Loose bolts inside a motor

[Ross]

I'm pretty new here and am prepared for the flack on this but I've gotta say this.
What is the problem with bolts falling out inside BM engines?? Not like it's minor **** either. One recent poster had NINE, phuking NINE bolts laying in his oilpan!! The M-30s would regularly wipe out cams because of banjo bolts loosening.
Doesn't Fritz own a torque wrench or have loctite??
I can't believe new buyers would put up with this.And nikasil????
Ford was nearly bankrupted because of a lousy tire problem that wasn't even their fault,nor Firestone's for that matter. Audi was punished unmercifully because some dumbasses couldn't tell the throttle from the brake.
Yet BMW customers seem to take it in stride when told the motor is toast.
"Brilliance" is a term floated out here recently.I don't think brilliant is the word that came to mind when any of you guys dropped the oil pan on your V-8s.
How about cooling systems on these things?

There are so many great things one say about our cars,yet some parts are just utter crap.And here we all genuflect to the Bavarian gods.
I thinks that a good part of our cars longevity is our own willingness to keep fixing them. That perhaps is the best testimony to the enjoyment they USUALLY provide.

[Phil Sanderson]

.

[Evan]

who pissed in your oatmeal this morning

[Ross]

Nobody, just saying how I feel bud.Got no beef with you either.

[mikell]

Pretty basic, isn't it? Just keep bolts from jiggling loose - hell, even the French manage that one. Maybe the Germans figure that you don't deserve to own one of their fine machines if you can't manage to drop the pan every so often to tweek things up. And, to make it even more challenging, they don't publish that as part of the regular maintenance regime. Maybe there's a secret society of the illuminated ones . . . oh, wait, that's this forum, right?

Now, anybody want to revive the rants about too much electronic crap on new BMW's? I won't buy one because I'd never be able to stand the cost of keeping all of that stuff working after the warranty expired. [Sorry for the digression]

[RobPatt]

...or a horse?

[pyro]

Ok... one thing to say about that is... Theres a difference between tires failing and motor failing. Noone died or got hurt because of nickisil or the banjo bolts. and the guy not figureing out pedals could have hurt someone (yes hes a jakca$$ but still) well thats it now i feel better.

[jbourke]

has its problems, join their respective forums and you'll know. What I love about the E34 is the overall clever design which gives a thrill maintaining. There is no perfect car although reading this (hardly objective) forum you would be forgiven thinking otherwise :D

PS I hate the less-than-rugged front suspension

[Ross]

Precisely my point.And how forgiving devotees of a marque are.

[Gene in NC]

BMWs are like trophy wives. An occasional exciting ride but every day it's pay, pay, pay.

[632 Regal]

Nikasil is a trophy in disguise.

[Spasso]

If you want to hear about arrogance from another car maker go to www.Ferrarichat.com.

The 355 has a list of chronic design short comings that Ferrari wouldn't admit to for a long while even though they have replaced many parts on warranty.
Some examples,

The exhaust headers crack and burn through repeatedly because the material is too thin from the beginning but Ferrari refuses to replace them with anything else but OEM when there are better aftermarket pieces available.

Early models had valve guide problems (too soft). VERY expensive fix on a 5 valve head (10 to 12k). After years of harrassment Ferrari finally gave in and started fixing them, for a little while. Now the owner gets stuck with the bill.

Exhaust diverter valves jam, 3k fix at the dealer.

Catalytic converters burn up on occasion, another 3k EACH.

Transmission in the 456 is non-rebuildable by anyone outside of the factory. It is strictly R & R with a new one costing 40k.

It goes on and on. It's not just BMW.

Ironically, I dropped the pan on the Touring used to have and there was an oil pump bolt laying in the pan. The only thing holding the pump up was two finger loose bolts, the chain tension and the oil pick-up strainer riding on the bottom of the pan.

