Project Apocolyps

[RTLoui]

Hey guys, I'm trying to get advice from as many people as possible because I'm going to perform the impossible. I'm in the middle of building a 1200rwhp 5 series. So far its an M30 head with a custom 290 cam with an 11.2 mil lift, custom racing light weight rockers from korman, billet rocker retainers, triple titanium valve springs, ported and polished, an M102 block with custom hyperstrength rods, and intake manifold i am biulding with equal length runners and 12 injector slots, and an M5 drivtrain on the way. there is more but i realized it was too small for my aplication after I bought it so if anyone needs spare parts including performance parts ask away. All I ask is for small advice on how to suck hidden horsepower on these engines because I know their capabilities, and boy can they pump power, even reliably. I'll be responding to any replies daily and i hope this turns out to be a very large thread because there are still untold secrets of the turbo m30.:D

[winfred]

oh yea the m30 has huge potential the csl racers had 425-475 hp normally asperated, good luck

[RTLoui]

oh yea I frogot to mention the small little t-100 goin in there

[RTLoui]

I should have pictures of the built head in here within the next couple days and oh yea I have enough E30 spare parts to build another car so if anyone needs them I'll be more than happy to get rid of them. Plus this is the car that I'm trying to go after because this car is an animal.
http://www.vsmotor.no/en_pictures.html

[kyleN20]

do you have e30 front airdam, for a 1990?

[RTLoui]

Sorry I gave it to my dad for his rebuild.:(

[Jon K]

Hey guys, I'm trying to get advice from as many people as possible because I'm going to perform the impossible. I'm in the middle of building a 1200rwhp 5 series. So far its an M30 head with a custom 290 cam with an 11.2 mil lift, custom racing light weight rockers from korman, billet rocker retainers, triple titanium valve springs, ported and polished, an M102 block with custom hyperstrength rods, and intake manifold i am biulding with equal length runners and 12 injector slots, and an M5 drivtrain on the way. there is more but i realized it was too small for my aplication after I bought it so if anyone needs spare parts including performance parts ask away. All I ask is for small advice on how to suck hidden horsepower on these engines because I know their capabilities, and boy can they pump power, even reliably. I'll be responding to any replies daily and i hope this turns out to be a very large thread because there are still untold secrets of the turbo m30.:D


Bro... wtf. "I am in the middle of builing a 1200rwhp 5 series" and all you have is headwork which we have no evidence of.

A t-100? New to me.

12 injector slots are completely unnecessary. Hyperstrength rods? Are you building a space ship.


The 1200 CRANK horsepower VS M5 is an S38 block... its got more displacement, more cams, more valves, more everything, than an M30. I would say the M30 can do 800 wheel horsepower with about $15,000 in work, but 1200 WHEEL horsepower, from an M30...


good luck. That's going to require 1500 bhp...

Sorry, I just had to come back and say a few more things...


The record for a street going Supra is a Stage 5 long block, GT44-80, about $50,000 in internals and ecu work done by a Motronic engineer. It made 1500hp... sorry bro, I can't see this happening...

[bahnstormer]

A t-100? New to me.



its euro.

[RTLoui]

Bro... wtf. "I am in the middle of builing a 1200rwhp 5 series" and all you have is headwork which we have no evidence of.

A t-100? New to me.

12 injector slots are completely unnecessary. Hyperstrength rods? Are you building a space ship.


The 1200 CRANK horsepower VS M5 is an S38 block... its got more displacement, more cams, more valves, more everything, than an M30. I would say the M30 can do 800 wheel horsepower with about $15,000 in work, but 1200 WHEEL horsepower, from an M30...


good luck. That's going to require 1500 bhp...

Sorry, I just had to come back and say a few more things...


The record for a street going Supra is a Stage 5 long block, GT44-80, about $50,000 in internals and ecu work done by a Motronic engineer. It made 1500hp... sorry bro, I can't see this happening...

I haven't posted all the parts and I haven't recieved all the parts, its just too much to list, and what I mean by hyperstrength is that they have been custom made to handle stupid amounts of boost. By the way take a good look at the S38 block and its identicle to an m30 and an M102 the difference is the pistons and rods.

[kyleN20]

this should be interesting, though 1200 whp dose sound optimistic for an engine that puts 212ish (not positive) stock.

[Jon K]

I haven't posted all the parts and I haven't recieved all the parts, its just too much to list, and what I mean by hyperstrength is that they have been custom made to handle stupid amounts of boost. By the way take a good look at the S38 block and its identicle to an m30 and an M102 the difference is the pistons and rods.

k. so are you tubbing the chassis with a ford 9" solid rear axle? I have seen turbo E36 M3s with only 650 wheel horsepower explode axles. k.

[RTLoui]

the E34 m5 subframe can withstand it with the factory m5 diff, all the mounts have to be urethane though I know because there is is an M5 down here with 1000whp and beats on the car like a red headed step child. Plus I owned an e36 and blew the rear end off of it, after that i did researsh and found out that its one of the e36 weakpoints, the mounts for the diff on the e36 can't stand the pressure mostly because its designed for smoothness not a huge amount of power.

[RTLoui]

oh by the way the 12 injector slots is for 2 rows of injectors to keep up with the air flow that is going to be pumped into the engine

[Kalevera]

As with Jon, I'm interpreting this thread with a bit of incredulity.


