Car Died. Diagnosis?

[liquidtiger720]

So guys....the car died today in a parking lot.

~Car was running fine all day.
~I turned the car on to leave the lot, and it started fine. As I started backing out, the car starts to stutter and eventually shuts itself off.
~Try again, engine tries to start....stays on (running rough) for a few seconds, and dies.
~ Try again...all thats happening is the starter spinning the engine.


~verdict??


Sounds like a fuel pump to me, but I'd like to know everybody else's opinion first on what to check before I buy the parts to replace. Thanks!

[cableface]

So guys....the car died today in a parking lot.

~Car was running fine all day.
~I turned the car on to leave the lot, and it started fine. As I started backing out, the car starts to stutter and eventually shuts itself off.
~Try again, engine tries to start....stays on (running rough) for a few seconds, and dies.
~ Try again...all thats happening is the starter spinning the engine.


~verdict??


Sounds like a fuel pump to me, but I'd like to know everybody else's opinion first on what to check before I buy the parts to replace. Thanks!
Simple stuff first. How long has it been since the fuel filter was changed?

[HDhandyman]

Well, I mean if you're gonna change the fuel filter, why wouldn't you just change the fuel pump @ the same time, cableface?

[Alexlind123]

Well, I mean if you're gonna change the fuel filter, why wouldn't you just change the fuel pump @ the same time, cableface?

Uhh...the fuel filter is a completely different animal from the fuel pump. The fuel pump is at the bottom of the fuel tank. The fuel filter is outside the tank right by the passenger side wheel and it very easy to replace. Could it perhaps be that youre out of gas? Is it possible that your fuel guage failed?

[cableface]

Well, I mean if you're gonna change the fuel filter, why wouldn't you just change the fuel pump @ the same time, cableface?
Well, I changed my filter out in about 15 mins at a cost of 10 bucks. Pretty sure that the pump takes a couple hours or so, depending on if you have to cut the lines. I know it for sure costs more. Plus the filter's regular maintanence. At least that's the way I was taught :)

[cableface]

Uhh...the fuel filter is a completely different animal from the fuel pump. The fuel pump is at the bottom of the fuel tank. The fuel filter is outside the tank right by the passenger side wheel and it very easy to replace. Could it perhaps be that youre out of gas? Is it possible that your fuel guage failed?
That's an excellent point. That happened to me on a Toyota. I felt pretty embarassed but there was really no way to know with a faulty gauge.

[wingman]

Well, I mean if you're gonna change the fuel filter, why wouldn't you just change the fuel pump @ the same time, cableface?

Fuel filter= about $30 Fuel Pump= about $300. Do you buy a new pair of shoes every time you change your socks?:D

[liquidtiger720]

Fuel filter was replaced about 30,000 miles ago?

[cableface]

Fuel filter was replaced about 30,000 miles ago?
Hmm... prolly needs changed but I doubt that's your problem. I guess it's on to a fuel compression test????

[wingman]

I had a couple of fuel pumps go in the E12. Usually due to crappy fuel. When they went the car didn't even start I just got the starter spinning and that's it. Get someone to start the car when you are down the back near the tank. If you can't hear the pump buzzing that could be your problem. If it isn't you'll have to find out why (pump itself, fuse for pump, loose wire etc etc). Good luck.

[liquidtiger720]

Exactly, how does one do a fuel compression test?


I'll be looking for the fuses and relays and whatnot tommorow. I'll also check for the buzzing.

Thanks guys :)

[cableface]

Exactly, how does one do a fuel compression test?


I'll be looking for the fuses and relays and whatnot tommorow. I'll also check for the buzzing.

Thanks guys :)
Easiest way I've found to do it, is to use the nearest mechanic. You'd have to buy the proper guage otherwise. I had mine done for fairly cheap. It's been a while but I think it was only like 30-40 bucks but that was an Indy Mech.

[liquidtiger720]

Any other home tests that I could do?

I was hoping I didnt have to get it towed again.

[cableface]

Any other home tests that I could do?

I was hoping I didnt have to get it towed again.
Disconnect the fuel line and visually look at it. The fuel pressure would have to be OBVIOUSLY low for it to not even run. At least that's what my intuition tells me. If it just a trickle or like an old man pissing, then the pump or the filter is probably the problem. If it's jetting out then you need to look elsewhere.

[BillionPa]

check to see if you are getting a spark during cranking.
the crank position sensor may have died.
30K is way overdue for a fuel filter.
try DME and fuel pump relays first though.

