I got a ticket (Pennsylvania) - Need advice.

[Jon K]

Let me start this out by saying I've never got a speeding ticket before. I am 21 years old and had a "careless driving" ticket when 17 for not using a turn signal to change lanes. Anyway, I got a ticket tonight for speeding which is not something I do over the norm of the whole like 70 - 75 on the PA turnpike every now and then.

11 PM or so:

I was travelling on Rt 309 this evening after dropping off a video at Block Buster - did maybe 50 mph tops on the way there (speed limit is 55) then on the way back I had the issue. I was driving and a car was up my ass as I made a left from the Block Buster parking lot onto RT 309. I just let him sit there on my bumper since the area is like a Walmart/Shopping type area and the speed limit is lower than normal. Once it was in the more rural area I got up to and only slightly over the speed limit prob ably about 65 mph or so since that's about the average speed of traffic on this 2 lane highway/road. Guy is now still on my ass, only now its at this speed and so I floor it again for not that long because I went from 5th to 3rd and took third to near redline (I can't take my car much over 6000 rpm because the stock clutch slips with my turbo) - I really just wanted this guy off my ass I hate when people tail me and so I got away from him yet he still accelerated pretty close to me I'd say. I am not sure how was I was going, but I know I couldn't have accelerated past what 3rd gear is capable of because i had a very bad misfire at higher rpm in 3rd gear and put it in 4th and started braking. Then about 6 or 10 secs later, police lights behind me and I get pulled over.



Officer asks me how fast I was going, I told him I wasn't honestly sure but it couldn't have been more than 75 - 85 or so but that I was honestly not very sure (because I was in 3rd gear but I didn't tell him that). The other guy was in a Mitsubishi 3000GT - I was NOT racing this car. He followed ME (I was ahead of him) the entire time up until when I moved over. The officer said I was lying when I told him that speed but I tried to get a word in that I was not claiming that actual speed, but it had to been near there and I had not looked to notice, I had no intention of going mind blowingly fast. He went to the other car and I was unsure of what they said to one another. The officer came back saying the other guy acknowledged he was going over 100. That didn't bother me too much because I had stopped accelerating, he very well could have gone over 100 - i wouldn't really know. He told me how this would be a great experience for everyone (or something to that effect) and went to his car. Comes back and gives the other guy whatever he gave him and guy drives off. Comes back to me saying he "clocked me" (exact words) several times, at 110 or something, which I know is false - I was NOT going that fast. He handed me my ticket - I explained that this is my first speeding ticket ever and that I had not used a turn signal when I was 17 and got a "careless driving" for that and the ticket was since void from my record - he said "maybe that will help you" but not much more as to what I should do.

I come home and I read the tickets, rather upset - I talked to my girlfriend and mother about it because I was upset that I had been accused of this speed that I most certainly did not travel at. So I sat down and looked over the ticket. It says:

106 mph in a 55 mph zone
Method of proof: Radar[ ] Clocked [ ] A.O.V. [ ] ESP [ ] Vascar [ ] Other [ X] - he chose other, and wrote either "tracked" or "tracker" - can't make it out.

Then below, it says like his badge info etc and name. It says Speed timing Devices Operator: His name. Miles followed " - ". Miles timed ".0877". Secs timed "2.96".

I don't understand how he could have "tracked" me which he implied was pacing me, even though I know for 100% sure that there was no car following within 1/4 mi, but I will give him the benefit of saying 1/8 mi on this highway that has dips and such that you could not possibly see from one point to another to time a car let alone in the dark. Secondly, I deny guilt of 106 mph, but even at the max speed I was traveling, it was for no longer than 10 or so seconds - how would he have identified the issue, caught up within range to use a pacing method, and timed me for 2.96 secs, when the whole ordeal was <10 secs of speeding.

Further more - when leaving I got his attention to let him know I was sorry, I wasn't lying by claiming ~75 - 85 mph, I plainly did not know. Then when leaving he told me how dangerous it is and how if my wheel fell off I'd be dead etc. He finished by saying something to the effect of "You're lucky you didn't have an accident with my wife and daughter driving home from a party right now or we'd have bigger problems than just this." Was that a threat?

I need advice guys. The ticket doesn't read well. I am here in Quakertown, PA for school and I don't know any lawyers (nor can I really afford one, but if I had to...) in the area or anything like that - I've never had this issue, I am not a frequent law breaker. Help.

Edit: Another detail is that under the defendent (me) it says Make: BMW Type: CP which i can only assume means coupe. Well he took the time to measure my window tint and tell me it's illegal, wouldn't he notice that there are another set of doors and that'd make it a sedan?

I have no problem admitting I did wrong - I was speeding, it was in result to the instigation by the other driver, and I failed to suppress frustration and just let him pass. I did not do the 106 mph and I feel that I am being accused of that unfairly.

Jon

PS: You guys know I am a resonsible driver. I've only done burn outs on our own property, never had a speeding ticket before... I don't know what to do about this.

[GoldenOne]

just take it too court....8 times outta 10 the cops never show up. Just have a court date set to like 4+months down the road. Im assuming there is no physical/written evidence(beside what he said on the ticket) to prove your speed, if so, 4 months gives plenty of time to forget about even pullin you over and the judge could throw out the case because of both factors (memory and no written evidence).

