An Interesting Transmission Rebuild post

[F4Phantom]

The auto transmission guys have had my car for 4 days doing a 2.3k rebuild. Was suppost to get it back today but instead a call saying they could not get the car working. Worked sometimes in R, sometimes in D but never both. He recons he does not know what is going. Said the tranny is very fragile and complicated with one component doing several different jobs. So anyway they are taking the thing to bits and going to problem solve.

As a side line issue, it crossed my mind that for the extra work they may ask for more money, not having an exact understanding of mechanics and what to expect of charges/fees, if he does ask for more is this fair? If not, what would you do, refuse altogether. And what if they dont get the tranny working properly?? do I pay a bit of money, the full amount. This could become complex (i hope not) but just want to be prepared with some levelheaded advice from you guys. THANKS

[Randell]

no, no, you paid $2300 for a rebuild, it's not a rebuild unless it works

all perishable parts should've been replaced, and all other parts should've been checked to see if they're ok... that's what you're paying for, if they can't put it back together properly that's their fault!

[BigKriss]

If they don't fix it and they can't fix it, I wouldn't pay anything. I always assumed the rebuild wasn't that hard and from your first post (http://www.bimmer.info/forum/showthread.php?t=19581), I asked winfred about the rebuild myself and bought a clutch rebuild kit from a member here over a year ago for around usd$150 becasue I know one day the transmission will fail, I don't know when though. So far it has performed well so fingers crossed. Here's what I wrote;

how long did it take you - the first time to rebuild the gearbox with the new clutch packs.

and how long does it take you these days

and total time to do the job, from start to finish ( i mean removing the driveshaft and gearbox and then putting them back together). How much does a rebuild like this cost aat your workshop - i mean how much does your workshop charge?

Here's what he replied with;

i can't remember how long the first couple took as that was many years ago, the whole process starting with pushing the car into the bay to test drive probably sucks up most of the day, the a-clutch job itself doesn't take long maybe a hour or less, (http://www.bimmer.info/forum/showthread.php?t=839)i don't know what the office charges for the job but a guess would be between $500 and $1000 parts and labor depending on how much other stuff it needed like tranny mounts, driveshaft hanger bearings, flex couplers, various seals and exhaust system hardwear

Phantom, did you get the transmission error message? What where your symptoms?

[F4Phantom]

Thanks for the advice, I will now know where I stand if I get a problematic call next week. The only reason for the rebuild was the reverse clutch pack was gone, which is also the first gear engine braking pack. In D the car is perfect. So basicly it is not worth taking the thing to bits without rebuilding the lot (thats what they tell me) so thats what I did. They now say it is an overly complex trans and hard to work with. Anyway, lets see what happens.

BTW the symptoms after the rebuild when the guys drove it was D sometimes working, R sometimes working, but never together. While the car was in my hands I only saw the TRANS PROG once (right before I gbooked it in) I suppose as the R slowly wore out it got worse.

[clhorton]

I bought a used tranny for 600 because I needed it now, but why did you want to pay someone 2300 to rebuild that tranny when you could have bought a remanufactured tranny from Kirt. If I had the extra money I would have surely got one from him, but the price you are paying is a lot more than what he charges for an already rebuilt unit. If they don't fix it tell them you want your tranny back and dont give them one more red cent.

[F4Phantom]

Kirt? I am afraid I dont know where he is & if he can ship to Australia. I went through a few auto specalists, these guys were at the lower end in price and at the top end in how well they came accross for expericance, knowledge and knowing my car. I could have judged em wrong, but so far I have not spend a cent so I suppose if they cant fix it I dont need to pay. Also some guys were saying they have a 3 months warranty, these guys said 2 years unlimited k's, made me feel like they were confident in their work.

[pundit]

"...Said the tranny is very fragile and complicated with one component doing several different jobs.."
"... and they forgot to mention that big round thing that goes... WEEEEEEEEEE, THWACK ZING!!!"

Well that inspires confidence.... NOT!! :(
That kind of appears to indicate hey don't know what they're doing and are feeding you ******** to cover their arses.

Does this crowd specialise in ZF transmissions or are they a general trans shop?
I'd be somewhat concerned that even if they get your trans working again, how long will it last?

If I were you I'd be pulling the plug and have the car towed out to a shop that knows what they're doing.
I think there's a shop in Dandenong that specialises in ZF's. If I can find the address I'll let you know.

