Big Six Engine upgrades

[aston_jag_tech]

Hello.

Owner of 1989 535i, I like it alot. I am a tech for Aston Jag and want to know more about this era in BMW cars. I would like to modify the big six with either 2 turbos or a super charger. Also tweek the suspension, upgrade trans, and LS Diff. Pretty much everything possible to give my 5 series its ultimate unquie look and hand craftsmanship.

Well I am new to the forum and am willing to help anyone.

I am looking for great resources for used parts, replacement parts, tech knowledge, and support.

thanks alot,

Scott

[Alexlind123]

I think you came to the right place! Good luck :)

[angrypancake]

supercharger will be more difficult. a twin turbo setup has been done, google "Alpina b-10 Bi-Turbo" it was a from the factory m30 engine tweaked with two garrett t-25 turbos for minimal lag. for big HP gains and such, check out turbocharging dynamics' kit, it's good for about 400+ hp.

resources: www.bmwe34.net
parts: BMA Autoparts (google for contact info, but CALL them)
tech knowledge: you've come to the right place
support: hell yeah we support you, just post pictures, and make sure to fill out your info.

[SnakeyesTx]

Give them time and their universal should be a good fit.

www.ststurbo.com

I'm actually pro-supercharger, but this new setup and concept seems pretty awesome in terms of heat, lag and plumbing issues.

[genphreak]

Give them time and their universal should be a good fit.

www.ststurbo.com (http://www.ststurbo.com)

I'm actually pro-supercharger, but this new setup and concept seems pretty awesome in terms of heat, lag and plumbing issues.NOt many people do it on the e34. There is some awesome info and good factory parts/engineering around from the old e23 745i (same motor but with additional oil plumbing on the main bearings that can be added to a standard M30 when the short block is in the shop). Search this forum for good links- I've posted a few in the past. It makes the job much easier to be able to consider how the factory made such old turbos last and be so reliable.

Just make sure you don't stick it up high in the engine bay or near any plastic or heat-affectable componentry as it can look like this. ie http://i.b5z.net/i/u/1473169/i/misc/hot_turbo2_ezr.jpg

The M30 is slanted over so the factory fitted the turbos down the bottom where there was plenty of airflow and very little non-metal parts to take the grilling. Schnitzer and I guess Alpina made twin turbo manifolds for them as these were developed by Schnitzer for the (early) M88-powered 3.0 CSL racing cars back in the late 70s. The M88 if you don't know is an M30 block with a twin cam top-end and go fast gear. It is the precursor (in many cases mechanically identical) to the engine that powers the e28 and e34 M5s; the S38 which came in 4 or so variants (ie they get different cams, compression, stroke and bore so they can have capacities that are anywhere from 3200 to 3800cc). The B10 Bi-Turbo Alpina had an excellent setup (LHD only as the RHD cannot fit the same manifold due to the steering box location). It delivered over 380BHP in showroom tune.

I don't know for sure but the 850BHP variants used in the racing CSLs are (I think) Kugelfischer injected, blue-printed versions of these with awesome electronics (at the time) which is easy to do now given the advances and availability of combustion monitoring, sensors, engine controllers and safety devices.

It'd be really good to get more info on the mechanical setups used in those old CSLs...

Check out Turbo Charging Dynamics (http://www.turbochargingdynamics.com/tcd_turbobmw_links_001.htm) of course... I expect that they know their Bimmers.

[Toomas]

I would rather buy B10 Bi-Turbo, with chip you can get ~500 reliable hp out of her.

[angrypancake]

speaking of crazy power, where has Beetos been, with his 700+hp monstrosity?

[aston_jag_tech]

Thanks guys.

I saw the Alpina B10 Bi Turbo, I was totally oblivious to that. Thanks for the link. I got a bunch of figures off of that site, basic figures like the C/R, Ign. Timing, max boost pressures, setup of the turbos.
I will check out the other links, ststurbo and turbo charging dynamics.

I for sure know that the entire exhuast will be different, the lubrication system will have to be constantly pressurized, cooling system upgrade, electric fan upgrade, modification to crank journals for piston oil squirters, the Bosch motronic 1.2 DME, im guessing little changes to engine wiring harness, the modern air flow meter(heated wire), Different cam, the correct C/R and ign timing, fuel delievery(I wonder if there is a higher output fuel pump), Injectors(I read somewhere someone had mods with ford fuel injs., anyone hear that?)..I know theres more definetly.

But for now Im staying basic, first off starting with the mechanics of the compressor. I know that it is going to be higher pressure, higher temp(combustion chamber) higher temp under hood, more stress on components etc.