Thats my 2 cents...never gotten a ticket (yet, knocks on wood)

[Jehu]

I assume there's a place to check on the Ticket that you contest responsibility for the citation. They'll give you a date to go before a magistrate and you'll have a chance to explain your version of events but since you were evidently speeding excessively whatever the real number they will probably find you responsible so it may just be best to pay it and move on. Certainly you get a number of such violations before your license would be in jeopardy so what's the problem? You admit you were speeding and unless you can convincingly persuade the Court you weren't, which seems unlikely since another ticket was presumably issued to the other driver which would appear to support the Officer's claim, the court isn't just going to say;" Ohhhh okay sonny, we'll give you this one, you just keep her under the speed limit from now on." I have one speeding ticket which should drop off my record soon , maybe has already but even with that i would have had to get four more speeding tickets before the State would call me in for mandatory reeducation/ suspension. You should be still quite a way off from risking the loss of your license. Nobody likes having a blot but these go away eventually and you're still free to drive. If you spent all your money on the Turbo ask the court,if you go that route ,for a payment schedule to pay it over time in installments. Good luck.

[Jehu]

just take it too court....8 times outta 10 the cops never show up. Just have a court date set to like 4+months down the road. Im assuming there is no physical/written evidence(beside what he said on the ticket) to prove your speed, if so, 4 months gives plenty of time to forget about even pullin you over and the judge could throw out the case because of both factors (memory and no written evidence).

Thats my 2 cents...never gotten a ticket (yet, knocks on wood)

If this was a Municipal cop and not a State Trouper they Usually have a designated Officer to act as prosecutor, to present the case against you. State police more often would rather take their overtime/detail construction zone nap job than sit in court so if it was a Statey he may luck out going to court otherwise I'd say he has a better chance of winning the lottery.

[GoldenOne]

2 things also (Atleast in FL):

1:If youre 30+ mph over the speed limit the cop has the option to take you to jail

2:If he had written 110 in a 55, that would be a 2nd degree felony and mandatory jail time cuz you doubled the speed limit

[Jon K]

Its not a felony in PA. If he had written 110 on the ticket he'd have to show numbers for that. The ticket doesn't make sense, he couldn't have paced us from over 1/4 miles away, he didnt mark VASCAR on the ticket (timing device) and local police have no radar in PA.

[ryan roopnarine]

IANAL
He IS claiming to have paced you, up to you to prove him wrong.
Are the cats eyes standardized/do the roads in PA have hash marks on them that maybe you don't know about? Is the road in question ever monitored by aircraft? Perhaps he used the aircraft marks, if he did actually use anything at all. It sounds, however, as though he's using the other guy's admission as the determination of the violation.

PS
awww, **** it, let the shitheads come out.
either he used a table from marks, or he ********ted something into a table to get a number. i don't think you can just enter something into any vascar unit and get a number.

[rob101]

3rd and took third to near redline
you can't do 100 or 110 mph in 3rd gear
its impossible you can take that to the bank.
i think about 6000 rpm in 3rd is about 120ish kph
which is 75 mph jon. take him to court and swear black and blue you were in 3rd no matter what they say, its physically impossible to go that fast in 3rd gear!!!

[Jon K]

I know - and when I let off and put it in 4 it missfired and i braked and just stopped accelerating. i told the officer ~75 - 80 since i was in third (didnt tell him i was in third) and he said I was lying.

[rob101]

well dude i don't know about in america, but it sounds like the whole thing has some serious holes in it the kinds of things that would get a ticket thrown out if it went to court. after all he couldn't even see that you were in a sedan.
i doubt its even possible for you to do 110 mph in 4th gear.

[Jon K]

i know and i think thats pretty disturbing since he is apparently timing my car somehow or something and if he cannot tell that it has 4 doors how can he tell where it starts and stops whilst doing this alleged 100+ mph?

This sounds stupid but I love our country and everything but local stuff like this is really really upsetting - I am perhaps the most honest person ever, i've never had a ticket, and the guy is shafting me extremely hard.

[mattyb]

Did i miss something. was the other car not behind you? if so where were you tracked from , behind? how can that be possible with a vehicle between you and the police vehicle?

Im not sure about this one but I do know years ago i was traveling in front of a mate and we were both pulled over. it was alleged that we were both speeding and we were both shown the radar inside the police vehicle when I questioned the officer. it displayed somehting like 118km/h. we both payed our fines and copped it sweet. some years later I was told by a mate who was a police officer that you can only determine one car speed with one reading or one analysis method and never more than 1.

may be of some help I know its a differant country but logic is logic. who was "tracked first"? who was given a ticket first? maybe questions worth asking. legislation is available on the net in most countries im sure in yours. no need for an expensive representation, do your home work on the net and establish the legislation relevant to the act or whatever you guys call it over there.

present this argument pre-court to the prosecutor and see where they take it. they can only say no. if you dont your either going to court or paying the fine anyways.

also establish that if there was a device used in the determination of the offence then assess the calibration requirements and schedule, apply for these under the freedom of information act. As a party engaged in the defense of a charge brought by the state or " county" you are entitled to this information. Failure to supply this information will result in this being thrown out. ask for everty thinmg maybe they will get the shits just in having to supply it.

Regardless of how fast you were going you admitted speeding. im sure you were not doing 110 in a 55 but you have to cop it sweet anyway. unfortunatley you're guilty and its just one of those things in life that is learnt. im not preaching here because im sure in the opast when some fuka has been on my tail i've tromped it because of the frustration and because i had the power to do so.

If you need to prepare a document in legal fashion outling your case and circumstances and evidence and have no one to do it. pm me and give you some help with what I know. may help may not but better than doing nothing if your serious about it.

regards mattyB

But the logic is if someones on your ass just slow down, what can they do? pull over straight away and let em pass. its only ego that makes us wanna show the other guy whos boss. and this is humbly self confessed cause we have all done it.

