The suspension ACID Test; Non-Lemfoerder suspension parts

[genphreak]

OK cheap-skate e34ers; recently you just forked out $300 readies for some eBay suspension kit (or otherwise bought these parts) to freshen up your baby e34.

You prbably got (what they said were) 750 bushings and could tell it was all German made with TUV approvals and you may beven have saved 40% off buying Lemfoerder parts (the OE stuff in most cases).

But you've read the threads harping on about 'broken boots' and 'worn out moving joints' and 'sloppy bushes' and you are rapidly losing faith in what you thougth was a great decision... well here's your chance to clear things up.

Vote and see some statistics on what other e34 owners have said about this issue! May we all learn from this poll and keep our babies trouble-free with less pain forever more...

Thanks in advance, :) Nick

[genphreak]

People, BEFORE you vote, please get under your car and check it out... the boots might have split whilst you were asleep last night :D LOL :) Nick

[onewhippedpuppy]

I voted, even though I just put my stuff in yesterday.:D We'll see how the Flennor stuff is, though I ended up with Lemforder for the thrust arms.

[Gayle]

Nick

I hate polls where you can't see who voted for what.:(

[632 Regal]

Multiple choice people!

[Qube]

Well, my FCP "M5" upgrade set is still holding up after track day yesterday... but we'll see. I haven't driven her today yet, heh.

[Alexlind123]

Flennor seems to have a good history and their parts appear to be good quality. Flennor are german made. BMA sent me flennor dogbones even though i ordered meyle.

[mikell]

I did not vote - all of mine are Lemforder, and they are doing great. Replaced the thrusts and controls more than 2 years and 30k miles ago. I am not rich enough to "save money" by installing cheap parts. But, I wish I could see the poll results without voting, since my vote would skew the results, and there is no "not applicable" option.

[DaveVoorhis]

But, I wish I could see the poll results without voting, since my vote would skew the results, and there is no "not applicable" option.

You can. Click on "View Poll Results" link immediately below the lower right hand corner of the poll questions box.

[SharkmanBMW]

You can. Click on "View Poll Results" link immediately below the lower right hand corner of the poll questions box.


it does not show the voter name, only results

[Scott C]

I had Meyle the first time - the root cause of failure was the boots, which let the grease out.... I don't know if the joints would have lasted longer but suspected that was a big deal. If I ever do this again (3 years), I will use the polyurethane boots....

Scott

[nuclearfusion]

Having tried cheaper (Meyle - German made!) suspension components in my E28 let me just say it was a screaming disaster. I hadn't even tried to buy cheaper - that's just what the local parts place had and sold to me. Anyway, within a year every rubber boot had failed and within two years all the joints had play in them and the whole works needed to be replaced. In fairness I did drive that car pretty hard, had a hot engine in it, big brakes, etc.

Next time I went with Lemforder and they were MUCH better. In fact I didn't have to change them again. I used 750i bushings (bought from BMW directly and I machined them down myself) both times I did the front suspension components and the bushings were never the cause of any trouble. Always those blasted rubber boots over the balljoints. The Lemforder ones seem to be much longer-lived than the others.

With that experience under my belt I'll never fool around with cheap suspension parts - the time needed to do the job again (and again!) is far more expensive to me than a few extra $ to buy good parts in the first place... particularly now that I've had bitter experience and know better!

I think we really only do have a limited time - there's always more money, fame, fortune, etc. but time is something you just can't get more of. Please don't get me wrong - I like working on my car but I'm not scared to admit there are many other things I'd rather be doing than replacing cruddy suspension parts.

Enjoy!

Fusion

p.s. - has anyone tried the aluminum thrust arms with spherical bearings specified for the E31? They should just bolt right on. I think Bruno lists them on his site. I'd love to hear experience from anybody who's tried them...

