OT: Originality is Dead

[wingman]

From an article in Classic Car (UK) June 2006.

"A move away from an 'originality is best' mentality is having a dramatic effect on the classic car scene. Owners are refusing to live in the past, upgrading their cars to make them safer, more enjoyable and opting for driving-based events instead of the traditional club gatherings. They care less than ever about originality. The trend has resulted in the MG Owner's Club cancelling their National Meeting for the first time in 30 years..."

1. Is there anything wrong with making a car safer? Why not just buy a safer car?
2. Should a classic car be driven within its limitations and be appreciated for what it is or bastardised to drive like a 2006 model?
3. Will there be any original 'classics' left for our kids?

[Jehu]

Mod it up ,man!

[Zeuk in Oz]

From an article in Classic Car (UK) June 2006.

"A move away from an 'originality is best' mentality is having a dramatic effect on the classic car scene. Owners are refusing to live in the past, upgrading their cars to make them safer, more enjoyable and opting for driving-based events instead of the traditional club gatherings. They care less than ever about originality. The trend has resulted in the MG Owner's Club cancelling their National Meeting for the first time in 30 years..."

1. Is there anything wrong with making a car safer? Why not just buy a safer car?
2. Should a classic car be driven within its limitations and be appreciated for what it is or bastardised to drive like a 2006 model?
3. Will there be any original 'classics' left for our kids?

Interesting concept - I suppose it all started with those new fangled radial tyres ! :D

Safety that matters cannot be retro-fitted as far as I understand. How do you build a safety cell with deformable front and rear into an MG ? How do you add ABS, ESP, air bags and the like ?

I would suggest you buy 3 new Aston Martins or even 3 new Miatas (MX-5 in Oz), drive one and save the others for your kids ! These will presumably be the classic sports cars that will be coveted by school kids in 2046.

Will there still be petrol then ?

My view is keep classic cars stock as much as possible- to do anything else is to bastardise.

ps : can you still buy non-radial (cross ply) tyres ?

[rob101]

"The trend has resulted in the MG Owner's Club cancelling their National Meeting for the first time in 30 years..."

oh boo hoo, MG cars are POS anyway. :p
seriously though i think its just a sign of changing attitudes in people towards technology. i think its brought about by the information revolution, people want the newest and most advanced cars. Its like iPods and mobile phones, i just realised my mobile phone is little over 4 years old, however you kind of think of it as some kind of relic. people are starting to think like that about cars.
Thing is, that at least in australia the local manufacturers have been very slow to implement things like ABS and ESP across their ranges. they have fixed up their woefully inadequate chassis crashworthiness though which is good but largely the advances in those cars haven't really been that noteable. People believe what they are told is right for the most part because they are too lazy to care (research investigate or whatever) what the truth is. newer car = safer so they ditch that big sedan and get a barina....... safer? well, not really, but ignorance is bliss.

heres another point. if your a crap driver who makes a habit of tailgating trucks or pulling onto median strips of highways. You're going to get screwed up sooner or later, people still get killed driving 4wds and the other "invincibly" safe cars on the road. so perhaps learning how to drive better whilst costing you a decent amount will be cheaper than getting this newer car and still being a moving disaster zone.

PS almost broken the 1000 post threshold. after which point i am going on sabbathical for 3 months:p

[HDhandyman]

hmmm, well I actually like some of the new "old" cars. I think that the reintroduction of the bug was pretty cool. It had good crash test rating and the contours were all new and classic at the same time. VW is moving towards "suck" a little slower than BMW, but I'll give em credit for that. There are others that are eluding me at the moment.

I also think that despite tough times, etc., Chrysler/ Dodge have done a pretty good job of keeping it original over the last 15 years.--They have rehashed several old ideas from cobra like sports cars, to american station wagons, to old beach wagons, and the new lines are somewhat appealing----though I'd have to say that the visibilty in those cars is absolute shite.

And, while I'm not sure what the trend in OZ has been in the last 20 years, I'm now finding myself reflecting on the fact that we can thank our Euro Big boys (MB, Volvo, Saab, and BMW) for the introduction of "safety first". I remember family members reading a magazine article about the first airbags in a benz at the family table, and I'll bet most here remember how cool "they're boxy, but they're good." was after the movie "Crazy People" came out and Volvo picked up the slogan.