[Paul in NZ]

I doubt its even possible for you to do 110 mph in 4th gear.
5948 rpm fourth gear in a 535 is 115 mph(dyno reading)

[rob101]

5948 rpm fourth gear in a 535 is 115 mph(dyno reading)
i think the 525i has shorter gearing. and he already said he didn't take it past 6000 for sure!

[guinness]

The last thing you want to do is pay the ticket. Have you looked into a prayer for justice?

[spyrot1]

when you told him you thought you were doing 75 to 80 mph, you just admitted breaking the law... Never admit anything! let him tell you what he thinks.

I advise getting a lawyer, for a ticket over 100 mph it could be an issue, especially since you admitted speeding!

The last speeding ticket i got was over 2 years ago, spoke to a traffic lawyer, he went to court for me and kept postponing the trial, 2 years later it went to court, i won part of the case and lost part of the case, but the lawyer pointed out that my conviction was post-dated to the day of the original court appearence. The ticket was off my driving record before it could be taken into account. I ended up paying $750 for the lawyer and $100 for the ticket in New York, but my insurance didn't change and my record is clean.

This lawyer was an ex-traffic judge, he knew all the tricks.

[Jon K]

I really cannot afford a layer - the numbers I hear of people paying are daunting.

I just went to the area I was pulled over at. The officer wrote "309 @ Pumping Station Road". I went past that intersection by about 1/4 mile turned around and drove back the way I had been going when pulled over - there are no white timing lines anywhere near the intersection (which I was not speeding thru mind you) or to the point where I stopped my car having been pulled over. So, he apparently timed me somehow by using the distance 0.0877 miles saying I covered that distance in 2.96 seconds, yet there is nothing on the road marking that distance, and under the "method used" section of the ticket, he didn't check off VASCAR (the timing device conventionally used) so how would he have timed me without two marks on the road, without VASCAR, up and over a hill with the road bending to the right? I don't understand what he means by "tracked" or "tracker" in his method of judging my speed.

[DaveVoorhis]

So, he apparently timed me somehow by using the distance 0.0877 miles saying I covered that distance in 2.96 seconds, yet there is nothing on the road marking that distance, and under the "method used" section of the ticket, he didn't check off VASCAR (the timing device conventionally used) so how would he have timed me without two marks on the road, without VASCAR, up and over a hill with the road bending to the right? I don't understand what he means by "tracked" or "tracker" in his method of judging my speed.
Just a thought, here: Do the cops in your town use Mitsubishi 3000GTs as ghost cars? I'm wondering if the guy on your ass was a cop, and that's how you were "tracked."

[Qube]

DEFINITELY get some representation. Vascar and 'Tracked' is one of the easiest tickets to beat. Oh, and definitely a mistake to say " told him I wasn't honestly sure but it couldn't have been more than 75 - 85 " heh.

Check this out: http://travel.3dresearch.com/prep1.html

[saj3n]

didn't get a chance to read the rest of the replies, in a slight hurry... Take it to court. I've been in instances where i've taken tickets to court. First thing they do is knock off 50% for showing up. So that's usually a given. Now if you provide reports also, of say a mechanic's statement dated a day or 2 before which states that your car was "locked" in 3rd gear and could not pass a certain MPH, the court would have to honor that. PA cops/troopers are a little crooked. A few other things I noticed. 1) Its 100% legal to have ANY amount of tint on your car, the fact that he measured it and stated it was "illegal" is false. (I know this cause I got pulled over in Jersey yesterday for tint and not front plate, cop told me that I should get registered in PA where they have NO tint laws). 2) There is no way that he could have clocked you, and the fact that he checked "other" provides him with no proof/record of you going that fast.

Only thing to do is take it to court, they'll either throw the case out when the cop doesn't show, you provide the information and they throw they case out, or they'll reduce the ticket, set up a payment plan, and it won't go on your record.

[Evan]

1 You broke the law and got caught.

2 You can't afford to NOT hire an attorney.

3 Luckily, the cop has very little evidence and you have a great driving record.

[Evan]

don't go to court without an attorney

[SnakeyesTx]

A Very little known fact about speeding citations. You can ask to see the laser-radar result from his dash since he has to fire it twice at you. Without it, you can contest to the court that you requested it, and were denied. I usually throw this in when I'm asked how fast I was going or when the officer starts giving me lip just because he's having a bad day.

I really don't care how good people are at judging speed and distance, but with a little over two seconds, I seriously doubt you could get an accurate reading unless he has an accelerometer scale burned into his cornea. Take it to court. 9 times out of 10 he won't even show up and you'll get dismissed. If he does, make his life a living hell. Trail by Jury. Waste his time and plead your case exactly like you explained it here. IF you can, even bring a copy of your driving record showing no offenses.

[Bill R.]

that , yes they do have tint laws since 99 in PA....Here (http://www.tintcenter.com/laws/PA/)




didn't get a chance to read the rest of the replies, in a slight hurry... Take it to court. I've been in instances where i've taken tickets to court. First thing they do is knock off 50% for showing up. So that's usually a given. Now if you provide reports also, of say a mechanic's statement dated a day or 2 before which states that your car was "locked" in 3rd gear and could not pass a certain MPH, the court would have to honor that. PA cops/troopers are a little crooked. A few other things I noticed. 1) Its 100% legal to have ANY amount of tint on your car, the fact that he measured it and stated it was "illegal" is false. (I know this cause I got pulled over in Jersey yesterday for tint and not front plate, cop told me that I should get registered in PA where they have NO tint laws). 2) There is no way that he could have clocked you, and the fact that he checked "other" provides him with no proof/record of you going that fast.

