Question: Alpina a BMW or not?

[t_marat]

Do you consider an Alpina a tuned BMW? Meaning it still has BMW blood in it. Or, is it completely different car, which can no longer be called a BMW? A car on its own, which is completely different from the original unmodified car.

[shogun]

Alpina are manufacturers not tuners, the German governing body has a loophole which allows Alpina to be classed as a manufacturer, they produce low volume cars which are titled Alpina as opposed to BMW.
They have their own chassis number besides the chassis number of BMW. Alpina chassis numbers usually start with WAP........

http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk/alpina.html

List of automobile manufacturers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automobile_manufacturers

[Nick.Hay]

Shogun is right, the are an independant maunfacturer, however, personally,

Neh,

Alpina is just a BMW with a few extra good bits. I'd be more than happy to own an Alpina (or 10!!!) and still call myself a BMW enthusiast. Same yummy lolly, different wrapper...

But do we consider a McLaren F1 as BMW?? Its powered by one of our own, has a fair few other genes from our beloved Bavarians...

Or the Fraser-Nash BMW 328... We love to take this as our own, but its heritage is FIRMLY British?? Do we still love it??
http://www.exoticar.co.za/European/EuropeanConvertiblesPictures/1938FraserNashBMW328SilverRHD1.jpg

Or the M1?? Lamborghini apparently designed the body (or something)... is it still a BMW, or a BMW powered Lambo with the wrong badges. (I know Lamborghini never actually finished a car...but still)

[t_marat]

But again, do you think an Alpina is a different car? I mean, its built upon a BMW. They make modifications, a lot of it; but the engine they make modifications on, the chasis, suspension and all the other stuff is a BMW stuff, right? So they build upon a BMW engineering, a BMW car. So can an Alpina car be considered a completely different (like Merecedes), not just a deeply tuned (modified) BMW?

[Alexlind123]

Its a BMW.

[BillionPa]

I consider Alpina like the M devision.

different models, different VINs, different factory, different people building it, still a BMW.

neither one designed it from scratch, BMW did, they just messed with the design to their liking.

[GJPinAU]

Do you consider an Alpina a tuned BMW? Meaning it still has BMW blood in it. Or, is it completely different car, which can no longer be called a BMW? A car on its own, which is completely different from the original unmodified car.
Sought of like how Callaway is to Corvette.

[angrypancake]

Alpina = badass, no matter how you look at it. I consider it a bmw. As someone already posted, it's like the M division.

[shogun]

It is definitely more than a tuned car.
New casted blocks, new crankshafts etc, have a look here
http://www.bmwm5.com/alpina/e39b10v8.html

And which of the 'tuners' has an own parts catalog for cylinder heads etc.?
http://www.betuwe.net/~heijckmann/alpina/frontpage.pdf

[Nick.Hay]

Well as Shogun said, technically its a different car, but personally I don't differentiate between the two, and class them all as BMWs.

Is Hartge considered a manufacturer too?? Or are they still classed as a 'tuner'??

[shogun]

Yes, Hartge is also an approved manufacturer since 1985, approved by the Federal Automobil Authority in Germany.
http://www.hartge.de/html/indexger.html

At least they claim it on their website.

[nuclearfusion]

In my mind an Alpina is a unique car built with BMW parts - still a BMW at its' core, but a breed apart. Although the two companies have shared a very close alliance and mutually beneficial relationship for over 40 years I certainly don't agree that Alpina is like the Motorsport division. (and I'll bet that Burkard Bovensiepen wouldn't either!)

As far as I know the other BMW tuners (such as Hartge, etc.) don't have the same kind of relationship that BMW has with Alpina. The two companies appear to be quite symbiotic - as an example Alpina did the engine development for BMW on the X5 high performance model, etc.

My experiences with BMWs, Motorsport-division BMWs and Alpina BMWs have been different in all cases. All the Alpinas I've driven and my own Alpina have a distinctive flavour that is definitely not standard BMW, and also not BMW M-division either.

