Power Steering Leaks.

[Spasso]

Hi Guys,
I just picked up a '94 530iT to go with my 530i and find that it too has a slow leak from somewhere in the power steering system, located in an area that appears to be above the PS pump. The leak area and splatter pattern under the car is identical.

The low pressure hose has been replaced on the iT and the system still has the leak, about a pint every 800 miles.. No noise comes from either pump and both work fine.

Before I dive in on this project (great, now I have two of these) is a there a common place on the system that eventually leaks on all of the V8 cars or is this just a coincidence?.

Thanks, DJ

[bfd]

On my 90 535i, 5 spd, 105K, my PS leaks were the clamps. BMW uses crimp clamps. Fix is to replace with worm gear ones. FYI, make sure you use the correct fluid.

[athflying79]

I doubt the problem was with the clamps. Many people would argue the crimps clamps work better because they provide a more uniform sealing surface and don't make themselves oblong.

Usually on older cars the hoses are shot and it's a good idea to replace the clamps as well. Don't know how different the V8's are, but my PS hoses were due for replacement.

[Gearhead]

I was just under mine this past weekend installing a set of Powerflex poly thrust arm bushes in mine and came across a PS leak too. Not bad, but something I need to address. In my case, I could swear it looks like the compression washers at the pressure/outlet hose are leaking. I half thought about tightening them, but with Murphy's law strong in my life I figured I'd just better replace them. With my luck, I'd strip threads or somehow make it worse. I have to keep remembering that this isn't like working on my old Pontiacs!

[shogun]

Be careful with that bolts, they are hollow inside so that the fluid can run through it. I found on my car after I bought it a leak, and guess what: the p. owner had tightened it too much and the bolt was broken.

[liquidtiger720]

whats the process for changing the power steering hoses?

[shogun]

The broken bolt
http://www.bimmerboard.com/members/shogun/original/hydrhose9.jpg
Here are some of those old ones I removed from my 750, there you can see how they look
http://www.bimmerboard.com/members/shogun/CIMG4994.jpg
http://www.bimmerboard.com/members/shogun/original/hydrhose1.jpg
I had to use this long extension
http://www.bimmerboard.com/members/shogun/original/hydrhose2.jpg
http://www.bimmerboard.com/members/shogun/original/hydrhose3.jpg
http://www.bimmerboard.com/members/shogun/original/hydrhose4.jpg
Hollow bolt pic
http://www.bimmerboard.com/members/shogun/original/hydrhose5.jpg
http://www.bimmerboard.com/members/shogun/original/hydrhose6.jpg
http://www.bimmerboard.com/members/shogun/original/hydrhose7.jpg
http://www.bimmerboard.com/members/shogun/original/hydrhose8.jpg

[yaofeng]

Tse! Tse! You are using a 3/4" drive torque wrench as a ratchet wrench.:(

http://www.bimmerboard.com/members/shogun/original/hydrhose4.jpg

[liquidtiger720]

awsome. thank you for the pictures shogun.

[shogun]

Tse! Tse! You are using a 3/4" drive torque wrench as a ratchet wrench.

No, I used it as torque wrench, see the broken banjo bolt in above links, which the previous owner tightened too much.

And of course I wanted to show off with my new torque wrench ;) :p

[Spasso]

In my case, I could swear it looks like the compression washers at the pressure/outlet hose are leaking. I half thought about tightening them, but with Murphy's law strong in my life I figured I'd just better replace them.
I thought the same on my sedan. It appears the drip from the banjo fitting is there just because it is the lowest point in the system.

Does any one have recommendations for sourcing a new PS pump on the outside chance it is failing?
Thanks, DJ

[Gearhead]

So DJ,

Are you saying that although you thought it was a leak at the banjo fitting, it was actually leaking from somewhere else? If so, where was the actual leak.

Thanks!

John

[jjw]

Mine leaks from the pitman shaft seal of the steering box, and so far, I can't find a rebuilt kit for the box. So I just left it alone since it is not too bad of a leak.

[RX7guy]

Hmmm... Mine seems to be leaking from the banjo fitting as well. Anyone know where to get the correct size crush washers?