Only thing to do is take it to court, they'll either throw the case out when the cop doesn't show, you provide the information and they throw they case out, or they'll reduce the ticket, set up a payment plan, and it won't go on your record.

[tim s]

i was stopped 1 1/2 years ago. the cop was nice, but still issued a 78 in 55 ticket. i asked how many points it was & told him i was concerned about my insurance he told me to sign not guilty & he would reduce it at court.
when i got there he brought the judge into the waiting room i we aggreed to 5 over. but like i said he was nice about it.
i would get a lawyer since this is almost double it could keep you from future opportunities. my brother works for ups & if he gets one speeding ticket no matter how small they will can him. company policy.
it might seem expensive now but could save you problems later.
tim s.

[BillionPa]

well, jon said he shifted into 4th, got a misfire (i assume on shift) and hit the brakes, so whatver speed you are at, at 6200RPMs in 3rd, is the speed he was going.

[artemis626]

Hi,

Definitely go to court. Regardless, they will probably reduce the fine and/or knock off some of the speed. This ticket will have implications on your car insurace so I'd definitely fight it. Going to court is worth it if only to avoid getting points on your record. Generally, the effort of you going to court alone stands for something and will usually work in your favor. Good Luck from a fellow Pennsylvanian.

[Bill R.]

high rpm's in third gear then shifted to fourth. I don't know if he's using the standalone ignition and it that has a rev limiter at all or if he's using the motronic for ignition control. If the motronic does it still have the factory rpm limit or is it chipped? If Chipped does he have no rpm limit at all ? or did he get a chip with a limit. If he has not rpm limit at all on his ignition system then it will rev until the valves float in which case he will then get a bad misfire. On an m50 for all i know that could be 10,000 rpm, anybody want to tell me what speed that corresponds to in 3rd gear? He also stated that he briefly hit 4th gear then braked. Briefly on a turbo car right at the point of max boost can translate into a pretty quick mph gain. This is assuming his high rpm 3rd to 4th put him right into the middle of the torque and or hp peak for his motor with the boost he's running.




well, jon said he shifted into 4th, got a misfire (i assume on shift) and hit the brakes, so whatver speed you are at, at 6200RPMs in 3rd, is the speed he was going.

[aston_jag_tech]

Jon that really blows. This same situation happened to one of my friends back in high school. During night time driving home from a strip club a car behind him was a cop car literally on his bumper. Without a clue of who was behind him he sped up going way to fast on the highway and boom, blue and reds. CITED!!
...
I have had 1 low speed ticket which I fought and had dismissed when I went to court.
I had another on the freeway which was pretty funny. I was maybe 70-75mph and the cop was going a few mph slower so I passed him; over a time of like 5 minutes. I was going just a little bit faster than him!! But I was fined, fought it off my record.
I had another speeding ticket in Texas 90mph in a 75mph I think. I paid twice for the ticket to remove it from my record. About $350.

I wouldnt sweat an attorney. Are you from out of state??
Go to court and plead guilty and state how fast you were going. You ARE going to be cited and fined, **** happens to good people.
There may be a defensive driving course you might be able to attend for no more than $150. And your insurance might use this driving course as a deduction in your insurance policy ;) I attended one to remove a ticket off of my record.
Oh yeah, when you go to court wear dress shoes, black pants, button up collar shirt and comb your hair. First impressions are key!!.
Write what you are going to say, write what you did and what happened to give the judge a very acute description. Because I know that the officer that pulled you over did not give a really detailed description of the incident.
You just have to prepare yourself very professionally and you may slide out from under the guillotine.

Good luck!!

[Qube]

A little off color, but dibs on your turbo setup if you decide to plead guilty or go to court self-represented ;)

[saj3n]

i dont agree too much with this post.... That means that the $100 traffic ticket turned into an $850 traffic ticket. Don't these states do the same thing like most other states? You can take traffic school (online or offline) and have 1 ticket within 2 years removed from your record? If that's the case, $145 sounds a lot better to me than $850. (and no ticket on record)

[Evan]

Q, we've already parted out your car anticipating your wife forcing you to sell it for a Honda Odyssey

[saj3n]

Hmm strange, asked a cop about this here in philly today (took the op at the gas station), he stated that they no longer enforce the laws on tint, although it is stated that it must be more than 70%, since the percentage of tinted vheicles is way below that amount, tickets are rarely issued, and if they are, 90% of the time are dismissed.

[SharkmanBMW]

you can't do 100 or 110 mph in 3rd gear
its impossible you can take that to the bank.
i think about 6000 rpm in 3rd is about 120ish kph
which is 75 mph jon. take him to court and swear black and blue you were in 3rd no matter what they say, its physically impossible to go that fast in 3rd gear!!!


My old jetta VR6 hit 160k in 3rd... 100mph I don't know about your bimmer, but you saying you didn't know how fast you were truly going totally opens the door for the pig to **** you.

If you don't know, how can you deny 100? They know how to screw people, and for a ticket like that, he may show in court, it is a big one!

You need to be certain of your speed and actions, so they cannot make things up.

It is not even your word against his anymore, you admitted you didn't know.
busted, sorry dude.
Call and speak to a lawyer, it can't hurt or cost for some advice.

[SharkmanBMW]

Did i miss something. was the other car not behind you? if so where were you tracked from , behind? how can that be possible with a vehicle between you and the police vehicle?

