Ot

[Alexlind123]

Your alarm goes off, you hit the snooze and sleep for another 10 minutes.

He stays up for days on end.
__________________________

You take a warm shower to help you wake up.

He goes days or weeks without running water.
__________________________

You complain of a "headache", and call in sick.

He gets shot at, as others are hit, and keeps moving forward.
__________________________

You put on your anti war/don't support the troops shirt, and go meet up with your friends.

He still fights for your right to wear that shirt.
__________________________

You make sure your cell phone is in your pocket.

He clutches the cross hanging on his chain next to his dog tags.
__________________________

You talk trash on your "buddies" that aren't with you.

He knows he may not see some of his buddies again.
__________________________

You walk down the beach, staring at all the pretty girls.

He walks the streets, searching for insurgents and terrorists.
__________________________

You complain about how hot it is.

He wears his heavy gear, not daring to take off his helmet to wipe his brow.
__________________________

You go out to lunch, and complain because the restaurant got your order wrong.

He does not get to eat today.
__________________________

Your maid makes your bed and washes your clothes.

He wears the same things for months, but makes sure his weapons are clean.
__________________________

You go to the mall and get your hair redone.

He doesn't have time to brush his teeth today.
__________________________

You are angry because your class ran 5 minutes over.

He is told he will be held an extra 2 months.
__________________________


You call your girlfriend and set a date for that night.

He waits for the mail to see if there is a letter from home.
__________________________

You hug and kiss your girlfriend, like you do everyday.

He holds his letter close and smells his love's perfume.
__________________________

You roll your eyes as a baby cries.

He gets a letter with pictures of his new child, and wonders if they'll ever meet.
__________________________

You criticize your government, and say that war never solves anything.

He sees the innocent tortured and killed by their own government and remembers why he is fighting.
__________________________

You hear the jokes about the war, and make fun of the men like him.

He hears the gun fire and bombs.
_________________________

You see only what the media wants you to see.

He sees the bodies lying around him.
__________________________

You are asked to go to the store by your parents. You don't.

He does what he is told.
__________________________

You stay at home and watch TV.

He takes whatever time he is given to call and write home, sleep, and eat.
__________________________

You crawl into your bed, with down pillows, and try to get comfortable.

He crawls under a tank for shade and a 5 minute nap, only to be woken by gun fire.
__________________________

You sit there and judge him, saying the world is a worse place because of men like him.

If only there were more men like him.


If you support your troops, repost this.

[Zeuk in Oz]

No doubt a terrible existence !

But if the soldier is part of a force that invaded their "enemy's" country, without that enemy declaring war on them, then perhaps he or she is not justified.

Donovan wrote a song about the "Universal Soldier" once and it is still true today.

[632 Regal]

I believe through the propoganda that we were threatened and called to war, we need to defend ourselves. Thats all propoganda, who knows what the fuk is really going on over here. You know more than we do.


No doubt a terrible existence !

But if the soldier is part of a force that invaded their "enemy's" country, without that enemy declaring war on them, then perhaps he or she is not justified.

Donovan wrote a song about the "Universal Soldier" once and it is still true today.

[Zeuk in Oz]

It is always the footsoldier who suffers or dies while the idiots that make decisions or start wars are miles or countries away and are not called to suffer at all.

Were it ever thus !

Go figure !

[ThoreauHD]

I think that most people think we invaded Iraq for the oil- even though we aren't getting any. Whichever being the case, I have no problems going to war with a country for energy. Oil, food, water, and air are national security interests. We're on a car forum for Pete's sake. What does that tell you.

Why do you think WW2 began? Really, read up on it. We cut off Japan's oil supply by navy embargo and brought their economy to a crawl. Then they blew up our naval harbor. They didn't pick us out of a raffle basket. We jacked with their oil supply.

I don't know why you folks think that there's something noble about war. There never has been. It's about aquiring resources and control. The civil war(land/labor-slavery), the revolutionary war(money), WW1(knocked off nobility), etc.

I personally think that we need to remove the problem in total. Move to Ethanol 85% and gas 15%. We can make that ourselves in the States. At that point, the only thing we have to worry about are Iran nuking our allies and some crazy muslims blowing up americans because we eat protein from pigs.

