Tiptronic- pros and cons

[krazy00kanadian]

Recently my aunt came up and brought her 2001 330ix with a tiptronic tranny.

I hate autos. i drive my manual 535i, but really wanted to drive her car (for obvious reasons) but the tanny is so laggy.

I would tell it to shift around 4k and i would feel it shift around 5-6k depending how 'responsible' I felt like being.

also when in "manual" mode, when I let off the gas in, say 4th gear the RPMs would sink back down the way they do in a full auto tranny.


I found myself doing preemptive shifts, shifting at 3 to make it actually shift at 4-5 which was annoying; I don’t see why anyone would choose this. True it can be set to full auto, but if you want a manual cat why not buy one?

This seems to be a completely unreasonable "mix" between the two tranny systems.

Tell me what you think on this.

~farley

[BillionPa]

even with paddle shifting if its not SMG or DCG then its just an auto... with more buttons.

[VentoGT]

It's to make idiots think they know how to drive a manual. Seriously, tips are nothing but slushboxes with limited selectable gearing. Any time I have ever driven a car with a tiptronic, I end up leaving it in D and letting the auto tranny do the work for the reasons you describe.

[Bill R.]

tiptronic since the etk doesn't list any 2001 e46 330's with a tiptronic transmission. That said my steptronic in my 2000 e46 wagon shifts exactly when i tell it to and when i back off on the gas in a gear it coasts down using engine braking just like a manual trans. Its still not a manual but its not intended to be. I suspect there is something wrong with your Aunt's car that it is shifting like that. My steptronic won't let me do something really stupid like downshift to first gear at 70 mph but other than that it will engine brake just like a manual, it also won't let me go above redline before shifting, it will go ahead and shift in that case






Recently my aunt came up and brought her 2001 330ix with a tiptronic tranny.

I hate autos. i drive my manual 535i, but really wanted to drive her car (for obvious reasons) but the tanny is so laggy.

I would tell it to shift around 4k and i would feel it shift around 5-6k depending how 'responsible' I felt like being.

also when in "manual" mode, when I let off the gas in, say 4th gear the RPMs would sink back down the way they do in a full auto tranny.


I found myself doing preemptive shifts, shifting at 3 to make it actually shift at 4-5 which was annoying; I don’t see why anyone would choose this. True it can be set to full auto, but if you want a manual cat why not buy one?

This seems to be a completely unreasonable "mix" between the two tranny systems.

Tell me what you think on this.

~farley

[t_marat]

What's the difference between tiptronic and steptronic??

[Bill R.]

Audi and VW, originally it referred to the sequential shifting automatic that porsche came out with but the name has come to be associated with the steering wheel paddle shifter models, to me implying that tip means finger tips shifting. Steptronic is bmw's name for the sequential automatic shifting setup, Sportmatic is mercedes name for the similar thing, along with volvo geartronic, saab sentronic,mitsubishi sportronic,lexus eshift, jaguar mechatronic,hyundai shiftronic, etc etc.




What's the difference between tiptronic and steptronic??

[Qsilver7]

...and I think there is a difference between BMWs SMG & Steptronic. In simple terms (someone correct me if I'm wrong) but I believe SMG is actually a manual transmission that can behave like an automatic (it actually uses a clutch)...and Steptronic is an automatic transmission that can be shifted as if it were a manual.

[DABIMR]

...and I think there is a difference between BMWs SMG & Steptronic. In simple terms (someone correct me if I'm wrong) but I believe SMG is actually a manual transmission that can behave like an automatic (it actually uses a clutch)...and Steptronic is an automatic transmission that can be shifted as if it were a manual.
This site (http://www.m3smg.com/index.html)has some more info on the SMG tranny.. ;)

[Marshy]

I have a mod on mine called Switchlogic, which is manual control over the autobox. It hooks into the winter mode of the tranny computer and uses what would otherwise be the steering column adjustment lever for the control: forward for up a gear, backward for down.

There's a software change to go with it, and it works as well as can be expected, I think, given that it's still an auto. I didn't pay the extra for the "current gear" readout as the mod itself was expensive enough.

The cute trick (if you can find a road big enough to exploit it) is the fact that you can be barreling along in 4th or 5th, jump on the brakes, yank the lever back 2 or three times to ask for second gear, and it'll change down as and when road speed allows. Probably only any use on a track, and I haven't got to a track to really play with it.

I find I drive in the manual mode all the time now as it just gives me that extra level of control to always be in the gear I want, rather than the tranny's idea of the gear I want.

So: recommended, but hard to find outside the UK, and expensive.

