ECU Transistor question

[ArtemLepilov]

Looking for specifications and replacement suggestions for a Bosch main output coil transistor - T506, but they are all the same. 815 2791 Bosch 30014. (I dont know which number is the serial number of the transistor)


-Artem

[Rustam]

Looking for specifications and replacement suggestions for a Bosch main output coil transistor - T506, but they are all the same. 815 2791 Bosch 30014. (I dont know which number is the serial number of the transistor)


-Artem

I mentioned digikey.com in one of my previous posts to you - have you looked there?

A picture of that transistor with its numbers/symbols/letters would be nice thing to see...

[ArtemLepilov]

umm... I dont have it out - I put the ECU back in the car to drive home... I can draw it.

Transistor doesnt look any different than the pthers, but it may still be damaged?

-Artem

[ArtemLepilov]

Im assuming that symbol means Bosch? I looked on digikey but couldnt find an equivalent.

-Artem

[Rustam]

umm... I dont have it out - I put the ECU back in the car to drive home... I can draw it.

Transistor doesnt look any different than the pthers, but it may still be damaged?

-Artem

1-a transitor may very well be damaged without showing it on its outside
2-do you mean to tell me that you drive your car with dead cylinder #4? have you disconnected the injector? gasoline damages catalytic converter!
3-the symbol is not of Bosch. I doubt that they manufacture semiconductors anyway.

[ArtemLepilov]

Yea, I dont really care about the cats at this point - I need to replace it anyway - its never been replaced to my knowledge.

Im about to do a complete rework of the car... by using the parts 525I to supply parts anyway.



-Artem

[ArtemLepilov]

http://www.boschappliances.com/

--> the symbol right next to the "BOSCH" thats the symbol on the chip...


-Artem

[Rustam]

Yea, I dont really care about the cats at this point - I need to replace it anyway - its never been replaced to my knowledge.

Im about to do a complete rework of the car... by using the parts 525I to supply parts anyway.



-Artem

I am looking for "semiconductors","transistors","2n2791" on the internet. Let me know if you find anything relevant among semiconductor manufacturers.

It would be nice to be able to somehow get a multitude of manufacturer's names to look for that icon so the manufacturer may be matched with your transistor...

[ArtemLepilov]

Yea... I will look around - I serached everything for the serial... I got no idea where else to go. Ill look around a litle more.

Thanks for loking around for me :)

-Artem

[Rustam]

Yea... I will look around - I serached everything for the serial... I got no idea where else to go. Ill look around a litle more.

Thanks for loking around for me :)

-Artem

maybe best (easiest) thing to do is to go to local electronics repair shop and ask about this transistor - maybe they can get it? or provide advice where to look?

I believe you are looking for 2n2791 transistor

keep me posted...

[ArtemLepilov]

Thats what I was going to do tomorrow morning.
While im at it ill post a few pics of the transistor...

-Artem

[Rustam]

http://www.boschappliances.com/

--> the symbol right next to the "BOSCH" thats the symbol on the chip...


-Artem

the symbol that you provided on your drawing is missing horizontal lines connecting the semicircles - i cannot say that is Bosch. If you would put those into the image I would say that it is "Bosch"...

At this point I am very lost as to validity of your claim that the picture (or at least the logo) of the transisor is "correct".

[ArtemLepilov]

Yea. I drew it from what I could remember, I will take a real picture of the transistor tomorrow whether I get a replacement or not. I believe that the chip looks just like that one... The bosch symbol may be different but everything else is similar. Numbers are exactly the same and exactly where they are...

-Artem

[Rustam]

Thats what I was going to do tomorrow morning.
While im at it ill post a few pics of the transistor...

-Artem

look:

http://www.nteinc.com/specs/100to199/pdf/nte123ap.pdf

fitting characteristics and correct type - cross redference from "2n2791" at this page:

http://nte01.nteinc.com/nte/NTExRefSemiProd.nsf/$$Search?OpenForm

[ArtemLepilov]

That looks VERY similar, but the cros section of our transistors inside motronic units is a rectangle... when this one seems to be a little more of a semi-circle...


-Artem

[Rustam]

Yea. I drew it from what I could remember, I will take a real picture of the transistor tomorrow whether I get a replacement or not. I believe that the chip looks just like that one... The bosch symbol may be different but everything else is similar. Numbers are exactly the same and exactly where they are...