[genphreak]

Nick I hate polls where you can't see who voted for what.:(Sorry Gayle, I didn't think it would be necessary. Living in a world of terror and totalitarian democracies hell-bent on comprimising provacy I automatically take the most secure options possible- esp on the Net. :(

I'll remember 4 next time.. promise! We're all friends here right? I am sure there's no-one from the NSA or DoHS checking out our control arm bushings.. (me hopes) :D

[genphreak]

Having tried cheaper (Meyle - German made!) suspension components in my E28 let me just say it was a screaming disaster. I think we really only do have a limited time - there's always more money, fame, fortune, etc. but time is something you just can't get more of. Heh well said. And our time is perhaps massively reduced if one of these parts really fails badly....
p.s. - has anyone tried the aluminum thrust arms with spherical bearings specified for the E31? They should just bolt right on. I think Bruno lists them on his site. I'd love to hear experience from anybody who's tried them...They are quite new so don't expect anyone to have them yet. I know Kristian has RRT's steel thrust arms and says they are very much a track-only item, Bruno's viewpoint might be a good place to start with these. Are the e31 thrusts compatible with e34? How different are they- if at all?

Back on topic tho; I have Meyle Al lower control arms, they have a clear boot and 'appear to be decently made'. One thing I noticed when putting them on: The bushing was 1mm narrower than the steel arm fitted to the car at the factory. The mounting takes up the slack and since one is torquing it with 78ftlbs it matters not one bit. However it was interesting that a major supplier might vary a bushing size there... you'd think they make them spot on, but hey, manufacturers in Germany would know far more about these parts than mere 'users' like us I suppose. Maybe that is the spec for the Al arm in the first place- surely if they made major booboos like this their countrymen would give them some serious stick- but then again, if these cheap suspension components do work out to be as bad as some of us fear (ie that we have to change them all every time we do our brake pads) maybe this thinking is fatally flawed...

I wonder what they say on e34.de...

:) Nick

[genphreak]

One thing about these polls, you can't change a thing once they are set- I can see the statistical reason it is like this, but it kinda sucks as the poll needs probably needs more thought than I gave it:

To cover everyone I was worried I'd need about 150 options... but probably not if youy all give me some input :) so if you can give it some thought- please just reply to this post with any option/s you feel might be needed to the list... and in 3 days I will launch another poll with everyone's input included.
I am happy with them
I have what were called '750 Bushings': The suspension flops/shimmies and/or the bush has now failed
I have what were called '750 Bushings' in my thrust arms and they work just great
I have what were are definately BMW 750 or M5 trhust arm bushings from the dealer and still have failiure
My thrust arms have an OE style bushing (NOT a Green coloured bush) + they flop, shimmy or failed
My thrust arms have an OE style bushing (NOT a Green coloured bush) and they work just great
The boots have begun cracking on mine- at some point following installation
My ball-joints have failed or worn noticably
My swaybar link boots have worn noticably
My swaybar links have failed or worn noticably
Some other part inside them then failed
I have had a failiure as described above within 6 months
I have had a failiure as described above within 12 months
I have had a failiure as described above within 18 months
I have had a failiure as described above within 24 months
I have had a failiure as described above within 36 months
I have had a failiure as described above within 48 months
I have replaced some of the original parts on my car with Lemfoerder parts and am happy
I have new Lemfoerder parts and am unhappy as something like the above has happened to me within 3 years
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-
-
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-Any suggestions on the above would be appreciated :) Nick

[nuclearfusion]

I'd recommend a numerically-scored poll from 1 to 5 on no more than 15 questions. 1 = strongly disagree, 5 = strongly agree.

This would eliminate all of the negative questions.

Ask several small banks of similar questions in exactly the same way about the Lemforder and non-Lemforder parts.

(ie: bushings, balljoint boots, swaybar boots, swaybar joints)

Include a question about what each respondent believes is a reasonable expected lifespan for the product (same numerical scoring, this time in years: ie 1 to 5 as answers)

Include a question about the respondents' preference to replace frequently/cheaper or infrequently/more expensive

Finally ask a pointed "summing up" question at the end in which users get to conclude their opinion with a numerical score and a short (ie: max 100 characters) text entry.