[joshua43214]

Hmmm... Mine seems to be leaking from the banjo fitting as well. Anyone know where to get the correct size crush washers?

Should be just standard aluminum sealing washers. any decent parts store will have a bin with variouse sizes. Just match them up. Or go to the dealer and they can source it by the application if you dont have 2 vehicles.

The hoses themselves become perforated sometimes, clean every thing up with foamy engine cleaner and recheck.

[Kalevera]

Before chancing on crush washers, take the time to analyze the leak.

It seems like I've been doing a lot of power steering work recently. Three cars today, all exhibiting different problems.

If it's a V8, the lines are probably bad, even if they've been replaced once in the past. Heat and time do them in, it's a frequent issue. Gunk on the lines around and directly below the fittings, especially at the fluid reservoir, are telltale signs. Both lines associated with the reservoir were visibly gooped up and shot on a 9/97 E38 740 I did earlier today.

As others have said, just because the fluid is most visible at the banjo bolt fitting doesn't mean the leak originates there. The two others I saw today with P/S leaks exhibited this: an E39 528 had a loose hose clamp (norma, not crimp) and possibly a bad line -- the temporary fix was to tighten the clamp and clean the area; an E32 750 also had a visible drip at the lowest banjo bolt, yet a quick trace of the fluid flow revealed that the pump was leaking at the center seal -- I pulled the pump and rebuilt it.



best, whit

[Gearhead]

Thanks Whit. Looks like I'll "tighten" the hose clamps, clean it all off, drive a bit and re-inspect. It's just such a pain to see up in there. Need to find my dental mirror. Last I remember, one of my kids was playing with it and the dog was hiding.

[Spasso]

So DJ,

Are you saying that although you thought it was a leak at the banjo fitting, it was actually leaking from somewhere else? If so, where was the actual leak.

Thanks!

John

Okay, so here is an update.

THIS IS A V8 CAR!! It requires CHF11s fluid as per the reservoir cap. This is a Touring and does NOT have self leveling suspension but DOES have ASC.

Since the purchase of the car I thoroughly pressure washed the entire chassis and engine bay.

I left the lower shroud off and drove it approximately 1000 miles.

I put the car on the lift 3 times during that period and did a thorough inspection (using a flashlight) and mirror of all of the hoses top and bottom and all the way out to the cooler.

I noted each time that a small amount of fluid was accumilating at the lower banjo bolt on the pump but only because it was running down the hose.

There is NO fluid coming from the forward shaft seal of the pump. The pump is DRY top and bottom.

A larger amount of fluid is accumilating along the crossmember under the engine and I have been able to trace it over to the left hand motor mount. The fluid is dripping DIRECTLY onto the L/H motor mount from above yet the all hoses appear dry and the frame rail is dry in that area.

The main shaft that extends from the bottom of the steering box is dry.

As I type this I am looking at a shop receipt from 2004 that came with this car that says, "Diagnosis: traced loss of fluid to three power steering return hoses. Replaced three P/S hoses and one cooler hose to box. Measure and fit two hoses for return lines. Add fluid and cycle".

Sooooooooo, whats left? From what I can see from the schematic there is only one pressure line in the system, from the pump straight to the box.

I'm guessing that is the culprit and the fluid is seeping out of the hose somewhere inside the heat shielding and running out the end and onto the motor mount but when I look down there with a mirror I can't see evidence to support that theory. As a matter of fact I can't see sh*t!

It's very difficult to see ANY of the system except for the reservoir and the hoses leading up to it. It's not much better from underneath. Aggravating to say the least.

One more theory, the steering box has an end cap over the top of the main pitman shaft. Could it be leaking out of the seal under that cap?. The motor mount is immediately forward of the steering box.

I am hoping that maybe some of you V8 owners have had similar experiences and found a recurring weak spot in this system I can aim at.

Thanks in advance,
DJ

[joshua43214]

In my experience the hoses are the weak point. try this, clean the hoses with brake clean until they are totaly clean, the hose should then have a grey/black color. Drive the car, if the hose has turned black, it it leaky.

If you suspect a pressure hose. clean every thing, start the car and turn the steering wheel hard over against the lock and hold it there for a few moments, a pressure hose of fitting should have leaked enough to be dectectable.