[George M]

tiptronic since the etk doesn't list any 2001 e46 330's with a tiptronic transmission. That said my steptronic in my 2000 e46 wagon shifts exactly when i tell it to and when i back off on the gas in a gear it coasts down using engine braking just like a manual trans. Its still not a manual but its not intended to be. I suspect there is something wrong with your Aunt's car that it is shifting like that. My steptronic won't let me do something really stupid like downshift to first gear at 70 mph but other than that it will engine brake just like a manual, it also won't let me go above redline before shifting, it will go ahead and shift in that case

Hi Bill,
Haven't corresponded in a while. Thought you would be interested to hear...you likely know this...that BMW has changed their policy on "no more lifetime" fluid. I am sure it is a calculated business decision based upon all the failed Step's out there that have not changed their fluid...not to mention BMWNA can bank big money through changing auto trans fluid through their dealer network. Have a read of this link:
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=382812

Perhaps you have seen BMW's change in policy and if so have a link.
When we last spoke, you mentioned you were about to change the fluid in your E-46. Have you done so? If so, how did the fluid and filter look just under 50K miles? Have you located a cost effective Esso fluid source?
Hope all is well,
George
P.S. The Step in my E-46 is the best shifting and most versatile auto trans I have ever owned...love it.

[genphreak]

**#$%! it shits me** when you meet joe average with his newly leased mediocre company ride and he enthuses about it's 'great tiptronic gearbox'. Especially when you tell him its a pair of paddles controlling an electronic tranny full of fluid and he has such a load of marketing ******** up his arse that he won't believe you and thinks its ok that it has no clutch.

All I know is a tranny should have cogs. Not vanes and fluid, unless you need a car without a clutch cos you have one leg or something.

Autos should be banned, they use 10-20% more gas, drive like **** (unless they are REAL steptronic) spew fluid all over the road and allow lazy drivers to get lazier, send more SMS, eat burgers and spill coffee so they can weave around and crash into others for no reason. On top of that they brake all the time and generally driving like jack rabbits.

At least one-legged people can't drive an auto two footed.

I hate my auto. It will go one day.

[Paul in NZ]

Lookout Auto Drivers @#$% Rant Warning

sheesh NicK having a bad day?
I dont like autos myself and often have to remind my freindd that most "tiptronics"(porche should employ someonr to stop the ripoff) are only autos...
two options interest me....CVT and SMG, must have direct mechanical links between throttle and wheels and let me have total contro if i want it.
The other day we had a real bad jam,took me two hour to travel 15km,the guy in front had an auto and was going idle in first much much much slower than my idle in first I had to stop and start behing him after about half an hour my left leg was soooooo sore,luckily the line sped up a bit so i could idle along in first....the only time i have wanted an auto....

[George M]

**#$%! it shits me** when you meet joe average with his newly leased mediocre company ride and he enthuses about it's 'great tiptronic gearbox'. Especially when you tell him its a pair of paddles controlling an electronic tranny full of fluid and he has such a load of marketing ******** up his arse that he won't believe you and thinks its ok that it has no clutch.

All I know is a tranny should have cogs. Not vanes and fluid, unless you need a car without a clutch cos you have one leg or something.

Autos should be banned, they use 10-20% more gas, drive like **** (unless they are REAL steptronic) spew fluid all over the road and allow lazy drivers to get lazier, send more SMS, eat burgers and spill coffee so they can weave around and crash into others for no reason. On top of that they brake all the time and generally driving like jack rabbits.

At least one-legged people can't drive an auto two footed.

I hate my auto. It will go one day.
A pro driver driving a 4 speed slushbox and low horsepower M50 E-34 would make you look silly driving a 5-speed M30 E-34 on any race track. Your comments are ridiculous.
We live on the street and not at the track and most are stuck in rush hour traffic and why they prefer automatics. I have owned a lot of performance cars and many and perhaps most with a stick and the Step in an E-46 and most BMW's is superb and more practical and why preferred by most. You can stereotype automatic BMW owners as not true purists but this just isn't the case.
George

[gale]

I was quite pleased with the performance of my former ZF-4hp22. It was smooth as silk & always shifted up or down whenever I wanted it too. Yet I had a hankering for a stick, so yanked out the perfectly good slushbox & put the Getrag in it & never looked back. Personally, I wouldn't have another BMW automatic unless I had more power than I knew what to do with such as an M. BMW's, at least e34/e32 varieties (save the 750) seem so much more powerful with a stick, but as George said, can be a pain if doing alot of city commuting.

We can thank Starbucks & cell phones for the disproportionate number of autos that are on the road today. Ironically, the latest autos coming out of Ford/GM/Daimler-Chrysler, can actually be more fuel efficient than a stick, due to more tightly integrated engine-transmission computerized shift algorithms & CAFE requirements. I drove a Ford Explorer not long ago & it had the strangest shift behavior, almost autistic at times upshifting when least expected, but damn if it didn't get good mileage.