[pundit]

I bought a used tranny for 600 because I needed it now, but why did you want to pay someone 2300 to rebuild that tranny when you could have bought a remanufactured tranny from Kirt. If I had the extra money I would have surely got one from him, but the price you are paying is a lot more than what he charges for an already rebuilt unit. If they don't fix it tell them you want your tranny back and dont give them one more red cent.
Yeah but it would probably cost $2,300.00 in shipping costs to Australia! ;)

[pundit]

Kirt? I am afraid I dont know where he is & if he can ship to Australia. I went through a few auto specalists, these guys were at the lower end in price and at the top end in how well they came accross for expericance, knowledge and knowing my car. I could have judged em wrong, but so far I have not spend a cent so I suppose if they cant fix it I dont need to pay. Also some guys were saying they have a 3 months warranty, these guys said 2 years unlimited k's, made me feel like they were confident in their work.
Which trans shop did you take your car to?

[F4Phantom]

If they call me next week with more probs I am wondering if I would pull the pin. I dont want to be unfair, but I dont want to waste money either. They did say they have 2 guys who specialise in ZF's.

This is them

http://www.automatictransmission.com.au/

Pundit, having worked on mercs in a shop?? what would the shops reaction be to a non paying customer if they were dissatisfied??

[F4Phantom]

Wholesale Automatics specialize in all types of transmissions ranging from Australian, European, American and Japanese but also specializing in late model, computerized, custom built, heavy duty and four wheel drive transmissions.

[pundit]

If they call me next week with more probs I am wondering if I would pull the pin. I dont want to be unfair, but I dont want to waste money either. They did say they have 2 guys who specialise in ZF's.

This is them

http://www.automatictransmission.com.au/

Pundit, having worked on mercs in a shop?? what would the shops reaction be to a non paying customer if they were dissatisfied??
If they are experienced in ZF's then they should have some idea on how to quote on a ZF4HP22. If they quoted you $2,300.00 for a rebuild then you should end up with a working rebuilt trans for $2,300.00.

Have they indicated to you that they are going to charge you extra to fix whatever 'new' problems they may find?
Okay things can and do go wrong with any job. The main thing is they fix it at the price quoted and don't dick you around for weeks on end.

I would give them the opportunity to sort it out but if they tell you they're going to charge you a bunch more then I'd consider contacting consumer affairs and see what your rights are. If you have a written quote or even a verbal quote that didn't indicate any major extras then I would expect them to stick to the price. I would ask them for a written report itemising just what they did in relation to the rebuild and exactly what parts have been replaced.

[joshua43214]

To be frank, I am a bit scared. Yes your trans is complicated, no, it is not a delicate thing. Having said that, even the best techs make mistakes, and no one wants to yank any transmission back out of a car, especialy a BMW. Normal proceedure at this point would be to diagnose the problem and attempt an in-car repair, failing that, pull and go through the trans again.

An automatic trans has a frightening number of parts fitted into a small space, very odd problems can occur from the simplest of errors, and when dealing with any Euro car, these problems can magnify horribly if you are not used to it. Techs that do complicated work on high end Euro cars are a breed appart from other technicians. Even in a large community, the number of techs competant to remove,let alone over haul your trans will be small. The company that has your car looks to be a competant outfit if your interested in American or Japanese performance, if they have a Euro tech on the payroll you should be ok, if not,well....

Assuming your law's are somewhat similar to mine (Ohio,USA), they are obligated to perform the service contracted for even if they have to spend an extra 100 hours doing it, within some percentage of the original quote. The best thing is to allow them to attempt figure out what went wrong and if they say they need more money, get a clear description of why and post it here. The last thing any shop wants, is to figure out what was originaly wrong with your car and then figure out what another shop did wrong fixing it. Do take it to a BMW or German car specialist when you get it back to verify that the install was done properly and professionaly. in the USA, transmission removers occupy the bottom of the food chain of mechanics, and even though the overhaul may have been done very well, that is no gaurentee that the install was.

Good luck and keep us posted

[KenB]

For $2300 they should rebuild the trans completely no matter what the problems. It's up to them to complete the job, if they made a mistake in putting it together causing other problems, it's on them. They should not try to charge you more. Pay with a credit card so you have some recourse if there is a problem afterwards.
After getting shafted by a tranny shop that didn't take a credit card and I paid by check, the next thing I did was go to the BMW dealer, the just popped in a completely rebuilt factory trans with a 2 year warranty. They replaced it again free, no parts or labor, when the first one they put in failed after 20 months. I think the BMW factory rebiult trans was about $2,400US but that was a few years ago.