[BlueM60]

I agree the pump bolts issue is a problem, but not even close enough to drive me away from a Bimmer. I think BMW, especially in the earlier cars (e28, e34 etc) builds one of the strongest, best engineered engines around. I have seen multiple M20's and M30's, even M50's survive years of torture by many of my very immature buddies who own these cars. I dont know many engines that can have over 250k and still see redline on a daily basis with no problems. I will admit the new N-series engines with Valvetronic are over engineered and I wouldnt have one. The early V8's had the nickasil issue but many are still running reliably today, My M60 is Alusil and I run it hard with no problems. I remember early Toyota engines blowing headgaskets left and right in the early 90's, and they still hold a rep for being a bulletproof brand. As already stated every make has its issues, anything mechanical will have to be looked after and parts will wear and break. Sorry for the long post.

-Ben

[632 Regal]

Nikasil? is that a fuel additive or something?

[Stacy (Sydney)]

Cars are junk slowly falling apart. Some fall apart slower than others. Drive a car you enjoy, and Ross is correct - to hell with any idolisation of brilliant engineering/mechanics and keep in mind that time and money is what keeps our 'hobbies' on the road. Sure, some are well built - to a price.
Car makers and mechanics love to hear enthusiasts wax lyrical about their beloved machine - ching ching - price premium.
Hunks of junk I say- but hell, they can be fun and make getting around easier at times.

[rob101]

Nikasil? is that a fuel additive or something?
don't you know anything? its a town in bavaria!

[Gene in NC]

Ross, you deserve support for your post. Right on! I don't own any stock in BMW, but if I did my question would be, "What the **** do you think your engineers are doing? I understand that you can't fire them in Germany, but try an American/Mafia solution, put a contract on the worst offenders. If not that, introduce them to the Japanese concept of Hari Kiri. Those bastards that the commit the most atrocious engineering sins should at least be offered a way to atone."

As per the Roman motto, can't remember the Latin, "With your shield or on it".
If BMW doesn't weed out this shithead engineering it will never end.

Think about Audi, saddled with the same German employment policies, all they did was win Le Mans for the nth time, but this year with a diesel, for Chrissake!

Yeah, it's 3:15 am edt, but that doesn't obfuscate the truth.

If the engineering wasn't bad enough, there is that bastard, Bangle. Probably had his pen in his one hand and his dangle in the other while drawing the recent monstrosities. Shades of the "new" Coke that damn near ruined Coke until they went back to the original recipe that they now call "Classic".

[Gene in NC]

How many BMWs do I, have I owned, prob far too many. Experience goes all the way back to '68 2002 with all aluminum rockers w/o bushings. Aluminum, with any assist it could gather from engine wear, lapped (wore out) the steel rocker shafts and itself.

Factory did stand up for this one with newshafts and rockers. Definition of standup: Takes your car out of service for a week for the repair.

Wouldn't it have been great to have been a user of BMW aircraft engines?

[Evan]

I've never heard of Toyota having this problem... or any other Japanese carmaker

[94_e34_525i]

Yes, BMW's aren't perfect but they are known for one thing building magnifacent engines. I dont have expereince in the M30 so I dont know, but I dont think its a common problem. And the Nikasil was just a experimantal thing to save weight it didn't work so they stopped. The cooling system is annoying because you have to use $20 coolant but hey its better than a $1500 dollar engine.

[31Hertz]

No mechanical object will last in perpetuum; how much $$$ would you be obliged to pay for that? Every vehicle purchase is a calculated risk. Every turn of the ignition key on ANY vehicle could be its last. Every time you drive down the road could be your last. (jeez I should've stayed indoors) It does not matter so much WHAT you drive, but HOW you drive. Enjoy what you drive and drive what you enjoy; no matter what the marque is... We are fortunate to have vehicles whether we appreciate it or not... :D

[Evan]

and those who don't appreciate can buy a toyota

[Scott C]

and those who don't appreciate can buy a toyota

Naw, toyota has a oil sludge problem ;)

[genphreak]

Yes, BMW's aren't perfect but they are known for one thing building magnifacent engines. I dont have expereince in the M30 so I dont know, but I dont think its a common problem. And the Nikasil was just a experimantal thing to save weight it didn't work so they stopped. The cooling system is annoying because you have to use $20 coolant but hey its better than a $1500 dollar engine.Banjo bolts are an easy fix, and if tightened to spec and regularly maintained do not come loose, except perhaps on a few vehicles. Ultimately the problem was addressed.

You can't be perfect when building complex machines in a production process.