For me, Classic cars means American, as well as Euro. Seems like the great "muscle car" era was almost completely destroyed here by the Japanese quickness toward American marketing for fuel efficiency. Our home grown companies lost that battle and struggled to get back, ever since. Only the staples like the Camaro, Monty Carlo and the Corvette survived.---Now, we hardly even see new versions of those cars on the road here in the last couple of years. What little we have left seems to be carried on in the spirit of Patriotism and American Racing.

BTW, I also think that the smart car is really cool. I can't wait to purchase one here!

[F4Phantom]

oh boo hoo, MG cars are POS anyway. :p
seriously though i think its just a sign of changing attitudes in people towards technology. i think its brought about by the information revolution, people want the newest and most advanced cars. Its like iPods and mobile phones, i just realised my mobile phone is little over 4 years old, however you kind of think of it as some kind of relic. people are starting to think like that about cars.
Thing is, that at least in australia the local manufacturers have been very slow to implement things like ABS and ESP across their ranges. they have fixed up their woefully inadequate chassis crashworthiness though which is good but largely the advances in those cars haven't really been that noteable. People believe what they are told is right for the most part because they are too lazy to care (research investigate or whatever) what the truth is. newer car = safer so they ditch that big sedan and get a barina....... safer? well, not really, but ignorance is bliss.

heres another point. if your a crap driver who makes a habit of tailgating trucks or pulling onto median strips of highways. You're going to get screwed up sooner or later, people still get killed driving 4wds and the other "invincibly" safe cars on the road. so perhaps learning how to drive better whilst costing you a decent amount will be cheaper than getting this newer car and still being a moving disaster zone.

PS almost broken the 1000 post threshold. after which point i am going on sabbathical for 3 months:p


I visit a 4x4 forum (my other car) and you would be amazed that all the 4x4 owners think they are safe in a crash. Research shows this is not true apart from very modern 4x4's which handle like a car and have 10 airbags etc.. but these new ones are not good off road (x5 sucks bad) with the exception of the rangie. So a traditional good off road 4x4 is crap in a crash and I would much prefer to be in the BMW. But yes this invincibility thing is a problem I dont understand, I suppose people trust their own judement more than science. I feel that unless you need a 4x4 for one of its few positive qualities, drive a freakin ford falcon wagon!

[Zeuk in Oz]

but these new ones are not good off road (x5 sucks bad)
Except on sand where the X5 is fantastic. Horses for courses.

[Zeuk in Oz]

hmmm, well I actually like some of the new "old" cars. I think that the reintroduction of the bug was pretty cool. It had good crash test rating and the contours were all new and classic at the same time. VW is moving towards "suck" a little slower than BMW, but I'll give em credit for that. There are others that are eluding me at the moment.
Did you ever drive the new bug ?

Absolutely woeful front end - supposed to be like a Golf (Do you still call them Rabbits ?) but its dynamics were terribly inferior.

The new Mini (BMW again) was a different matter and handles nicely.

[GJPinAU]

Did a motorkhana for the MG car club 2 weeks ago.
12 Officials, 7 entrants - started @10 finished by 12.
I was really amazed as MG is probably the biggest club around.

Speaking of classics: VW bugs with WRX engines and I've heard of a full all-wheel drive version. sensational!

[rob101]

The new Mini (BMW again) was a different matter and handles nicely.
I might think about buying one in the future, they are a good car safety wise as well.
I think perhaps the thing I object too the most. Is people foregoing buying an "good" older car (e34 is a good example as is e32) to buy a crap new car such as toyota echo. and then saying "oh look its safer because its new" WRONG! you're dead wrong, my car has ABS and a wheelbase that allows me to manuveure at speed and not loop the car. and a drivers side airbag, and a chassis that is STIFF even 15 years after it was manufactured.
an inferior car that is built now is not better than a good car that was built 10 years ago.
I think with some people i know there is a little bit of a Poseur factor as well. oh look I have a new car aren't I great. Suck it up! that thing has 100 hp and goes 0-100 in 4 hrs and can't go around corners properly and has no spare tyre. how is that better for the same cost (yes we have larger maintenance costs but they get stung with way more depreciation)?

[Zeuk in Oz]

I think perhaps the thing I object too the most. Is people foregoing buying an "good" older car (e34 is a good example as is e32) to buy a crap new car such as toyota echo. and then saying "oh look its safer because its new" WRONG! you're dead wrong, my car has ABS and a wheelbase that allows me to manuveure at speed and not loop the car. and a drivers side airbag, and a chassis that is STIFF even 15 years after it was manufactured.
Agreed, but then we don't all have your superior driving skills, Rob. :D

Seriously though, the general rule applies that a new E60 will be safer than an E39 which in turn is safer than an E34.