I see BMW as a first-class automobile manufacturer, equalled by very few and bettered by yet fewer still. The BMW Motorsport division produces their own take on what a race-inspired version of a BMW car should be. Alpina produces their own take on what a grand touring version of a BMW should be.

Alpina's advertising line "Performance without all the performance" is not a bad explanation of the concept. Here's a quote from their website explaining more:


"The urge for that which is better and more special has thankfully not slowed in times of mass production, but has become, accompanied by rising standards of living, an eminently fulfillable desire.

Exactly this has been the motivation for ALPINA, a small but enterprising automotive manufacturer. To build special automobiles for a small circle of cognoscenti, for people who have a taste for exclusivity and the finer things in life, and who aren’t in need of exhibitionist exterior presentation in their automobile.

As we place less emphasis on an ALPINA’s exterior differentiation than we do in its inner values, we choose to draw the basis for our automotive work exclusively from BMW: a great marque, and one of the best and most technologically advanced.

And there, where the best with right assert that theirs is good enough for the masses, is where we begin to go to work for the few. ALPINA offers you, as manufacturer of refined, clever automobiles, the performance of an exotic motorcar without the trouble that often accompanies one.

These are automobiles whose chassis carry the fabrication experience of a first-class volume-market manufacturer. Automobiles exhibiting appropriate interior space and ensuring the efficient customer service of a world-wide make – namely BMW.

At ALPINA we strive for the synthesis of fascination and reason."

My B10 is quite unlike the 535i that it's derived from, and also unlike the M5 that it would seem similar to.

Anyway, from this Alpina owner's point of view, it's a special breed of BMW. Maybe a good way to say it would be that an Alpina is a unique car with a special grand-touring vision, and built with BMW parts?

Enjoy!

Fusion

[shogun]

Fusion,

do you know the German Alpina owner Forum?
http://www.alpina-gemeinschaft.de/

[nuclearfusion]

Fusion,

do you know the German Alpina owner Forum?
http://www.alpina-gemeinschaft.de/

I didn't know about it - but I'm very glad to hear of it!

I did know about

http://www.thealpinaregister.com/

and also

http://www.m5board.com/alpina/default.htm

Thanks for the new pointer!

Fusion

[t_marat]

who manufactures parts for Alpina? Does it have its own manufacturing capacity?

[nuclearfusion]

who manufactures parts for Alpina? Does it have its own manufacturing capacity?

As an example, in the B10 Biturbo, Lucas-Girling supplies the custom brakeset, Getrag supplies the custom 290 transmission, Garrett suplies the T25 turbochargers, Mahle supplies the pistons, VDO supplies the custom gauge set, etc.

Without knowing for sure I would presume that Alpina might have some manufacturing capability of their own - but I think it's pretty clear that the majority of their components are built to custom order by most of the same manufacturers whose parts make up the standard BMW cars, ie: Ate, VDO, Hella, Getrag, ZF, Mahle, Bosch, etc.

As for who supplies engine castings in the models with different blocks - I know BMW does some of them (the E39 B10 block comes to mind). As for heads, valves, etc. some of them are specially modified BMW parts, some custom made.

Unlike tuners such as Dinan, Hartge, Schnitzer, etc. Alpina does not offer alongside their complete cars a tuning "catalog" from which you can pick and choose bits and pieces for your non-Alpina BMW. They are careful to distinguish themselves from the tuner companies and take a lot of pride in considering themselves a manufacturer.

Enjoy!

Fusion

[RobPatt]

yes it's a BMW.

it continues on and improves upon the spirit and intent of the original BMW.

so it's a BMW.

whereas drop a chevy big block into my E34 and it's lost the spirit and intent, and traded bmw heritage for that of frankenstein.

[t_marat]

Comparing Chevy with Frankenstein, that is something new :)

Thanks for explanations, everybody.