[joshua43214]

No starts prety much all start the same. Check for fuel and check for spark. If you don't have access to the proper test gear, you pretty much have to have a let a mechanic look at it.

It does sound like a fuel problem to me, drag an assistant along and have them crank the engine while you hit the bottom of the tank with a big rubber mallet. If the car starts, you need a fuel pump.

[Jon K]

Easiest way I've found to do it, is to use the nearest mechanic. You'd have to buy the proper guage otherwise. I had mine done for fairly cheap. It's been a while but I think it was only like 30-40 bucks but that was an Indy Mech.


I bought my fuel pressure gauge, brass T adpater and fuel line for ~$30

[t_marat]

When I had a fuel pump failure, mechanic sprayed something called "rapid start" into one of the tubes in the engine bay, while I was cranking the starter. And the engine came alive, which meant no fuel.
You can check with a multimeter if the pump is getting electricity. I think this is the easiest one to do, provided you have the multimeter. Plus the fusebox.

[liquidtiger720]

How does one check for spark?


Take the plug out set it down on something stable and crank it? Sorry, I am a noob. And, no...I don't have money to take the car to a mechanic. I am a poor college student. Trying to figure this one out on my own first. ;)

[SharkmanBMW]

How does one check for spark?


Take the plug out set it down on something stable and crank it? Sorry, I am a noob. And, no...I don't have money to take the car to a mechanic. I am a poor college student. Trying to figure this one out on my own first. ;)

I would start with the filter, every time I brought my car to the e34 indy, he insisted on changing it - years of constant problems with e34 filter issues taught him well!

simple and cheap, worth a shot.
Were you low on fuel? Climb a hill?

I ran out of fuel in the 540 a few times, it seemed that because of my driveway (big hill), if I was low, the tilt would empty the tank enough to one end that I couldn't restart it without adding a few gallons.

It sounds like what you described, sputtering, then dead. After refueling a bit, it would crank for a minute before starting up as well, it was not instant, and would chug for 30 seconds before idling smooth.
Good luck.
Surely, the big guns of the forum will be around soon to help you out though!

[Bill R.]

2 years, what posts do you read? First off , liquids don't compress, so there's no compression test for fuel. There is a pressure test however. You have to buy a fuel pressure test gauge from autozone for about 39 bucks, then you have to buy a Brass T fitting and some fuel line and hose clamps so you can T into the fuel line going into the Fuel rail where the injectors are mounted. As shown here the line at the front of the fuel rail is the pressure side from the fuel pump. You want to put your t fitting here at the rubber fuel line connecting to this line. Then while cranking the engine you check the gauge for fuel pressure, 35 to 45 is what your looking for as a minimum. If you have fuel pressure , then you need to buy an extra spark plug and remove one coil from one of your spark plugs, put the extra spark plug into that coil and hold the threaded part of the spark plug against the side of the engine on a good ground. Have someone crank it while checking the plug to see if its sparking. Don't do this after you did the fuel pressure test if you spilled gas all over the place. If you have spark but not fuel pressure check the fuel pump relay in the box on the passenger side where the DME is .





How does one check for spark?


Take the plug out set it down on something stable and crank it? Sorry, I am a noob. And, no...I don't have money to take the car to a mechanic. I am a poor college student. Trying to figure this one out on my own first. ;)

[Bill R.]

needs the least amount of gas to run. The engine at wide open throttle at 90mph needs the most amount of gas to run. When a fuel filter gets plugged up the Engine won't run at high speed because it can't get enough fuel but typically it will easily get enough to run at Idle.... This fuel filter thing is a plot by autozone to sell more filters;) So the first symptom of a plugged up fuel filter is no high speed power or no high speed period...





I would start with the filter, every time I brought my car to the e34 indy, he insisted on changing it - years of constant problems with e34 filter issues taught him well!

simple and cheap, worth a shot.
Were you low on fuel? Climb a hill?

I ran out of fuel in the 540 a few times, it seemed that because of my driveway (big hill), if I was low, the tilt would empty the tank enough to one end that I couldn't restart it without adding a few gallons.

It sounds like what you described, sputtering, then dead. After refueling a bit, it would crank for a minute before starting up as well, it was not instant, and would chug for 30 seconds before idling smooth.
Good luck.
Surely, the big guns of the forum will be around soon to help you out though!

[liquidtiger720]

Well, the spark works. I didnt have a fuel gauge thing to test the pressure.


No sounds are coming from the pump area either. The fuse is okay. Is there a relay that I am missing/can't find?



