stumped on 50-60mph shimmy

[jplacson]

Ok, I've changed my bushings, stab links, front shocks, and had my wheels aligned already.

Now the 50-60mph shimmy is back. Although above or below this speed, no vibrations at all.

What else could be wrong? A few E34 owners here in the Phil say that this is really the problem with the E34.

Could the Thrust arm itself be the problem, and not just the bushing? Could the lower control arms also cause this?

[mholbrook]

Upper control arms is the usual culpret. Did you just change the bushings or the whole arms? I always do the arms with new 750 bushings already installed since it is cheaper (to me) and replaces the ball joint as well. Did you tighten the fastener under load? If not, you may have already ripped the new bushing.

Mike Holbrook

[MO525]

After new thrust arms, end links, struts, My d**ned shimmy has returned, too.
SO.....I got "up close and personal" with my steering linkage and found my driver's side inner tie-rod end has some play in it.

I will address these, next:
replacing the driver's side inner/outer/adjuster sleeve as a new unit.
front end alignment next.
finally, new tires

MAN, I hope that fixes it.

That shimmy is getting just plain tiresome.

[George M]

jplacson...this thread is a perfect showcase as to why piece mealing a front suspension is problematic. Shimmy as mentioned is a function of really everything. Yes the thrust arms are the biggest contributor but everything has to be in relatively good condition to mitigate vibration. Sounds as though you replaced your thrust arm bushings but not the thrust arms themselves. Now you have to go back in and replace the thrust arms if you want to quiet the vibration. Then there is the lower arms and the tie rods etc etc. Everybody wants a silver bullet to conserve cost. At the end of the day you end up spending more by increasing the labor cost of going in each time and chipping away...reality is everything has to be in pretty good shape for the suspension to work properly. There isn't any magic to getting rid of shimmy.
Good Luck,
George

[TheGeak]

I bet if you put one of those tornado air things in you'd be fine!

*seriously though*

I agree with George, if you're going to try to fix something like this, you're better off doing everything. Some people get lucky, others don't. I personally would hold off until i could afford to do it all, and just make a weekend out of it.

[Tiger]

Thrust arm ball joints is probably shot.. either that or your lower arm bushing too.

[jplacson]

Thanks guys... I only replaced the bushings... will check if it was the ball bearings of the arm as well... anyhow, the bushings are under warranty... if a defective balljoint caused premature wear, then I can have them replace the arms, and have them give me new bushings for free.

I had my tie-rods and stabilizer links changes as well. Lower & upper arms weren't touched since BMW Insp. II didn't recommend it.

Could the rear subframe mounts contribute to the shimmy as well? I also have a 'clunk' in my rear when doing moderate cornering, could this be the subframe mounts? Or rear shocks?

George, I agree with you on that... but I was really stumped since I did everything that BMW Insp 2 turned up, the guys at this other BMW specialty shop didn't say anything about the thrust arms either. So I figured they had a better idea of things than I do (since I'm not much of a mechanic)

[Paul in NZ]

not at 90 km/hr (or 55 mph) on the highway.if you tekk them you have the shimmy they should be able to tel you how to fix it if they are truly experienced bmw techs

[Shauhin]

at the range of 40-50mph I frequently get a very nasty vibration through my steering wheel and then it spreads to the whole car shaking. it only occurs when i am driving straight get in that speed range. I can only use the word VIOLENT to describe how bad it shakes up my car. I have to jerk the steering wheel back and forth to get rid of it. when moving

I already had the shocks changed, wheels balanced and aligned, thrust arm bushings replaced with 740il bushings, and tie rods tightened.

Anyone have any suggestions or advise please? it does not pose me as dangerous to drive it; its just that if im on a city street and get a 45mph shake, i have to bounce aroudn on the wheel just to get rid of it. on freeway high speeds the car feels solid as ever.


Thanks in advance,

Shauhin

[rickm]

When you replace the arms, don't get the cheap ones! There are a couple of brands available...one is solid, the other you'll end up replacing much sooner. (someone chime in with names here...lemforder is good/bad?)

[MO525]

When you replace the arms, don't get the cheap ones! There are a couple of brands available...one is solid, the other you'll end up replacing much sooner. (someone chime in with names here...lemforder is good/bad?)