[angrypancake]

Alpina does not offer alongside their complete cars a tuning "catalog" from which you can pick and choose bits and pieces for your non-Alpina BMW.
Fusion


oh but they do. (http://www.alpina-automobiles.com/pdf/teile_e34.pdf)

[Alexlind123]

yes it's a BMW.

it continues on and improves upon the spirit and intent of the original BMW.

so it's a BMW.

whereas drop a chevy big block into my E34 and it's lost the spirit and intent, and traded bmw heritage for that of frankenstein.

I agree most wholeheartedly.

[Scott H]

but they'd lose you in the dust as well.....if my M30 keeps giving me fits, I might see if an LS6 will fit.


yes it's a BMW.

it continues on and improves upon the spirit and intent of the original BMW.

so it's a BMW.

whereas drop a chevy big block into my E34 and it's lost the spirit and intent, and traded bmw heritage for that of frankenstein.

[Alexlind123]

but they'd lose you in the dust as well.....if my M30 keeps giving me fits, I might see if an LS6 will fit.

Blasphemy!!!

[VentoGT]

I'm not as familiar with Bimmers as Porsches, but it seems to me like Alpina is very much like Ruf when it comes to Porsches. It looks like a Porsche, starts life as a Porsche, but many many components are changed/produced/tweaked, and the sum of the parts make it a car with the basic attitude and look of a Porsche but in an altogether more serious package.

It seems to me that Alpina is very similar, although honestly I don't get the idea of throwing a slushbox into a Z8 and calling it a better car :) At the heart of the car is BMW underpinnings, so I still think that an Alpina is a BMW albeit a heavily reworked one.

[nuclearfusion]

oh but they do. (http://www.alpina-automobiles.com/pdf/teile_e34.pdf)

As I understand it, that catalog of parts is intended as replacement components, not specifically as an assortment of pieces to buy and bolt onto a non-Alpina BMW. (Note the absence of the Alpina head, headers, exhaust system, transmission, brakeset, etc. etc. in that catalog)

Enjoy!

Fusion

[e39dream]

however you slice it- the alpina cars are sweet. does anyone have a pic of their e39 diesel beast?

[genphreak]

If Alpina really mean this;

"To build special automobiles for a small circle of cognoscenti, for people who have a taste for exclusivity and the finer things in life, and who aren’t in need of exhibitionist exterior presentation in their automobile.

As we place less emphasis on an ALPINA’s exterior differentiation than we do in its inner values, we choose to draw the basis for our automotive work exclusively from BMW: a great marque, and one of the best and most technologically advanced.

And there, where the best with right assert that theirs is good enough for the masses, is where we begin to go to work for the few. ALPINA offers you, as manufacturer of refined, clever automobiles, the performance of an exotic motorcar without the trouble that often accompanies one".

Then surely they claim to produce a better BMW than BMW. We all know an M-car is no less refined or reliable than an Alpina.

And in the form of the E34, they did try as the B10 Bi-Turbo kicked the M5's preverbial!

And the same goes for many other models- is an SXX engine ever less bleeding edge as Alpina's product? In the e34 I think it was evident that BMW thought power was best gleaned from a normally aspirated twin cam (S38) version of the L6 engine rather than using any form of turbo charging as had been well-proven on the M88 engines. Indeed surely that was the more conservative or 'refined' option.

How can Alpina ever claim twin turbos, a hibrid ignition, intercooler, etc. to be a more refined solution? (Although it is of course, extraordinary)

And the e34 Bi-turbo was way ahead of the M5 of course. But the fact remains that Alpina really add a mostly similar set of aftermarket parts that BMW specifies on the M-car, plus stickers and plates galore. So why do they claim it to be less race-inspired, more refined and more reliable when it has twin turbos and is so much louder visually?

As I understand it the Alpina is usually marketed as a bit cheaper than an M car equivalent. So some say its a poor man's M-car.

However if it was the ultimate performance BMW; surely it would start with an M-car in the first place and get better. For example, in e34, they could (and let's face it- they should) have used a twin cam (M88/S38) engine, or they could even have added twin cam head to the M30 themselves if BMW were to expensive.