I gained 1-2 mpg on the highway after putting the stick in my 7. A bit less in town but that's because I visit redline frequently. I view redline as a goal as opposed to a limit.

Yes, for all intents & purposes, SMG is a manual transmission with a very conventional manual clutch design, behaving like an auto only because it has a computer/hydraulic actuated clutch & shift mechanism. Gotta love .3 seconds to consumate a shift in a manual transmission. I wouldn't hesitate owning an SMG if they prove to be reliable as they get more miles under their belt & it would be a blast to have paddle shifters on my 7 if the technology could be retro'd.

As for Steptronic, I can take it or leave it, as far as the ones I have driven in the Komen drives. Seems to be a gimmick more than anything & I have to agree that the lag time from requesting a shift to when the actual shift occurs can be annoying -- think I'd just spec a conventional auto box if I ever went that route again.

Oh well, don't take my ramblings serious . . .

[genphreak]

A pro driver driving a 4 speed slushbox and low horsepower M50 E-34 would make you look silly driving a 5-speed M30 E-34 on any race track. Your comments are ridiculous.
We live on the street and not at the track and most are stuck in rush hour traffic and why they prefer automatics. I have owned a lot of performance cars and many and perhaps most with a stick and the Step in an E-46 and most BMW's is superb and more practical and why preferred by most. You can stereotype automatic BMW owners as not true purists but this just isn't the case.
George I doubt many pro-drivers would be very interested in driving an auto M30 on a racetrack. A manual one would be a uninspiring enough compared to most cars one sees on the track these days. But, there is no way an auto M30 would beat a manual one in a race anywhere anytime, as well thought-out as the HP422EH might be in this application. The only way you could get close would be to drive two footed through each corner, tear the heart out of the tranny and burn gallons more fuel ***trying***

However, the fact is that people don't have the right to burn more fuel just so they can avoid waving their hand around or pressing a pedal every now and then. If they are too lazy to do this, they really shouldn't be driving in the first place; they will probably hit something due to a generally disinterested approach to driving.

Besides, any half decent manual is not hard to operate in traffic- even eating a burger as most seem compelled to do. Autos just train bad drivers to be worse and good drivers to be sloppy.

The sad fact is one uses a clutch to control torque, gear down into corners and control power delivery/drive smoothly within the surrounding conditions. An auto can't do any of these things and in fact will never manage not to change gear at the wrong time; like changing up when a light turns red or a corner is coming.

It is plain stupid driving such an inappropriate transmission out of choice. They really should be limited to industrial vehicles where they are useful and more reliable.

If one day we have autos that really use less fuel than a manual it will only be because all the development dollars are being sunk into them as they are one thing that invariably always increases the cost of a new car. If they had gone into manuals we would probably worked out a way to actually save fuel rather than use the same amount as a old-technology cogbox.

:) Nick

[genphreak]

Interesting points Don. I can only imagine what my baby would be like with a cogbox. But I do agree, the HP22EH is very refined on an M30 (after all that time I guess it should be). However new trannies autos are far better than this nowadays.

However they can't see corners, red lights or slowing traffic coming. When the day coems that we do go to all the trouble to make them do this, the speed limits will be automatically enforced at 30kph... :) Nick

[genphreak]

sheesh NicK having a bad day?
I dont like autos myself and often have to remind my freindd that most "tiptronics"(porche should employ someonr to stop the ripoff) are only autos...
two options interest me....CVT and SMG, must have direct mechanical links between throttle and wheels and let me have total contro if i want it.
The other day we had a real bad jam,took me two hour to travel 15km,the guy in front had an auto and was going idle in first much much much slower than my idle in first I had to stop and start behing him after about half an hour my left leg was soooooo sore,luckily the line sped up a bit so i could idle along in first....the only time i have wanted an auto....Paul-o, haven't you noticed?

It's winter. Snow is coming!!

Time to shape up the leg muscles anyway!

