View Full Version : Lowering Spring Install Hangup
I've made at least ten attempts at getting the top of my strut assembly together but I fail each time.
The problem is after I have everything in place and the 19mm top nut tightened down, I can still wiggle the spring around and even dislodge it from the lower or upper spring pad. I know this cant be right but I can't correct it either.
1. Strut in tube
2. Torque new strut collar
3. Place lower spring pad (3mm)
4. Place protective cover with washer and bump stop.
5. Place spring
6. Place upper spring pad (3mm) and strut mount.
7. Place rubber/metal washer and start top nut
8. At this point, Ive tried compressing the spring and then torquing top nut... torquing top nut without spring compression... and all kinds of other ideas that didn't pan out
I've checked to make sure I have the proper springs and struts and the part numbers check out.
I've literally been doing this over and over for days because I'm insane... I keep getting the same result.
All ideas are welcome.
Cheers,
Evan in Maryland
Do you still have the stock spring on the other side? If so, temporarily disconnect the swaybar link to let each side compress independently.
I have the car up and both sides disassembled. I haven't installed the struts on the car yet... I must be missing something obvious
Mr Project
09-04-2006, 07:26 PM
What combo of spring and strut insert are you using? I've had short aftermarket springs (on other cars) that could slop around when the suspension was unloaded. They were just short enough that they didn't 'spring' the strut shaft all the way out. As long as it seats ok when the suspension is loaded, it shouldn't be a problem unless you do dukes-of-hazzard-style driving all the time. :)
Are you able to hold the strut shaft with an allen wrench while you tighten the 19mm nut?
I usually use an air impact wrench...do you have access to an impact?
I'm using KYB with H&R springs.
i do have air tools... all the stuff I need. I have an allen and a 19mm wrench... I guess this is how they go in but it seems so w r o n g
Mr Project
09-04-2006, 07:40 PM
Other than probably ending up with a ride quality that is underdamped...I think you're probably ok as-is. The KYB's probably just have a longer shaft throw than the spring height. Not ideal but probably not the end of the world.
You're right on the money.
I'm pretty unhappy about it... but I won't throw them away and buy Koni just yet... I'll drive them for a few thousand miles
ok I changed my mind.. I need to get rid of these and get new struts...
all of this to save $70 on a car I've invested over $10K in........................
ILoveMPower
09-04-2006, 08:44 PM
Sorry for your troubles, but I'm sure you'll love the Koni's!
Triton540i
09-04-2006, 08:51 PM
I love my Koni suspension!!!! :)
Do not use KYB struts with H&R lowering springs. They do not fit together properly due to the KYB strut's longer piston. The KYB strut is made to go with a stock BMW 5-series spring.
H&R
KYB
lower
lowering
spring
springs
strut
nizmainiac
09-05-2006, 03:14 PM
dude you are using a shortened spring with a standard shock theres bound to be some slack, once you get it back on the ground it'll be fine , once you get the approriate shortened shocks it'll make everything nice and tight again , i put koni springs on standard gas kyb's on my pulsar and had the same spring wiggle and that was o.k. even over large jumps the springs never left their seats
thanks for the input, niz
ive replaced every steering and suspension part, save for the dogbones... i'm working on buying new struts and shocks... bilstein or koni
Put it together with what you have, it will be fine once some weight is on it. Short springs=lower ride.
Good job on the keywords in your post ;)
Have you dropped the car with them installed to see what it's like? Though KYB, even AGXs aren't the best for lowering springs, I'd not run to konis yet...
Brandon J
09-05-2006, 11:59 PM
ok I changed my mind.. I need to get rid of these and get new struts...
all of this to save $70 on a car I've invested over $10K in........................
Evan,
Well said. It also is a pain to do things twice. Ask those that have ridden in my e34 or a blueprinted Dinan suspension and you will notice the difference in manners. Koni or Bilstein you cannot go wrong. Very good job of doing things correctly. H&R's are tight so a soft koni is probably a better idea. Then add the sways, perhaps camber plates up front and you will notice a compliant ride with amazing handling. You point is very well said as many don't see the investment of actually spending more money initially to do things correctly so that you don't pay for it more later on. Please don't forget to keep us updated with initial impressions and long-term update.