[SharkmanBMW]

I would at least call Kirt and ask for his input... he really knows his ****.
Maybe the shop should talk with him, not to say they can't handle it, but if they are suddenly overwhelmed by all the components of a german car, they make me wonder about their ability.

I had my 540 done, the shop knew exactly what I was talking about (slipping reverse) they had done it before, and were not "surprised" by all the parts that a jap car may not have in common!
I would never let a regular shop touch it unless they could verbally explain to me the details of the procedure, one little slip up and the tranny won't work, and you may never realize why!

Speak to Kirt, he can detail it all for you and make you feel better about understanding what is going on.

[genphreak]

I'd call ZF australia and do some web research to see how many cars they know the 4HP22 series of trannies is in- as it is rubbish that it is over-complex. ZF are one of the best, if not the best tranny manufacturer in the world. If someone can claim that, perhaps you could ask them why they are not advising the F1 Teams on changing trannies before the Melbourne Grand Prix in a couple of week's time?

From the previous posts you could see that an A-clutch (D1 and R) can be easily done at home by a mechanic with a manual. I hope that this is evidence that they are not charging $2300 to do just that, but even it can be done wrong.

Winfred's write-up will let you see where they might have gone wrong, unless they pulled the rest of it down as one would hope and made an error inside the main casing itself.

What is with their blame on the car? OK, so all electronic trannies are complex in comparison to old mechanical/hydraulic ones, but only if you dont understand the electronics. It sounds to me like they are pissed off though and I hope NOT for the following reasons:

They say they are specilaists but do everyhting
They think they are top-notch, but have never touched a Bimmer (ZFs come in may other cars)
They are claiming complexity as;

- they don't have the right manuals
- they didn't realise on a Bimmer taking the tranny out means removing the exhaust- a pain when after putting it back in the thing has a problem.
- they didn't fix something that needed to be fixed, or broke someting else in the process.

If a 4HP22 is complex, perhaps they'd be happier working on a 5HP18 or a 6HPwhatever where there are 20% more gears to deal with...

Unfortunately there are lots of tranny places out there trying to do more than the average Ford Falcon or GM Commodore, wihtout the expertise. This shop might not be the same, but perhaps the right technician was not doing your car either.

However if you are in a hole now, best way to climb out could be to write an email to the boss, requesting assurance that their blame (and declartion of complexity regarding one of the world most standard and popular transmissions (used by BMW/Merd/Audi/Volvo/SAAB/Jaguar/Rover/Ford etc. and whoever else on many of their best-selling vehicles)) does not seem to be consistent with their assertion of specialisation in euro (of which ZF is the biggest of all euro manufacturers) transmissions.

I would ask that he personally ensure the job is done particularly well done as your confidence is now understandably rattled and any resultatnt problems willl be obvious and mean the car will be returning pronto. Your expectation in the beginning was exactly that, are they wanting you to change this now? Increase pressure perhaps by suggesting that if they have any queries, they might like to take the opportunity to take some extra time to make sure it is right, as you are now concerned something might not be done well.

Suggest also that any technical problems could be resolved by consulting the manual, readily available on CD from ZF, or even ZF themselves over the phone. Any references to other sources is dangerous (even if they are as excellent as Kirt or Winfred) as they could blame them should you have a problem later- so you should not be the one to suggest third parties.

Of course if it is really too hard they could send it out to have it done by an expert- and you would respect that as an appropriate way to ensure the right job is done.

One more warning, be wary to get the same transmission back- jic they wreck yours and replace it with one from somewhere else without telling you... they have serials numbers on them, and your dealer can look it up and tell you what it should be- plus give you the history whilst you are at it (I think it does cost).

Cynical bastard I might be, but ripped off you should not get.

Also, ensure they use Castrol Transmax Z (synthetic) and no other, as it is the only thing apart from Dexron II that ZF approves. It is better than Dexron and will make the tranny work better and last longer. If it get Dexron in the beginning, you have to flush many times with syntehtic to remove it, and this is costly stuff at $80/4L or so. After this though, if you don't trust them you might want to be there when they fill it to know that is in fact what they use. Mobil 1 is not approved at all, Mobil do not offer any guarantees regarding compatibility.