-Artem

Haha - you re insisting this thing was made by bosch?... Well they're certainly not making semiconductirs now - if you go to their starting website you will not find any allusion to semiconductors. I don't believe they ever made them. They are an engineering company - they only design(ed) devices.

[ArtemLepilov]

Yea.. can believe that.. I dont know how to explain the symbol though.. In any case - I think it should be much clearer once I take a picture or two of the transistors.

-Artem

[Rustam]

That looks VERY similar, but the cros section of our transistors inside motronic units is a rectangle... when this one seems to be a little more of a semi-circle...


-Artem

I would not bother worrying about that - this company is different, on different continent, and we are at least 15 years away from the point of production of your dme.

Its possible for two same semiconductor devices to have different body type.

[ArtemLepilov]

Hmm, alright. I will look around the electronic store tomorrow Luckily I have these guys right next to my house: www.you-do-it.com

-Artem

[Rustam]

Hmm, alright. I will look around the electronic store tomorrow Luckily I have these guys right next to my house: www.you-do-it.com

-Artem

you do that!

[Rustam]

That looks VERY similar, but the cros section of our transistors inside motronic units is a rectangle... when this one seems to be a little more of a semi-circle...


-Artem

you can file off the excess anyway

[grave77]

Usually it's a General Purpose transistor like BD139 the ECU relay doesn't draw much current. any transistor that can handle current around 1A is good. check the volatge on the suspected transistor and see if the middle one gets posative voltage from the one on the left ( if the writing is facing you) then it's an NPN transistor which I think it should be. if it was negative to the one on the left then it's NPN.

[ArtemLepilov]

Thank you very much for the info :) I will try to fix it around tomorrow.

-Artem

[SRR2]

Haha - you re insisting this thing was made by bosch?... I don't believe they ever made them. They are an engineering company - they only design(ed) devices.

Bosch is sort of the "General Electric" of Europe. They've designed and manufactured nearly everything electronic or electrical at one time or another. I'm sure that they no longer manufacture transistors; hardly anyone does because there's not much profit in them.

To the OP: the transistor you're looking for is an NPN Darlington with (IIRC) 20A Icmax, and something like 100-200V Vcemax. It's not easy to find, but I did see an approximate replacement a year or two ago. Unfortunately I don't remember what it was or where I found it. If you're really stuck, and 100% positive that the transistor is bad, post back here and I'll see if I can find it again. I'm pretty sure that it wasn't at DigiKey. They're not common.

[SRR2]

He said it's a coil driver. It's a Darlington 20a ~100-200V. Hard to find.

[grave77]

You can use BU920 or BU921, check the PDF file on the web, or I will email it if anyone interested. the BU921 and 922 have better voltage and current ( 400V & 15A ) it's a Darlington power transistor with protection Diode between collector and emitter.

The newer replacement is the IGBT ( Isolated Gate Bipolar Transistor ) many of the new electronic ignition power stage have it used. simple modifications needed to install it in.

Motorolla produced an owesome chip click here (http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/3789/MOTOROLA/MC3334P.html) to download the Datasheet, sure it's using MJ10012 Darlington power output.

[Rustam]

Hmm, alright. I will look around the electronic store tomorrow Luckily I have these guys right next to my house: www.you-do-it.com

-Artem

there are a couple of "high voltage ignition driver" transistors here:

http://www.datasheetarchive.com/datasheet/pdf/4799.html

consequently stmicroelectronics.com tells that these are available at digikey.com:

http://www.st.com/stonline/stappl/productcatalog/app?path=/pages/stcom/PcStComPartNumberSearch.searchPartNumber&search=bu9

I would call digikey and talk to them having forwarded the picture of that transistor...

[ArtemLepilov]

Wow. Thank you guys :) I will check it out right now - im on my way to the electroncs store.

-Artem

[Bill R.]

logo is clearly visible on the power transistors. This is from an e32 sitehttp://www.bimmernut.com/%7Ebillr/images2/DME_8.jpg




Haha - you re insisting this thing was made by bosch?... Well they're certainly not making semiconductirs now - if you go to their starting website you will not find any allusion to semiconductors. I don't believe they ever made them. They are an engineering company - they only design(ed) devices.

[Rustam]

Wow. Thank you guys :) I will check it out right now - im on my way to the electroncs store.

