catch can and put a K&N breather filter on the other side of the catch can return.

Also, notice where the hose comes out of the crankcase - there is a ~1/2" hose for the crank case fumes, but there is also probably a small nipple for a 1/4 or 1/8" vacuum line that leads down towater the ICV. Cap that hoes if it is not already capped, plug the hose and cap the fitting it goes to... or you'll be boosting the crank case.

[Martin in Bellevue]

It is a '99 m3. I don't mind a little oil in the intake. I like the idea of a catch can; I think the present setup is also ok. The oil seperator seems simple enough to last a while. The m3 isn't as enjoyable to wrench as the 5er; there's not much room for larger mitts.

[Rustam]

Any advice people?


Also - assuming the sprayer tip is plastic can I start the car? What would happen? If it's metal... which I hope to god it is not- what do you suggest?

Plastics are different and burn differently - some leave gooey residue some burn to ash. Some gooey residues freeze and stop burning some just turn to liquid. If this one does leave gooey residue that freezes it will increase compression inside of that cylinder since it displaces space and does that at greater rate at TDC comparing to BDC. That translates into preignition and knock. If it burns to ash - then that obviously gets blown out.

A good way to see what happens for now with that plastic piece is to break off identical from another injector (assuming injectors are not needed) and set that thing on fire - to see the consistency of what you've gotten after burning. How does it look?

If you do this - inform of what happens - I'd like to find out.

You may want to try experimenting with removed spark plug - the piece must be settled on the bottom most point which is closest to the passengers side (m30 engine?). Stick some soft twisting rubber or plastic piping through the spark plug opening trying to get closer to the passengers side of the chamber. Stick the other end of the piping into your mouth and suck as hard as you can - there is a chance you can hook that thing. That's what I would do...

good luck!

[Kobe Diesel]

If gas engines had a practical feature to blow down the cylinders before starting, overall engines would run much better with much less risk of damage.

Large diesel engines are equipped with indicator valves that are manually opened on each cylinder to allow blowdown of the chambers of any foreign matter, liquids, etc. Then they are closed, and the engine is started thereafter. I've heard horror stories when operators fail to do this and serious damage results from liquid slugging, valve seats errosion, crown and ring damage, turbo pitting, head cracks, etc.

Again, if there was a practical way of doing this on gas engines, then again not. Otherwise, I've never done this, but if after performing top end work, maybe removing the spark plugs and cranking the engine briefly at the starter relay could help in blowing out any traces of matter, then you can reassemble everything and take it from there. Just a thought.