If you wanted a different outcome then you could have voted in different leaders. There was a libertarian on the presidential ballot in all 50 states. He was arrested trying to attend the debates with the other two jackasses on the ballot. They wouldn't let him in. In any case, I keep hearing that this war is bad. You're right. It sucks, but the problem is that we need to find an energy source to negate oil or else we will be fighting over it. And if we wait till later to fight over it, we may not be strong enough to do so... like Japan. In any case, that's my observation. YMMV.

[sKilled]

A soldier does what he is ordered to do. Do not judge the man, judge the government that manipulates him.

[Bill R.]

slice here.... If we did convert to e85 the approximate yield of ethanol from one acre of corn is 300 gallons per growing season. Our annual gas and diesel consumption in the US is approx. 200 billion gallons a year. So to yield enough ethanol we would have to convert 675 million acres of cropland over to Corn for ethanol.. the problem is that we only have 938 million acres of farmland in the US period which means that 71% of our farmland would be devoted to ethanol production. The 29% remaining isn't enough for food production for the US so we would have to import food. The price of food would skyrocket, and the price of meat would go through the roof. Millions would starve since we in the past have always sent huge food shipments to starving countries. The only country that has even been remotely succesful with e85 is Brazil and their net consumption of fuel is only about 3% of ours.
Also Brazil is using sugercane to produce their ethanol which is a much more efficient in the conversion process to ethanol, so they get a much higher yield.
We can't switch to sugarcane since it requires 49 to 50 inches of rain per year and temperatures above 70 or it dies.
We still have a long ways to go before we can think about switching to e85 on a large scale. Hybrids will be much more practical and will lend them selves to ethanol based engines and biodiesel engines in the long term.. In fact honda will have a hybrid turbodiesel that will run on bio fuel here in the next 3 years.

I personally think that we need to remove the problem in total. Move to Ethanol 85% and gas 15%. We can make that ourselves in the States. At that point, the only thing we have to worry about are Iran nuking our allies and some crazy muslims blowing up americans because we eat protein from pigs.

[genphreak]

A soldier does what he is ordered to do. Do not judge the man, judge the government that manipulates him.I'm sure we all appreciate this statement skilled.

I don't get the first section very well. Who on earth is it that ever judges the solider other than their superiors? I've never seen any significant body or quantity of people (that are anti-war) judge soldiers. Things are often mute when soldiers return from battle, in some cases national shame is rife, but that doesn't mean that anyone doesn't appreciate or support them. AFAIC work out it is just a sensitive argument about why they have to be sent or why it has to be done one way or another. I can tell you I sure do understand why many would be sensitive over such things.

Sure it'd be nice (some think) if they told our rulers to stick unfair battles over self-interest and money where they should be stuck, but no-one goes round promoting that other than a healthy political opposititon. After all, we are the one's sending them to (and paying them in) battle. Everyone knows their pawns in the power game.

[rob101]

slice here.... If we did convert to e85 the approximate yield of ethanol from one acre of corn is 300 gallons per growing season. Our annual gas and diesel consumption in the US is approx. 200 billion gallons a year. So to yield enough ethanol we would have to convert 675 million acres of cropland over to Corn for ethanol.. the problem is that we only have 938 million acres of farmland in the US period which means that 71% of our farmland would be devoted to ethanol production. The 29% remaining isn't enough for food production for the US so we would have to import food. The price of food would skyrocket, and the price of meat would go through the roof. Millions would starve since we in the past have always sent huge food shipments to starving countries. The only country that has even been remotely succesful with e85 is Brazil and their net consumption of fuel is only about 3% of ours.
Also Brazil is using sugercane to produce their ethanol which is a much more efficient in the conversion process to ethanol, so they get a much higher yield.
We can't switch to sugarcane since it requires 49 to 50 inches of rain per year and temperatures above 70 or it dies.
We still have a long ways to go before we can think about switching to e85 on a large scale. Hybrids will be much more practical and will lend them selves to ethanol based engines and biodiesel engines in the long term.. In fact honda will have a hybrid turbodiesel that will run on bio fuel here in the next 3 years.

