Did anyone see Schumi make his "mistake" in qualifying for Monaco's F1 last weekend??

[SharkmanBMW]

The 7 time world champ Shumacher, is he playing dirty again...?


http://f1.racing-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/060530014623.shtml

[GoldenOne]

haha, yes i saw that and wondered if he did that on purpose or not, i think it was...

[sKilled]

Just because he's Schumi doesn't mean he doesn't screw up, ever. I give him the benefit of the doubt - especially when you see him waving at the stewards to push him back so he could get out of the way and them looking the other way. And why was Fisi only penalised by 4 spots on the grid for 'intentional blocking'? Doesn't seem fair.

[SharkmanBMW]

I would have penalized him 10 spots, from the cockpit shots, his steering goes straight at the wall, he has no reason to do that, unless he wants to go straight!
He was going around a slow corner, so he wasn't sliding or out of control...

I would like to have seen him get a do over... meaning the others have gotten another 2 laps to compensate.
Alonso (who I dislike), would have likely still gotten pole.

I want to see Kimi get some better luck! poor guy, always going down in flames!

[jrobbo]

Just another in the very long list of "incidents" involving Schumi. It makes me wonder how many "incidents" he's had where he hasn't been caught. I also wonder how many of his 7 world championships he would have won if he had just played fair and square. His 1995 championship, won in the last race in Adelaide, has always been a bit dubious.

The thing that frustrates me is that he is clearly the best driver that F1 has seen since Ayrton Senna, so why does he contnually pull stunts like this? And I don't beleive that it's just him, it's Schumi/Todt/Brawn.

Anyway, just my $0.02

Regards

John

[sKilled]

Just another in the very long list of "incidents" involving Schumi. It makes me wonder how many "incidents" he's had where he hasn't been caught. I also wonder how many of his 7 world championships he would have won if he had just played fair and square. His 1995 championship, won in the last race in Adelaide, has always been a bit dubious.

The thing that frustrates me is that he is clearly the best driver that F1 has seen since Ayrton Senna, so why does he contnually pull stunts like this? And I don't beleive that it's just him, it's Schumi/Todt/Brawn.

Anyway, just my $0.02

Regards

John

Who doesn't 'cheat' in the F1 at some point and time, or any top sport for that matter? One just focuses on the sporting greats, but that doesn't mean that such acts of indiscretion are restricted to them - see High school football players and steroids.

[jrobbo]

Who doesn't 'cheat' in the F1 at some point and time, or any top sport for that matter? One just focuses on the sporting greats, but that doesn't mean that such acts of indiscretion are restricted to them - see High school football players and steroids.

That's a fair point, and a valid one. With Schumi though, I can sit here and reel off a list of his "incidents" as long as your arm, without having to put too much though into it. The most obvious one is Jerez in 1997. He denied that one for ages until he finally owned up and admitted it. But that's just one, there are many more. With any other driver in the field, If I thought long and hard about it, I could find one or maybe two indiscretions, but not a whole list.

Like I said, the guy is clearly the best driver out there, and he is also the most complete champion, I don't understand why he (and Todt and Brawn) has to pull these stunts time and time again.

Anyway, I'n glad he was penalised for it. And I also admire his tenacity in coming home in 5th place after starting from pit lane, once again proving how good he is.

Regards

John

[NY535iManual]

I am not a Schumacher fan by any means (his overbearing arrogance overwhelms any joy he might feel on "winning"), but I will of course grant that everyone makes mistakes, including him. I have no problem with drivers wanting to win so badly that they're willing to slip a knife between another competitors ribs in order to win (see, e.g., Senna, Lauda), in fact I admire this trait. BUT it is only right to do so in a fair (that is to say, head to head) fight, not when you scheme to AVOID going head to head. Be clever, be ruthless, have bigger balls, but DON't be sneaky and then with a wink and a poker face lie about it. Name the truly great champions of the modern era: JYS, Lauda, Piquet, Prost, Senna, Mika. (This list is one that often generates lots of controversy, but thats for another thread ;) Popular or not, beloved or not, to me they had the thing that Schumacher seems to be short on: Integrity.

Just my $.02...

[Jay 535i]

He should have been banned from the sport after his Jerez 1997 behaviour.

It's been almost ten years and I still don't forgive him for that.