Here's my advice. Sell the E34, if you actually own one, and buy this!


http://www.bimmer.info/~lowell/sweetdodge1.jpg

http://www.bimmer.info/~lowell/sweetdodge2.jpg


You can definitely get 1200rwhp out of that! Thank God for Summit!


best, whit

[genphreak]

I should have pictures of the built head in here within the next couple days... Plus this is the car that I'm trying to go after because this car is an animal. http://www.vsmotor.no/en_pictures.htmlHeh, Vidar's **** is so strong you can smell it from here.

That S38 is a killer and Scandinavians are turbo animals, especially that other e34 with the three-mile long intake manifold (similar to Vidal's) that Erich introduced us to a few months back.

If you take an M30 and add those sick 2-metre diameter Scandinavian turbos they use, setup the Autronic, injectors and so on, you end up with some seriously sick ****. I will definately be hunting around for a first time look at this stuff, next time I go North...

Problem is, I always thought that if one built a motor like that, taking so much time and effort to check and recheck, calculate and over-calculate, build and re-build, etc. - how do you ever know how much boost/NO2 & etcetera you can add? Where does one stop? Sure the shafts or the diff will go first in most cases; but ultimately with a tubbed 9" rear such horsepower is just an exercise merely to see what can be done, let alone and one that will likely come apart in the process (spoiling everything).

I've seen that happen too often- and invariably the builder often just goes on to another project. Are you really prepared to do this? Be sure you are it will take more than time, money and effort.

I know I am just me, but I am happy that these motors go well enough in the real world... and have potential. I am keener than most to check this stuff out and swoon, but is it really worth it for you to do all this just to push an M30 to a desired output figure? Why do such a thing- what is your driving interest in it? And how will you work out where to stop without blowing it all sky-high? :) Nick

[Alexlind123]

Sounds awesome. Take lots of pictures.

[genphreak]

Chuckles... she doesn't look like she 'Dodged' a lot Whit...

perhaps you can put her on the bay as an 'ideal rebuild for anyone looking for a strong turbo-project'...

[McWatters]

Yea sounds like a great project, good luck
u seem to know what ur doing. but thats alot of money that could go to something else

cheers
J.McWatters

[Kalevera]

Actually, we got sick of looking at it by december (even though it was down at the bottom of the parking lot), and, I'm not even joking, threw it in the dumpster. Now it's probably being made into a chinese skyscraper :)


best, whit

[RTLoui]

time I've got plenty of, money well that's in the works, and motivation I can't stop myself from pursuiting more. Ever since the my first car was given to me at the age of 12 I started building it and have failed because of lack of materials and child labor laws. All in all i want to design and build the true ultimate driving machine and what better car to do it in than the company who uses that slogan. This car isn't just going to be a high horspower drag car, I hate that! Its almost too hard to explain what I'm trying to get out of this car. Um lets say I'm biulding a Bently, a Ferrari, and a 69 camaro all in one. I know it sounds farfetched but if I don't build it I lose meaning of all motivation.

[Evan]

Chase your dream... and ignore naysayers.

[BigKriss]

1200rwhp..your late with the april fools days joke. Only a fool would take your post seriously.

[632 Regal]

I keep getting tricked here...lol
1200rwhp..your late with the april fools days joke. Only a fool would take your post seriously.

[Jon K]

the E34 m5 subframe can withstand it with the factory m5 diff, all the mounts have to be urethane though I know because there is is an M5 down here with 1000whp and beats on the car like a red headed step child. Plus I owned an e36 and blew the rear end off of it, after that i did researsh and found out that its one of the e36 weakpoints, the mounts for the diff on the e36 can't stand the pressure mostly because its designed for smoothness not a huge amount of power.


Hey man, I don't know how old you are, but a lot of us have been at this for a long time. I am not that old, but I've seen more than my fair share regarding the E34 chassis. An E34 M5 subframe cannot tolerate anywhere near that horsepower. BMW does not accidentally over-engineer cars to hold 1200 hp. There is no 1000hp M5 down anywhere, or we'd know about it. I am heavily involved in forced induces cars... there is one E34 in FL that has 600 hp, that's Pat's car, and yes it does beat a lot of cars, but it's 600hp not 1000hp... I talk to him personally.

[Jon K]

oh by the way the 12 injector slots is for 2 rows of injectors to keep up with the air flow that is going to be pumped into the engine

I know why you wanted 12 injectors... it makes no sense.... 1000hp supras use 6 injectors. Injectors are available all the way up to 1300cc/min, which comes out to about 120#/hr. A simple injector per hp calculator will show you that for 600hp a turbocharged 6 cyl needs rough 65# injectors...

[angrypancake]

i thought pat uhh.... went away for a little while...

[winfred]

theres that vs motor car that's supposed to have 1024hp, video's been posted here dozens of times, i liked the one at the track best where he nearly did a continuous burn out around the good sized road corse, it has a turbo the size of a toilet


1200 hp. There is no 1000hp M5 down anywhere, or we'd know about it. I am heavily involved in forced induces cars.

[winfred]

i think he did (http://www.oig.dot.gov/item.jsp?id=1334&session=R4fUM2bL9pnqpLjNsbBMYFJVp7)


i thought pat uhh.... went away for a little while...

