Nitrous oxide and the M30: deadly or doable?

[Jay 535i]

Okay, so I've seen those clips on Top Gear. You know the ones. They put nitrous in a 20-year-old Jaguar or a diesel Golf and it slays supercars. (Really, if you haven't seen it, they've got a clapped-out XJ-S and a diesel Mk2 Golf into the low 13s with no other mods except for binning the interior. The two cars outdragged a 996 911 Turbo and an NSX, respectively.)

I want my engine to last a long time, and I know those guys on Top Gear don't care if it lasts five minutes, but is any amount of nitrous safe for an unmodified M30?

I'm not an expert, but I figure that nitrous generates more power by adding more oxygen into the combustion chamber. Same, really, as a turbocharger. So of the M30 can handle small amounts of boost without modification (which it can), then can't it also handle some nitrous?

I don't want to go crazy or kill my car, but even a 50-hp squirt would be a nice thing to have.

Or are there other downsides to using nitrous with the M30? Is installation/setup a major pain?

I want to know the pros and cons. It seems to me that a small shot of nitrous ought to be harmless, but I don't want to bet my engine on it.

[winfred]

the problem is good distribution through the manifold, most cheep nos systems are designed for "wet mainfolds" where they are designed to flow fuel and air evenly to all cylinders and a little more fuel and air (nos = oxidizer) from a single injector works good, the bmw uses a "dry manifold" that wasn't designed to deliver a fuel charge, imho the safest system would be one with a fuel/nos nozzle in every port just like the factory injectors, but that style of system is not cheep, easy to install or for small power increases, now people have run cheepo nos on 535s for years and i suppose a few melted pistons have resulted from pushing the limmits over the years, you just need to research what the safe limmit is for a cheep system and realize it's a dice roll

[Derek A.]

Ironically - the BWW Enthusiasts guide - does an NOS install on an e28 535is. Got some decent numbers out of it.

[winfred]

didn't say it wasn't possible


Ironically - the BWW Enthusiasts guide - does an NOS install on an e28 535is. Got some decent numbers out of it.

[632 Regal]

yea, I'd rather try it out on your car or something first. Might be able to tap some individuals into the intake runners?
didn't say it wasn't possible

[winfred]

shouldn't be too hard to thread some fogger nozzles into your m60 as it has that LT1 looking intake:D


yea, I'd rather try it out on your car or something first. Might be able to tap some individuals into the intake runners?

[Derek A.]

70 hp shot - netted a 1.22 sec quicker 0-60 time on the e28 car.

[bahnstormer]

yah i wouldn't run much over 50hp wet shot....

[Bimminator]

Hey Jay,

Did you do your valve job yet? Just wondering how it went if you did.

Shawn.

[Jay 535i]

Hey Jay,

Did you do your valve job yet? Just wondering how it went if you did.

Shawn.

Not yet. I ordered some new bolts for the oil spray bar. As soon as they arrive I'll tackle the job.

Thanks for the input guys. It sounds like a modest NOS shot might be doable, but I'll leave it for at least a few more months.

[Rustam]

the problem is good distribution through the manifold, most cheep nos systems are designed for "wet mainfolds" where they are designed to flow fuel and air evenly to all cylinders and a little more fuel and air (nos = oxidizer) from a single injector works good, the bmw uses a "dry manifold" that wasn't designed to deliver a fuel charge, imho the safest system would be one with a fuel/nos nozzle in every port just like the factory injectors, but that style of system is not cheep, easy to install or for small power increases, now people have run cheepo nos on 535s for years and i suppose a few melted pistons have resulted from pushing the limmits over the years, you just need to research what the safe limmit is for a cheep system and realize it's a dice roll

why bother installing a nozzle into every port if one can simply put one before the throttle plate?

[Rustam]

Not yet. I ordered some new bolts for the oil spray bar. As soon as they arrive I'll tackle the job.