That could work out well and become a very useful summary of experience for everyone.

Enjoy!

Fusion

[632 Regal]

another serious culprit i have been reading about braking shimmy can result from the caliper bushings being worn... food for thought. my mystery leads me into all odd forms of strange "thrust arm" problems and the calipers are high on the list.

[Anthony (M5 in Calgary)]

p.s. - has anyone tried the aluminum thrust arms with spherical bearings specified for the E31? They should just bolt right on. I think Bruno lists them on his site. I'd love to hear experience from anybody who's tried them...

E31 aluminum arms with spherical bearings are control arms (lower), not thrust arms (upper). Using a solid end on the thrust arm would be a disaster for a street car unless your roads are billiard table smooth.

[genphreak]

Bump!


'd recommend a numerically-scored poll from 1 to 5 on no more than 15 questions. 1 = strongly disagree, 5 = strongly agree Thanks for the input: That would be ideal, but forum polls do not have any proportional options; they are agree or disagree only.

Also the poster of the poll cannot control whether you can answer all the questions or not, so having a question and then a bunch more should you answer one way or not to it is difficult too.

So I need a specific list that will tell us all what we want to know, as opposed to interpreted heresay, wives tails, Chinese whispers (whatever you want to call it- in many ways it comes down to whether the inidividual is reading all the posts or if they are a blow-in visiting the board). Given any language differences this becomes much more valid, and we don't want to leave anyone in the cold. None of us like haivng to pull a fornt end down, especially in a crowded street in europe in the pouring rain and sleet! Life is good for us in the Oz; I know how easy it is to forget these things.

Having said that there will be some well-known members that have the wrong idea on something or two in there.

Which I guess is why we need the poll, so there is no confusion: So we can exercise smart judgement on what parts we whould install in our cars and not just buy the cheapest item that falls apart in 1/10th the time we think it will... let alone encourage decent manufacturers to give up on the Bimmer aftermarket and force us back to the stealer...

ps- Jeff, I will try to work out a way to limit the possibility of pad or caliper based brake shimmy skewing the results... :p

[genphreak]

Good details on a (previously unknown?) OE suspension manufacturer; SIDEM (http://www.sidem.be/sidem-products.htm) (Belgium)

Has anyone heard of this brand before?

I bought a pair of thrust arms made by these guys, from a local distributor here in Australia (ASV-Eurocarparts). $250 for the pair- ow! The arms came with green bushings and did look decent, but then again, they all do! They were well packaged with decent rubber boots, except that one boot actually broke as it was catching on the joint when I twisted the joint following installation to the steering arm. I am glad I broke it off the car, as it would have been tough to discover it later when the thing would have been out of warranty or at least be tough to get replaced. It delayed the job, but as I had kind and patient help (thanks again Kristian)we cruised down and asked (or more accurately made) them replace the arm so all was fine a few hours later.

They have an online parts catalogue for most BMWs in pdf form here (http://www.sidem.be/pdf/BMW.pdf).

I used it to see that if one actually orders e32 arms, one essentially gets the e34 arm with an e32 bushing ;) (since we know that the arm is the same and they show in this catalogue that there is a different bushing fitted to the 7 series arm (bushing part 821617 instead of the 821616 as fitted to 5er arms).

I cut out the pages from it that relate to our cars for easy reference;
e34
e31 & e32
e24 & e28There was nothing for the older 7 series e23. Directly below is e34, below that e31&32 and then e24&28.

You can check these out to see the differences in the parts. Looks like nothing is common on our cars to any of the later ones (e38, e39 e60, X3, X5 etc. the suspension systems have changed a fair bit in those models.
http://www.bimmer.info/bmw/genphreak2/SIDEMSuspensionCompsE34.gif
http://www.bimmer.info/bmw/genphreak2/SIDEMSuspensionCompsE31E32.gif
http://www.bimmer.info/bmw/genphreak2/SIDEMSuspensionCompsE24E28.gif

[e34musician]

Qube, how has your FCP "M5" upgrade set been holding up so far? I am thinking about the same upgrade. I heard some people have good luck with FCP parts. Please let me know. Thanks!