I personally think that we need to remove the problem in total. Move to Ethanol 85% and gas 15%. We can make that ourselves in the States. At that point, the only thing we have to worry about are Iran nuking our allies and some crazy muslims blowing up americans because we eat protein from pigs.
interesting points Bill especially the farm area calculations, guess you guys could always make hydrogen from water using power from our uranium. just make sure you help us out when some imperialist bastard psycho takes over indonesia again. or you could just give us the bomb so we don't have to worry about the stupid indonesia's invading us or our neighbours again.

[onewhippedpuppy]

I'm sure we all appreciate this statement skilled.

I don't get the first section very well. Who on earth is it that ever judges the solider other than their superiors? I've never seen any significant body or quantity of people (that are anti-war) judge soldiers. Things are often mute when soldiers return from battle, in some cases national shame is rife, but that doesn't mean that anyone doesn't appreciate or support them. AFAIC work out it is just a sensitive argument about why they have to be sent or why it has to be done one way or another. I can tell you I sure do understand why many would be sensitive over such things.

Sure it'd be nice (some think) if they told our rulers to stick unfair battles over self-interest and money where they should be stuck, but no-one goes round promoting that other than a healthy political opposititon. After all, we are the one's sending them to (and paying them in) battle. Everyone knows their pawns in the power game.

Vietnam would be an excellent example of soldiers being blamed for the actions of their leadership. Soldiers were spat upon when they returned from Vietnam, can you imagine what that must have felt like? Returning from a long tour of duty fighting for your country, greatful to be alive, happy to be home, then some stoned worthless hippie spits in your face when you step off of the plane. It's a miracle there weren't more hippies killed back then, probably more than a few knocked on their ass. Vietnam was a f-up, pure and simple, but the soldier on the ground wasn't to blame.

As for the fuel issue, it's really quite simple for the near future. Expand diesel availability in the US, and create diesel hybrids. Making diesels more prevalent as in the rest of the world would help to slow our overall consumption in the short term, and diesel hybrids are said to be more efficient than their gasoline counterparts. All the tech is available, it's just that when Americans think of diesels, they think of the '80s GM products that belched black smoke, sounded like a semi, and exploded after 50,000 miles. This stigma has kept diesels from taking off in America, as well as insane new emissions laws. This could easily be overcome by subsidizing diesel prices to encourage diesel purchases, as in many european nations. Ethanol is a joke, and more a product of ADM and the farm lobby than anything.

[Maki]

Vietnam would be an excellent example of soldiers being blamed for the actions of their leadership. Soldiers were spat upon when they returned from Vietnam, can you imagine what that must have felt like?

Er, I generally try to stay out of OT discussions, particularly political ones (not that I'm a prolific poster anywhere). But I'm over 50, I remember the Vietnam era, and I can't recall ANY Vietnam vet I was personally acquainted with having been spat upon or even having anecdotes of people spitting on other vets THEY knew. Most of the guys I was acquainted with were relieved to be back and working hard at having a good time. Some were less happy (even screwed up), but their bitterness was directed more at what their government had made them do than the reception they got once they returned. That's my perception, anyway, from fairly late in the game, about 1971, when I was attending a community college that had a fairly high veteran enrollment. (No, I didn't serve myself.)

Beyond my personal recollections, which are limited ... say you were a veteran of a shooting war. You had seen men die and killed other men yourself. You're walking down the street and someone hurls a gob at you. That individual is going down for the count.

Only a person with a death wish is likely to spit in the face of a man they don't know, whose most recent job may have involved exposure to and/or participation in sudden, violent death. Does that make any sense?

A sentiment I think was widespread was that many people were uncomfortable about what was going on in Vietnam (especially after '68) and felt uneasy about acknowledging it. So returning vets most often were greeted with a crashing silence.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Born in 1980, so I was not around. But, I have read quite a bit of history, and have seen reports of that in multiple sources. I think that some, not all, of society wrongly directed their anger at the troops that were only following orders.