So I am startng with a block. Genfreak, I am going to research the e23 745i blocks. You mentioned additional lube plumbing to the M30 which is great news to hear. Thank you.

Ill look into kits also for reference and practicality thanks angrypancake

Snakeyestx thanks for the link.

Will keep in touch If Im not too busy with work. We are very busy and its been 3 weeks since I have continued the project. And plus ASE tests are here, busy busy.:D

Take care fellas

Scott

[bfd]

Why modify the E34 535i to such extreme? Do you realize your dealing with a car that weighs in excess of 3500 lb?

If you really want a *fast* BMW, why not find yourself a nice E30 3 Series and go for it? It will be faster, handle better, and guess what, get better mileage. Guess what Bruno did?

I have a 1990 535i, 5spd, 107K miles. Its a great car. But I would never consider such extreme modifications. For what?

Then again, if you really must, why not check out what Red Five did:

http://www.redfivemotorsport.com/home.htm

Notice he's on a "hiatus" trying to pay off his *racing debt*.....

[McWatters]

Some people just love the look man, im in love with my car, if i had the money i would do the exact same thing. even if it wasnt as fast as a 3 all done up.

i just love the lines

cheers

J.McWatters

[BillionPa]

why do it you ask? because you can! because its fun! because the end result will *hopefully* be totally kickass!

when i started my 6+ month project redoing the suspension and brakes, and fixing some engine quirks, a LOT of people questioned it, so did I, but now that its almost done, and I can drive it again, it was SO worth it, and I would do it again without hesitation.

[aston_jag_tech]

Why not a 3 series. The 3 series I just dont liek that much, small car. I need room and since I am going to have this car forevvvver why not get a midsize. I think its an American triat, go BIG. I also do like the lines of my car, my driver seat has never giving me sitting troubles as far as the back upper and lower back which is soo important to me(my back is tweeked a lil). Also I have a fast old muscle car in the garage. I do like the Camaro but I wanted to tune something not as valuable as that were parts are available.

Thanks for the link bfd and your input.
McWatters I know what you mean exactly!

Billion pa knows why Im modifying the car, because I can, its fun and end results will teach me what certain modifications do to cars which helps in working on cars.
Billion, what kind of suspension worl did you carry out? Springs, shocks, thrust arms, camber kits ?
I has thinking about a rack and pinion swap but thats alot of advanced mod that inquires tools I dont have like a torch and welder plus skills. But I was thinking aluminum thrust arms, springs, shocks, and camber kits. I definetly have to get rid of that slack in the steering for sure.

Thanks for all your input fellas,

Scott

[bfd]

I guess if you really want 700-800+ horses out of an E34, why use a 535i? If you're going to go through all this trouble, why not sell the car and find yourself a nice E34 540i.

Dinan, who has way more money than 99.9999% of us here, raced an E34 540i, albeit with mix results. I recall his problem is the weight and size against the competition.

Still, here's another article to read:

http://web.archive.org/web/20010612020642/www.dinanbmw.com/html/pdf/fast_fives.pdf

[Mr Project]

Rob Levinson at UUC has a twin-turbo setup for an M30 E34 right now, with rebuilt turbos and everything. If you're serious about a twin-turbo setup, give him a call.

Myself, if I was going to do a turbo, I'd go something more like the TCD route, but it's your car. Pay heed to those who have gone before, though...and note how much $$ that path swallows up.

[mholbrook]

If you want 500+ horsepower, why not dump the BMW engine and put in a Corvette engine and trans. Or, maybe a Hemi.

[BillionPa]

I did Bilstein HD/Eibach with new mounts/springs/bolts, running a 27mm Whiteline front swaybar and 20mm mtech rear. Thrust arms were replaced last year with the "new" Meyle HD arms, they are working fine so far, but look understandably rusty given the environment here. Im running stock aluminum lower arms currently that are in good condition. My steering is pretty bad though, will fix that..... later.

I will wait till i can do the entire rear end before messing with camber adjustment, and do a Quaife rear diff and urethane filled subframe mounts at the same time. till then, I will have more tire wear.

[genphreak]

Rob Levinson at UUC has a twin-turbo setup for an M30 E34 right now, with rebuilt turbos and everything. If you're serious about a twin-turbo setup, give him a call.

Myself, if I was going to do a turbo, I'd go something more like the TCD route, but it's your car. Pay heed to those who have gone before, though...and note how much $$ that path swallows up. If only ROb would put the details of this online for us all to ponder... once the whole world checks things out, it's amazing what turns up and becomes possible for the rest of us.