Im not sure about this one but I do know years ago i was traveling in front of a mate and we were both pulled over. it was alleged that we were both speeding and we were both shown the radar inside the police vehicle when I questioned the officer. it displayed somehting like 118km/h. we both payed our fines and copped it sweet. some years later I was told by a mate who was a police officer that you can only determine one car speed with one reading or one analysis method and never more than 1.

may be of some help I know its a differant country but logic is logic. who was "tracked first"? who was given a ticket first? maybe questions worth asking. legislation is available on the net in most countries im sure in yours. no need for an expensive representation, do your home work on the net and establish the legislation relevant to the act or whatever you guys call it over there.

present this argument pre-court to the prosecutor and see where they take it. they can only say no. if you dont your either going to court or paying the fine anyways.

also establish that if there was a device used in the determination of the offence then assess the calibration requirements and schedule, apply for these under the freedom of information act. As a party engaged in the defense of a charge brought by the state or " county" you are entitled to this information. Failure to supply this information will result in this being thrown out. ask for everty thinmg maybe they will get the shits just in having to supply it.

Regardless of how fast you were going you admitted speeding. im sure you were not doing 110 in a 55 but you have to cop it sweet anyway. unfortunatley you're guilty and its just one of those things in life that is learnt. im not preaching here because im sure in the opast when some fuka has been on my tail i've tromped it because of the frustration and because i had the power to do so.

If you need to prepare a document in legal fashion outling your case and circumstances and evidence and have no one to do it. pm me and give you some help with what I know. may help may not but better than doing nothing if your serious about it.

regards mattyB

But the logic is if someones on your ass just slow down, what can they do? pull over straight away and let em pass. its only ego that makes us wanna show the other guy whos boss. and this is humbly self confessed cause we have all done it.


Heading to my cottage a few weeks ago, I was following a benz doing about 165kph, we hit a speed trap, the cop pulled up beside me, looked over, I ignored him and he pulled over the benz, who was the car he hit with radar.
He may have wanted me to pull over as well, but I know the law, and he never would have been able to make the charge stick to me, so I just kept driving while he cut in front of me and pulled over the benz... my heart was beating hard, but it all worked out!
Lesson...: never be the first car, never be the last car!

[Jon K]

Ok - I have more detailed information:

http://e34.digital7.com/Ticket/OverheadDiagram.jpg
That is where he clocked me versus where I stopped. I was doing approx 30 - 35 mph as he approached not sure as to if he was pulling me over or what. I stopped in that shoulder just before the driveway, and then ultimately he made us go up into the driveway for that Marine store called Highway Marine.

Another map with scale to confirm it was a total of about .39 miles from him that i pulled over:
http://e34.digital7.com/Ticket/OverHeadDiagramWithScale.jpg

He said he "timed" or "clocked me" several times. As I said, I went to the area today and there are no timing marks what so ever in the road. I looked on Google Earth to confirm. I am correct. I went and looked further up 309 and found example timing marks to show how clear and obvious they are:
http://e34.digital7.com/Ticket/TimingMarks.jpg
http://e34.digital7.com/Ticket/TmingMarks2.jpg
That shows the same timing marks NOT AT MY PULL OVER LOCATION from a more zoomed out POV to show them being obvious.
(This is about 2 - 2.5 miles north of where i was pulled over)

[Jon K]

Then I scrolled all the way back to 309 and Pumping Rd:
http://e34.digital7.com/Ticket/NoTimingMarks.jpg
No timing marks about 1000' BEFORE the intersection.

http://e34.digital7.com/Ticket/NoTimingMarks2.jpg
No timing marks about 1000' after...

http://e34.digital7.com/Ticket/NoTimingMarks3.jpg
Even more north... no marks.

http://e34.digital7.com/Ticket/NoTimingMarks4.jpg
Still no marks...

[Jon K]

http://e34.digital7.com/Ticket/NoTimingMarks5.jpg
And there you see where i pulled into the Highway Marine driveway. No marks throughout that entire stretch.

So what exactly did he time me with? Here is a picture of the ticket:
http://e34.digital7.com/Ticket/ticket1.jpg
Clearly shows that VASCAR is NOT in use... he checked "other" being "tracked" or "tracker"

Toward bottom you see that he did not pace me because miles followed is "-". He timed me for 0.0877 miles which is ~463'... for 2.96 seconds.


Further more - I want to analyze the distance in which he pulled me over. Assuming he did time me from the side of the road (though he did not check off VASCAR, the timing system) he said he did it "a few times", which took me 2.96secs according to what he said to me. So if he did it a "few times" lets say 3, thats about 9 secs of timing me at 106... that'd put me at .24 miles away from him, but I was basically stopped at about .39 miles away. So how in the world did he time me (or have visual?!) for .24 miles, then catch up to me in .15 miles and pull me over... again, I assume he was not following me as there was NO car behind me and he wrote miles followed: " - "

[Montreal525]

for the pig to **** you.

now that's not very nice....

[Jon K]

Just a thought, here: Do the cops in your town use Mitsubishi 3000GTs as ghost cars? I'm wondering if the guy on your ass was a cop, and that's how you were "tracked."


No - its a kid, he actually TRIED TO RACE ME BEFORE! At a light on 309 going the other way. I asked him if his 3000GT was VR4 at hte light and he said "No, you'll win this one" and I literally said "I am not go-" and he launched at the light while I just left it like normal. That was about 2 weeks ago. I think it was the same kid.