I blueprinted everything about my suspension, from bushings, tires, to sway links, to wear on the struts. Mine is very very compliant and sticks very well on turns. It even handles the bumps very well on sweeping turns and off ramps. It keeps the tires on the ground at all times, the weight transfer fr/back and side to side is smooth and predictable, can take larger bumps (quick compression of the shock) well as well as pot holes (quick rebound/extension). Breaking the rear end loose or even the front is easily controlled and very predictable. The key is having a sound base to work with and to build upon. I chose the matched Sachs kit, along with RD sways. Then added front Dinan camber plates b/c the front needed it due to the wheelbase, M5 thrust arm bushings for the tighter rubber, used new rubber when things are out like the strut mounts, Racing King subframe inserts, Pilot sports with 245/45 for the front for a little give upon bumps, but stays firm on turns...plus the extra width helps on off ramps, light T-stars, 255/40 on the rears, adjust toe, etc. I chose the front brakes and pads to specifically keep the balance of the vehicle as well as handle the larger tire up front. No issues with ABS' pulse and again I balanced with the brake size and pad friction for proper lock-up upon emergency braking and good braking characteristics overall. I guess I am bias, but ask Gayle, ed, Kris, Scott, Brandon H, and others who have ridden in my e34 and they can contest how well it handles and rides. It's all about doing it right and planning well. Sorry for the long description, but wanted to add descriptions about handling characteristics because, it rides good, or it should be okay, or rides smooth is not descriptive enough when trying to understand how different suspensions perform.
Don't mean to take over, just to illustrate how much goes into a well balanced suspension and how much planning is needed for BMWs sensitive suspension systems. You did it by not compromising on the most important suspension parts, matching springs, shocks and using new associated wear parts. They are also the hardest parts to change, the most time consuming to change, and the most expensive to purchase.
Good Job!!! Keep up the good work.
Thanks for all the info. i enjoyed reading about your car.
I'm still at a loss for how this could have happened... esp after reading about another board member who just installed KYB/Eibach and is very happy.
I'm wondering if I just have the wrong struts... they did come with a 19mm nut when my originals had a 22mm top nut...
SC David
09-07-2006, 04:00 PM
As I said in that other thread, I'm using H&R Sports and KYB's and I am very happy with the setup so far. It's a little bit soft for my tastes, but I like the way it sits, and they way it rides around potholey San Francisco. There was no play in my setup, front or rear, while assembling it, so I'm guessing that KYB probably did not get it right when they made struts for the 540i. Let us know how everything turns out!
Dukes
09-07-2006, 04:55 PM
Brandon, that's nice that you took the time to type all that but maybe he just has the wrong shocks or the wrong springs. I think it's too early to go jumping around brands if the root cause hasn't been addressed.
The KYB shocks and Eibachs I have on my 530 installed without a hitch and it rides great.
Allow me to address the root cause.
I'm stoopid.
Ok the cause is using a 3mm upper spring pad leaves a lot of play in the strut assembly.
This is secondary to the length of the KYB piston (and tertiary to my stoopidity). They are NOT MADE to be used with lowering springs!
632 Regal
09-07-2006, 07:42 PM
hope the rear sachs shocks work, just ordered them.
Allow me to address the root cause.
I'm stoopid.
Ok the cause is using a 3mm upper spring pad leaves a lot of play in the strut assembly.
This is secondary to the length of the KYB piston (and tertiary to my stoopidity). They are NOT MADE to be used with lowering springs!
genphreak
09-07-2006, 07:53 PM
hope the rear sachs shocks work, just ordered them.You cna buy the Sashs rears separately now? Are they Sports versions?? I asked BMA a while back, they said they can only get them as a kit... with fronts and 4 springs... :(
Brandon J
09-07-2006, 10:24 PM
Brandon, that's nice that you took the time to type all that but maybe he just has the wrong shocks or the wrong springs. I think it's too early to go jumping around brands if the root cause hasn't been addressed.