That is THE brand to use when you replace the Thrust Arms.

[MO525]

jplacson...this thread is a perfect showcase as to why piece mealing a front suspension is problematic. Shimmy as mentioned is a function of really everything. Yes the thrust arms are the biggest contributor but everything has to be in relatively good condition to mitigate vibration. Sounds as though you replaced your thrust arm bushings but not the thrust arms themselves. Now you have to go back in and replace the thrust arms if you want to quiet the vibration. Then there is the lower arms and the tie rods etc etc. Everybody wants a silver bullet to conserve cost. At the end of the day you end up spending more by increasing the labor cost of going in each time and chipping away...reality is everything has to be in pretty good shape for the suspension to work properly. There isn't any magic to getting rid of shimmy.
Good Luck,
George

I understand completely, George.
I'm just as "guilty" as the fella who started this thread.
Problem being, I cannot cough up $700+ in parts to replace everything and my unpredictable work schedule doesn't allow a two-day stretch to be planned for such things....heck, that's barring ANY complications, too.
Thank goodness I do all my own repairs or that $700 would be tripled, I'm sure-even at an indy shop.

I do my repairs as funds and time are available.

My shimmy is just barely noticable and merely an annoyance but I want to correct it and I will.....as time and funds allow.
The inner-most driver side tie rod end has a WEE bit of play in it and that appears to be the only questionable one of the SIX on that steering linkage! :(

This constant "tinkering" with my E34 has given me a REAL good understanding of the undercarriage and inner-workings of it.
Truth be told? I do enjoy it!
German engineering is truly impressive.....a bit "odd" sometimes but impressive, nonetheless. :)

Other than that little shimmy, I've covered most of the "It's GOING to happen to your E34" items. :)
We LOVE the car, folks.
If you're in the market for an E34, DO IT.
With places like BMA around and the Bentley manual, how can you go wrong?
Unless the car is total crap to begin with (HAVE IT CHECKED BEFORE YOU BUY IT!!!), you CAN have a SWEET Bimmer for less than the cost of some new Korean econo-box or a used Chebby. :)

[jplacson]

Well, I usually get BMW OEM... aren't those the lemforder? it's kinda tough here since they usually only sell OEM.

But if I do have to have my lower control arms replaced, I was thinking of changing them with the aluminum E34 M5 arms... are these compatible with any E34?

[jplacson]

All right! Thanks Paul... I will specify that next time. Will have to bring it in for the rear suspension anyway since I noticed a 'clunk' during cornering.

[George M]

well said Mo525...most of us are on a budget for repairing these cars (I am) and why this board is so indispensible to managing costs through sharing DIY info. And yes the bond we have with these cars that others don't is many of us are gearheads and by doing all the repairs, one really does develop an appreciation for the engineering albeit sometimes quirky as you say. And jplacson, I suggest you save your money are install steel lower arms on your car versus aluminum. You won't feel the difference in unsprung mass on the street.
George

[bofh]

I suggest you save your money are install steel lower arms on your car versus aluminum. You won't feel the difference in unsprung mass on the street.
George

Does this mean that you can use the Aluminum arms in a car that didn't come with them?

Is the only difference with the aluminum arms, less weight?

I just replaced my on Friday, and was thinking about go to aluminum, but thought better of it, and got OEM replacements. Now, I'm just curious.

[George M]

Yup can use aluminum in cars whether they came with them on not. Most don't...I don't for example. Pretty much the only difference is weight...and not proportionate to the density diff between aluminum and steel as aluminum has a lower yield strength so has to be actually larger than the steel arm (more volume/section modulus) to compensate which erodes some of the weight savings.
Think you made the right choice with steel :-)...believe even the most discerning could never tell the difference on the street or track.
HTH,
George

[jplacson]

Oh ok... so better to stick with the standard steel arms. Thanks again! :)

[TimGinCentralNJ]

Hi Shauhin-

I've had some experience with a shimmy on various E28's, and my last E34, but the only time I ever experienced what you've described occurred on my last E28 as the result of my left front brake caliper beginning to seize on me. It began after the first panic-stop I'd ever done in the car, and although you couldn't even tell the caliper was grabbing (meaning, there was no pull to the right, the car handled perfectly), it was just enough to create bone-jarring cavitations around 40-50. Sometimes I could jerk the wheel enough to free it, but not always.