[Jon K]

high rpm's in third gear then shifted to fourth. I don't know if he's using the standalone ignition and it that has a rev limiter at all or if he's using the motronic for ignition control. If the motronic does it still have the factory rpm limit or is it chipped? If Chipped does he have no rpm limit at all ? or did he get a chip with a limit. If he has not rpm limit at all on his ignition system then it will rev until the valves float in which case he will then get a bad misfire. On an m50 for all i know that could be 10,000 rpm, anybody want to tell me what speed that corresponds to in 3rd gear? He also stated that he briefly hit 4th gear then braked. Briefly on a turbo car right at the point of max boost can translate into a pretty quick mph gain. This is assuming his high rpm 3rd to 4th put him right into the middle of the torque and or hp peak for his motor with the boost he's running.


Bill - I have standalone running, i have rev limit at 6800 soft 7000 hard cut... i had a misfire because the car is not tuned for that point of load i flooded the engine too rich. When I said I put it in 4th, I mean i put it in 4th and braked. Not put it in 4th and rode a little and braked, I mean I put it in 4th, engine braking, and braked.

[Jon K]

My old jetta VR6 hit 160k in 3rd... 100mph I don't know about your bimmer, but you saying you didn't know how fast you were truly going totally opens the door for the pig to **** you.

If you don't know, how can you deny 100? They know how to screw people, and for a ticket like that, he may show in court, it is a big one!

You need to be certain of your speed and actions, so they cannot make things up.

It is not even your word against his anymore, you admitted you didn't know.
busted, sorry dude.
Call and speak to a lawyer, it can't hurt or cost for some advice.

I know it wasnt that speed because I used a gear / rpm calculator. 3.23 diff with 255/40/17 rear tires with my gear ratios means my car is not capable of 90 until like 6500 or 6800 or something. I stopped accelerating before 6k due to a bad hickup - you guys are forgetting, its not like i can floor this car that high either, this isnt a good idea to bring up in court but the torque slips my clutch at these RPMS...

[Montreal525]

Pacing a car is the most difficult way to determine the speed of a car. No way you can do it in less than 3 seconds. You have to take in to account the perspective he has from behind you and where his markers are on the road, if he's not using his own speedometer. That's why police cruiser's speedometer's are precisely calibrated. Just ask him, when you go to court, how he managed to keep a lock on his markers or if he took the readouts on his speedometer. You'll get reasonnable doubt on that alone...


Note to Sharkman... The Surete du Quebec uses lasers now and the ones you see on the side window are multilane laser. Don't be fooled by the false sense of security the car in front of you provides... With a laser, especially a portable one, they can zap two, three cars back to back and pull everyone over. Remember, cops here are not obligated to show you the readouts.... so be careful...

[txp135]

I lived in Philadelphia for 2 plus years and heard about many crimes, but never witnessed any and was robbed by cops twice!

The first time I was driving 62mph(cruise control) in a 55 mph zone on I76 (outside of Philly, close by King of Prussia). I saw the cop half a mile ahead and slowed down. He pulled me over and told me I was driving 72mph. I explained to him that was impossible unless everyone else was speeding and my odometer was incorrect. He gave me a ticket that said "Failure to obey a properly working traffic control device."


The second time was in Central Philly. I had to make a right turn and after passing about 5 intersections that had a "no turns" sign. I finally saw a bunch of cars making right turns infront of me. Infront of me was a box van to I couldn't see the "no turns" sign until I was half way through the turn. I figured it was too late to back out of the turn and was pulled over and ticketed.

I think by now they should have cameras patrol cars because many of these "officers" need to be patrolled. It's rediculous how they can just do whatever they want sometimes to make quota. I've heard of two cops at a small town nearby that gave out tickets to almost every car for "parking more that 12 inches from the curb." Those cops didn't get away because too many people were violated.

[grave77]

Next time Jon, go to 55m/h make him stick on ur ass then with ur left foot lay it gently on the brakes so he will panic and think he's gona hit u.
also assume the worst ... maybe that time the cop will shut the F up.
congratualtions on ur first speeding ticket ... I had 5 big ones ... lots of small ones :P ... got cought lately speeding around 280Km/h :P ..........isn't that why we have bimmers ??

[Jon K]

Guys, the point here is that he wrote verbally "tracked" or "tracker" on the ticket, but when you look below it says "Miles followed: ' - ' " implying NO pace!

[Jehu]

So he's basically saying;"Take my word for it, from my experience as a Cop, he was speeding." and its no skin off his teeth if you skate.Challenge it then.

[632 Regal]

but it does say speed equip serial #

your not going to be happy if you represent yourself, maybe the tickets are old and dont have the new equipment on there to be checked off.

I hate when this happens to other people.

[saj3n]

I'd say don't stress it too much. I've gotten out of, and have had friends get out of tickets with MUCH less evidence than what you have.

[Jon K]

but it does say speed equip serial #

your not going to be happy if you represent yourself, maybe the tickets are old and dont have the new equipment on there to be checked off.

I hate when this happens to other people.

Jeff - i don't care if it has a serial number, there are no reference marks on the ground to use. There are speed sensors that you run over and there are painted lines across the road - neither were/are present.

[spyrot1]

I think the worst part was that you admitted going "no more then 75 to 80" to him. He can use that against you in court... you just admitted breaking the law. Never admit to anything, let him tell you first what he caught you at. No need to make his job easier.

If it was less then 25 mph above the posted speed limit, I would say go to court yourself and fight it (you have gathered plenty of evidience), but unless you have a good knowledge of the local laws and how the courts work there, I would strongly suggest a traffic lawyer. If you do go to court, and don't feel you can win, try to plea bargain for something below 25mph above posted speed limit.