Toyota throws design, quality, panache and practically everything else to the wind to avoid these problems. BMW edoes the opposite, which is why I own, and enjoy my e34. I adjust my valves every 40,000km and loctite my banjo bolts. Haven't loosened yet, but Gale's bolts are going in next time for added insurance. $5 worth of hassle. big deal.

:) Nick

ps I agree the oil pump bolts looked bad, but- did it fail? And how many does this happen in? It can't be the first as lots of poeple have them- but are there many?

[rob101]

You can't be perfect when building complex machines in a production process.

man i could tell some stories about that stuff.
there is a reason that there are scientists and engineers.
Because everything has errors in it to differing magnitudes.
scientists say this is how it is, engineer says well lets see no, no and no thats not exactly right, but we can still make it work if i assume A B C and D.
perfect example, newtonian physics has been disproven, however everyone uses neutonian physics to design virtually everything around us.
and guess what everything still goes and generally stays functioning as it should, even though those theories aren't correct.

you will find the majority of engineering is science with assumptions thrown it to make the science possible to work with. so in essence the engineer still knows there are problems with everything it is nature of reality everything is wrong to some degree.
which leds me to the fact that BMW did release replacement banjo bolts in a recall to fix the problem because they did pick it up didn't they?

[chris_e34]

I've never heard of Toyota having this problem... or any other Japanese carmaker

The few times I have dealt with blown head gaskets in my own cars, have all been in Japanese cars. One exception... I blew the hg in my m60 but I knew it was going to happen (no working cooling system) and I was broke with now access to a tow truck to bring it a mile home. I was planning an engine rebuild anyway.... my point.... out of all my cars ive ever owned in similar condition, the only head gasket failure ive seen through normal use have been in Japanese cars. I drove my Pontiac 6000 over 500 miles with the temp floating around the red. Never once had a blown head gasket on that bad boy.

As for the oil pump bolts, I have not once heard about an oil pump falling off or failing due to this problem...probably because it wasn’t a wide spread issue. I just pulled my oil pan and the only thing floating around in there was a 3/8 socket that didn’t belong to me.

[yaofeng]

I don't understand some of you guys' comment, like buying a Toyota, or no mechanical object will last forever. They are beside the point. A properly designed engine should not have to be opened up to check or tighten the oil pump bolt every 50k or even 100k miles. We accept a timing chain inside an engine as not a maintenance item. By the same token, an oil pump, chain driven or otherwise, is also not an maintenance item. It should last the life of the engine.

This is clearly something BMW missed which it never admitted to be at fault, like the Nikasil issue. Fortunately the symptom seems to be limited to the V8. We owners of handmedown M60's naturally have no recourse. I just hope BMW learned this and improved the design in later poduction engine models.

Sometimes I think the cult like following is making BMW arrogant. You and I all share some responsibility.

[Scott C]

I don't understand some of you guys' comment, like buying a Toyota, or no mechanical object will last forever. They are beside the point. A properly designed engine should not have to be opened up to check or tighten the oil pump bolt every 50k or even 100k miles. We accept a timing chain inside an engine as not a maintenance item. By the same token, an oil pump, chain driven or otherwise, is also not an maintenance item. It should last the life of the engine.

This is clearly something BMW missed which it never admitted to be at fault, like the Nikasil issue. Fortunately the symptom seems to be limited to the V8. We owners of handmedown M60's naturally have no recourse. I just hope BMW learned this and improved the design in later poduction engine models.

Sometimes I think the cult like following is making BMW arrogant. You and I all share some responsibility.


While you might wish for a 100K engine that does not require opening... I prefer to think of my BMW as a sister to the Space Shuttle, which if I recall requires even MORE maint than my 10 year old car ;)

[Alexlind123]

The m30 engine has been known to last 500,000MILES before a rebuild...if thats not fantastic engineering, i dont know what is...

[infinity5]

I have to admit i am slightly annoyed that my oil pump bolts can come loose and plop out, but i imagine modeling vibrations on an engine like this at some distant point in its service life is extremely hard to do.