I know to anyone in the trade all this sounds like overkill, but there are so many back-yard know it alls in Aus, one has to be super-careful jic one hits one. There are many great things in our culture, but a few aren't including some I've seen going round many shops time and time again, ie near enough is good enough and 'she'll be right' on things that seem too hard to go back and do again. This one is downright dangerous for the person paying the bill... :) Nick

[F4Phantom]

yeah i dont know exactly how this will pan out, I will give them the extra time they asked for. If all is well they have said it is a 2yr warranty. If I was them I would not do a low quality job as 2 years of thrashing a tranny is a long time and potentially every customer could thrash their car for the next 2 years. I am really glad to hear the trans is not a weak piece of crap as I got that feeling from these guys. I like to see our car as stong and well made. FIY the BMW here wanted between 4 and 7k for a rebuild - out of the question.

[F4Phantom]

Hey thanks genphreak, I will call them tommorow morning and request Castrol Transmax Z. Obviously if they only buy dexron II they will want to use it, I probably should pay extra for the castrol?? Mate sorry about all these questions I suppose where all this comes from is the phone call where things may get ugly I want to know exactly my rights and what to demand and also what is fair. Requesting the best oil though I dont see as going to far.

[Incantation]

ditto on this advice

[genphreak]

Hey thanks genphreak, I will call them tommorow morning and request Castrol Transmax Z. Obviously if they only buy dexron II they will want to use it, I probably should pay extra for the castrol?? Mate sorry about all these questions I suppose where all this comes from is the phone call where things may get ugly I want to know exactly my rights and what to demand and also what is fair. Requesting the best oil though I dont see as going to far.I think from your Point of View the best plan of action is to insure against a poor job -and at least to understand where and why the problem is occurring and help where you can to get a result, and insure they understand that they will be held accountable. e.g. Is it the technician doing the job up to the task, (and has this changed, and if so is the new person demonstrably better), or is it a matter of shop culture or an out of touch boss driving the guys too hard to get work... it is always good to visit and be 'in with the boss' but also to be helpful all along so the way is greased for the best solution. Talk and understand, but be sure the boss is resourcing the job properly from the business' PoV. Of course sensitivity is key, you probably don't want this to reflect on the guy that is trying to help you from the start, but either way you need proper assurance that the job will be done right. Just one thing, I would never rely on somebody's warranty for assurance; a reputation has to be earned whereas a warranty can be given any time under and under certain conditions and is only worth the commitment the giver applies. How many kms? for example

[F4Phantom]

Unlimited. Also your right, I had a talk to the ower of the company who started it in the early 90's during the recession. I clearly got the feeling he was not earning stacks, loved his small company and was keenly interested in keeping his good name by top quality work. This is why I originally went with him over a few others I also got quotes from. One "specialist" told me the trans was fine and to go to an auto elec!! So again I did make a partial judgement and choose these guys. I will see how it goes and report the results. Thanks for everyone's advice thus far, it gives me a very level opinion of how this next step should work and what I should expect. THANKKKKKSSSSSS

[Bill R.]

zf for the 4hp22 series http://www.bimmernut.com/%7Ebillr/images2/4hptrans1.jpg


http://www.bimmernut.com/%7Ebillr/images2/4hptrans-2.jpg
http://www.bimmernut.com/%7Ebillr/images2/4hptrans3.jpg

http://www.bimmernut.com/%7Ebillr/images2/4hptrans4.jpg
I'd call ZF australia and do some web research to see how many cars they know the 4HP22 series of trannies is in- as it is rubbish that it is over-complex. ZF are one of the best, if not the best tranny manufacturer in the world. If someone can claim that, perhaps you could ask them why they are not advising the F1 Teams on changing trannies before the Melbourne Grand Prix in a couple of week's time?

From the previous posts you could see that an A-clutch (D1 and R) can be easily done at home by a mechanic with a manual. I hope that this is evidence that they are not charging $2300 to do just that, but even it can be done wrong.

Winfred's write-up will let you see where they might have gone wrong, unless they pulled the rest of it down as one would hope and made an error inside the main casing itself.

