How to question - inspecting front end parts

[Jeff N.]

I still have the mystery clunk in the front end. Usual suspects have been checked and then some. I think part of the problem is how I'm checking for problems - front end jacked up and the wheels unsupported. I think this tensions the front end steering components and generally makes it harder (impossible?) to determine where the looseness is.

This weekend, I put the front end on stands and then jacked up each front wheel and supported it with some blocks in an effort to put the suspension in a more natural position. Still couldn't find any problems. Sooooo....2 questions.

- how the heck to you best inspect ball joints, tie rod ends, pitman arms and all that?
- second, in particular, i think i may have play in part number #14 here - in the bushing. How the heck do check this part for play? I've pushed, pulled, whacked, levered (sort of, hard to get an angle) in an attempt to check.

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/diagrams/n/h/4.png

TIA!

Jeff

[Jeff N.]

bump

[632 Regal]

Jeff, your in a grey area for sure. One thing is you usually need 2 people to check it. to check balljoints (my method so far fool proof) I roll forward or backwards slow and jab the brakes, if its a ball joint it will make a clunk type noise (no radio and windows up). for steering play you can either have the car on ramps as someone rotates the steering wheel back and forth while you are under the car, feel the joints with your hand as small amounts of play will be very hard to see, but you will be able to feel it. Have you reefed the strut collars down tighter than they were? the sway bar links go the same way, get the car in the air and push pull up/down and "feel" for play.

good luck, some of these are a PITA.

[Jeff N.]

...I've just about peeled apart the entire front end. Noise is on the passenger side. Noise only happens on when the right side tire goes up/down on a quite rough road. Expansion joint won't make the noise. Yoking the car left and right won't make the noise. Sounds almost like a rattle. Thunkathunkathunka.

Pulled and rebuilt the right front strut; put in a new strut bearing, checked the sway bar links and tightness. Checked as best possible the tie rod ends and ball joints (no fore/aft clunking). Thrust and control ams all look good and are tight. Subframe's tight. Engine mounts are tight. Checked the steering box mounts, the idler arm pivot bolt, and the center link.

My best suspicion at the moment is that it's the idler arm bushing. Get enough up down on the front wheel works play in the bushing on the idler arm. Left/right motions load up the arm keeping it from clunking. When I put the car in the air, I think the suspension hangs down and loads up that arm preventing me from seeing the play. I can't think of what else it can be.

Made an appointment today to take it to the shop. Time to call in the professionals. I'm stumped on this one. :(




Jeff, your in a grey area for sure. One thing is you usually need 2 people to check it. to check balljoints (my method so far fool proof) I roll forward or backwards slow and jab the brakes, if its a ball joint it will make a clunk type noise (no radio and windows up). for steering play you can either have the car on ramps as someone rotates the steering wheel back and forth while you are under the car, feel the joints with your hand as small amounts of play will be very hard to see, but you will be able to feel it. Have you reefed the strut collars down tighter than they were? the sway bar links go the same way, get the car in the air and push pull up/down and "feel" for play.

good luck, some of these are a PITA.

[632 Regal]

dont you have ramps Jeff? without them I understand it is very hard to do anything like this. Hope the pros dont rape you bad.

[SnakeyesTx]

I usually separate the control arm or tie rod to check the ball joints. Since our suspension is setup a lot like a nissan sentra (no kidding), you could do this pretty easily.

Put the car on stands, take the brake goodies off, back the thrust arm nut down until all the threads above the nut are covered up and pop it with a 3lb hammer a few times to separate the ball joint from the knuckle. You can do this also with the tie rod ends.

Once you have that loose, take the nut off let the thrust arm or tie rod come out of the knuckle then grab the shaft of the ball joint. Try to work it back and forth (side to side). It shouldn't just flop around freely, you really need to put a little effort into moving it around. If it feels really loose, also try to pull up and down on it to see if the ball comes up and down in the cup. If that's the case.. there's yer problem :D

Oh yeah.. installation is reverse of removal... and always use new cotter pins on castle-nuts.

[Jeff N.]

...I can see that loosening things up would help.

Jeff - no ramps in my stash o' tools.


I usually separate the control arm or tie rod to check the ball joints. Since our suspension is setup a lot like a nissan sentra (no kidding), you could do this pretty easily.

Put the car on stands, take the brake goodies off, back the thrust arm nut down until all the threads above the nut are covered up and pop it with a 3lb hammer a few times to separate the ball joint from the knuckle. You can do this also with the tie rod ends.

Once you have that loose, take the nut off let the thrust arm or tie rod come out of the knuckle then grab the shaft of the ball joint. Try to work it back and forth (side to side). It shouldn't just flop around freely, you really need to put a little effort into moving it around. If it feels really loose, also try to pull up and down on it to see if the ball comes up and down in the cup. If that's the case.. there's yer problem :D

Oh yeah.. installation is reverse of removal... and always use new cotter pins on castle-nuts.