Edit: I did a quick Google search, and found this:
"Were you ever spat upon when you returned home to the United States?" asked syndicated columnist Greene of the Vietnam veterans among his readership. He received over 1000 letters in reply, many recounting specific details of just such a painfully remembered incident. Evidently this recollection of "hippies" (as they are often called in the letters) spitting on combat veterans has become one of the war's most unpleasant, enduring images. Conversely, other letters describe acts of generosity toward servicemen, from the typical free beers at the bar to a free show. But the over 200 letters excerpted here do more than confirm popular notions. They bring back the incidents of 20 years ago vividly, but not always with bitterness. And they reveal healing solidarity among veterans in response to what for many was not a happy homecoming. Recommended.

It's a review of a non-fiction book called "Homecoming: When the soldiers returned from Vietnam", by Bob Greene. Off of the Amazon site.

[calmloki]

I floated off the coast of the south on the WW2 can Mansfield doing 5" gun support and interdiction. Came back to the states and went back to sunny Westpac for a tour on the nuke cruiser Long Beach - mostly up near Hanoi doing plane guidance for our land based bombers. We were not popular with our smaller yellow brothers.
No one spit on me stateside, I wanted to hang with the hippies, and in my circle hippy was not a pergorative word. I don't think most of us felt a stirring amount of pride while we lost 2-3 times as many men each month as we have lost to date in Iraq. There was NOT any where near the "support the troops" hoopla there is now. Lots of guilt among the people I know who went there - not much of a movement to alleviate that guilt. No one called me baby killer either, but I would imagine that feels like being spat upon..

[Maki]

Born in 1980, so I was not around. But, I have read quite a bit of history, and have seen reports of that in multiple sources. I think that some, not all, of society wrongly directed their anger at the troops that were only following orders.

Edit: I did a quick Google search, and found this:
"Were you ever spat upon when you returned home to the United States?" asked syndicated columnist Greene of the Vietnam veterans among his readership. He received over 1000 letters in reply, many recounting specific details of just such a painfully remembered incident. Evidently this recollection of "hippies" (as they are often called in the letters) spitting on combat veterans has become one of the war's most unpleasant, enduring images. Conversely, other letters describe acts of generosity toward servicemen, from the typical free beers at the bar to a free show. But the over 200 letters excerpted here do more than confirm popular notions. They bring back the incidents of 20 years ago vividly, but not always with bitterness. And they reveal healing solidarity among veterans in response to what for many was not a happy homecoming. Recommended.

It's a review of a non-fiction book called "Homecoming: When the soldiers returned from Vietnam", by Bob Greene. Off of the Amazon site.


More than 8 million people served in the US armed forces between 1965 and 1973, if Wikipedia is correct. Was somebody spit upon at one point? Probably. Did someone get his melon cracked in response? I hope so.

Historical accounts from the period, both oral and written, are often loaded with hyperbole. In light of what happened, that may never change.

Here's a link to address the issue, far better expressed than I could do in haste.

http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Did_protesters_spit_050803.htm

And here's one about Bob Greene, and the collapse of his credibility as a journalist.

http://www.esquire.com/features/articles/2004/040506_mfe_greene_1.html

[Maki]

Sorry to belabor the point, but here's a better link on the "spitting protester" issue:

http://www.slate.com/id/1005224/

[trumpetr]

As we banter and jostle about, let's not forget the origin of this thread- and that is that no matter wich side of the isle you lean to, please respect the troops that are out there fighting for our rights to sit at our computers and yack about what we think may be wrong or right, on this, or any other forum, while they see things that the media does not want us to see.

[calmloki]

As we banter and jostle about, let's not forget the origin of this thread- and that is that no matter wich side of the isle you lean to, please respect the troops that are out there fighting for our rights to sit at our computers and yack about what we think may be wrong or right, on this, or any other forum, while they see things that the media does not want us to see.

Ahem, I think the media would like to show the nasty side of death: great ratings if you're cynical, desire to show the truth if you're idealistic. Our Gubmint has decreed that it would be unpatriotic and a disservice to the troops to show even the caskets of our dead being unloaded. That shames me for our country - showing the guts and blood of VietNam helped bring about the end of the war and quelled the tripe about the nobility of war. Damn us for allowing Empire to take hold. Nice backlash against the hippy one-worlders.

[Robin-535im]

All I want to know is -- who here has a maid to make their bed?