I don't know how insurance rates are in Pennsalvania, but being 21 and with a 100mph ticket can't be good for your insurance rates.

[Jehu]

I forgot to consider when i suggested you could live with the ticket on your record that I live in a State,NH, that does not mandate i carry any insurance at all of any kind if i own my car outright as i do.I can always drop my insurance coverage as unwise as that may be, if i ever found myself faced with large premium increases due to tickets..I am insured to the max for everything as it is now but maybe this State's Ins. Laws are unique.

[Evan]

Jon, get an attorney, show him everything you've shown us, and go have your day in court.

If you choose to rep yourself you will regret it.

One 1992 E34: $3000
One Turbo: $1500
Showing up in court without Representation: $10,000
Comparing Penis Size with a Noob in a 3000GT: yet to be determined
(to be continued)

[Jon K]

Why would showing up to court cost me $10,000?

I wasn't racing this car.

[aston_jag_tech]

Jon, get an attorney, show him everything you've shown us, and go have your day in court.

If you choose to rep yourself you will regret it.

One 1992 E34: $3000
One Turbo: $1500
Showing up in court without Representation: $10,000
Comparing Penis Size with a Noob in a 3000GT: yet to be determined
(to be continued)

What are you saying?? Im confused.

[spyrot1]

What are the laws concerning excessive speeding in PA? You should find out before you make any decision whether to fight it or not, and whether to get a lawyer or not.

In NJ or NY I would automatically get a lawyer for that type of ticket. As those states really frown on that type of speeding. Not to mention the insurance companies...

[632 Regal]

Laser

[632 Regal]

if you lose, fines and insurance rates will easily eat up 10k.


Why would showing up to court cost me $10,000?

I wasn't racing this car.

[rob101]

I think the worst part was that you admitted going "no more then 75 to 80" to him. He can use that against you in court... you just admitted breaking the law. Never admit to anything, let him tell you first what he caught you at. No need to make his job easier.

oh right so 75=110
i don't get that POV at all how can he say, oh he admitted going 75 mph but he was going 110. that doesn't make much sense. perhaps its just better to goto court tell the truth and NOT get charged with doing 110 mph!
you will get a fine but it won't be the end of the world like it will be if you DID ACTUALLY do 110 mph

[spyrot1]

He admitted speeding, the speed does not matter. The speed limit was 55, right? He says "I was only doing 75..." the cop says no you weren't you were going 105!

He admitted breaking the law. All he can hope for is a reduction in the speed... Again, he admitted breaking the law... never admit to anything. The judge will always listen to the cop first, the cop will say i pulled him over for going 105, the driver stated he was only going 75 in a 55...

The driver incriminated himself.

Who do you think a judge would listen to now?

[Evan]

dude dont listen to anyone with any big ideas or theories or philosophies.. none of that applies in the parallel reality known as the american system of justice.

get three referrals from people you know for an honest attorney (ok everyone stop laughing)

go to legal aid and get a referral on your own for a local attorney familiar with traffic court (contact the philadelphia bar association and they'll tell you what to do)

send me $100 for the excellent advice

[Incantation]

if you can't afford a lawyer, check your university's law school (or the nearest one) and see if they have any students that would work for free (one of the local uni's here offer this service for training). the unfortunate thing about this of course is that you are dealing with someone inexperienced; on the other hand they may be very eager to fight for you.

another option would be to see if your community has a lawyer referral service. lawyers that work with the service usually give the first 30-60 minute consulation for free. so even if you can't afford to take one with you to court.. you can milk them for information.

[Jon K]

Ok but I am still failing to see where you people are getting $10,000 in fines!??! WTF! Its a $218 ticket, with a $25 fine for careless driving, it's 5 points on hte license with the judges discretion as to whether or not he gives me a 15 day suspension based on my driving record, which is absolutely perfect.

[MPD47]

if you lose, fines and insurance rates will easily eat up 10k.

Ummmm, no. Fines will be approx $300. Insurance rates would probably be increased $200-$250 per year, for 3 years. However Jon's insurance isnt effected by points, so that's irrelevant. Please, think before posting stupidity on the internet.

< From the jackass who's driving abstract is going on 4 pages. I've done this a few times. I've advised Jon to go talk with the DA, judging by his record it will likely be reduced to a moving violation or a failure to obey a traffic control device. $50-$150 in fines and between 0 and 2 points.

Oh yeah, and he doesnt need a lawyer to go in and talk with the DA. If he'll plead it down, great, if not he can either fight it at trial by himself or pickup a lawyer before that court date.

[Jon K]

Let's hope so. I am supposed to call this # tomorrow for the judge to talk about the hearing so I will be calling tomorrow and letting everyone know.

[Evan]

Why are you making such a huge deal out of $300 in fines?

You admitted to breaking the law and there's a price to pay for it... pay it and be done.

In MD and a lot of other states, a 106MPH speeding ticket is grounds for several tickets amounting to $2000. Along with the fines come 10 points and a double in your insurance premium.

If you can get it knocked down to 75MPH and one point and pay $200 and get off, you're the man. Go for it.

[632 Regal]

speaking of stupid, even PLPD will double with 4 insurance points. So who is not thinking before posting stupidity?


However Jon's insurance isnt effected by points, so that's irrelevant. Please, think before posting stupidity on the internet.

[Evan]

get him, Jeff

[MPD47]

get him, Jeff

Yes, go get me! Hahaha! Silly me!