Can someone explain this part to me?

"I do like the Camaro but I wanted to tune something not as valuable as that were parts are available"

A second hand Bimmer might be cheap, but a project like htis is no less cheap- it will be more... nad the tuning will be much tougher...

[aston_jag_tech]

If only ROb would put the details of this online for us all to ponder... once the whole world checks things out, it's amazing what turns up and becomes possible for the rest of us.

Can someone explain this part to me?

"I do like the Camaro but I wanted to tune something not as valuable as that were parts are available"

A second hand Bimmer might be cheap, but a project like htis is no less cheap- it will be more... nad the tuning will be much tougher...


The 67 Camaro needs eveything upgraded, EVERYTHING. It new brakes, disc to be specific, and power assist also, and power steering, and new springs, new everything suspension related to drive it daily because its over 30 years old. Its old school technology were they are fast but you know, cant steer or brake.
Ive actually seen a 69 done completely ground up at a local corvette shop. The owner of the shop is really smart, all he works on is corvettes plus upgrades(s/c, etc). Over 100k invested, It had supreme paint, tungsten silver with a, yes, corvette engine set back pretty close to the center of the front spindles, corvette powertrain to be precise with Brembo brake upgrades, power steering, a super charger, elec fans, everything! Also, custon leather suede interior, all digital gauges. Man I really should have taken pics. The owner was a old gent. Baby boomer I persume. The car was all out done, way too expensive, very scared to drive it.

I get nervous driving a DB9 let alone a Vanquish S at work sometimes just because of the shear price.

I dont think I ever mentioned cheap also.It is going to be expensive and then some, cost increase in projects are inevitable.

So thats what I mean by my quote "I do like the Camaro but I wanted to tune something not as valuable as that were parts are available" (were=where)

Plus I could by a bigger engine but I like mech tech and autos in general. I have alwasy wanted to build an engine. Well, I did actually at school, just a baby 350 chevy and we did great. To know what parts are inside, what they look like, fell like, what they are doing makes me respect the car more. My labor into what I love to do.

Thanks for all the comments people, It is really great to actually have different thoughts.

-Scott

[aston_jag_tech]

I did Bilstein HD/Eibach with new mounts/springs/bolts, running a 27mm Whiteline front swaybar and 20mm mtech rear. Thrust arms were replaced last year with the "new" Meyle HD arms, they are working fine so far, but look understandably rusty given the environment here. Im running stock aluminum lower arms currently that are in good condition. My steering is pretty bad though, will fix that..... later.

I will wait till i can do the entire rear end before messing with camber adjustment, and do a Quaife rear diff and urethane filled subframe mounts at the same time. till then, I will have more tire wear.

That sounds great, handles like very well for the upgrades? New Meyle HD arms? Im not too familar with the new ones. Yes the steering, need a reck and pinion. I was researching a little for a swap from a 3 series to 5 series rack, I dont know, maybe.

Yes I bet youll have some bad tire wear. lol. Thanks for your brief upgrade job.

-Scott

[aston_jag_tech]

LOL, I dont know this engine seems very reliable, I have 251k on the original engine parts. Pushrods? Oh man, I heard a story, myth, whatever, that back in the 60's 70's, sometime, that GM put in an order of pushrods that filled the warehouse to to lights with pushrods. That is why GM still has pushrods. I dont know about that but it might be true. I think it really has to do with GM being in debt. Now I guess Nissan Renault may become an alliance with them, oops. That sounds sick(disgusting)

-Scott

[aston_jag_tech]

Rob Levinson? Who exactly is he? I would liek to talk to him about the project. So, yes I would give him a call for sure. Thanks Mr Project.

My father had a 63 Corvair with the turbo engine, it vented exhaust fumes in the passenger compartment, lol.
Im sure your Corvairs are far far better though. :)

-Scott

[bfd]

Who is Rob Levinson? He one of the founders of UUC (Underground Upgrade Club) Motorwerks:

http://www.uucmotorwerks.com

Rob is well known in BMWCCA and friends with BMW luminaries like BMW Master Tech Brett Anderson of Koalamotorsports:

http://www.koalamotorsports.com

Rob has own several interesting "toys" including the following:

E34 M5 Touring:
http://www.robertlevinson.com/M5_Touring/

E38 750i with a Six Speed Manual tranny:
http://www.robertlevinson.com/seven/

He also owned a super Dinan E28 M5 Turbo:
http://www.robertlevinson.com/M5_Turbo/

and owned a Calloway E28 535i Turbo:
http://www.robertlevinson.com/535i_Turbo/

[aston_jag_tech]