[DaveVoorhis]

As we banter and jostle about, let's not forget the origin of this thread- and that is that no matter wich side of the isle you lean to, please respect the troops that are out there fighting for our rights to sit at our computers and yack about what we think may be wrong or right, on this, or any other forum, while they see things that the media does not want us to see.

What kind of bloody nonsense is this? Where on earth are troops fighting for "our rights to sit at our computers?" One might argue that some troops are fighting for honorable or justifiable reasons, but fighting for "our rights" hasn't existed since WWII. As for what the "media does not want us to see," there is plenty that the media would like us to see that is blocked by government edict. The media is not at fault here.

[Zeuk in Oz]

As we banter and jostle about, let's not forget the origin of this thread- and that is that no matter wich side of the isle you lean to, please respect the troops that are out there fighting for our rights to sit at our computers and yack about what we think may be wrong or right, on this, or any other forum, while they see things that the media does not want us to see.
I think this might be a little bit of overstatement !

By "we" I presume you mean USA and I presume that you no longer have a draft for your servicemen who serve in war zones.

This then means that all of the servicemen and women "fighting for our (USA's) rights" are career soldiers. Does invading a sovereign country (Iraq), no matter how corrupt or evil it might be, constitute fighting for our rights ? I would argue not, and we have Australian servicemen and women in Iraq as well.

What we don't have is your death count.

What did they think that joining the armed forces meant ? Playing in a band ? What is the old saying : "join the armed forces, travel to exciting lands, meet new people and kill them."

The people I feel sorry for are the families and relatives of those who have died or been injured in any conflict. They are those who suffer most ! Through no fault of their own.

The big issue in Australia during the Vietnam war years was that we had National Service during that time and national servicemen were being sent to Vietnam. This was a ballot system where only about a third of eligible young men did national service. Now we also only have career servicemen and women.

As Hawkeye Pearce said in an episode of MASH : if there weren't any soldiers we wouldn't have wars.

Hawkeye was perhaps not totally correct but there is something in it.

[trumpetr]

I think this might be a little bit of overstatement !

By "we" I presume you mean USA and I presume that you no longer have a draft for your servicemen who serve in war zones.

This then means that all of the servicemen and women "fighting for our (USA's) rights" are career soldiers. Does invading a sovereign country (Iraq), no matter how corrupt or evil it might be, constitute fighting for our rights ? I would argue not, and we have Australian servicemen and women in Iraq as well.

What we don't have is your death count.

What did they think that joining the armed forces meant ? Playing in a band ? What is the old saying : "join the armed forces, travel to exciting lands, meet new people and kill them."

The people I feel sorry for are the families and relatives of those who have died or been injured in any conflict. They are those who suffer most ! Through no fault of their own.

The big issue in Australia during the Vietnam war years was that we had National Service during that time and national servicemen were being sent to Vietnam. This was a ballot system where only about a third of eligible young men did national service. Now we also only have career servicemen and women.

As Hawkeye Pearce said in an episode of MASH : if there weren't any soldiers we wouldn't have wars.

Hawkeye was perhaps not totally correct but there is something in it.

As I remember,,,there was no draft for aussies, either. Not WWII, not now.
Ballot system?? you mean, a vote? only those who wanted to be in the service were?

My point,,and my only point was,,,to respect those that have fought, for what ever the **** you think they were fighting for,,,(mostly for your right to say 'what ever the ****". Read back,,,i said,,,no matter what political affilation you have,,,,just respect the troops.

My son is is Iraq,,,,,82nd airborne,,,,,,his job is to protect the civilians of iraq from suicide bombers,,,and insurgents whose favorite weapon is improvised explosive devices placed along road ways,,,or in mosques, of fellow iraqis that are of a different sect.
He airlifts children, that are hurt in these bombings. They (insurgents) are not bombing americans,,,they are Shiites against Suniis, trying to kill each other off, an age old war, with little or no end in sight.

Isnt it nice that we can have this convo,,,between here and OZ,,,and no bombs going off?

Yor referenced "hawkeye pierce. It was mentioned not long ago in this forum,,about what america looks like, to other countries,,,,most notably to South Africa,,,,,and it was said,,,,what we see about america, is what we see on television.