Thanks for the input guys. It sounds like a modest NOS shot might be doable, but I'll leave it for at least a few more months.

don't forget the price of refilling that NOS tank

[winfred]

good distribution so that one or more cylinders doesn't go lean and melt, the bmw intake wasn't designed with fuel flowing through it in mind, and you can't add a oxidizer without something to burn so you need fuel too, a single nozzle spraying into the throttle body is not efficiant with all of that complex manifold piping for the mixture to condence on the walls of and dribble into the ports, yes it can make some power much over 40-50 and you are seriously asking for detenation, the $400-500 spent on a nos system (plus what you spend on filling the bottle) could be better put to use on regular mods that are with you all of the time and are less abt to malfunction and hammer your motor


why bother installing a nozzle into every port if one can simply put one before the throttle plate?

[ZQ8Dude]

Not to bring up a dead thread, but i was curious on the subject of nitrous and i have to ask, what about using a water/alky injection in conjunction with nitrous??

I know the water inject kits help to prevent knocking/pinging and alot of people use them on turbo applications so they can run more boost.

[gmannino]

So basically running NOS thru the factory intake system, whether it be the intake itself or the intake manifold will not work because, BMW did not design the intake system to have fuel running through it.

I have an m20 and wondered how a small hint of NOS would work well when in need of more power. But after thinking about it, I cannot figure out where I would install the fogger besides directly into the cylinders. Is there any other way to run an effecient NOS system?

[Jay 535i]

So basically running NOS thru the factory intake system, whether it be the intake itself or the intake manifold will not work because, BMW did not design the intake system to have fuel running through it.

This is the part I don't understand (okay, I don't understand lots of things...).

NOS is a gas. So is the air in the atmosphere. So how does NOS cause problems in the intake? It's just adding oxygen, after all, not liquid fuel.

[Bimmer Nut Ed]

Don't forget, Gas is gas too. It all depends on what pressure they are under, and what temperature they are at (eg, liquid nitrogen).

[Qube]

Hmmm... http://www.bimmer.info/forum/showthread.php?t=17761&highlight=sneaky+pete

[nizmainiac]

have you seen the top gear where they drive that nitroused jag off an air-craft carrier

[BillionPa]

i would think that installing a fogger inside the top of the air box would have the best distribution of NOS for the incoming air charge, assuming you dont have a turbo or supercharger. although i have no idea how that would effect the MAF... at WOT is it even used?

[632 Regal]

Nos is a vapor when it is released into an area and Gas is liquid. what Nitrous does is "trick" the engine into thinking it can burn more fuel thus is why you need to dump more fuel equally into the cylinders. the added fuel can burn with Nos and give more power...without more fuel you will have catastrophic meltdown. Nos cant be added without more fuel and if you dump gas into the intake it will puddle on the bottom and you WILL meltdown.


This is the part I don't understand (okay, I don't understand lots of things...).

NOS is a gas. So is the air in the atmosphere. So how does NOS cause problems in the intake? It's just adding oxygen, after all, not liquid fuel.

[Jay 535i]

Nos is a vapor when it is released into an area and Gas is liquid. what Nitrous does is "trick" the engine into thinking it can burn more fuel thus is why you need to dump more fuel equally into the cylinders. the added fuel can burn with Nos and give more power...without more fuel you will have catastrophic meltdown. Nos cant be added without more fuel and if you dump gas into the intake it will puddle on the bottom and you WILL meltdown.

But can't you add NOS at the intake and the fuel at the injector? Do the two have to be introduced at exactly the same time, or is it enough that they just meet in the combustion chamber?

[632 Regal]

as long as they meet in the chamber should be good. The better setup has 2 ports for each cylinder, one for the fuel and one for nitrous and a seperate fuelpump to supply the additional demand.

But can't you add NOS at the intake and the fuel at the injector? Do the two have to be introduced at exactly the same time, or is it enough that they just meet in the combustion chamber?

[BillionPa]

install a propane tank and inject the gas in unison with the nitrous after the AFM??

[BillionPa]

or is that just a stupid idea?

[632 Regal]

whats the propane to Nos ratio?
or is that just a stupid idea?

[ZQ8Dude]

So, no wet kit..that sucks.

[Blitzkrieg Bob]

I always hit the whipped cream cans when they run out.

[Flamin'Cow]

Dear All,

I speak having had experience of NoS. Not a crappy 'Zex' kit or any of the other 'cheap' brands, but a good 'ol Nitrous Oxide Solutions kit.