-Artem

Pay attention to the characteristic "diode forward voltage" - this is the voltage that has to be overcome in order to turn transistor on. The value of 2.5V listed for these transistors is around the point at which logical "0" turns into "1" for integrated circuits. This is what we have here - a chip controls these transistors sending out logical "1" in sequential manner. Values below this voltage - say common .7 for ordinary transistors is no good, since it can be overcome by logical "0" which is not desirable.

[Rustam]

logo is clearly visible on the power transistors. This is from an e32 sitehttp://www.bimmernut.com/%7Ebillr/images2/DME_8.jpg

thank you Bill...

[Rustam]

this person claims that 2N3055 NPN power transistor can be driven digitally to deliver a spark - at least in interesting experiment. At most a statement of usage of alternative transistor - I would try if all else was not available.

http://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/lab/5322/coildrv.htm

perhaps he can be asked a few questions on high power transistor usage - his email is here:

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/5322/hv2.html

good luck - I ll be waiting for your update

[SRR2]

No. The gain isn't high enough. Plus, newer 3055s are triple diffused with a lousy safe operating area. The original 3055 that you'd find in ignition systems were single diffused and could take a pounding without failing. The new ones can't. Most manufacturers changed the process to be able to claim higher gain and higher Vce. Unfortunately, when you actually try to use the higher voltage rating the devices frequently fail in second breakdown.

I'd highly recommend staying away from electronics redesign of very expensive components that are critical to the operation of your car unless you know what you're doing.

[ArtemLepilov]

Yea... That picture is exactly what my transistors look like, except none of them are burnt. Does anyone have a dead ECU that has a wokring transistor and can let go of it for real cheap? :)

I couldnt get a right transistor st the store.. so yea.. i dont know what to do, except for getting a ransistor out of a dead ECU.

-Artem

[grave77]

the closest match was this link (http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/130470/IRF/IRGB4B60KD1.html) , I would also say that you have nothing to loose mate by installing BU922 or BU921 ... it's used for ignition purposes.

I have worked in Elect. ignitions circuit development for 5 years and I would tell you that the worst case is that the one you replaced will die again. give it a try.

My only fear is that it's an IGBT and not a traditional transistor.

run the ECU with an open cover so you would notice what happens.

[Rustam]

I couldnt get a right transistor st the store.. so yea.. i dont know what to do, except for getting a ransistor out of a dead ECU.

-Artem

I don't understand why you say you don't know what to do. Grave pointed out a couple of transistors for ignition purposes, so did I, and in fact you can find them at digikey as was provided in my earlier post - digikey is a call away - why not give one of those transistors a shot given they are purpose designed "coil drivers" that even have correct package???

If it comes to spend $1000us for the setup why not spend a few bucks instead for something of appropriate nature that has a chance to fix the problem?

Call digikey and ask for one of these transistors you have nothing to lose:
http://www.st.com/stonline/stappl/productcatalog/app?path=/pages/stcom/PcStComPartNumberSearch.searchPartNumber&search=bu9

Of course you couldn't find the transistor - some hobby shop store. You need to look into more serious places. You shouldn't be dismayed over the fact that you did not find the thing at that "mom and pop" electronics store.

[Rustam]

My only fear is that it's an IGBT and not a traditional transistor.



I don't think this is good idea...

Arrow sells BU931 for peanuts:
http://www.arrownac.com/aws/pg_webc/0,4513,,00.html?application=SEARCH&event=1000&search_token=BU931&search_criteria=match_begins_with&match_in_stock_only=NO&60552=&rows_to_display=10&full_domain_name=www.arrownac.com&super_neda=60552&start_index=0&search_type=click_through

[grave77]

the best way ArtemLepilov is to test by Ohm meter the other working transistors, if they give a reading like any other darlington then it's a very easy job. I think those ECUs were way older than using IGBTs.

the pins should be B C E starting from the left. NPN should have the E on the ground ( Common ) or via a very small resistance 0.33 Ohms.

[ArtemLepilov]

Well. I got an M20 525I with a stock ECU on it. Would a transistor form it work in my car?

I know what to do, but the packages on the transistors you gave me dont match exactly. I may ask my ECE (electrical and computer engineering) department to see if they have any transistors like that - they seem to have everything possible.