[Jon K]

time I've got plenty of, money well that's in the works, and motivation I can't stop myself from pursuiting more. Ever since the my first car was given to me at the age of 12 I started building it and have failed because of lack of materials and child labor laws. All in all i want to design and build the true ultimate driving machine and what better car to do it in than the company who uses that slogan. This car isn't just going to be a high horspower drag car, I hate that! Its almost too hard to explain what I'm trying to get out of this car. Um lets say I'm biulding a Bently, a Ferrari, and a 69 camaro all in one. I know it sounds farfetched but if I don't build it I lose meaning of all motivation.

A ferrari, bentley, and a camaro in one. Have you ever been in any of those cars?

Dude, anyone who is anyone, who knows anyone, will tell you that a drag car will not go around a track. I don't need to hear your justification and trying to slither your way around it - it will not. A drag car suspension is probably the MOST specific purpose-built suspension there is. When you set of a drag car, your camber is off because you've tubbed it. your spring rat ein back is too low. Your weight distribution is configured so that when you go in a forward momentum, it's all over the rear wheels.

Everything I just explained is that farthest thing from a Ferrari. You cannot mix and match. I've helped build several drag specific cars. There are books, libraries written about how to do it, and they all make note that a proper car will be useless in any other condition.

This is just silly - how old are you?

and yes, i did just reply 3 times in a row - it's completely necessary.

Since you know so much, what management are you going to use?

[Jon K]

i thought pat uhh.... went away for a little while...


Pat's back.


4 times.

[winfred]

maybe it would be easyer to get the thing to run if you could shut down a set of squirters, i don't think 120 pounders were designed with street use in mind


I know why you wanted 12 injectors... it makes no sense.... 1000hp supras use 6 injectors. Injectors are available all the way up to 1300cc/min, which comes out to about 120#/hr. A simple injector per hp calculator will show you that for 600hp a turbocharged 6 cyl needs rough 65# injectors...

[Jon K]

maybe it would be easyer to get the thing to run if you could shut down a set of squirters, i don't think 120 pounders were designed with street use in mind


You don't street a 1200hp car with a 290 cam haha. He'll break the motor mounts just idling.

[Jon K]

theres that vs motor car that's supposed to have 1024hp, video's been posted here dozens of times, i liked the one at the track best where he nearly did a continuous burn out around the good sized road corse, it has a turbo the size of a toilet


Winfred - that motor was built by VS Motorsport with the help of a fellow named Andreas from Sweden. The motor exploded after about 12 runs. They were $50,000 into the build when it popped. Starting over. That was an S38B36.

[winfred]

why the hell not :D bob norwood built a few 1000+hp ferrari's for the street, saw a cool article about him, the testrossa had like 20k miles at the absurd power level and the transaxle was slap worn out and they couldn't put any #s on it for the magazine


You don't street a 1200hp car.

[RTLoui]

i know patrick and his car isn't as tricked out as you think it is the guys that are helped me in my build the took part in building patrick's car, ter-tec, or harry to be more specific. Actually if you talk to patrick ask about the silver e30 that he was scared shitless of. anyways I'm using a megasquirt system its a new standalone that being built by these two guys, here's the site http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html

anyways since I'm not done with the car it gives me a chance to play with the internals of the computer its such a versatile system and because its designed for a mustang 5.0(bosch motronic) and its rediculously tunable and its simple.

[Jon K]

i know patrick and his car isn't as tricked out as you think it is the guys that are helped me in my build the took part in building patrick's car, ter-tec, or harry to be more specific. Actually if you talk to patrick ask about the silver e30 that he was scared shitless of. anyways I'm using a megasquirt system its a new standalone that being built by these two guys, here's the site http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html

anyways since I'm not done with the car it give me a chance to play with the internals of the computer its such a versatile system and because its designed for a mustang 5.0(bosch motronic) and its rediculously tunable.

Sir maybe you didn't see my signature, I am extremely well-versed in Megasquirt. You're not shining light on anything.

I built a megasquirt for an M50 utilizing 6 coil on plug coils with bosch idle air control, etc etc etc. You're not convincing me you're building a 1200hp E34. Sorry.

It takes a ton of money to build 1200hp into a 3.5L motor. I don't see how you have that money available and can't spell apocalypse or 'pursuing'

[RTLoui]

I'm sorry I didn't see your signature. Then you should know the capabilities of the system.

[Jon K]

I'm sorry I didn't see your signature. Then you should know the capabilities of the system.


An EFI system doesn't make the motor my friend. I've seen hyundai tiburons running Tec3R....

[RTLoui]

i understand that. there is a whole lot more going into this than i have explained thus far, for that I apologyse. if you have any questions on other aspects of the car other than engine and even engine, I'll be more than happy to tell you. By the way its not going to be a drag suspension its a biltstein/h&r coil over set up. the body I'm widening in the shop with carbon fiber about an extra 4 inch on each side and for that I have a company in daytona making me a set of wheels to hold 355/30's for the rear and 285/35's for the front. the diff now thats something else entirely, its going to be a reinforced diesel diff for extra long gears and gobbs of top end. I'm not taking the car to the drag strip I'm taking it to the saltwater flats.

[Jon K]

Can you tell us how old you are please, this is getting really funny.