The mistake most people make is comparing a Korean sh!tbox with 3 stars in an NCAP crash test with a larger car that gets 3 stars.

You can only compare like with like with respect to vehicle weight.

I still maintain that the critical weight is in the 1300-1400 kg range and anything under that is just asking for a trip to the cemetery.

(Gets off soap-box) ! :D

[wingman]

I think it's a shame that people are getting into the 'classic car' scene and buying these old cars and expecting them to go like something a couple of years old. I think that is the point being made here. Make the decision, will I buy a 1962 MG and enjoy the basic, close the bone driving experience. I will enjoy it for what it is and not expect it to behave like a modern or buy a modern with A/C, ABS, stereo, sat nav etc etc that will totally isolate me from the driving experience that the classic provides.

[HDhandyman]

Did you ever drive the new bug ?

Absolutely woeful front end - supposed to be like a Golf (Do you still call them Rabbits ?) but its dynamics were terribly inferior.

The new Mini (BMW again) was a different matter and handles nicely.

You're right Zeuk, the front end was a piece. But, the love that my wife and I have for her 73 (when it's running) on a snowy winter night gave us a greater appreciation for the new Bugs that we drove when she used to work at the BMW VW dealership here in town. We didn't buy one because we prefer that classic experience, after all, but we certainly appreciated the nod. We truly were comparing apples to apples (73 apples to 2000 apples)--LOL.

I think what this thread is missing is the comparision between the older model and the new----rather than older cars to new cars. For the most part you can say "people don't appreciate the classic experience anymore", and that's very true. But, sometimes you have to say "this isn't the original, but I understand how we got here, and this thing is pretty nice". That's all Tony, just considering the grey area!:D

[ThoreauHD]

The only safety feature that I've seen on new cars that surpasses older heavier models are side impact air bags. Safety for me, besides driving a tank, is knowing that a light bulb shorting out isn't going to keep me from starting the engine. I prefer this model of BMW because it's the last of the KISS and do it yourself line. The E34 has electronic alerts, but isn't dependent upon them to get your ass outta dodge. I like that.

[azale]

1. Is there anything wrong with making a car safer? Why not just buy a safer car?
2. Should a classic car be driven within its limitations and be appreciated for what it is or bastardised to drive like a 2006 model?
3. Will there be any original 'classics' left for our kids?
I go back and forth on this one. If you can find an old car that is basically all original, you have found something very special, and it should be kept that way. Classic preservation is amazing, but not all cars can be suited to that purpose.

If I decide to keep and continue to drive my 200,000+ mile BMW for another 10 years, hardly anything will be original: new trans, paint, engine, electronics, upgrades. It's too late for a car like that to be returned to original condidtion. And what about classic cars that have been in accidents? I say, fix them up, straighten them out, and if you want to put some serious money into them with bigger engines, leather, sound . . . I can appreciate that too.

Adding safety features is fine as long as it's not traction control.


The trend has resulted in the MG Owner's Club cancelling their National Meeting for the first time in 30 years..."
Don't tell these guys. In Michigan, the MG fans still get together. They were in my dad's subdivision last weekend:
http://www.andyzale.com/album/albums/userpics/10002/7%2006%20231.jpg
http://www.andyzale.com/album/albums/userpics/10002/7%2006%20229.jpg
http://www.andyzale.com/album/albums/userpics/10002/7%2006%20232.jpg


The real question is:

What would Jon K do? :)

[ILoveMPower]

If you can find an old car that is basically all original, you have found something very special, and it should be kept that way. Classic preservation is amazing, but not all cars can be suited to that purpose.

This is exactly how I feel. However, like you said, if it's a car you're going to be driving for the next ten years, you might as well feel free to use money that would be going to repairs to upgrade the performance, as well as the appearance while you're at it. A car is meant to be enjoyed, and unless its a true GEM of a classic ride (IMO), feel free to waste your money on it :P

[Evan]

my kids wont be allowed to drive

[wingman]

Yes the accident thing is interesting. You replace the handle on your favourite hammer and then replace the head sometime later. Is it still the same hammer? I'm not suggesting to anyone that the E34 fits into the 'classic car' bracket and unless it's an M5 probably never will. But I think that if you have something special, keep it special. I'm into old Fender guitars. If you have an original with only one chip of original paint still on it it is worth twice the money of one that has been repainted...