Not saying you should disregard what the other have said her, only want to add this as a possibility.

Hope this helps,
Tim G.
'91 535iM


at the range of 40-50mph I frequently get a very nasty vibration through my steering wheel and then it spreads to the whole car shaking. it only occurs when i am driving straight get in that speed range. I can only use the word VIOLENT to describe how bad it shakes up my car. I have to jerk the steering wheel back and forth to get rid of it. when moving

I already had the shocks changed, wheels balanced and aligned, thrust arm bushings replaced with 740il bushings, and tie rods tightened.

Anyone have any suggestions or advise please? it does not pose me as dangerous to drive it; its just that if im on a city street and get a 45mph shake, i have to bounce aroudn on the wheel just to get rid of it. on freeway high speeds the car feels solid as ever.


Thanks in advance,

Shauhin

[jplacson]

so a shimmy could also be caused by the brakes? (if the suspension turns out to be ok)

[TimGinCentralNJ]

...adding the slightest resistance to just one of your front wheels is enough to alter your suspension geometry, 'bringing to light' even the slightest amount of play in the form of a shimmy. I'd never have believed it either had I not been through it myself

All I'm saying is, if you've checked/repl'd everything else, do yourself a favor and check out your calipers to ensure they're releasing. Look for unevenly worn or unevenly "hot" rotors up front, and just make sure both front wheels spin freely. It's a cheap test, and one often overlooked IMHO.

Tim G.


so a shimmy could also be caused by the brakes? (if the suspension turns out to be ok)

[MBXB]

JP,

Bad brake rotors can cause shimmy.
I had a new but not balanced rotor drive me and my tech nuts.
He didn't believe me at first. Got a free replacement.

Ramon


so a shimmy could also be caused by the brakes? (if the suspension turns out to be ok)

[jplacson]

Thanks! I also want to mention that I have a rear "clunk" when cornering. I'm trying to see if my shimmy might be tied into this as well... what could cause the clunk? Rear shocks? Or the subframe bushings/mounts? This only happens while cornering, not accelerating.

[sonar5]

Hi Folks,

I read through this thread with interest.

You may be looking past one thing that was the problem with mine. I recently had my front brake pads replaced and rotors, (rears were fine), and still had the 55mph deceleration shake.

Was going to get it balanced, and Guess what it was. Nothing to do with the front end.

It was the CENTER BEARING, which attaches to the driveshaft..... Torn to shreds. My ace neighbor mechanic sent me the pics of it, and it was trashed.

$34.50 at pelican parts. He let's me get the parts and he fixes the car for me at his shop in San Diego.

Here is the link for the part:
http://www.pelicanparts.com/bmw/catalog/shopcart/BE34/POR_BE34_tranny_pg3.htm

Here is a procedure I gave to him, even though mine is an automatic, the guy at this site did it with lowering and NOT removing the whole exhaust.

http://www.bmwe34.net/e34main/Maintenance/Transmission/CenterBearing.htm

So take a look at that, and I will be willing to guess that may be the problem. remember a lot of mechanics love replacing every single shimmy front end piece, and never look past that. Tell your mechanic to think outside the box.

Best of Luck,
Joe


1994 525I (Current)
1987 325 (Sold in 2003)
1994 525I (Sold in 1996)

[David]

I've been battling the same thing for a year. I had one part that helped - one of my Pirelli tires would deform when it got warm, so that got replaced. That took away some of the problem, but I still have the vibration. All tires are balanced, wheels are brand new.




Ok, I've changed my bushings, stab links, front shocks, and had my wheels aligned already.

Now the 50-60mph shimmy is back. Although above or below this speed, no vibrations at all.

What else could be wrong? A few E34 owners here in the Phil say that this is really the problem with the E34.

Could the Thrust arm itself be the problem, and not just the bushing? Could the lower control arms also cause this?

[jplacson]

Is this the same as the flex disc/propeller coupling? if so, I had mine changed already.

[Javier]

normally it is clever to switch them both together. You probably did.