A E34 w/ CF wide body (another first, aside from the 1200whp/12 injector and never before heard of ... aka doesnt exist T-100 turbo) on a salt flat. You realize the E34 has a ~.32 drag coefficient? You're not making sense bro, you want to build a car 4" wider on each side, murdering the drag coefficient, for a salt flat car? PS bilstein and H&R coil overs do not exist. You either have H&R coil overs, or you have bilstein coil overs... neither company makes coil overs for the E34.

Again, how old are you.

[kyleN20]

wow, i guess he could shut us up by posting some pics?

[ryan roopnarine]

i thought pat uhh.... went away for a little while...


john knows noriega, and he owes him a hundred favors.....

[Jon K]

Hang on I want to keep a checklist of all the records hes breaking


1) 1200whp from an M30 (as opposed to the 1200 crank horsepower S38 in sweden)

2) Stock E34 subframe

3)4" carbon fiber wide body

4)Custom made bilstein or H&R coil overs

5)Inventing a T-100 turbo

6)Triple valve springs in a 12v head

7)Hyperstrength rods

Am I missing anything?

oh yeah

8) Salt flat E34

[epj3]

Hang on I want to keep a checklist of all the records hes breaking


1) 1200whp from an M30 (as opposed to the 1200 crank horsepower S38 in sweden)

2) Stock E34 subframe

3)4" carbon fiber wide body

4)Custom made bilstein or H&R coil overs

5)Inventing a T-100 turbo

6)Triple valve springs in a 12v head

7)Hyperstrength rods

Am I missing anything?

oh yeah

8) Salt flat E34
Yes, stock brakes with 4 year old mintex pads and all season cooper tires, or no maybe pepboys house brand.

[Jon K]

Yes, stock brakes with 4 year old mintex pads and all season cooper tires, or no maybe pepboys house brand.


No he's running 355/30 mastercrafts. he likes tread life.

[epj3]

No he's running 355/30 mastercrafts. he likes tread life.
mastercraft is the same as cooper it just sounds more expensive. Did I tell you about my sister's 900 horsepower saturn? Yea it's got formula 1 wheels and tires.

[ryan roopnarine]

as the only owner of a 14 sylinder (sp) car on this board, i felt the need to step in and intervene.

a lot of people in this thread don't know what they are talking about. these days, it's all ball bearings. It's so simple, maybe you all need a refresher course or such. Prepare your Fetzer valves with some 3-in-1 oil and some gauze pads, and you'll be all set.

[RTLoui]

Say all you want and by the way the t-100 turbo does exist(do some research), h&r does make a combo kit, and the rods are my design therefore i get to name them, And I'm 23 with a lot of experience. All I'm saying is ask me any detailed question and I'll answer you in detail. I can guarantee I'll answer all your questions correctly.

[Jon K]

Say all you want and by the way the t-100 turbo does exist(do some research), h&r does make a combo kit, and the rods are my design therefore i get to name them, And I'm 23 with a lot of experience. All I'm saying is ask me any detailed question and I'll answer you in detail. I can guarantee I'll answer all your questions correctly.

You designed your own rods... when 5 companies already offer ones that OBVIOUSLY hold 1000hp. 23 making his own rods but can't spell. I need to move to where you live.

If the T-100 you're calling it is what I think you're trying to name, it's actually a T70 turbo with large AR... but the good news is that if this is the turbo you're talking about , it's only good for 900hp try again.

[epj3]

Say all you want and by the way the t-100 turbo does exist(do some research), h&r does make a combo kit, and the rods are my design therefore i get to name them, And I'm 23 with a lot of experience. All I'm saying is ask me any detailed question and I'll answer you in detail. I can guarantee I'll answer all your questions correctly.
Sometimes I feel as if I can't pleasure my woman. Can you?

[RTLoui]

i'm sorry that I'm dyslexic.

[Jon K]

i'm sorry that I'm dyslexic.

What?

[epj3]

i'm sorry that I'm dyslexic.
Say it like you mean it.

[RTLoui]

yea actually I do this thing with my fingers that she goes head over heels for.

[Jon K]

yea actually I do this thing with my fingers that she goes head over heels for.


Then she tells you to stop picking your nose

[Rustam]

Heh, Vidar's **** is so strong you can smell it from here.

That S38 is a killer and Scandinavians are turbo animals, especially that other e34 with the three-mile long intake manifold (similar to Vidal's) that Erich introduced us to a few months back.

If you take an M30 and add those sick 2-metre diameter Scandinavian turbos they use, setup the Autronic, injectors and so on, you end up with some seriously sick ****. I will definately be hunting around for a first time look at this stuff, next time I go North...

Problem is, I always thought that if one built a motor like that, taking so much time and effort to check and recheck, calculate and over-calculate, build and re-build, etc. - how do you ever know how much boost/NO2 & etcetera you can add? Where does one stop? Sure the shafts or the diff will go first in most cases; but ultimately with a tubbed 9" rear such horsepower is just an exercise merely to see what can be done, let alone and one that will likely come apart in the process (spoiling everything).

I've seen that happen too often- and invariably the builder often just goes on to another project. Are you really prepared to do this? Be sure you are it will take more than time, money and effort.