I've have several problems with my car, but quite honestly the only thing i ask of my vehicles is that they don't die on me while i'm driving them, and their transmissions don't die before i sell them :)

you forget how high quality the parts in your car are (especially inside the cabin) until you drive and service another one. ever single time i drive another persons car, and then get back into mine i just think damn, this is smooth as silk. I imagine most high end cars are like that, but i happen to have a bmw.

[genphreak]

Your eloquence is excellent as ever, Mr Rob! Now it is time for us to go drive Toyotas for a year and start posting about inaccurate science and engineering that suits the marketing dept and the marketing dept alone... :) Nick

[Spasso]

As for the oil pump bolts, I have not once heard about an oil pump falling off or failing due to this problem...probably because it wasn’t a wide spread issue. I just pulled my oil pan and the only thing floating around in there was a 3/8 socket that didn’t belong to me.

From the reading I have done I have never heard of an oil pump falling off but many many stories of loose or fallen bolts. If I purchase another M60 you can bet the first thing I do is drop the pan.

After pulling the pan on the Touring AND my sedan no bolts were laying in the pan on the sedan but they were not very tight.

My thoughts are, between the chain holding the pump up from above and the oil pick-up supporting it from the bottom can it really fall off? I'm glad neither did and no damage was found on either car. I retensioned the chains and reinstalled the bolts with red Loctite. Both run perfectly and that is all that matters.

[rob101]

unfortunately Nick marketting and engineering are connected, you don't go out and try and design buggatti veyron's to sell to 80 year old women.

on nikasil the problem was BMW assumed decent fuel. assumption is wrong therefore the thing fell on its ass. it was the assumption that was wrong not the underlying engineering. after all nikasil has only been a major problem in the US where fuel had as much sulfur as coal.

[yaofeng]

Your eloquence is excellent as ever, Mr Rob! Now it is time for us to go drive Toyotas for a year and start posting about inaccurate science and engineering that suits the marketing dept and the marketing dept alone... :) Nick

Many of us will be bored driving the Toyotas and Hondas. I don't mean bored in the sense of car performance. I for one will be watching TV all the time grwing a beer gut because I don't need to work on the car anymore. At least not as frequently as I do now.

[632 Regal]

I still prefer Nikasil over the other unbranded Vodka

[BillionPa]

BMW didnt make nikasil, Mahle did, and more than BMW used it, like Ford/Jaguar/Porsche/Chevy race engines, and more, and it has been used for over 30 years! only BMW seems to have gotten the bad rap for some reason.

[rob101]

BMW didnt make nikasil, Mahle did, and more than BMW used it, like Ford/Jaguar/Porsche/Chevy race engines, and more, and it has been used for over 30 years! only BMW seems to have gotten the bad rap for some reason.
yes but bmw specified it, just as lemfoerder made the evil bushings that flog out. its bmw's fault for specifying them!

[genphreak]

WTF? Rob, Are you seriously dissin' the Veyron (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkS3pxYCBLg)? (you know that was a marketing exercise only... the engineers were doing what VW marketing told em to...) But yes, Bugatti is a failed commerical example.

BMW is a winning one, though perhaps the culture has waned since the 70s, 80s and maybe even the 90s :)

[rob101]

WTF? Rob, Are you seriously dissin' the Veyron (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkS3pxYCBLg)? (you know that was a marketing exercise only... the engineers were doing what VW marketing told em to...) But yes, Bugatti is a failed commerical example.

BMW is a winning one, though perhaps the culture has waned since the 70s, 80s and maybe even the 90s :)
duuuude i wasn't paying out the veyron but my point was you don't try and sell ice to eskimos. (ie sell sports cars to geriatics)

[mattyb]

yes! Damn them to the burning fires of hell i say.

[brosher]

My previous vehicle was a 2002 Supercharged Tacoma. It was a beautiful truck, very practical and at 52,000 miles could be mistaken for brand new when driven. The only thing I ever replaced was a $4 spring squeaking in the clutch pedal. I got rid of it because ultimatley it was boring.

Now I have my E34. I've already replaced a coolant hose and the heater core needs to be done. Replaced some small stuff like the gas door hinge. In the end I couldn't be happier. I think part of it comes down to me working at a desk in front of a screen all day. I enjoy taking time to tinker and work with my hands. Even if it is frustrating at times (see my recent post) it's fun and enjoyable for me.