Well, my FCP "M5" upgrade set is still holding up after track day yesterday... but we'll see. I haven't driven her today yet, heh.

[Qube]

Qube, how has your FCP "M5" upgrade set been holding up so far? I am thinking about the same upgrade. I heard some people have good luck with FCP parts. Please let me know. Thanks!

Did an overall check when installed the short shifter last week and all is well. Only suspension issue is the struts are starting to go from lowering :)

[ryan roopnarine]

an old lemforder thrust arm that was already worn out, with really worn out ball joint (long story, store not open) was repacked with grease+new boot and refitted with a boge 750i bushing, and installed on the car. a new hamburg technic with its own 750i bushing was installed on the other side. within 10,000 miles the hamburg technic had began to clunk. the burned out lemforder took longer to exhibit failure than the new hamburg part. perhaps the hamburg only needs a new kraut bushing, but i still would have to take it off to replace it. i had assumed that people with problems with the hamburg had somehow put them on wrong, but i guess that i was wrong in that regard. if you are looking for cheap $hit, i'd try meyle before i tried hamburg again.

mind you, my car is driven REEAL hard, and used to be driven between 750 and 1k miles a week (city), usually. if people with garage queens are losing the HT parts at 10k miles as well, then the lifespan is mileage, and not ease of driving dependent.

[DABIMR]

Did an overall check when installed the short shifter last week and all is well. Only suspension issue is the struts are starting to go from lowering :)
So, it's safe to assume that the "ebay special" FCP Groton's "M5 upgrade" are worth it?

I'm hearing clunking noises (especially in slow speed turns), and my car has about 113K miles, so it's about time for a refreshening I would assume?

[632 Regal]

If you enjoy replacing them on a regular basis, might as well invest in a proper balljoint separator tool cause you will get tired of beating them out every other month.

So, it's safe to assume that the "ebay special" FCP Groton's "M5 upgrade" are worth it?

[DABIMR]

If you enjoy replacing them on a regular basis, might as well invest in a proper balljoint separator tool cause you will get tired of beating them out every other month.
I see..:p Looks like BMA, Bimmerparts, Autohausaz, etc., for proper Lemforder(sp?) parts.. :)

[e34musician]

Yeah. I have the same issue with my 100K 94' 530i (low speed turn clunk). Based on the statistics here, I swapped the sway bar links last week. But the clunk is still there. So I decided to change all the front-end suspension/steering components and struts now. It's time anyway.


So, it's safe to assume that the "ebay special" FCP Groton's "M5 upgrade" are worth it?

I'm hearing clunking noises (especially in slow speed turns), and my car has about 113K miles, so it's about time for a refreshening I would assume?

[e34musician]

Qube, Thanks for the update. I heard that you track your car as well. How many miles have you put on even since you installed the FCP M5 upgrade set?


Did an overall check when installed the short shifter last week and all is well. Only suspension issue is the struts are starting to go from lowering :)

[Qube]

"Worth it" is relative. Let's say for example:

1. best parts $300, 4 years
2. ok parts $100, 1 year

Ask yourself, are you all right with possibly replacing them each year? In that same respect, it's a wager whether you'd still be driving your car year after year *touch wood*. It's not that those parts are bad, just not as durable. You may very well get a set to last say 2 years or more. It's just more of a gamble than going with the best parts. It's a similar dilemma whether you want to repaint and go for the absolute best strip down prime etc... or just go with coat that will last you what... 3 years but cost much less? Then do it again? It's your call...

EDIT: at this point, I have about 20,000km on them.

[e34musician]

Good analogy. Bottom line: it's your own choice. I was just trying to get more info from others who use these parts. 20,000km is ~12,500 miles. Thanks!