I think they walk a tight-rope with BMW, try not to damage public perceptions by upstaging the M-brand- it is more a matter of "just support the good thing we're all on here"

Which is perhaps why it seems to be all about semantics. Maybe only the Germans can really distinguish the difference -at a corporate, marketing or technical level.

To me it seems the best thing you can do is buy an M5 - or an M5 and ask Alpina what they would do to it... then ship it to them. Personally I'd be happy with a well turbocharged M-car- if going to Alpina is what I needed to do to get it, I don't think I'd want anything less. I certainly wouldn't want it stickers and flares. But I would want ALL the M stuff. But Alpina buyers are not like me, they have money and want to look flasher with it than BMW makes them look in an M-car I guess... this is of course the truth left out of the marketing ******** about "lace less emphasis on an ALPINA’s exterior differentiation than we do in its inner values".

Gorgeous cars though, they are a gorgeous iteration of the best there is.

[nuclearfusion]

But Alpina buyers are not like me, they have money and want to look flasher with it than BMW makes them look in an M-car I guess... this is of course the truth left out of the marketing ******** about "place less emphasis on an ALPINA’s exterior differentiation than we do in its inner values".

That's not my point of view at least. It certainly doesn't reflect why I personally bought an Alpina rather than an M-car. I really do think that the Alpina philosophy is different to that of the BMW Motorsport division - and at least in my opinion all the Alpinas I've driven and ridden in seem to bear this out.

However, perhaps you're correct inasmuch as it is in fact a different way of getting to a similar goal. Even if that is true (that is, that Alpina is lying and they are simply trying to do what the M-division is trying to do) it certainly can't be exactly the same goal.

I say this because it would seem to be very poor business practice on BMW's part to allow and indeed highly encourage competition to your own high-performance division while allowing that competition access to all your hard-won engineering and design values.

I suspect the BMW/Alpina relationship is rather mutually beneficial - they both certainly talk and act this way, and the results of their many collaborations seem to bear this out. If that's true then perhaps we can see Alpina as an external design consultancy with BMW - advising and consulting on some BMW projects and in turn using BMW as a strong basis for their own projects.

Here's another interesting point - the Alpina cars and M-cars built on the same chassis have never been remarkably similar in concept or execution. A very good example of this is new B5 and the new M5 - Alpina's supercharged V8 with Tiptronic (or whatever they're calling it nowadays) vs. BMW Motorsport's NA V10. Both incredible performers but really very different cars... different manners, different behaviour, different presentation, different "feel"... different goals? Not terribly different certainly, but subtly different surely. Alpina would like you to believe that the B5 is a hot touring-oriented car, the M5 a hot racing-oriented car. I wonder what those lucky enough to have driven both think. In a relatively recent magazine article I read (I know, I know - a very reliable source of information!) the authors seemed to agree.

This brings me at least back to my original position about the question "Alpina a BMW or not?" and my impression remains that an Alpina is clearly still a BMW, but a breed apart (in this way much like the M-division), but rather than moving forward with an internal, race-inspired philosophy (such as BMW Motorsport does) they seem to have an external, touring-inspired philosophy (in this way unlike the M-division).

Enjoy!

Fusion

p.s. - Finally, an interesting sidenote is that Alpinas need not be visually flashy. Spoilers and striping were always optional. Personally I find the Alpina rear spoiler a little overbearing. :)

[Nick.Hay]

I thought that Alpina would have colour-coded the sills and lower part of the rear bumper too... Perhaps a little mod overlooked by the firm?? Makes the front airdam look kinda a little out of place. All the same fusion, thats a stunning B10 my friend ;)

[Airborne001]

If it has the twin Kidneys, it's a BMW.

[Paul in NZ]

alpina et all always try to produce a new car based on the latest model soon after the introduction of said bmw.Can anyone illustrate the timeline showing release dates of the E34 then the B10,b10 biturbo e34 m5 ???

[zuzuk212]

If it has the twin Kidneys, it's a BMW.
So does Pontiac:p

Ken