[aston_jag_tech]

I checked all my susp parts on a lift at work. I found EVERYTHING WORN. Umm, you know b/js thrust arms sway bar end links, idler, pitman arms, tie rods. I found all the loose components with pry bar(3 foot) tie rods I used my hands(great tools) and the idler and pitman i used hands(the touch)
And it is so much easier with the car bottom about 6feet up. So leverage is available and brute force.

One thing that I need to do(Again) is replace the left side thrust(bushing is cashed due to p/s fluid leak)

Jeff N. You think you could get a sound clip of the clunk? You know what I just thought of??????!!!

CHASSIS EARS!!!
These are the ****!
Amplifies you knocks, your clunks and your whats????
We have them at the shop and I believe Snap-On, Matco and Cornwell Sell them. I will ask where my Shop Foreman bought his. They seriously save time finding the problem.

-Scott

[attack eagle]

hmm do you mean a nice clunk when you go over a bump? I'm betting mine is the suspension... but leaning more towards the shock mounting. I can see the nut and cup move up and down if I stand in the door sill and bounce the car.

[genphreak]

Idler arm bushing is a simple thing to do. You can pull it with the car on ramps or stands with a 14/17mm socket and spanner. It is torqued back in place of course. Pressing the bushing is not a tough job. However, we replaced the bushing in mine when Kriss and I pulled it all. I remember being very surprised, the old bushing was not physically worn at all, as far as my eye could tell...

My money is on the sway bar links. They cost what less than $40 for Lems and are a wear item... if the solution is not found in this one can just keep the old ones on-hand for when the new ones wear out. :)

The clunks are either these, the strut bolts or the thrust arm bushings- ball joints are possible of course. All the others are hard and costly to replace (and to some extent check).

Is the suspension OE/Lemforder or are there replacement items in there btw Jeff?

[ryan roopnarine]

thunka thunka thunk on a brick road can be one of the brake pad retaining clips, ask me how i know. though it is very unlikely that this is your problem, you may as well buy some fresh ones from the cheapest place possible if you are going through all of this trouble.

[Robin-535im]

... I can see the nut and cup move up and down if I stand in the door sill and bounce the car.
You wear a cup when working on the car? After Winfred's thread... prolly a good idea when doing suspension stuff.

[aston_jag_tech]

thunka thunka thunk on a brick road can be one of the brake pad retaining clips, ask me how i know. though it is very unlikely that this is your problem, you may as well buy some fresh ones from the cheapest place possible if you are going through all of this trouble.

How do you know??? I heard that noise before on a older XJ-40 Jag, Rattles...
Interested to hear..:)

[ryan roopnarine]

How do you know??? I heard that noise before on a older XJ-40 Jag, Rattles...
Interested to hear..:)


got the thunka thunka thunks after doing shocks/thrust arms/control arms. took the whole thing apart, thinking that i did something wrong. broke the stud off a lemforder tie rod end doing so. I had to get a duralast tie rod end from autozone (lifetime warranty!!) to replace it. put everything back together, but left off the retaining clip on the opposite side of car. got the noise from both sides now. swapped the clips around on the front of the car, noise went away. eventually replaced both with new when i had a chance.

[ryan roopnarine]

ps--the weird thing about the autozone tie rod ends is that one P/N is an american part, like dana or trw or something, and another is a german part (name fails me now) that you might pay a decent bit of money to get from bma. i've had to replace 2 ends on this car because of broken studs, and got one of each.

[Jeff N.]

^%&#@ Sway bar link. Astonishing really. Our local bimmer shop diagnoised it as a sway bar link. So I picked up two new Lemfoerder ones and tossed them on tonight. Gone.

I never would have found this I think even if I had pulled both links off to inspect them. There was just a *tad* - I'm talking a very very little play in the end of one link. Hardly could feel it if you work/push/pull on the joint with the link out of the car. The noise? Oh yeah...sounded like someone with a 4lb sledge whacking on the rim of the car. So little cause, so much effect. Ya think that big phat RD sway bar has something to do with it? :D

Well..chalk one up to the pros. Cost me $90 to have them figure it out. Money well spent in my book.

Nose of da bimmer bangs no mo'.





Idler arm bushing is a simple thing to do. You can pull it with the car on ramps or stands with a 14/17mm socket and spanner. It is torqued back in place of course. Pressing the bushing is not a tough job. However, we replaced the bushing in mine when Kriss and I pulled it all. I remember being very surprised, the old bushing was not physically worn at all, as far as my eye could tell...

My money is on the sway bar links. They cost what less than $40 for Lems and are a wear item... if the solution is not found in this one can just keep the old ones on-hand for when the new ones wear out. :)

The clunks are either these, the strut bolts or the thrust arm bushings- ball joints are possible of course. All the others are hard and costly to replace (and to some extent check).

Is the suspension OE/Lemforder or are there replacement items in there btw Jeff?