I know I am just me, but I am happy that these motors go well enough in the real world... and have potential. I am keener than most to check this stuff out and swoon, but is it really worth it for you to do all this just to push an M30 to a desired output figure? Why do such a thing- what is your driving interest in it? And how will you work out where to stop without blowing it all sky-high? :) Nick

correct me if I am wrong but the pictures do not seem to show m30 (or s38 for that matter) becasue the engine does not appear to be tilted to the left side... whats wrong with the picture?

[Jon K]

correct me if I am wrong but the pictures do not seem to show m30 (or s38 for that matter) becasue the engine does not appear to be tilted to the left side... whats wrong with the picture?

They turn the engine upright so that the exhaust manifold and turbo clear the fender. It's an S38

[epj3]

I decided I'm putting an M30 in the front of my car to drive front wheels, and a M20 in the rear to drive rears. I figure it's easier to fit the smaller block in the trunk. I'm also thinking of doing one of those turbo setup where they install the turbo at the rear of the exhaust instead of out of the manifolds. I think the M30+M20 = M50 and I hear M50's are pretty tuneable.

[Jon K]

I decided I'm putting an M30 in the front of my car to drive front wheels, and a M20 in the rear to drive rears. I figure it's easier to fit the smaller block in the trunk. I'm also thinking of doing one of those turbo setup where they install the turbo at the rear of the exhaust instead of out of the manifolds. I think the M30+M20 = M50 and I hear M50's are pretty tuneable.


I think you're better off wit 2 M42s in the back, I think they have forged cranks.

[RTLoui]

hey I'm trying to be polite about everything and answer everything nicely now your just beat around the bush like an *******.

[epj3]

I think you're better off wit 2 M42s in the back, I think they have forged cranks.
I'm going to install TV's in my brake lights so when I race people and beat them I can show them porn to make them feel better.

[angrypancake]

didnt cheech and chong make a car that ran off weed? im gonna get that and throw a t-100 turbo in that ****. hellll yah.

[Rustam]

All in all i want to design and build the true ultimate driving machine and what better car to do it in than the company who uses that slogan.

trivia time:

Original usage of "ultimate driving machine" came from a commercial advertisement of Pontiac GTO.

[Jon K]

hey I'm trying to be polite about everything and answer everything nicely now your just beat around the bush like an *******.


You're being ridiculous. Your website has Hot Import Nights, Import Tuner, and Modified Magazine as "Resources". You have a sales section that sells ADR rims 4x100, 17x7 in ricetastic styles. You expect us to believe youre building a 1200whp car. Im bored with this now.

[Rustam]

PS bilstein and H&R coil overs do not exist. You either have H&R coil overs, or you have bilstein coil overs... neither company makes coil overs for the E34.


I think he meant bilsten shock absorbers and H&R springs...

[Jon K]

I think he meant bilsten shock absorbers and H&R springs...


Well just to let him know, my supercharged car squats hard on bilstein shocks and H&R springs, and i have no where near 1200hp

[Rustam]

Well just to let him know, my supercharged car squats hard on bilstein shocks and H&R springs, and i have no where near 1200hp

well how much the car squats depends on the rear end ratio as well...

[Jon K]

well how much the car squats depends on the rear end ratio as well...


3.23lsd with brunos polyurethane subframe reinforcements.

[Rustam]

3.23lsd with brunos polyurethane subframe reinforcements.

if you dont like the squatting - increase that ratio

[Jon K]

if you dont like the squatting - increase that ratio


What?

it doesn't squat, but it compresses. 1200hp would murder it.

You don't change your diff ratio because your car squats.... increasing the ratio would make it more likely to squat and id lose top end. Thats neither here nor there, its not good advice.

Now, back to the 1200hp E34 salt car.

[Rustam]

What?

it doesn't squat, but it compresses. 1200hp would murder it.

You don't change your diff ratio because your car squats.... increasing the ratio would make it more likely to squat and id lose top end. Thats neither here nor there, its not good advice.

Now, back to the 1200hp E34 salt car.

Increasing the ratio would make it squat (or 'compress' if you will) less since larger gear requires LESS torque to initiate motion - these are basic physics...

[Jon K]

Increasing the ratio would make it squat (or 'compress' if you will) less since larger gear requires LESS torque to initiate motion - these are basic physics...


I have a 3.23, you're saying to go to a increased ration... ie 3.64...3.73... if youve ever been in a car with an upgraded diff, they squat more. With a forced induced motor you never increase diff ratio... you murder your top end.

[Rustam]

I have a 3.23, you're saying to go to a increased ration... ie 3.64...3.73... if youve ever been in a car with an upgraded diff, they squat more. With a forced induced motor you never increase diff ratio... you murder your top end.

First of all - I was not commenting on any particular setup whether forced induced or not.
Second of all - I don't have to be in a car with upgraded differential in order to foresee the effect of applying same amount of torque to a gear with larger radius. A larger gear is easier to turn, therefore, having encountered less resistance the drive shaft is not inclined to follow upward just as far due to (smaller) force of reaction (and with that driveshaft the rest of the car structure).
An upgrade to greater gear ratio simply can not make the car 'squat more' - you've missed a point somewhere...

Does one not "murder top end" with larger ratio with normally aspirated engine? why necessarily mention that for forced induction?