What is with their blame on the car? OK, so all electronic trannies are complex in comparison to old mechanical/hydraulic ones, but only if you dont understand the electronics. It sounds to me like they are pissed off though and I hope NOT for the following reasons:

They say they are specilaists but do everyhting
They think they are top-notch, but have never touched a Bimmer (ZFs come in may other cars)
They are claiming complexity as;

- they don't have the right manuals
- they didn't realise on a Bimmer taking the tranny out means removing the exhaust- a pain when after putting it back in the thing has a problem.
- they didn't fix something that needed to be fixed, or broke someting else in the process.

If a 4HP22 is complex, perhaps they'd be happier working on a 5HP18 or a 6HPwhatever where there are 20% more gears to deal with...

Unfortunately there are lots of tranny places out there trying to do more than the average Ford Falcon or GM Commodore, wihtout the expertise. This shop might not be the same, but perhaps the right technician was not doing your car either.

However if you are in a hole now, best way to climb out could be to write an email to the boss, requesting assurance that their blame (and declartion of complexity regarding one of the world most standard and popular transmissions (used by BMW/Merd/Audi/Volvo/SAAB/Jaguar/Rover/Ford etc. and whoever else on many of their best-selling vehicles)) does not seem to be consistent with their assertion of specialisation in euro (of which ZF is the biggest of all euro manufacturers) transmissions.

I would ask that he personally ensure the job is done particularly well done as your confidence is now understandably rattled and any resultatnt problems willl be obvious and mean the car will be returning pronto. Your expectation in the beginning was exactly that, are they wanting you to change this now? Increase pressure perhaps by suggesting that if they have any queries, they might like to take the opportunity to take some extra time to make sure it is right, as you are now concerned something might not be done well.

Suggest also that any technical problems could be resolved by consulting the manual, readily available on CD from ZF, or even ZF themselves over the phone. Any references to other sources is dangerous (even if they are as excellent as Kirt or Winfred) as they could blame them should you have a problem later- so you should not be the one to suggest third parties.

Of course if it is really too hard they could send it out to have it done by an expert- and you would respect that as an appropriate way to ensure the right job is done.

One more warning, be wary to get the same transmission back- jic they wreck yours and replace it with one from somewhere else without telling you... they have serials numbers on them, and your dealer can look it up and tell you what it should be- plus give you the history whilst you are at it (I think it does cost).

Cynical bastard I might be, but ripped off you should not get.

Also, ensure they use Castrol Transmax Z (synthetic) and no other, as it is the only thing apart from Dexron II that ZF approves. It is better than Dexron and will make the tranny work better and last longer. If it get Dexron in the beginning, you have to flush many times with syntehtic to remove it, and this is costly stuff at $80/4L or so. After this though, if you don't trust them you might want to be there when they fill it to know that is in fact what they use. Mobil 1 is not approved at all, Mobil do not offer any guarantees regarding compatibility.

I know to anyone in the trade all this sounds like overkill, but there are so many back-yard know it alls in Aus, one has to be super-careful jic one hits one. There are many great things in our culture, but a few aren't including some I've seen going round many shops time and time again, ie near enough is good enough and 'she'll be right' on things that seem too hard to go back and do again. This one is downright dangerous for the person paying the bill... Nick

[genphreak]

Unlimited. Also your right, I had a talk to the ower of the company who started it in the early 90's during the recession. I clearly got the feeling he was not earning stacks, loved his small company and was keenly interested in keeping his good name by top quality work. This is why I originally went with him over a few others I also got quotes from. One "specialist" told me the trans was fine and to go to an auto elec!! So again I did make a partial judgement and choose these guys. I will see how it goes and report the results. Thanks for everyone's advice thus far, it gives me a very level opinion of how this next step should work and what I should expect. THANKKKKKSSSSSSNo worries phantom, we are with ya, I am sure they will fix it for you, one can say all sorts of things about Bee eM Troubleuews in the heat of the moment- the main reason for this however is not the car, it is anger at oneself for not realising it should go in this way, or in that order or with this adjustment not the one you stupidly thought... and it is only after you cleaned your hands and checked the manual that you found out the whole thing is going to have to come apart again or else that bit in the middle will be toast once you take her for a drive.

Mate, with any luck I bet on Friday that was how they were feeling.... either way; all the best of luck this week getting a result.

Perhaps a good thing to do is to tell them not to worry about the delay, just to make sure its done right and you'll be sure to show your appreciation (case of beer is good). They might even fill her up with synthetic just to be nice (btw Castrol Transmax Z is green, Dexron is red). :) Nick