Admittedly, it was not with a BMW, rather a Rover 620Si, but I'll tell you my story.

After modding this car a great deal, I finally decided that a shot of NoS would be a good way of increasing my BHP, without destroying the everyday usability of the car.

Nitrous works by injecting ultra-cold (-150 Degrees Centigrade) gas into the air-intake (on NA engines). As any school-boy will tell you, the colder the air entering the engine, the higher the output of said engine is. Add to this the fact that NoS (when the bottle is full) is at a pressure of 1500PSI and you can imagine the wonderful gains that can be had. (hell most turbo cars only run 7-20 pounds of boost). When you buy the kit you get a selection of different nozzles which allow progressively larger ammounts of gas to enter the engine. Usually 25, 50, 75, 100, 150 BHP.

The engine was a stock 2.0 litre SOHC 16V running about 140 BHP standard. To begin with I opted for the 25 HP boost (as the guy at NoS said I could happily increase the output of the engine by 50% before I started doing damage, but as the engine had done 140,000miles I didn't want to push it too much).

N.B. - Engine had K&N filter, new serpentine Cam-Belts, and was serviced regularly (new Oil & filters every 3 months).

Nitrous helps with acceleration. It does not make you car go faster (as the Fast & the Furious would have you believe) - It just gets you there quicker.

N.B. - You have to use 98 RON (superunleaded) or better to get the full effect from your NoS - 95 is fine, just add a bottle of fuel octane booster (or 2) per 1/2 a tank.

The first time I used NoS (from a standing start) My clutch slipped so much that smoke started pouring out of the engine bay and old ladies with Zimmer frames were overtaking me.......

So, back to my local tuning shop and a new 'Sports Clutch' was ordered and installed. I also took this opportunity to install the 50 HP jet....

So, I went back to the shop and picked up my beast - full of excitement. Found myself a nice stretch of long deserted road and BOY! it sure did give the old girl some poke. Indeed, it probably de-coked my engine rather well too as there was loads of black smoke coming out of my exhaust. Unfortunately, the increase in pressure also poked out the cam-shaft oil seal and shredded both front CV boots.

I limped back to the shop loosing about 1 gallon of oil per mile.

So, new CV gaiters and oil seal 'pushed' back in with the help of a screw-driver - This was getting interesting.

I think at this point I went slightly mad.....

NoS gets you like that you see, you start off thinking "hey I only want a small increase in power - and I wont use it all the time" - next thing you know you are going for bigger and bigger jets and holding the button for longer and longer.

N.B. - The nice man at NoS advises that you don't hold the button for more than 10-15 seconds at a time and that you leave AT LEAST 300 miles of 'normal' running between each 'boost'.

So, in went the 150 jet.

140BHP standard + 150BHP of NoS = nearly 300BHP - which on reflection was a really stupid thing to do with standard running gear.

The next time I used the NoS I broke the Cardinal rule - I held the button depressed for about 1 minute - indeed I emptied an entire tank of NoS in one go.... Then the car started running a bit rough so I pulled over to the side of the road to inspect the damage. Unfortunately, that is where it stayed as afterwards I could not engage any gears.

What had happened? - My new clutch's release bearing had exploded inside the gear-box bell-housing sending loads of shards of metal into the clutch-plate. This had then shattered, sending more metal and crap into the gear-box which had then, in-turn, stripped the teeth off of just about every gear (except 5th - which was kinda welded to the drive shafts)

Take my advice - don't get NoS, there are many better (and safer) ways of getting more horses out of your engine than by giving it Nitrous.

Hope that helps,

FLAMINCOW

[Traian]

That's an awesome story.
(well, I mean, the car imploding is not awesome....sorry about your car btw :( )
What you're saying is as long as he doesn't get addicted he's fine?

[Flamin'Cow]

Nitrous is like a drug, you can never have enough - and therein lies the problem. As you can only use it for short periods of time and must leave a gap of around 300 miles (or one week) between each use - it kinda defeats its own object.

Thinking back, I shoulda spent that £1000 on getting the head skimmed, perhaps a stainless manifold, even a superchip.

I hear that its possible to add the turbo from a 525 TD onto a petrol 535 engine - why not do that? - At least you'd be able to have a dump valve and make that cool 'ssssshhhhh' noise everytime you change gear.