"Worth it" is relative. Let's say for example:

1. best parts $300, 4 years
2. ok parts $100, 1 year

Ask yourself, are you all right with possibly replacing them each year? In that same respect, it's a wager whether you'd still be driving your car year after year *touch wood*. It's not that those parts are bad, just not as durable. You may very well get a set to last say 2 years or more. It's just more of a gamble than going with the best parts. It's a similar dilemma whether you want to repaint and go for the absolute best strip down prime etc... or just go with coat that will last you what... 3 years but cost much less? Then do it again? It's your call...

EDIT: at this point, I have about 20,000km on them.

[Vanguard]

Some more information regarding Hamburg-Technic. I'm in need of suspension parts, so I've been researching heavily. I like the price on the FCP Groton stuff, but I am concerned by all the negative comments.

I did some online research using WHOIS and found the following tidbits if anyone is interested.

www.hamburgtechnic.com is registered to Eurostar Industries in Stamford Conneticut. With an IP address of located in Leavenworth, Kansas.

Eurostar Industries can be found at http://www.eurostarinc.com/index.shtml.


Parts supplied by Eurostar are exclusive for North America from manufacturers in Germany and around the world. Eurostar strives for quality, excellence in service, friendly relationships with customers and prompt deliveries.

Googling Eurostar brings up the following link on the Indian Yellow Pages

http://www.indianyellowpages.com/foreign-yp/importers/automobiles_parts.htm

Which lends some credence to the now removed Alibaba reference site to Hamburg-Technic.

The Better Business Bureau Search could not find Eurostar and listed FCP Groton as not being a member, but had no complaints in the last 36 months.

[silver-e34]

i bought a set of control arms with the green bushings (750il) from bma back in 2001 they lasted me about 2yrs max then i tried the ebay front end parts with the m5 upgrade since the whole kit was the same price that i paid for only 2 control arms from bma and so far so good and i drive my car very hard. the only shimmy i get now is from the brake rotors warping from all the hard driving i do.

[genphreak]

Goood work Vangaurd!

Are the sheisters about to be unveiled?

Time to give them a call! Tell them you are looking for a good euro parts supplier for a parts business that supplies parts into Bahrain, SE Asia and Oceania or something. What brands of part do they distribute. Have they distributors there already? If they do ask if the turnover is good/satisfactory...

Ask them about the range of parts, the quality control procedures- are they made in SE Asia OR the EU and are they TUV compliant... where are they packaged... where can you source them from them- do they have stores in the US or elsewhere perhaps closer to your warehouses?

Plus what is the warranty... and their RMA procedure! :D LOL

425 Fairfield Avenue, Bldg. #4
Stamford, CT 06902 U.S.A

Tel. 203-326-5600 Main Line
Fax. 203-326-5601


EDIT:

They claim that all their parts are OE, OEM or Aftermarket OE quality. Hmmm- is this as dodgy as it sounds? :D

Warranty policy from the website:

All parts are guaranteed against defects in material and Workmanship for a period of one year from the date of the Original consumer purchase.

Our obligation under this guarantee is limited to replacement of the defective part or, at our option, repayment of the purchase price, conditioned in either case upon the return of the part to us with an explanation of the circumstances and conditions under which failure occurred. We neither assume nor authorize any other person to assume for us any other liability. IN NO EVENT WILL EUROSTAR BE LIABLE FOR ANY CONSEQUENTIAL OR INCIDENTAL DAMAGES, including claims for labor charges, transportation, or loss of revenue.

The information listed herein is correct to the best of our knowledge and belief, having been compiled from reliable and official sources of information. However, WE CANNOT ASSUME ANY RESPONSIBILITY FOR POSSIBLE ERROR.

[genphreak]

i bought a set of control arms with the green bushings (750il) from bma back in 2001 they lasted me about 2yrs max then i tried the ebay front end parts with the m5 upgrade since the whole kit was the same price that i paid for only 2 control arms from bma and so far so good and i drive my car very hard. the only shimmy i get now is from the brake rotors warping from all the hard driving i do.They are prpbably Meyle... which supplier did they come from? Merparts does a lot of Meyle cheap parts on the bay. Did you have HT or Meyle or (any one of the hundreds of others') markings on the packet?