Its hard to see down in there, You just have to keep at it, eventualy you will see something.

[Spasso]

The hoses that I can see look good and dry but there are others that are inside a corrigated heatshielding/sheath, outboard of the headers that I can't see. The only way to check them is to pull them out of the car and slide the sheath off.............................................

I guess the first step is to pull the pump and work my way back to the box and remove every hose.

Yuk.

[Spasso]

So more updates and more speculation;

Further perusing of the workshop receipts reveals a recommendation to change valve cover gaskets due to leaking, estimate 600.00 USD. If they are leaking it would appear to be on the L/H side of the engine only. The R/H side is dry as a bone.

Looking at the layout of the P/S system on a V8 car versus a six cylinder car I can see where the deterioration of the hoses would be severe and often on the V8 car because of the exhaust header on that side. The exhaust manifold for the six is on the other side!!

I also notice that the braided oil lines that lead from the oil filter housing down to the block (above the L/H motor mount) are wet and dirty and the leaking occurs while the car is NOT running, parked.. Mmmmmmmmmmmmm.

With that said I have taken the advice of a fellow on this site and am now conducting the "white paper test" under the entire engine bay. The fluid in the P/S steering reservoir should be the green CHF11s yet the oil drips on the main cross member further back appear to be brown in color. I wonder if those braided oil filter lines are giving up?

I will keep you all appraised as I further my quest.

DJ

[bfd]

Should be just standard aluminum sealing washers. any decent parts store will have a bin with variouse sizes. Just match them up. Or go to the dealer and they can source it by the application if you dont have 2 vehicles.

The hoses themselves become perforated sometimes, clean every thing up with foamy engine cleaner and recheck.

I agree that you should clean everything and analyze before doing anything. However, save your time and gas and go directly to the dealer to buy the aluminum sealing washers. Unless someone can point to a source, you will NOT find those washers anywhere else.

[Spasso]

Since the purchase of the car I thoroughly pressure washed the entire chassis and engine bay.


DJ

IT'S CLEAN!! (with the exception of the leaks)

[Spasso]

I agree that you should clean everything and analyze before doing anything. However, save your time and gas and go directly to the dealer to buy the aluminum sealing washers. Unless someone can point to a source, you will NOT find those washers anywhere else.

This car is VERY clean.
About the only place that didn't get sprayed by the pressure washer was the underside of the oil lines leading from the block up to the oil filter housing.

Everything else is VERY VERY clean. It's just a matter of trying to see up into this tighly packed maze of hose and tubing to the connections in places like the top of the steering box and bottom of the oil filter housing, places that are not easily visible...

So far I haven't found any (visible) leaking crush washers and all of the P/S steering hose ends and clamps to the reservoir and pump are dry. Nearly all of the hoses were replaced a few years ago. There may be the possibility that they didn't get them all tight but I don't see the evidence yet.

You know, all of you guys are right about how to approach this. I am sure it is a simple and probably obvious cause, I just haven't gotten there yet.

I know better than to just tear a car apart and replace parts until the problem goes away. I like to know exactly what is going on before I dive in.

I haven't been driving the car much so I don't know what kind of consumption I am experiencing in the P/S system. It could be more motor oil than P/S fluid.

Time to get the flashlight and mirror out for some more investigation.

[stargazer_61]

Be sure to check the condition of the engine mount - particularly the left hand one. I had a P/S leak and it destroyed the mount. Even if yours is oil, the prior leak may have deteriorated it.

[Spasso]

My brother said the same thing. He said they were filled with hydraulic fluid and failed on occasion. He thought that might have been the cause of the leak (I wish) but there is too much fluid for that. The rubber is starting to peel off one side.

When I fix the rest of this mess I'll take another look at it.

[BillionPa]

I have the EXACT same leak you are describing, started a few days ago while the car was on jack stands. I cant tell where its coming from, but it looks like its dripping off the left hand motor mount :/

the one thing i CAN tell is that the power steering reservoir doesnt appear to be losing fluid, so it may be the motor mount itself (which is in horrible shape) leaking its fluid.