-Artem

[Rustam]

Well. I got an M20 525I with a stock ECU on it. Would a transistor form it work in my car?

I know what to do, but the packages on the transistors you gave me dont match exactly. I may ask my ECE (electrical and computer engineering) department to see if they have any transistors like that - they seem to have everything possible.


-Artem

?

The packaging of the transistor bares little consequence on its electrical performance. What matters is the characteristics - if these are compatible you can use them so long as you connect base to base emitter to emitter collector to collector thats it...

I really don't see what the issue is here.

For this matter the answer to your first question is the following: "the transistor from motrinic 1.3 will work in 3.1 unit so long as its electrical characteristics are compatible". At that point that transistior may look however it wishes to look like - plastic, ceramic, square, donut, cylindrical packaging - inconsequestial.

I doubt that you will be able to find this very transistor in school. Your best bet is above mentioned BU931 - which, in fact, does have "correct" packaging...

Good luck!

[Rustam]

Hey, you've asked earlier if someone can get you ECU for "cheap". Have you considered junk yards?

I like this site becasue its neat, has extensive catalog, and searches all over many US junk yards:

http://www.car-part.com/

6 transistors in one ECU - good chances of getting an operational one...

[ArtemLepilov]

Haha I know - I will have a 5-spd 525I M20... I dunno if it will have a transistor in it, but I will see tomorrow.

-Artem

[grave77]

not really, also as I mentioned before BU933, 922, 921 are rated as 15A, 350V IF you think that the coil draws 20A current that means it's going to heat up and crack its plastic case and fail, so what is going on is that the current is limited to 8A max. IF you want it a 20A with high volatge use a MOSFET with a resistor connected between the Gate and the ground it will be just like a Darlington transistor. even more efficient.

[ArtemLepilov]

soo.. would an M20 525I ECU have transistors in it that I can use?

-Artem

[grave77]

Any ignition transistor would do. Yes it would ... your issue is not critical ... ur just making it a big deal with ur hesitation ... go for it.

[ArtemLepilov]

I need to pick up the car first :p

And that will be a few hours... :)

-Artem

[ArtemLepilov]

I have two transistors similar to these:

http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/BU/BUT11F.pdf

Im going to try one in my ECU.

-Artem

[ArtemLepilov]

NVM - Found a BOSCH 406 4389 30004 in the same ECU. Going to try that.

[grave77]

that wouldn't work .. I told you you will need a Darlington transistor, this one has a very low " hfe " in English Gain ... this will load the low current components in the ECU and toast it. also this is a 10A surge 5A normal. that will not work. a void the hussle and get the one we pointed to u ... BU922 if you can't get it I will ship you one ... it's very cheap ...

[grave77]

good luck ... just dont use the one you posted its datasheet.

[ArtemLepilov]

I swapped the transistors and I didnt get a change - still no spark. I need wiring harness or something else in the circuit is messed up, or I dont even know - wiring tested out OK... I can get a new harness for rather cheap, so I will probably end up going with that.

-Artem

[Rustam]

I swapped the transistors and I didnt get a change - still no spark. I need wiring harness or something else in the circuit is messed up, or I dont even know - wiring tested out OK... I can get a new harness for rather cheap, so I will probably end up going with that.

-Artem

GRAVE77 said that its not going to work just above... This transistor has different characteristics.

[grave77]

if you used the Bosch and didn't work you probably have a bad coil. to make sure it is bad you replace it with a 12V 22W bulb and start the car if the bulb glows continuously without any fast blinks then you have a problem in your ECU and sorry to tell you that your not able to troubleshoot it as it needs someone with good knowledge to do so. if it blinked then the coil is dead and causing more current draw that made the transistor burn.

one main rule in electronics is " don't replace components unless you know the cause !! "

[ArtemLepilov]

I used the bosch, coils are good - i tested this one with a different connector.

-Artem

[grave77]

I can't help you more than what I did. have u tested the terminals with a bulb? I think you need a professional help as u need to see the signal coming to the Base of the transistor. if it was a MOSFET no transistor would work unless you made major modifications to drive the signal.
you might have the protection diode shorted or the protection capacitor shorted too. nothing you can do more mate, am sorry.

[ArtemLepilov]

Heh, thanks for help though. I can get a few ECUs over here, test them out... Ill check the wiring over again tomorrow and get back at you all later about the ECU.

-Artem