[Jr ///M5]

Yup, Lemforder is the brand to stay with on suspension parts. There is one thing I can't believe you guys haven't suggested....tire balance. It is probably the cheapest and easiest fix for the biggest majority of the shimmys.
George's attitude toward the suspension woes is the best. If you can afford it, replace everything that's under there, while you're there. You'll enjoy your shimmy free ride over and over without regrets...that is, unless you skip the basic tire balance issue..=)

Jr

[632 Regal]

shimmy until its replaced with a round tire. I have been dealing with this crap since I got my tires at Discount tire scammers, almost a year now. They DO NOT want to honor a defective tire issue because the square tires are within spec. what spec is beyond me. All I know is I replaced everything and it's tight, at a slow crawl the car shakes back and forth side to side, which to me is a bent rim or a good for **** tire, well it aint a rim and the tires within spec so... withoud an AK and a mask I'm blessed with discount tires warranty till I burn the tires to the cords.

Can anyone tell I was there again yesterday wasting 3 hours trying to get this issue taken care of again? Total time must be pushing 15 hours so far...they are nice guys and all, I want to invite them to an ally in detroit and congratilate them on their fine service.

Within spec.

I was readin (dont i always) that tires from Florida are better tires all around cause of the freeway heat and the blems get sent to the other states, anyone hear about this or am I just dreamin about round tires?

[MO525]

Yup can use aluminum in cars whether they came with them on not. Most don't...I don't for example. Pretty much the only difference is weight...and not proportionate to the density diff between aluminum and steel as aluminum has a lower yield strength so has to be actually larger than the steel arm (more volume/section modulus) to compensate which erodes some of the weight savings.
Think you made the right choice with steel :-)...believe even the most discerning could never tell the difference on the street or track.
HTH,
George

A previous owner must have installed them.
I didn't even think about it until this thread brought up the subject.
Mine still have the remains of the part number tag/tape on them.
As long as they work properly, I don't mind if they're steel or aluminum. :)

[winfred]

aint gotta mask but i do gotta ak or two
http://members.cox.net/wdixon27/aks


withoud an AK and a mask I'm blessed with discount tires warranty till I burn the tires to the cords.

[Javier]

half of the tire were a bump over about 60 degrees of the tire circumference. When I got it out of the car, I made it run over the place and it was balancing from side to side when rolling. The car was not in a shimmy, no, it was more like a shake, earthquake, who knows, and was worse at about 50 mph. At very low speeds, you can feel in the steering wheel the front tires bouncing from one side to the other. Now that I replaced the tires, car is smooth all over the speed range, even with the fact that I got my drivers side trust arm bushing f.. up.

[winfred]

forget the what you wanted to type?

[jplacson]

Ok, do I have this right? Shimmys caused by tire/wheel or propeller shaft problems do NOT go away when you exceed 60mph? (I'm trying to narrow down the problems)

My shimmy starts at exactly 50mph, and dies out when I hit 60mph. Beyond 60mph, no shimmy, shakes, or vibrations at all. Braking doesn't cause my car to shimmy anymore (the brake shimmy stopped when I changed my thrust arm bushings)

I hear a slight 'clunk' when turning my steering wheel (it clunks about an inch off-center) ... stabilizer links and tie-rods were changed.

Could this be the ball-joints? Upper or lower control arms? Or the steering box mounting bolts?

Hmmm... seems I might have a control arm & subframe bushing replacement scheduled soon. :s Oh well... as long as it gets rid of that damn shimmy... very annoying. :P

[Unregistered]

I have a really nice 530 touring 1995. Same probs as every one else. New discs pads shocks, tie bar, track rods, tyres, stearing box! but I also get a thud as I go over a 1 inch kerb to my drive. It feels horid. any Ideas?

[Unregistered]

I have a really nice 530 touring 1995. Same probs as every one else. New discs pads shocks, tie bar, track rods, tyres, stearing box! but I also get a thud as I go over a 1 inch kerb to my drive. It feels horid. any Ideas?I Have a set of lower arms, after re reading all the above , would they make any difference, there is no play in them? Oh forgot to add, also after the sterring box was put in had the tracking done, sterring wheel was stright now 200miles later s/wheel is quart inch down the the left again? Ahhhh Im 36 now starting to look 66!