The KYB shocks and Eibachs I have on my 530 installed without a hitch and it rides great.
Too early? Nah. I don't need to explain reasons for considering Koni or Bilstein since it is known and still lots of information out there. I think I addressed a lot of good relevant information. I also left different ways at looking at handling performance. If he did a "doh" or ordered the wrong strut, that is a problem he has to figure out himself since it is simply checking the part number. I spoke about handling characteristics and why he should choose a better shock. The suspension information is valuable to him as well as others with whatever shock is chosen. I am not new to the e34 or its suspension or knowing 1st hand different set-ups. You could always skip over what I wrote next time.
I am sorry, "rides great" just isn't descriptive enough.
Ok the cause is using a 3mm upper spring pad leaves a lot of play in the strut assembly.
This is secondary to the length of the KYB piston (and tertiary to my stoopidity). They are NOT MADE to be used with lowering springs!
Precisely! Enough said.
Dukes
09-08-2006, 01:11 AM
I am sorry, "rides great" just isn't descriptive enough.
:p I see. You're looking for a response condusive to what I feel the suspension is doing around, say, turn #12. Well, I'm a spirited daily driver and only interested in the end game. "Rides great", I feel is very descriptive versus the 'KYB is not made for sports springs' rhetoric I see a lot. This simply is not true. Evidently, from my standpoint if you install everything correctly, have the right parts and tools, I don't see why you won't get good results out of these better than stock parts.
...And don't go there about having a BMW and money because I have both. :)
Brandon J
09-08-2006, 02:25 AM
:p I see. You're looking for a response condusive to what I feel the suspension is doing around, say, turn #12. Well, I'm a spirited daily driver and only interested in the end game. "Rides great", I feel is very descriptive versus the 'KYB is not made for sports springs' rhetoric I see a lot. This simply is not true. Evidently, from my standpoint if you install everything correctly, have the right parts and tools, I don't see why you won't get good results out of these better than stock parts.
...And don't go there about having a BMW and money because I have both. :)
What are you trying to start? Wrong forum for that. And yes, what I described earlier does apply to daily driving. Hmm, I believe I mentioned potholes, bumps, bumps on turns on the off ramp, etc. Any mention of track? NOPE. I did mention street situations. That's where I do 99% of my driving. Perhaps when you learn more about handling characteristics and are able to identify what those characteristics are, you can do a search for this thread and find the information useful.
Newer stock parts do perform better than older worn stock parts, and the point is? KYB is better than stock? Depends as support/evidence/reasons usually follow afterwards, otherwise it's just plain hearsay. The description and talk earlier was about the e34 suspension system, its components, choices for individual components, how those choices affect other systems of the vehicle, and the total outcome. Again, the better MATCHED shock is a sport shock. The concern was suspension travel and matching the springs travel and strut travel. The dampening wasn't of discussion when talking about the KYB strut, it was the length of travel. If the KYB is used with sport springs, the stock bumpstops do have to be trimmed a little for proper suspension travel and decreasing the likelyhood of hitting the bumpstops on turns and bumps. :p
...BMW and money....why are you mentioning this? Insecure? :( Again, wrong forum.
The work and proper tools...are you still learning?
Just not worth getting into as you it appears you are still learning a lot about the e34. Also, clearly your objective/goal is to make your own e34 "ride great" while not matching components and proper planning...so be it. I'll help the other's who accept feedback and real world expereince from this veteran.
Dukes
09-08-2006, 12:55 PM
What are you trying to start? Wrong forum for that. And yes, what I described earlier does apply to daily driving. Hmm, I believe I mentioned potholes, bumps, bumps on turns on the off ramp, etc. Any mention of track? NOPE. I did mention street situations. That's where I do 99% of my driving. Perhaps when you learn more about handling characteristics and are able to identify what those characteristics are, you can do a search for this thread and find the information useful.