[SharkmanBMW]

my fav was also "jerez '97" when he tried to run Villeneuve off the track as he was being passed for the championship! blatant dirtbag move!
Being a home fan of Jaques Villeneuve, we all freaked.... I have never truly forgiven Shumi for that, I agree he is the best, but he's got some issues.

you guys have made some good points... integrity is something he lacks, but not skill.
It is a shame he would tarnish his recent record of decency with a move like that.
But you are right, it is Ferrari, not just Shumi who is dirty.

[Jay 535i]

Yeah, true, he definitely doesn't lack skill. But at the same time I think he's slipping. I don't know if he's lost his passion, or if he's just getting old, but he seems to make mistakes more often than in the past. With the exception of Jerez 1997, I think it's safe to say that between 1994 and 2004 Shumi's driving was absolutely flawless. That's no longer true.

[NY535iManual]

Up until last year, Ferrari clearly had the best car on the grid, hands down. (Whether you attribute this to regulations tailored to either benefit or penalize Ferrari is a separate issue). I don't mean to denegrate Schumacher's skill or abilities (God knows they far, far surpass mine) but when you have a car that is better than all the rest by such a considerable margin a lot of mistakes are either hidden or over looked. Also, M.S. had some breathing room: Everyone else was running at 10/10ths just to sort of keep up with him, but Schumacher was able to back off slightly slightly and cruise at certain points in races. (Like F. Alonso these days). Less pressure sometimes but not always begets fewer mistakes. While I like Ruben Barichello, he was not (especially WITHIN Ferrari) Schumacher's equal, in a position to pressure him either or both equal talent and equipment. (Interesting contrast: Think back to McLaren Honda in 1988, when Prost & Senna were in a class of their own and would go at it hammer and tongs each race. I don't think either of them would have had it any other way.)

[kick7ca]

I'd say given his history, and looking at the events of last Sunday, it was intentional. FIA agrees. Press agrees. Guilty as charged. Go Alonso.

[Jay 535i]

You make a good point. It's hard to separate the driver from the car. That's especially true when you've got the best driver in the best car. I still think, though, car aside, Shumi is the most talented F1 driver ever. And I hate him, so don't call me biased ;)

The best way to measure a driver's ability is to compare him to his teammate. That levels the playing field. As you point out, Barichello is not Shumacher's equal. Neither was Irvine, nor Herbert. Nobody is.

You also suggest that, having the best car, Shumi was able to dial himself back a bit and therefore make fewer mistakes. That's interesting. It could be true, but giving anything less than 10/10 doesn't seem in keeping with what we know about Shumi. He's always said that the day he no longer feels compelled to give 100% is the day he'll quit. I believe that. He certainly doesn't need the money.

You point to McLaren '88 as a contrast to modern Ferrari. I'm not sure what point you mean to make, but I think the McLarens of that era were at least as dominant as Ferrari in 2000-2004. I think is was 1989 (?) that McLaren won 15 out of 16 races. So you could make the same argument for Senna as you make for Shumi -- that he's not as great as he seems because he was in the best car. You don't often hear people say that about Senna, though. Repect for the deceased, perhaps, or just the rose-colored hue of hindsight.

In any case, I've always considered F1 to be a team sport. It's not necessary to mentally separate the driver from the car. F1 is a contest of both driving ability and technical/engineering prowess. It never has been a spec class, and it never should be.





Up until last year, Ferrari clearly had the best car on the grid, hands down. (Whether you attribute this to regulations tailored to either benefit or penalize Ferrari is a separate issue). I don't mean to denegrate Schumacher's skill or abilities (God knows they far, far surpass mine) but when you have a car that is better than all the rest by such a considerable margin a lot of mistakes are either hidden or over looked. Also, M.S. had some breathing room: Everyone else was running at 10/10ths just to sort of keep up with him, but Schumacher was able to back off slightly slightly and cruise at certain points in races. (Like F. Alonso these days). Less pressure sometimes but not always begets fewer mistakes. While I like Ruben Barichello, he was not (especially WITHIN Ferrari) Schumacher's equal, in a position to pressure him either or both equal talent and equipment. (Interesting contrast: Think back to McLaren Honda in 1988, when Prost & Senna were in a class of their own and would go at it hammer and tongs each race. I don't think either of them would have had it any other way.)