All i was saying, is support the troops, no matter if you support the government.
Believe it or not,,,they ae fighting for your freedom, too.

I apologize again for my unforgivable breach of ettiquete in my use of punctuation.

[Zeuk in Oz]

As I remember,,,there was no draft for aussies, either. Not WWII, not now.
Ballot system?? you mean, a vote? only those who wanted to be in the service were?

My point,,and my only point was,,,to respect those that have fought, for what ever the **** you think they were fighting for,,,(mostly for your right to say 'what ever the ****". Read back,,,i said,,,no matter what political affilation you have,,,,just respect the troops.

My son is is Iraq,,,,,82nd airborne,,,,,,his job is to protect the civilians of iraq from suicide bombers,,,and insurgents whose favorite weapon is improvised explosive devices placed along road ways,,,or in mosques, of fellow iraqis that are of a different sect.
He airlifts children, that are hurt in these bombings. They (insurgents) are not bombing americans,,,they are Shiites against Suniis, trying to kill each other off, an age old war, with little or no end in sight.

Isnt it nice that we can have this convo,,,between here and OZ,,,and no bombs going off?

Yor referenced "hawkeye pierce. It was mentioned not long ago in this forum,,about what america looks like, to other countries,,,,most notably to South Africa,,,,,and it was said,,,,what we see about america, is what we see on television.

All i was saying, is support the troops, no matter if you support the government.
Believe it or not,,,they ae fighting for your freedom, too.

I apologize again for my unforgivable breach of ettiquete in my use of punctuation.
I must say that I have difficulty understanding how the invasion of Iraq is in any way preserving my freedom or right to say fu@k, but I will not go any further.

There was a draft in Australia to go to Vietnam - that is what we called a ballot system - everyone's name/number/whatever system they used was was placed into a hat (or computer or whatever) and approximately a third of the 18 year old population was made to do national service with a proportion of these ending up in Vietnam (my recollection is about half but I am not sure). In other words approximately one sixth of the 18 year old population ended up in Vietnam at any time.

I missed out on this lottery by 2 years. I was 16 in 1972 when national service was abolished.

When I quoted Hawkeye I was not suggesting that he represented a view of America - I was using the simplistic world-wide view that there could be no conflicts without combatants. It is just that, simplistic, but there is a grain of truth in the irony.

I feel sorry for all the troops in Iraq and their families, but I totally reject any justification for them being there. Desert Storm was completely different, in my opinion, as Iraq had invaded Kuwait. This conflict cannot be rationalised the same way. My view ? George W is certifiable and should be locked up.

Not that in any way I blame the troops. These are political decisions made far from the battlefield. I just feel sorry for all the suffering this conflict has caused both sides.

Perhaps the sooner America realises that no-one voted them to be the world's policeman we will all be better off.

I hope your son returns safely and there is a quick halt to the conflict. I cannot even imagine how awful it must be for you to have him over there.

I would also add that despite how left wing / commie / marxist-lenninist my views might seem, I am none of those things. I am simply sick and tired of people killing each other in the name of religion/oil/christianity/gas/power/lebensraum (strike out whichever is not applicable) and as the father of 4 teenage sons I totally condemn the continuing slaughter of young lives for no useful purpose.

[Fred Tyler]

If you can read this, thank a teacher!
If you read this in english, thank a soldier

[Zeuk in Oz]

If you can read this, thank a teacher!
If you read this in english, thank a soldier

I would rather think

"If you can read this in english (sic), thank Bill Gates !"

[mattyb]

yes exactly right! and that happens to be our "bought" uranium not leased oki doki!

[guinness]

Have to chime in here. I just got back from a deployment that included several months in Iraq. My fellow Marines and I are all volunteers, however none of us wanted to go to Iraq. I seem to recall that the U.S. was attacked several years ago by Muslim fundamentalists and in the course of fighting back we wound up in Iraq. I have heard that Iraq didn’t have terrorists till we got there, (don’t believe that) but if they showed up for us, then I would rather that we kill them in Iraq than in New York, London, or even in Sydney. They hate the whole western way of life. The idea behind the fundamentalist movement is that if you are not a good Muslim then you need to die, so we are right back to the beginning, kill them in the middle east or kill them here.