Newer stock parts do perform better than older worn stock parts, and the point is? KYB is better than stock? Depends as support/evidence/reasons usually follow afterwards, otherwise it's just plain hearsay. The description and talk earlier was about the e34 suspension system, its components, choices for individual components, how those choices affect other systems of the vehicle, and the total outcome. Again, the better MATCHED shock is a sport shock. The concern was suspension travel and matching the springs travel and strut travel. The dampening wasn't of discussion when talking about the KYB strut, it was the length of travel. If the KYB is used with sport springs, the stock bumpstops do have to be trimmed a little for proper suspension travel and decreasing the likelyhood of hitting the bumpstops on turns and bumps. :p
...BMW and money....why are you mentioning this? Insecure? :( Again, wrong forum.
The work and proper tools...are you still learning?
Just not worth getting into as you it appears you are still learning a lot about the e34. Also, clearly your objective/goal is to make your own e34 "ride great" while not matching components and proper planning...so be it. I'll help the other's who accept feedback and real world expereince from this veteran.
Hmm, I see you like to dance with words. No problem. I can read through BS.
How exactly did you "help" Evan with the play in his assembly of the springs, struts and shocks other than saying to try another brand? Because I missed it.
Brandon J
09-08-2006, 02:27 PM
Hmm, I see you like to dance with words. No problem. I can read through BS.
How exactly did you "help" Evan with the play in his assembly of the springs, struts and shocks other than saying to try another brand? Because I missed it.
How does one know what is a great working suspension? Well, read into how a properly balanced suspension behaves and how to select the correct compnents to make a good suspension work. Installing and riding in a good number of different suspension set-ups helps too. So, I shared relevant info. PLANNING is the key. After replying to Evan, I mentioned good planning. So, I gave positive feedback for him choosing to match his springs and shocks. Also, his choices now affects what he chooses to add later. No need to explain myself, those who use it use it. Those who don't use it don't.
If you want to point fingers to who did what this board isn't the place for it. You could always PM me if you want to talk further. If you are here to help and to ask for help, then do so. Let's keep this board useful.
I enjoy dancing too.
Just don't try to lead me...
fkong777
09-08-2006, 02:42 PM
It will be OK once your car set its weight on it. H&R is one of the shortest spec springs around.. It will not pop out once your car is sitting top of it. Even your control arms and sway bar will give it some tension to compress the strut slightly and hold them in place.
But if you really want to go Koni. I dont blame you. Koni is the best.
I have install a lot of suspension on different cars. once in a while the spring would be loose on the strut out of the car.. but once it is on it is in place.
Only time I ran into problems are with coilovers. with 12 KG/mm spring they dont compress much even with the weight of the car on it.. Without helper spring to hold them in place they can pop out if you ever get the chassis totally unloaded. Helper spring will keep it in place for those situation.
Coilover spring noise... ha ha.. that will probably drive you insane. But Coilover has its advantage that it handles like rail. Changes the entire dynamic of the car.. You will have to learn to drive your car all over again. Changing height and damper setting to balance your car is sweet. i also love that coilover giggle.. when it is fighting with the road surface for traction.
Dukes
09-08-2006, 02:45 PM
How does one know what is a great working suspension? Well, read into how a properly balanced suspension behaves and how to select the correct compnents to make a good suspension work. Installing and riding in a good number of different suspension set-ups helps too. So, I shared relevant info. PLANNING is the key. After replying to Evan, I mentioned good planning. So, I gave positive feedback for him choosing to match his springs and shocks. Also, his choices now affects what he chooses to add later. No need to explain myself, those who use it use it. Those who don't use it don't.
If you want to point fingers to who did what this board isn't the place for it. You could always PM me if you want to talk further. If you are here to help and to ask for help, then do so. Let's keep this board useful.
I see. Now you're a mod with a post count.