[MO525]

Ok, do I have this right? Shimmys caused by tire/wheel or propeller shaft problems do NOT go away when you exceed 60mph? (I'm trying to narrow down the problems)

My shimmy starts at exactly 50mph, and dies out when I hit 60mph. Beyond 60mph, no shimmy, shakes, or vibrations at all. Braking doesn't cause my car to shimmy anymore (the brake shimmy stopped when I changed my thrust arm bushings)

I hear a slight 'clunk' when turning my steering wheel (it clunks about an inch off-center) ... stabilizer links and tie-rods were changed.

Could this be the ball-joints? Upper or lower control arms? Or the steering box mounting bolts?

Hmmm... seems I might have a control arm & subframe bushing replacement scheduled soon. :s Oh well... as long as it gets rid of that damn shimmy... very annoying. :P

I had a light "clunk" in the steering wheel after having thrown all the normal worn-out E34 parts on my wife's 525.
Turned out to be the nut on the column needed a tightening.
That cured that problem.

AND.....after replacing all the front end components on her car, I STILL had the 50-60 shimmy.
What was it? The goons at the tire shop did not install my hubcentric rings in the wheels....they stabbed them onto the rotors where they were on so far that the tires did not contact them properly.
Removed the wheels, reset the rings and VOILA!
No more shimmy.

Again....that is what worked for ME but it's all stuff YOU can check.

Front end issues are a pain in the a** unless you're independently wealthy and just drop off your car with a Visa number at your local dealer or indy shop.
THEY'LL fix it.....a few thousand dollars later......

[632 Regal]

That sounds like your strut collar might be loose or strut itself may be shot. In reading your posts you havent mentioned replacing the front struts (shocks) if those are loose or bad it could cause a vibration that has not been mentioned in this thread.

[MO525]

That sounds like your strut collar might be loose or strut itself may be shot. In reading your posts you havent mentioned replacing the front struts (shocks) if those are loose or bad it could cause a vibration that has not been mentioned in this thread.

With the MESS of parts I've replaced, it's EASY to forget things.
As part of the deal when we bought the car, the previous owner had the struts replaced and provided proof in paperwork of having done so.

I no longer have a clunk and I THINK I have the shimmies licked....for now, that is. :(

[jplacson]

It's more of a mild 'clink' than a 'clunk' really. It might be the collar nut, I haven't checked that one yet... could it also be a ball joint, or the steering box moutning bolts?

[MO525]

It's more of a mild 'clink' than a 'clunk' really. It might be the collar nut, I haven't checked that one yet... could it also be a ball joint, or the steering box moutning bolts?

Cheap/easy fix.
You really ought to see how all that spindle/strut/Thrust Arm/lower control arm pivots when you turn it!
Talk about bizarre!
I installed tie rods yesterday and observed it with the tie rod off.

That Sway Bar end link takes a HUGE twist when the wheel is turned.....
Clink? You bet!
I replaced my end links weeks ago.
EASY....as long as the nuts come loose without a fuss.

[jplacson]

Ok thanks! Will be bringing into the shop that did the front end a month ago...it's still under warranty, and if any of the parts they changed are broken, or they installed it wrong... they should replace it all for free.

In any case, I'm gonna bring it to another indy shop that specializes in European suspensions... just for a 2nd opinion... I won't tell 'em what I had done, or what the problem is first... I wanna see what they have to say. :)

It's just a mild shimmy..no where near as bad as it was before. It doesn't shimmy anymore under any kind of braking. Only from 50-60mph. Will see. I'm also sourcing some hubcentric rings just in case.

[byurko]

I just got back from my BMW stealer today after a botched alignment. It was a few degrees out of align - it still didn't correct my shimmy. Like most others, it comes on a 50 and disappears at 60. I've been hunting my shimmy for over a year now. Here's what I've replaced:

Thrust arms
Lower control arms - Replaced my aluminum ones w/ steel - No difference!
Sway bar end links
Tie rods
Shocks - Front/Rear
Rotors/pads
Brand new tires
Hunter GSP9700 balance
I'm using hubcentric rings on 17" M5 replicas (not bent!)

After replacing all of this.... I still have my damn shimmy!!!

Well after talking w/ BMW techs today, they recommended I change out my center support bearing and driveshaft. They'll do it for $1323!! I'll probably get a guibo and center bearing ordered today from Patrick... BTW my car has 125,000 miles so I figure it's ready for it anyway. Hopefully this will correct it!!

Thanks for all the help guys!!