[Jon K]

First of all - I was not commenting on any particular setup whether forced induced or not.
Second of all - I don't have to be in a car with upgraded differential in order to foresee the effect of applying same amount of torque to a gear with larger radius. A larger gear is easier to turn, therefore, having encountered less resistance the drive shaft is not inclined to follow upward just as far due to (smaller) force of reaction (and with that driveshaft the rest of the car structure).
An upgrade to greater gear ratio simply can not make the car 'squat more' - you've missed a point somewhere...

Does one not "murder top end" with larger ratio with normally aspirated engine? why necessarily mention that for forced induction?


A larger diff ratio moves the torque characteristics of a car. If you have a 300hp car w/ a 3.23 diff, and a 300hp car with a 3.91... when you **** 1st to 2nd hard in the 3.91 its going t be a hell of a lot harder, break more traction, etc, than with the 3.23. It's how it is. You murder the top end especially on a FI car because an FI car is all about revs. People with turbo M3s go from a 3.23 to a 2.93... you want more gear. Boost is a result of rpm. Another reason you don't increase ratio on an FI car is because you're already going to have traction issues... putting in a super short 1st and 2nd gear final drive is going to make the car spin even more.

[DanDombrowski]

Hey, I think I saw Harri's car this weekend at the Honda Grand Prix, I posted a video of it in the forum (although I admit it was of poor quality). The black 535 with the giant turbo on it, right? Or is it a total coincidence?

[Jon K]

His car isnt built... its all theoretical so far... he doesn't have any of the parts.

[kyleN20]

from my limited knowlage, im thinking that Rustam is not considering this the right way, its a gear ratio, not simply a larger gear. if i was to put a 4.10 in my car it would squat harder as compared to a 3.23. i think its the revelutions of the output shaft as compared to wheels/what the diff puts to the wheels. so say you have a 2.93, that is closer to a 1 to 1 ration then with a 4.10, so the gear wouls actully be smaller in the 4.10 then the 2.93

this is all to the best of my ideas, so im not positive, but i think thats how it is

[kyleN20]

jon, yer gunna feel bad when this dislexic kid builds a 1200rwhp car and then crashes and killes himself cause it cant handel like a ferrari as planed.

[Jon K]

I am not holding my breathe

[Rustam]

A larger diff ratio moves the torque characteristics of a car. If you have a 300hp car w/ a 3.23 diff, and a 300hp car with a 3.91... when you **** 1st to 2nd hard in the 3.91 its going t be a hell of a lot harder, break more traction, etc, than with the 3.23. It's how it is. You murder the top end especially on a FI car because an FI car is all about revs. People with turbo M3s go from a 3.23 to a 2.93... you want more gear. Boost is a result of rpm. Another reason you don't increase ratio on an FI car is because you're already going to have traction issues... putting in a super short 1st and 2nd gear final drive is going to make the car spin even more.

I am failing to see relevance of this trivial information to the link between squatting and rear differential ratio...

A car with upgraded read differential with higher ratio squats less - the explanation can be found in my thread titled "Jon K - read about (your) rear differential".

[DueyT]

from my limited knowlage, im thinking that Rustam is not considering this the right way, its a gear ratio, not simply a larger gear. if i was to put a 4.10 in my car it would squat harder as compared to a 3.23. i think its the revelutions of the output shaft as compared to wheels/what the diff puts to the wheels. so say you have a 2.93, that is closer to a 1 to 1 ration then with a 4.10, so the gear wouls actully be smaller in the 4.10 then the 2.93

this is all to the best of my ideas, so im not positive, but i think thats how it is

Kyle, whe most guys talk about gearing, the terms higher/deeper/larger gear normally mean a larger numerical ratio (like a 4.10:1) and shorter/shallower/smaller gear means less reduction, like a 2.83:1.

You're right, if you're talking about the pinion gear -- in a 4.10:1 diff, the pinion gear (smaller, spiral cut on the end of the pinion drive) would in fact be smaller than the pinion gear in a 3.23 rear end, but the ring gears are approximately the same size from one gear set to the next...

The point in question is not a simple one, since we're now talking about deflection forces and torque transfer issues from variations in moments (as in twisting forces about an axis) due to different radii of the pinion gears and the effect that has on the ring gear and differential casing. I'd have to do a bit of Newtonian mechanics to refresh my memory on how the forces would work out...my gut feel is actually to say that, if there is enough torque to light up the tires and the tires and suspension components haven't been changed, then different gears would not have as much affect on squat as some might think...

Cheers,
Duey

[Rustam]

its a gear ratio, not simply a larger gear. if i was to put a 4.10 in my car it would squat harder as compared to a 3.23. i think its the revelutions of the output shaft as compared to wheels/what the diff puts to the wheels. so say you have a 2.93, that is closer to a 1 to 1 ration then with a 4.10, so the gear wouls actully be smaller in the 4.10 then the 2.93


Correct - the issue is with the ratio therefore what I said stands - decreasing the radius of the pinion gear makes the ring gear relatively larger. It does not matter which one is increased and which one is decreased in radius - so long as the ratio is same the ratio in torques is same. I simply chose to look from the stand point of increasing radius of the ring gear. I might have as well chosen to look from the stand point of decreased radius of the pinion gear - essentailly same argumentation.

One can make pinion gear smaller for 4:1 ratio and someone else may make ring gear larger for same 4:1 ratio - since the ratio is same the relationship between input torque and output torque is same - in ths case 4:1.