[NY535iManual]

I think Prost or Senna is at least the equal of Schumacher, but my Prost/Senna reference before wasn't intended to say Senna is better than Schumacher. The point I (admittedly kind of slant-ways) tried to make was a bit different, and I think we kind of agree. You're absolutely right, the best way to measure a driver's ability is to compare him to his teammate. That's why I mentioned McLaren in 1988, when between them Prost & Senna won 15 of 16. Two amazing drivers, each pushing the other to be better, neither one able to back off, because to do so would cede the race to their rival/teammate. Schumacher has NEVER had a team-mate who could push him, and in fact has vetoed prospective team-mates he perceived as a threat. He has also always ensured that he was the clear #1 driver (in terms of treatment) at any team he was at. In fact, it is a sure sign of his waning influence at Ferrari that that team is (supposedly) about to sign Kimi R.

Schumacher and all successful drivers, really, should want to give 100%. But giving 100% does not mean that you drive as fast as you can for the entire length of a race. J. Stewart, Lauda & Prost have all said it: You want to drive as SLOWLY as you can and still win the race. Wouldn't it be foolish crashing out of a race because you were trying to set fast lap while sitting on a 20 second lead, 5 laps to go? This is why I say Schumacher benefitted from being able to dissappear off into the distance and then cruse the last stint of a race. He did it many times...

[Jay 535i]

I think Prost or Senna is at least the equal of Schumacher, but my Prost/Senna reference before wasn't intended to say Senna is better than Schumacher. The point I (admittedly kind of slant-ways) tried to make was pretty very different, and I think we kind of agree. You're absolutely right, the best way to measure a driver's ability is to compare him to his teammate. That's why I mentioned McLaren in 1988, when between them Prost & Senna won 15 of 16. Two amazing drivers, each pushing the other to be better, neither one able to back off, because to do so would cede the race to their rival/teammate. Schumacher has NEVER had a team-mate who could push him, and in fact has vetoed prospective team-mates he perceived as a threat. He has also always ensured that he was the clear #1 driver (in terms of treatment) at any team he was at. In fact, it is a sure sign of his waning influence at Ferrari that that team is (supposedly) about to sign Kimi R.

Schumacher and all successful drivers, really, should want to give 100%. But giving 100% does not mean that you drive as fast as you can for the entire length of a race. J. Stewart, Lauda & Prost have all said it: You want to drive as SLOWLY as you can and still win the race. Wouldn't it be foolish crashing out of a race because you were trying to set fast lap while sitting on a 20 second lead, 5 laps to go? This is why I say Schumacher benefitted from being able to dissappear off into the distance and then cruse the last stint of a race. He did it many times...

You're right on all counts there. Shumacher has always insisted he be the #1 driver at Ferrari. And I do see your point, that having the best car enables the driver to relax a bit and make fewer mistakes while also not demanding quite so much from the car.

Another interesting comparison is Hakkinen/Coulthard: two arguably mediocre drivers who did push each other very hard and secured both championships between them. In that case, it was certainly the cars and not the drivers that really won those races.

I think it's good that the cars are not all the same, but I also think the rules should be changed to increase the parity between all the cars. For starters, budgets should be capped.

[Black 535i]

I myself admire his skills at driving but dislike everything else about him. Senna was and always will be the best, Fangio second followed by Clarke, Hill and Stewart.


Schumacher's chequered history
By Andrew Benson
Motorsport editor



Schumacher's career has been clouded by controversy
Michael Schumacher is no stranger to controversy, and his banishment to the back of the grid in Monaco is far from the first time he has been accused of underhand behaviour.

The German's career has been littered with similar incidents, where rivals have accused him of going beyond the bounds of fair play.

Here, we highlight just some of the controversial events in which Schumacher has been involved in F1.


AUSTRALIAN GRAND PRIX, 1994
With the world championship at stake, Schumacher's Benetton slid wide and into the wall while trying to stay ahead of title rival Damon Hill's Williams.


Hill said he was "left cold" by Schumacher's attitude to fair play
Schumacher rejoined the track with a damaged car and Hill, who had not seen the German's error, attemped to pass him at the next corner.

Schumacher turned in on the Williams, putting both cars out of the race and sealing his first world title.

Hill wrote in a subsequent book: "There are two things that set Michael apart from the rest of the drivers in Formula One - his sheer talent and his attitude.