It's funny reading your "experienced" responses to my impression of KYB shocks mated to Eibach springs. Did you just pass over the multiple responses in this thread that read 'You'll love Konis'. They are no different than my "feels great" impression of KYBs.
You are so full of yourself. Get over it. There are some who are satisfied with their Koni's and there are some that are satisfied with the KYBs. That's the bottom line of the matter, PERIOD. There's no need to get into techno-babble to feel reassured that you got what you paid for.
You commented on my perceived lack of self esteem but I assure you I "feel great"!
Dukes
09-08-2006, 02:50 PM
I enjoy dancing too.
Just don't try to lead me...
I hope I didn't lead you. Just wanted to let you know I had a positive experience with the same product. Add to that the other reassuring posts from members saying that you will be just fine when you put the car on the ground. :)
Bill R.
09-08-2006, 05:12 PM
s stock springs and heights though. With no problems and the ride is equal to or better than oe. I'm surprised that i see so many variations in how people perceptions on the ride quality of these shocks. Bruno and some others said they were much too stiff and now i see one today that says they are kind of soft, whereas to my customers who are just looking for reasonably priced replacements for their stock suspension.. they are the goldilocks of shocks to them.. Just right. Since Kyb is the largest manufacturer of factory shocks for most automakers in the world i'd like to think that they know a little about suspension dynamics..
But then again all the cars that i install them on are stock height, stock springs
I hope I didn't lead you. Just wanted to let you know I had a positive experience with the same product. Add to that the other reassuring posts from members saying that you will be just fine when you put the car on the ground. :)
I'm in agreement. I'm sure they are fine struts and shocks.
The problem I'm describing only occurs when you have someone with little mechanical experience attempting to lower a car using mix and match parts, as opposed to a set of parts that was designed to work together.
Most of my problem was inexperience... a lot of the problem was due to using 3mm spring pads, as opposed to the stock thicker spring pads.
The rest of the problem is a difference in strut piston length that allows for a significant amount of play in the fully (and properly) assembled strut assembly.
Those of you who have been keeping up with this thread will have to wait a week to hear about my experience because some parts i was expecting today have not arrived.
When I get it all together, I'll give you my impression of before and after on my 540 as well as a comparison to my stock 525.
Cheers,
Evan
:p I see. You're looking for a response condusive to what I feel the suspension is doing around, say, turn #12. Well, I'm a spirited daily driver and only interested in the end game. "Rides great", I feel is very descriptive versus the 'KYB is not made for sports springs' rhetoric I see a lot. This simply is not true. Evidently, from my standpoint if you install everything correctly, have the right parts and tools, I don't see why you won't get good results out of these better than stock parts.
...And don't go there about having a BMW and money because I have both. :)
You MUST be more specific. KYB GR2s are not made for sport springs. Sure, they just MIGHT work, but you'll have a better time riding on OEM struts than using these as replacements. Proof in the Focus and the Impreza I've done done. KYB AGXs are a different story.
Brandon J
09-08-2006, 05:55 PM
Exactly the point about these KYBs and its use with shorter springs.
When you put the rear Konis on, do set them soft. Depending on your preferences and wheel/tire combo, the koni/H&R can get firm if set too hard. leave them at soft, or a little higher. The Konis do have good travel btw and that helps with the compliancy and keeping the wheels on the road. Also, do a search about bumpstops. You should cut the front and rear bumpstops. A little in the rear and a little more up front. A search might reveal different lengths to cut for different type bumpstops. Always cut a little as you can cut more later if needed.