Who is Rob Levinson? He one of the founders of UUC (Underground Upgrade Club) Motorwerks:

http://www.uucmotorwerks.com

Rob is well known in BMWCCA and friends with BMW luminaries like BMW Master Tech Brett Anderson of Koalamotorsports:

http://www.koalamotorsports.com

Rob has own several interesting "toys" including the following:

E34 M5 Touring:
http://www.robertlevinson.com/M5_Touring/

E38 750i with a Six Speed Manual tranny:
http://www.robertlevinson.com/seven/

He also owned a super Dinan E28 M5 Turbo:
http://www.robertlevinson.com/M5_Turbo/

and owned a Calloway E28 535i Turbo:
http://www.robertlevinson.com/535i_Turbo/

Thanks for the links. Very helpful. I am def going to get an earlier engine block, 3.5 with the piston oil nozzles. Thats perfect. And Ill recheck the specs of the engine of course, thank you!

[HDhandyman]

Meyle control arms?--I can give you two cents on that--"don't do it!"--use OEM Lemforder, this has been tossed around here, time and time again.

Also, some big resources here include but are not limited to (people):

Lowell---genius mechanic @ Koala Motors --working with the master.
Bill R.---the top dog daddy mechanic for practicallity and all inclusive knowledge, period.
Winfred---Second top dog mechanic and all inclusive knowledge
Shogun---electronic genius with sourcing for years, not days, speaks German, loves and works on tons of 7 series, BMW history, blah blah blah, etc.
Jon K.---budding mechanical genius with more mods than you can shake a stick at, including the first mega squirt, turbo, etc. --Runs a site for hot modded euros which is sponsored by UUC.

There are tons of others, but this is a start.

[angrypancake]

blowneuroz.com is sponsored by uuc now? i know that VF-Engineering (big time superchargers) sponsors them.


Javier- electrical wizard
Angrypancake- douchewagon, thread crasher. oh wait.....

[HDhandyman]

my bad, you're right, it is VF--sorry.

uhh humm:

Douchewagon Extrodinaire!

:p

[aston_jag_tech]

I think I have a starting point.

Another same year engine M30, Install oil squirters on crank journals. And just rebuild the engine, Lower compression slightly somehow. TCD Manifold, Single turbo setup(two would roc) Megasquirt Control for ign/spark/etc. Intercooled, New stronger head studs, Have a shop rework the head(balance springs, guides, valves, cam, well pretty much replace anything that I see worn. Lighten up the valve train if I can. I think this is a decent start. yes yes.

This engine will not be done for a while though, Not to give any of you fellas any sign of completion yet. I really want to Engineer a great/lasting t/c setup.
So nice and slow. Hmmmmmmm.

Thanks again for all the input!!:D

-Scott

[BillionPa]

VAC motorsports will build a head with race spec valves and guides etc.

[Ausmpower]

You could search out an Ex-german police Turbo M30 (T04, external waste gate etc) all BMW factory fitment and good for 350 hp stock.

Alternately you can tee off the oil pressure switch in the rear of the head to feed oil to your turbo and then go custom exh manifolds. $$$$ are the limiting factor.

[Jon K]

I am anti-supercharger. Why? I had one - and while it was nice and faster than a stock 525i, it didn't fulfill my appetite yet cost soooo much. I was able to pull away from chipped E34 540s at a good rate, but still...


Turbo is the way. Forget two small dinky T25s - they require a lot of maintainence. The shafts break, the seals leak, etc etc etc., they're the product turbo off of Mitsubishi Eclipse... cmon. Step up to a single larger turbo and have your head explode!

[Jon K]

If you want 500+ horsepower, why not dump the BMW engine and put in a Corvette engine and trans. Or, maybe a Hemi.


What a waste of a bmw motor - My M50 is going to devour LS1s. <3

[Martin in Bellevue]

I am anti-supercharger. Why? I had one - and while it was nice and faster than a stock 525i, it didn't fulfill my appetite yet cost soooo much. I was able to pull away from chipped E34 540s at a good rate, but still...

Did you ever take yer supacharger setup to a dyno? Tune for fat afr's? Or get some time slips? Did those chipped 540's know you were trying to race them on the street? The supacharger cost soo much, but you trashed it and went straight to a turbo sized for a cummins diesel with twice the displacement of your m50?

Let's keep the abrasive opinions & unsupported horsepower claims at bay. Please.