"I am full of admiration for the former, but the latter leaves me cold."


EUROPEAN GRAND PRIX 1997
Another title decider, another collision.

Williams driver Jacques Villeneuve would win the championship if he beat Schumacher, now with Ferrari, in the final race of the season at Jerez in Spain.


Schumacher faces a grilling following his punishment in 1997
Heading into the closing stages of the race, Villeneuve was closing on Schumacher and attempted to pass him at the end of the track's back straight.

Again, Schumacher turned in on his rival, but this time it backfired.

Schumacher's car was left beached in a gravel trap, while Villeneuve continued to finish third and win the title.

F1's governing body later stripped Schumacher of his second place in the championship, although it allowed all his results from that season to stand in the record books.


ARGENTINE GRAND PRIX 1998

Schumacher barges Coulthard out of the lead in Argentina in 1998
Schumacher barged David Coulthard's McLaren out of the lead in the opening laps by forcing his own front wheel inside Coulthard's rear halfway around a hairpin and moving his rival car aside.

To Coulthard's consternation, Schumacher was not punished.


BELGIAN GRAND PRIX 2000
Battling for the lead at 200mph, Schumacher moved aggressively across on Mika Hakkinen's McLaren as the Finn tried to pass.

Their wheels touched, but - fearing an accident - Hakkinen backed off, passing the Ferrari for the lead a lap later.

When the drivers climbed out of their cars after the race, Hakkinen took Schumacher to one side and left him in no doubt that he took a dim view of the Ferrari driver's on-track ethics.

In a news conference a few minutes later, Schumacher denied he had done anything wrong.


EUROPEAN GRAND PRIX 2001
Even Schumacher's brother has felt the sheer force of his determination to win.

Michael Schumacher made a poor start to the 2001 European Grand Prix at Germany's Nurburgring, while brother Ralf was much faster away in his Williams.

To stop his brother passing, Michael veered across the track at him, leaving Ralf with the choice of backing off or risk being forced into the wall. He backed off.


AUSTRIAN GRAND PRIX 2002

Schumacher benefits from team orders to win the 2002 Austrian GP
Ferrari caused outcry when they ordered Schumacher's team-mate Rubens Barrichello to move aside on the last lap, gifting Schumacher victory in a race the Brazilian had dominated.

The team were fined $1m and team orders "contrary to the interests of competition" were later banned from F1.


BRITISH GRAND PRIX 2003
Trying to defend his position from Renault driver Fernando Alonso on the opening lap, Schumacher moved across on the Spaniard at the fastest part of the track.

Although Alonso did not back off, Schumacher continued to move across, forcing half the Renault on to the grass at 190mph.

He escaped punishment.

[jrobbo]

1994 was a defining year for Schumi:

"Schumacher started the season strongly, winning six of the first seven races. The raw speed of the Benetton was a surprise to the other teams, who started allegations of cheating. They claimed Benetton had found a way to violate the FIA-imposed ban on electronic aids, including Traction Control, Launch Control and adaptive suspension. On investigation, the FIA discovered illegal software on their car, but could not prove that it had been used.

After Senna's death, Damon Hill inherited the responsibility of fighting for the championship. Hill struggled to keep pace with the Benetton in his Williams-Renault, but due to several mid-season controversial disqualifications and bans for Schumacher, he began to close the gap in the standings. In the British Grand Prix, Schumacher was disqualified from second place for overtaking on the formation lap. He then ignored the black flag during the race, for which he was later given a two-race ban. Things took a turn for the worse at Spa, where Schumacher was disqualified after winning the race, after his car was found to have illegal wear on its skidblock."

The Brawn/Schumacher team was alive and well long before they joined Ferrari

Regards

John

[SharkmanBMW]

I had forgotten some of the reasons why I didn't like him... I have a new dislike for his character.
I watched the quali on speed, and race on CBS, it was pretty pathetic, commercials during pitstops... **** coverage.
Today, I saw the ITV broadcast from Britain, it was perfect, they covered everything.
I highly suggest you download it with a torrent program, it shows interviews, pro commentary... they RAKE Schumi over the coals! It will not disappoint.

ITV rules! This will give you a whole other outlook on the race and events that took place.
download from here,
http://www.torrentspy.com/search.asp?h=&query=f1+2006&submit.x=21&submit.y=6

or the torrent links are in the zip.