Yea, Bill....I read a lot of everything....but for some reason, pressure testing the fuel system was something I never read about, nor could I find it. When it comes to cars....I know nothing, and am very scared to mess with them.

[Bill R.]

terminals 30 and 87 from the fuel pump relay in the ebox as seen here. Take a short piece of wired and jumper from where the relay plugs into terminal 30 and 87, with the key on , go remove the gas cap from the tank and listen to see if you can hear the pump running

The fuel pump relay is k6301 in the picture







Well, the spark works. I didnt have a fuel gauge thing to test the pressure.


No sounds are coming from the pump area either. The fuse is okay. Is there a relay that I am missing/can't find?



Yea, Bill....I read a lot of everything....but for some reason, pressure testing the fuel system was something I never read about, nor could I find it. When it comes to cars....I know nothing, and am very scared to mess with them.

[ThoreauHD]

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y106/toasty0z/Oooo.jpg

[liquidtiger720]

Jumped the terminals....and still no sound from the fuel pump. (at least none that I could hear). Is it safe to assume that the pump outright died?


Thanks Bill for the info.

[Kalevera]

Yes, my first thought when reading the initial post was failure of the pump or relay -- a sputtering death usually means there's some kind of spark.

Pull the fuel pump, bench test it to confirm failure. Hopefully the car doesn't have more than half of a tank of gas in it, otherwise -- wear a big and thick rubber glove ;) Wear it anyway, actually.


best, whit

[gmannino]

You can pull out all your spark plugs, easy thing to do, and then try to crank the engine with the fuel relays still plugged in. If your fuel system is working you will smell a very clear amount of fuel, cant miss it. But if you crank it and there are no smells of fuel, you know your not getting fuel in those cylinders. Also if your fuel pump isnt making sounds, then you probably found your problem. You can pull out the fuel pump and send power to it manually to test to see if it indeed it blown out.

Hope ya get it running, its a beautiful e34.

[liquidtiger720]

New fuel pump works like a charm....cept it's kind of noisy, the whine is louder than I thought it would be.

Fuel filter is changed too :)

[BillionPa]

grab a bottle of lucas upper cylinder lubricant, and put the proper amount in the tank, should shut the pump up.

[SC David]

Ah yes, the SF cars are back on the road. It's going to be time for an East Bay drive soon. Come to think of it, it's about time for the 5er meet.

[adamisbomb]

ive had the same EXACT thing happen, fuel filter this morning didnt do much, so picking up fuel filter today and see if it works. this thread has been great

[saj3n]

New fuel pump works like a charm....cept it's kind of noisy, the whine is louder than I thought it would be.

Fuel filter is changed too :)

MAN! I apologize for not jumping onto this tread earlier... :( Not sure how much you paid for the fuel pump, I had an extra one when I was doing diags with my vehicle, never used.... :(

[saj3n]

ive had the same EXACT thing happen, fuel filter this morning didnt do much, so picking up fuel filter today and see if it works. this thread has been great

If you're in need of a fuel pump, PM me. I may be of service.

[adamisbomb]

yeah i got a new fuel filter and pump today, installed and.....NOTHING... i think the battery died since ive been trying to start it so much. tried to jump it...no better. im lost. right now it has a battery charger on it. im just pissed nothing has made it run yet. heres what happened. sorry to hijack thread but its similar enough it doesnt need its own.

monday i drive it to work, going about 70 on freeway it starts to kind of stumble or choke. im thinking to myself what the hell is it about to break down. i slow down and it does it a few more times but i get to work safely. i turn around to go home and go back roads and it seems fine. i got new spark plugs, gapped them and installed. on test drive it seemed better but it choked when i got to about 65.

tuesday im going real easy on it, about 65 on the freeway, it stumbled once and i got to work. it sat all day in 110 degree heat, started right up and was driving fine as i got on freeway. i got it to 65 again to stay with traffic, its going for 2 miles just fine....starts stumbling bad and gas pedal just pushes in, nothing happening. i almost get killed pulling it off the road and shut it down. wont start again. tow it home. We re did the plugs, checked to make sure it was getting fuel, but it wasnt shooting out very fast. got it running but it was really rough and died after a few seconds.

today - put new fuel filter in it. started it, it ran for about 3 minutes completely fine, i was happy. i walk to get a towel to wipe off my hands and it stumbles a lil and dies. wouldnt start again. got new fuel pump. 300 bucks later im typing this and charging battery hoping it will start and run. fingers crossed......


anyone have any advice, all is accepted!

and i would be even more lost without a friend named alex walking me through all of this

[liquidtiger720]

I paid $185 for my fuel pump.