My point was to outline what happens between relationship between input and output torques - which is essentially the gear ratio as you have observed...

____

"its a gear ratio, not simply a larger gear" - now this is an idiom - I really don't know what you mean to say here...

[Jon K]

If you've ever been in a car that's gone from a 3.15 or 3.23 to a 3.64 or 3.73 or higher, the rear ends sag. It's because the acceleration forces shift to the rear car much faster than with a 3.23 lower ratio rear end. You can write pages about if you want - go ride in a car with a higher numerical rear end... it will squat.

Regardless of what you think about logistics of it happening, thats not even the subject - the subject is that my ~300hp car on a 3.23lsd squats under acceleration. I can post a video sometime later and you can see just how it is. Thats with bilstein sport shocks, H&R sport springs, polyurethane subframe plates, and new subframe bushings... mrs "im going to build a 1200hp e34" thinks a bilstein/H&R combo is going to support 1200hp. Think again.

[sKilled]

Shut up shut up shut up...all you do is fight...why can't we be a happy family like we used too???:(

[Jon K]

Families don't like ********ters.

[sKilled]

True.

[kyleN20]

the way you said it made it sound like "increase the diff (aka numericaly) and you will have less squating" and people see that like increase from a 2.93 to a 3.73, and thats false, but if you are talking about the gear size itself your right, but almost noone talks like that.

[kyleN20]

basically were just tring to stop **** like someone coming in and his first thread is "im building a 1200rwhp supercar that handels like a ferrari ect ect"
because no one needs to waste their time when someone comes in blowing smoke up our asses. lord knows its gunna take a **** load of money to EVER get 1200rwhp out of a m30, and then a shitload of money to make the rest of the car handel it, and then its not streetable and doesent make usable HP, might as well buy a dodge 2500 with a cummins turbo, talk to winifred bout that.

kyle

[Rustam]

If you've ever been in a car that's gone from a 3.15 or 3.23 to a 3.64 or 3.73 or higher, the rear ends sag. It's because the acceleration forces shift to the rear car much faster than with a 3.23 lower ratio rear end.

you may want to consider to keep rereading the thread that I pointed to, untill it starts sinking in...


You can write pages about if you want
Sure I can - but it's unnecessary since I've provided complete superficial account of what is happening. The text is complete - now its about the reader to make best judgement. You can take this text to a physics professor and he'll take you through it...


- go ride in a car with a higher numerical rear end... it will squat.

and the reason that you find it necessary to tell me this is? what? did I say or imply that the car with larger rear end ratio does not squat? no I did not - look again... I never said that a car with larger rear end ratio does not squat...


Regardless of what you think about logistics of it happening, thats not even the subject - the subject is that my ~300hp car on a 3.23lsd squats under acceleration.

Of course it does, and I already provided the reasoning for that. Having done that I don't see a need for you to tell me this - I've shown my complete undertsanding of the fact that your car squats - or any other car for that matter.

And what you mention here is not the subject (in fact there is nothing subjective to it - all cars squat not just yours, regardless of "hp" ratio or type of the end) - you started arguing with me when I said that the higher gear ratio makes the car squat less - that is the subject - whether the higher gear ratio does or does not make the car squat less...


I can post a video sometime later and you can see just how it is.

Sure you can post a video, and sure it will show that the car squats. I don't see the need for it however - it's completely obvious that the car will squat - such are laws of nature... And I never said that It would not...

_______________


"Go ride in a car and it will squat" - pardon me - how exactly do you know how much the same car gets to squat after installation of higher gear ratio when you accelerate it from stand-still??? by feeling? Make videos of a car acclerated from stand-still before and after installation of higher gear ratio in the rear end and take a close look.

One question now - are you talking about squatting while moving just after the car has launched forward or before? I've been discreet enough to make sure that I talked of squatting BEFORE the car moves - have you been able to ascertain this fine point?

I am assuming you had dared to read my other thread...

You need to pay attention to what's being said to you before venturing to furnish a reply...

[genphreak]

You're being ridiculous. Your website has Hot Import Nights, Import Tuner, and Modified Magazine as "Resources". You have a sales section that sells ADR rims 4x100, 17x7 in ricetastic styles. You expect us to believe youre building a 1200whp car. Im bored with this now.:D It's anarchically funny this. Quit reacting Jon, best let him be. "I am serious, I am the man, (stop banging on about me the way I've been crappin and fartin my way into oblivion...) ask me anthing else, I'll show ya... I know my ****" 23 , 12 or 13, anyone can answer anything by researching on the Net. Many can even build fantastic sites, but ******** smells on forums as much as it does when its fresh on one's boot in the middle of the loungeroom in front of your future father-in law.

Perhaps it's the beginning of new style of Internet scam; ie lurk and spike threads in forums - research it (as best as one can) and try to get everyone to buy products (send money) from a hashed up site... then do the runner at just the right moment.

uh, it just doesn't work...

Nice on RTLoui, time for another joke dude- but let's not drag it out so much next time... momma, this was a painful thread!

[Dave M]

momma, this was a painful thread!

Ditto. Like an accident, I just had too look.

Dave M

[Jon K]

RTLoui - bring your 1200hp E34 up to Englishtown Raceway on Sunday, we're racing our 500hp GTi, I know you've got the leg-up, but I bet we'll hold our own haha.