Yea ok, I know I came across harsh-like to all the regular traffic sloggers. But truly, live behind an auto stick for a while and you'd know why! (Before this I had a company car- and because there was a one of those morons in the office who never bothered to learn how to drive properly (her license said auto only) I was 'required' to buy an auto by company policy, just in case she had to take it to the post office. Man the dealer's service dept must have got the shits with me. The Berlina I bought had a restriction in the gearbox that prevented it from kicking down too fast (ie when you put your foot down). I think this allowed them to improve the economy figures that year... they ended up swapping the tranny as there was more than the odd occasion I almost got wiped by oncoming traffic as I pulled out top pass someone expecting a kickdown to actually happen. They couldn't see this was a dangerous lmitation. I guess they never drove it on the freeway that went straight past their door as they always found it was 'performed to specification'. Well, that is until I tore the service manager away from his desk adn showed him how that tranny literally just sat there and laughed at your flattened foot- whilst you watched impending doom comin' right at ya. 3 years driving autos, now another 3 years driving this one. Sure the HP22 is nothing like that- in fact it is a very good auto, but it is *still* an auto. 6 years in automotive's equivalent of solitary confinement; I tell ya it's enough to kill a man...

btw; is the single plate e28 clutch much heavier than the twin plate e34 version? I know the twin plate is a major PITA, but if it feels better it might be worth additional time fitting it, and even the premature 'cackles' it tends to exhibit when wearing out or when it 'otherwise' comes up for replacement. :) Nick

[George M]

Interesting points Don. I can only imagine what my baby would be like with a cogbox. But I do agree, the HP22EH is very refined on an M30 (after all that time I guess it should be). However new trannies autos are far better than this nowadays.

However they can't see corners, red lights or slowing traffic coming. When the day coems that we do go to all the trouble to make them do this, the speed limits will be automatically enforced at 30kph... :) Nick
I see you are the Archie Bunker of E-34 owners on the board here. You say the HP22EH is very refined with the M30...which I too have owned and agree it is but you pan Step or Tiptronic owners and their autoboxes make a HP22EH look like a powerglide by comparison. As to seeing corners...I have no trouble downshifting my Step in anticipation of corners in manual mode...do it all the time....trans works great for braking.
Lastly...your contentiousness for slushboxes and the silly fact you own one really sums up your grasp. You chose to own a slushbox and yet you hate it...pretty much says it. If you know what you are doing, you would convert to 5 speed like Don did....but probably beyond your capability as it is for most.
George
P.S. Hi Don. Honestly the shift lag does not bother me at all on my E-46...my Step shifts up and down with reasonable response time. I frankly love the flexibility of it....D for leisurely driving through traffic...S if feeling a bit more spirited with quicker downshifts and holding on to rev's longer and M which works beautifully for staying in the gear I want be it up or down shifting.
Honestly, it does exactly as it should...couldn't ask for much more. As to SMG...as usual we agree. Believe it hasn't quite arrived yet but is close. It is very difficult to get a computer enabled shift mechanism to shift a manual gearbox with the same finesse as that of a driver. The beauty and some would maintain scourge of a slushbox is the torque converter replete with modest inefficiency somewhat mitigated today with lock up in certain gears...adds a measure of forgiveness to hard clutch engagement that occurs in every slushbox just like a manual gearbox....only with computer modulated clutch pack pressures and timing coordinated with throttle by wire reduction in throttle opening coordinated with engine ignition timing retard creating seamless shifts. As you correctly stated with the synergy between the electronics...including DMS between engine management and tranny computer developed together...they are in very close harmony. As stated, I couldn't be more pleased with my Step....don't really want an SMG for its jerkiness around town and don't feel like shifting all the time...only some of the time. If you consider the lineage of transmission design...first came manual with manual clutch. Then came auto with torque converter and now SMG is coming on due to more sophisticated electronics and servos. If you think about this evolution, SMG and not a conventional automatic would be the natural descendant of a manual gearbox because SMG is more derivative of a manual gearbox. It isn't due to lack of trying...SMG just historically hasn't worked...it is the natural successor but with a major design hurdle and that is...still a bit too technically daunting to get a robot to shift a manual gearbox as smoothly as a human being...the future maybe different. So the tradeoff is smoothness versus efficiency. The torque converter is the buffer and like the internal combustion engine, a hard act to follow if not rowing gears yourself.

[genphreak]

:D Yep. If I had enough cash I would. I bought my car cheap and yes to some extent it was a mistake buying an auto. The thing is there are very very few manuals. (In fact I've only ever seen 2 manual e34s that weren't M-cars). The closest I got was buying a wrecked 535im at auction, but it went too high...

The reason I guess is that Australia is right up there with the US on the laziness scale- recently the newspapers claimed we are as fat as Americans and not surprsingly we buy as high a proportion of McDonalds as well as auto matic cars.

Having said that I'd rather drive an auto 5er than a manual (most other things). Sorry if this sounds tough, but I've driven steptronics, selespeeds and even that fandangled tranny fitted to the A8- you can't control downshift like you can with a clutch and all the while feel like there's fluid in the way.

In the A8 (like it may be (to some extent) in the e46) it felt very nice, but the control one can exercise was far more remote than the plain old-fashioned clutch pedal offers.