[adamisbomb]

I paid $185 for my fuel pump.


i meant 300 for the filter and filter and plugs. i got a pretty good deal. too bad its still not working.

[saj3n]

What year/model is your car?

[saj3n]

not a bad price at all. I would've parted with mine for that same amount

[adamisbomb]

mines a 1990 525i, with the m20. im stuck and its not running.

[adamisbomb]

back to square one. not starting and now saying oil pressure sensor. god im pissed right now

[liquidtiger720]

eeechhh....

Good luck adam. I feel for you.

[t_marat]

Do you have an alarm system in your car? Maybe its something to do with it?

[BillionPa]

adam, do a DME reset by removing the ECU from the box for an hour (or the battery ground terminal, whatev!)

during that time run a tricke charge on the battery, and dont try to start the car again until it says the batt is at least 85% full charge

funny electrical gremlins can do wierd things... but also check the oil level, and if thats fine, unplug the sensor and plug it back in.

[BillionPa]

oh, and check if any fuses blew, and if they are ok, jump the fuel pump relay (do a search here) and see if the pump is actually running.

[adamisbomb]

ok im home from work, still didnt start. i do not know where the ecu is to remove it, gonna try some different stuff tonight. ill post what works or doesnt

[adamisbomb]

replaced the coil. nothing. think its the alternator. im still upset with it

[t_marat]

if it is alternator, then the car should start and run till the battery runs out. At least when my alternator failed, I was still able to drive with batteries only.

[adamisbomb]

thats what i thought, but it wont even start when its being jumped. my father in law ays hes sure the alt went out. the belt moves but it wont fire up

[theonlyrealperson]

I had to edit this post when I went back and re-read Adam's original posts... Oops... :p

If the starter cranks (including when jumped) and it still doesn't start, its not the alternator.

It sounded to me like the fuel pump or ignition system - both of which you've checked...

Sorry, I don't have any more ideas!

[adamisbomb]

my father in law just decided to take it to a shop. i should know next week whats up, hope its nothing horribly expensive. it now has brand new ignition coil, spark plugs, fuel pump, fuel filter on it. and yes it wont start still. oh well. i hope they find something simple like a relay or something. i hope the whole motor isnt gone.

[HumanRoughDraft]

Great thread and Bill's Adivce is great. The Female recepticle for the Fuel Pump Relay always has 12vdc to terminal 30, even with eng off, key out of ignition. Closing the circuit between terminal 30 and 87 sends 12vdc to the 15amp Fuse 23 and on to the fuel pump. I cannot get 12vdc to the fuse and so there is a break in the Green/Violet wire somewhere between Terminal 87 of the relay and Fuse 23. Any idea how I can turn this wiring nightmare into a sweet dream? By the way, the Fuel pump does work. I supplied 12vdc from a known 12vdc + source directly to the outbound side of fuse 23 and could hear the pump. So, wireing is good between Fuse and Pump but not fuse and relay.

[Visions]

89 535... Had the same problem... car stumbled to a stop like it was out of gas... Would crank and crank it but wouldn't ever start... Changed out the fuel pump from my other car but never helped... Jumped the fuel pump relay but nothing... put in a fuel pump relay from my other car and it didn't help... but I was so close... Turned out that both the Main and the Fuel Pump Relay blew

[bmw540]

wow this forum rocks... I have the exactly the same issue.

Try disconnecting and recharging the battery until charged then I bet the car will start.

You have the same problem as me where the alternator is not charging the battery enough.

Oh yes it will turn over and all the electrics work fine but it seams the computers onboard will not work under a certain volatge thus fule pump etc not working correctly.

I had the rough idle which became more regular and then no start.

Good Luck

[SC David]

Whoa, scared me. First thought was "again?!?"

[e34musician]

wow this forum rocks... I have the exactly the same issue.

Try disconnecting and recharging the battery until charged then I bet the car will start.

You have the same problem as me where the alternator is not charging the battery enough.

Oh yes it will turn over and all the electrics work fine but it seams the computers onboard will not work under a certain volatge thus fule pump etc not working correctly.

I had the rough idle which became more regular and then no start.

Good Luck

So your problem is alternator, not a fuel pump. I am confused trying to read and learn from this tread.

Adam, any update after having the ship check it?

[liquidtiger720]

Whoa, scared me. First thought was "again?!?"


haha....

*knocks on wood*