[RTLoui]

oh, about your rear end problem look at the videos in the vs motor site its under either flmer or vdeos if its stays in english especially at tulinge 2004. That a stock rear end.

[kyleN20]

yer gunna put 1200 rwhp to a rear end desinged to handel 350 crank?

[RTLoui]

well yes and no. the M5 rear can hold it I've seen it first hand. the ring and pinion is inpenetrable its the planetary gear that needs to be changed. Plus the computer isn't going to allow all 1200hp to slam the drivetrain the electronically controlled boost will flow smoothly, the head I built for it will allow me to revthe hell out of the engine thus giving me a longer span to smooth in the boost and power. Besides, 1200 is only peak, its not like I'm going to leave it up there for the engine to bear that stress all the time its going to run a more consistant 750 or 800.

[Jon K]

well yes and no. the M5 rear can hold it I've seen it first hand. the ring and pinion is inpenetrable its the planetary gear that needs to be changed. Plus the computer isn't going to allow all 1200hp to slam the drivetrain the electronically controlled boost will flow smoothly, the head I built for it will allow me to revthe hell out of the engine thus giving me a longer span to smooth in the boost and power. Besides, 1200 is only peak, its not like I'm going to leave it up there for the engine to bear that stress all the time its going to run a more consistant 750 or 800.


You just said you designed the computer to be electronically boost controlled - ps i am on the megasquirt code and design team and we don't have the electronic boost control working ;) -4 points.

[Incantation]

look forward to seeing what you're able to do.. don't let the nerds and naysayers get you down either

[mikell]

WHY is this thread still alive?

[ArtemLepilov]

Yo - I believe you guys need to get real for a sec: I mean without the pimpstar rims... the WHEELS cant handle the horsepower... as a matter of fact-nothing that cannot be programmable while you are driving can handle the power... Just cannot imagine it handling the 1200WHP without the pimpstars..

-Artem

PS - Alcantara is like the gayest piece of **** ever made - the animal that it comes from has to be killed asap...

[Blitzkrieg Bob]

I never seen planetary gears in a final drive....only in transmissions.

seen spider gears, clutch drums/packs, and all kinds of springs, plates and locking cams and cones.

[kyleN20]

i like alcantara

[Jon K]

i don't




hey you guys didn't hear? Louis diff has planetary gears, its a 2 speed diff... its a 4.10 and a 2.93

[angrypancake]

i'm not even going to bother to read all 11 pages. drivel.

[kyleN20]

im just gunna keep it going

[genphreak]

im just gunna keep it goingWell RTLoui came asking for advice, half way through his project. I'm glad he had it well planned with all the experts consulted prior to starting out. I particularly enjoyed the pics of his work.

Hey guys, I'm trying to get advice from as many people as possible because I'm going to perform the impossible. I'm in the middle of building a 1200rwhp 5 series. So far its an M30 head with a custom 290 cam with an 11.2 mil lift, custom racing light weight rockers from korman, billet rocker retainers, triple titanium valve springs, ported and polished, an M102 block with custom hyperstrength rods... Jon's suggestion of a 2-speed diff got me thinking though. Maybe we can all get one of them? We could do a group buy if enough people are interested! (I was thinking that if enough of us were to approach a crowd like the turbonator corporation)... you know, (and if we sent them enough money via PayPal), perhaps we could commission a stick on (velcro maybe?) 2 (or even 3 speed!) differential casing. I am sure it could be engineered and tested by any one of those amazing engineeri-marketing companies that make the fantastic hairdrier mod-kits that one can substitute for a $5000 turbocharger setup.

What do you think peeps, would this not be the group buy of the century?

[Blitzkrieg Bob]

I think they are right up your alley.
http://www.kalecoauto.com/

Here's a part you've overlooked in your build


http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=28

[Nick.Hay]

Oh, by the way...

Vidar killed the S38... It was pumping 1129BHP!!

[Nick.Hay]

Chase your dream... and ignore naysayers.

Right on!! :D Build it, race it, and show us ALL that it can be done!!!

Lots of pics.. lots of specs.. and LOTS of factual evidence.

[neil_004]

http://www.gearvendors.com/

It isnt a 2 speed diff but it is close. Shame they dont make them for our cars.

[Nick.Hay]

That site is GOLD!!! :D :D

[Jon K]

Bump for 1200hp E34's

[Blitzkrieg Bob]

dust off this dried up turd of a thread?

I almost forgot about the planetary gears in the final drive.

[Jon K]

Because I am afraid there are 1200hp E34s out there and my eyes are not open yet. Plantary final drive FTW.

[Kalevera]

I'm building a 1201 rwhp E34.

Hypersupermegaforged rods and pistons. NASA is spending billions of your taxpayer money on this project.


best, whit

[Jon K]

I'm building a 1201 rwhp E34.

Hypersupermegaforged rods and pistons. NASA is spending billions of your taxpayer money on this project.


best, whit

Really? Dude thats awesome, chase your dreams - don't listen to the naysayers they don't know ****.


Get my email?

[Alexlind123]

bump. heheheheh

[Boone.Msi]

oh noes...

[winfred]

no that's god dammit


oh noes...

[Jon K]

I am resurrecting - I'd like to see if the OP ever get the seatbelts in.