SC David
09-08-2006, 06:27 PM
^ Did Evan buy and install Konis now, or am I missing something?
genphreak
09-08-2006, 07:09 PM
You know the only people taht decide how long the bumpstops should be is the spring manufacturer. We should not be postulating. One of you guys should ask Eibach or Sashs what length the frikkin things should be so we can stop having to guess, one wrong bumpstop can wreck a whole lot you know... :) Nick
I did not. I poured ether all over my car and burned it to the ground and I'm parting out whatever didn't burn
Dukes
09-08-2006, 08:39 PM
You know the only people taht decide how long the bumpstops should be is the spring manufacturer. We should not be postulating. One of you guys should ask Eibach or Sashs what length the frikkin things should be so we can stop having to guess, one wrong bumpstop can wreck a whole lot you know... :) Nick
That is a good point. I've researched what the bump stop length should be with Eibachs weeks before my purchase. I couldn't come up with anything definitive so I installed the bumpstops unmodified. Maybe I should ask Eibach.
Dukes
09-08-2006, 08:50 PM
You MUST be more specific. KYB GR2s are not made for sport springs. Sure, they just MIGHT work, but you'll have a better time riding on OEM struts than using these as replacements. Proof in the Focus and the Impreza I've done done. KYB AGXs are a different story.
You're right. But I did list the part numbers I used. :)
What happened in your Focus and Impreza with the GR-2s? Was it a negative long term affect or was it bad from the start. I want to know what to potentially look out for.
I based my buying decision from the plethora of positive reviews of GR-2s and Eibachs from TireRack reviews (http://www.tirerack.com/suspension/suspensioncomments_all.jsp?make=Eibach&model=Pro-Kit+Spring+Set&autoYear=1995&autoMake=BMW&autoModel=530i&autoModClar=&group=Pro-Kit%20Spring%20Set) and others. There is a 10 out of 10 review of GR-2s and Eibachs from a 2001 Focus owner there. Another Impreza with the same Eibach springs but AGX KYB shocks. No BMWs there though. I guess it's time for the first one. :)
angrypancake
09-08-2006, 09:32 PM
I did not. I poured ether all over my car and burned it to the ground and I'm parting out whatever didn't burn
what a waste of good ether. i hope you saved some :)
Bill R.
09-09-2006, 01:09 AM
be, since its main purpose is to prevent the strut from bottoming out and or to prevent coil bind from occuring on the spring. If when the strut is off the car before you install the spring onto the strut you first bolt the upper strut bearing assy. onto the strut shaft, then you compress the strut all the way by hand and while your holding it compressed have someone measure the distance between the upper and lower spring mounting plates, then you can also measure the clearance between the collar nut that holds the strut in and the bottom of the upper bearing. The distance there will show you the absolute bottom without a bumpstop.
Since you don't want the strut to bottom out when your driving. You leave at least a couple of inches of bumpstop higher than the distance you measured to keep that rod from coming all the way down.
You can also take that coil spring and compress it fully until its coil binding and measure how tall it is when the coils are touching each other.
Then approximate the thickness of the upper and lower spring rubber seats and add that to the compressed spring height . Then take the distance between the spring seats with the strut compressed and see how much you add for the spring height if any. IF none , meaning that when the strut is compressed all the way the spring still wouldn't coil bind then you just go by the measurement you took of the strut collar nut to upper bearing assy and calculate how tall the bumpstop should be from that.
IF coil bind occurs before this happens , then allow the strut to rise up just enough to equal the distance of the spring and seats just before coil bind occurs and take your measurement there to determine how tall the bumpstop should be.
It probably sounds confusing but its not that difficult except for the part where you compress the springs until coil bind A couple of really good spring compressors would be needed for that.
You know the only people taht decide how long the bumpstops should be is the spring manufacturer. We should not be postulating. One of you guys should ask Eibach or Sashs what length the frikkin things should be so we can stop having to guess, one wrong bumpstop can wreck a whole lot you know... :) Nick
genphreak
09-10-2006, 06:00 AM
Thanks Bill. UNfortunately when I did mine the borrowed, home made, 'Russian roulette' compressors I had did not afford me that luxury.
I appreciate the explanation- the difference is 2 inches... that I can remember- I thought that normally it was only one ;D
But I still reckon that spring manufacturers could specify such things since they are the ones that know all about it and know only too well that a lot of people are lowering their cars...
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.