NoS is okay if you engine is HIGHLY modified, strengthened pistons, con-rods etc etc etc etc etc. Although the BMW 'Big-Sixes' are bullet proof - I dont think NoS would do you any good.

[Qube]

Turbo it is ;)

[Jay 535i]

and must leave a gap of around 300 miles (or one week) between each use

That's news to me. I didn't know you had to let so much time pass between boosts. If that's the case, I agree completely that it's pointless.

[ZQ8Dude]

Sounds to me like you did use a "cheap zex kit"....seems kinda dumb imo because ive heard great things about zex and worse about NoS.

I see nothing about a window switch or WOT switch to prevent you from blowing your motor and doing something dumb.


Anyways im still curious. wet kit go or nogo on the M30??

[TC535i]

Ironically - the BWW Enthusiasts guide - does an NOS install on an e28 535is. Got some decent numbers out of it.

I know the guy that article was written about, Dan Tackett. Bigtime BMW CCA guy, comes out to the autocrosses all the time in San Diego. Drifts his E46 M3 all around the course with a shiteating grin plastered on his face, great guy to hang out with, and a helluva driver.

[TC535i]

What's this crap about 300 miles or one week between uses? That makes no sense at all... If I get into the throttle and my supercharger starts boosting, should I make sure I drive it really easy below 3000rpm for the next week??

[Flamin'Cow]

No this is only with Nitrous. Obviously you done 'have' to leave any time at all between uses - but the man from NoS says that bugger your engine up really quickly....

[BillionPa]

hes just saying that to avoid a lawsuit or something

[TheEndIsNear]

Every time you hit that little button you take a year off the life of your stock motor... When motors are designed, N2O is not a factor! N20 greatly raises the heat in the combustion chamber doing significant damage or excessive wear to pistons, piston rings, valves, cylinder heads, and even the block. I've run N2O on several of my cars. When I raced my 780BHP Mustang I ran the NOS 150 shot on the button and a constant 25 fog... Granted that's a lot of boost but it was new rings, valves and head gasket every 100 or so times on the drag strip. I love NOS but be prepared to modify or loose your engine and remember with NOS comes extra maintenance. That's my rant... Remember as great of a engine BMW builds they are not engineered to be beat on quite that hard. The reason the salesman said to wait so long between boosts is the more often you run it the faster it wears your motor, you car run it several times a day, just keep in mind every time you do your car looses a little life.

[ZQ8Dude]

Ive heard that if its properly tuned it is no more dangerous then forced induction.

Whichever bmw i end up buying in the future, my plan is to do a nitrous setup on it w/ water injection to help stop any knocking. Right now its looking like a 525i is my best option since its seems like the 535i motor cant handle a wet kit.

[genphreak]

What's this crap about 300 miles or one week between uses? That makes no sense at all... If I get into the throttle and my supercharger starts boosting, should I make sure I drive it really easy below 3000rpm for the next week??The SC is not capable of producing the same combustion temperatures. With NOS heat and mixture management are king.

With so much fuel burning, the cooling system (let alone oil system) cannot keep up. 15 seconds creates a spike of heat that can be sunk into the block and so on if the engine is not at the upper end of its operational and ambient ranges. The problem is that (typically) all the extra combustion is critically dangerous as it is less well managed (you need more than a Motec brain, you needs sensors and controls to manage all that and keep it safe). Enough of that extra fuel required therefore turns into heat instead of torque and causes a problem. Often, because the engine block was never designed to be developing so much heat energy, so there is insufficient tolerance for any prolonged N20 use.

I guess someone might say that the '15-sec blast' could create burnt residues inside the cylinders and valves that need to be worked through (to oil filter and atmosphere) before they start clagging lubrication and causing real damage.

I think a prolonged blast just risks combustion chamber/piston temps going significantly beyond their design limits; a la 'meltdown' and catastrophic wear.

Cheap power upgrades don't exist; at least not with mass-produced cars they don't. Turbo is the only way to go for serious poke< and even then, you also need to do cooling, EMS, exhaust, brakes... most peeps just don't get that little can be done in 'isolation'.