[rob101]

I've always wanted an early 911, probably the 2.4 911E which is apparently faster than the 2.4L 911S from 0-160kph (i think in a car that old i'd rather stay below 160 anyway!) not sure how i'd live with it day to day as some of those have a reputation for being unstable. It is rather irritating however that people upgrade the early 911s with body kits so they look like 1980s 911s. now i don't know about you but i think whoever designed the look of the 1980s 911s should be put in jail and i don't know why anyone would, when they have the classic early shape 911 want to make it look like the 1980s ones.

YAY grandmaster status!;)

[nizmainiac]

some people like to keep things original others don't, at the end of the day its personal preferance

[Zeuk in Oz]

the love that my wife and I have for her 73 (when it's running) on a snowy winter night gave us a greater appreciation for the new Bugs that we drove when she used to work at the BMW VW dealership here in town.
Love the flower in the vase on the dash though ! :)

[Toomas]

If you have a real classic then you can drive it and fix it and repaint it and it will not lose value.
Its a really funny thing, the cars made in tens you can use and the ones made in thousands you have to baby like crazy.

There was some TV show about the Ferrari 250GTO roadtrip (or however you want to call it) and ~25 of the 36 (was it 36?) ever made were present and drove all the way of the 2 or 3 day trip.

[wingman]

some people like to keep things original others don't, at the end of the day its personal preferance

Fair enough but do we, as custodians, have an obligation to not tart up a classic car. I like Rob101s comments about the Porsche thing. He also stated that he would keep the car under 160 due to its age. This is the kind of classic car responsibility that I'm talking about. As a matter of fact lets just rip all that art deco shite off the Chrysler building and make it look like it was built in 2006. That would be way cool.

[wingman]

Fair enough but do we, as custodians, have an obligation to not tart up a classic car.

I'm not suggesting we as in 'us E34 owners'. Just a generalised 'we'. I see nothing wrong whatsoever with 'doing up' an E34 (as long as there's not 50 tv screens and a big purple love heart on the side...).

[pundit]

...I see nothing wrong whatsoever with 'doing up' an E34 (as long as there's not 50 tv screens and a big purple love heart on the side...).
You gotta problem with my luv heart!!
At least I got taste... it's a shagpile purple luv heart... MOFO!! :p

[Toomas]

Fair enough but do we, as custodians, have an obligation to not tart up a classic car. I like Rob101s comments about the Porsche thing. He also stated that he would keep the car under 160 due to its age. This is the kind of classic car responsibility that I'm talking about. As a matter of fact lets just rip all that art deco shite off the Chrysler building and make it look like it was built in 2006. That would be way cool.

Why buy a sports car and then drive it like it was **** on a stick?
Why buy a sunday car anyways if it will cause you more headache and sleepless nights than fun?
Cars are for driving and sports cars are for driving fast. Yes old cars are not safe and thats the risk you take when you buy one, if you dont want to risk then dont buy it. Also if you keep them in good condition the wheels wont fly off just because its old.

And if there were ten thousand Chrysler buildings then why the hell not?

[pundit]

You might remember this (http://www.bimmer.info/forum/showthread.php?t=17378&highlight=356) thread.

[NY535iManual]

I think that everybody's conception of what constitutes "original" is interesting. I mean, I think we all agree that putting LCD screens into the headrests of a cherry MGA or Triumph TR6 is vomit inducing, but what about putting peformance shocks and lowering springs on our e34s (as about 90% of the people on this forum seem to have done)? Does a REVERSIBLE upgrade really make a car any less original? What about period correct upgrades? I'm thinking of the guy who writes the tech section for either Roundel or Bimmer- He's building up a 78 e21 320 time trial car, using parts which were available during that era...

[genphreak]

Except on sand where the X5 is fantastic. Horses for courses.This (really should be) irrelevant as cars have bearings and other parts that rust and don't like sand. It's just the ads that tell us its OK to do... its just damn stupid thing to do really especially if the car has **any life** left in it.

I like this thread though (originality is dead), the issue is is very valid...
Great contributions everyone!

[wingman]

Does a REVERSIBLE upgrade really make a car any less original? What about period correct upgrades? I'm thinking of the guy who writes the tech section for either Roundel or Bimmer- He's building up a 78 e21 320 time trial car, using parts which were available during that era...

Very good points here. I love the idea of 'period' mods. I've seen various pictures of a BMW 1600-2 with Alpina bits dsiplayed on the floor in front of it like manifolds, steering wheels etc. These were period mods and, IMHO, totally cool and in keeping with the spirit of things. Reversible mods are also IMHO a good way to go if you must mod. I know there are people out there who would mod a McLaren F1 just because they can't help themselves.