Please, educate me, PLPD?

[632 Regal]

Public Liability and Property Damage is what is means, no coverage for your own vehicle
Please, educate me, PLPD?

[Jon K]

I searched google for "Pennsylvania Tracker speed" etc and I cannot tell what it is - is this laser or something?

[632 Regal]

some sort of gadget, has a serial number. At this point without talking to a traffic cop from PA I dont think you will find anything
I searched google for "Pennsylvania Tracker speed" etc and I cannot tell what it is - is this laser or something?

[Jon K]

If he lasered me, I really do not have faith in his accuracy while trying to laser two cars in the dark. the other guy admitted to doing 100+ i did not, therefore he apparently aimed at the other guy.

[632 Regal]

ps on the ticket it says "tracked" I can read cop, kinda like doctor but neater.
I searched google for "Pennsylvania Tracker speed" etc and I cannot tell what it is - is this laser or something?

[attack eagle]

man, never accellerate away from a tailgater. It's called "engaging in a contest of speed/acceleration" here. Instead slow to 5-10 mph under the maximum limit or even pull over and let the idiot by.

But I certainly would contest the ticket since it is apparent that he really was "making stuff up" to see what would stick.
Consider it a lesson learned though. You may even be able to plead guilty to a lesser speed (75 mph).

[632 Regal]

he could have nailed you when you pulled to the other lane as he already knew how fast that car was going, it really doesn't take very long for a lasar to get the numbers.

[Jon K]

in the dark, up a hill, around a bend...

[MPD47]

Public Liability and Property Damage is what is means, no coverage for your own vehicle
And according to Jon, he has a renewal contract with his agent, which provents an increase despite points. Which I find hard to believe, but I've seen stranger things happen.

[Jon K]

I got a ticket when I was 17 for not using a turn signal cop came down real real hard on me and gave me "careless driving" which is 3 pts. It went on my license, my insurance didn't change. Parents told me it was due to 'gaurrenteed renewal'

What are you talking about Public Liability and Property Damage?

[bimmer95]

yea im kinda in the same boat...

i just got one for goin 97 in a 65, 3 days ago... it was in my mom's e60 tho (e60 = amazingly easy to speed). it was at night on the way to visit a college in the boonies on a really smooth, wide open freeway, after i had just satisfied my hunger.

ive gotten the ticket for changing lanes w/o signaling and for no front plate. i just finished defensive driving to get those wiped off, and i did defensive driving to get a previous speeding ticket wiped off.

i dont know what to do for this one, cuz i want to keep a clean record, but im not sure of all my options, as the legal system in Texas is prolly a bit different.

I too am heeding the advice... just know that you are not alone!!

[632 Regal]

if thats the case than whats the big deal about? I would be getting tickets all the time if it wasnt for the insurance bills
And according to Jon, he has a renewal contract with his agent, which provents an increase despite points. Which I find hard to believe, but I've seen stranger things happen.

[632 Regal]

im talking ****

What are you talking about Public Liability and Property Damage?

[Evan]

if your insurance isnt going up what exactly is the big deal?

and the fines are only a couple hundred bucks... whats the big deal?

explain please

[632 Regal]

umm...
in the dark, up a hill, around a bend...
http://e34.digital7.com/Ticket/OverHeadDiagramWithScale.jpg
http://e34.digital7.com/Ticket/TimingMarks.jpg
http://e34.digital7.com/Ticket/TmingMarks2.jpg

[Jon K]

believe me the topology is HILLY.

[ryan roopnarine]

for ****'s sake
this thread is a full day's worth of jackassery in one sitting

I watch traffic courts in different venues and counties and states for entertainment. if i'm in a different town, and see that "administrative" hearings are going down, i'll go in and watch for an hour. the traffic court is the most accurate barometer of the government's feelings about the middle class that one can get. the **** one sees in traffic court would, at best, get prosecutors/ada's/magistrates disbarred if attempted in civil courts, and at worst, get them put on hit lists if bill clinton was still president .

everyone's advice, with the exception of those telling you to get a lawyer if you want to attempt to do anything about this, IS ****ING WRONG.

unless you've made an appointment to talk to the judge tomorrow, DO NOT TALK TO HIM TOMORROW, unless you absolutely must. unless time is of the absolute essence (<72 hour timeframe), and you choose not to hire a lawyer, there is only one (1) way you will come of this situation. hire the kit from the national motorists association for PA state. available here http://www.motorists.org. i don't know how fast they can get you one, if they can overnight it. it will cost you about $50 or so plus deposit. if it makes you feel more comfortable, give them a call and make sure they have PA state specific details. once you get the kit, the information in it will likely be WRONG, but it is the only way you will come out better by yourself. the PA state kit will show you which lawbooks, bar association publications, et cetera you will need to procure. i wrote them a 5 page memorandum about the errors in their kit WRT the state of florida last year, but they said they were going to be updating stuff around (10/05). i don't know if you go to a college or university, but if you go to a university, and it has a lawschool attached to it, you should make use of their likely free access to westlaw and such. you will need it. this is the only place to start. do NOT attempt to do anything you read on a newsgroup, anything you can buy off the internet, or anything that claims to be able to help you beat a traffic ticket.
DO NOT do anything that someone claims works in another state. DO not use foreign advice for doing something like this. you really seem to believe that a detection device is necessary for a violation to be determined. it is most certainly not. most traffic courts in the US give judicial notice (without mentioning it, of course) to law enforcement's ability to judge speed by eyesight, since it is assumed that they acquire the ability to do so by watching traffic all day. the "device" simply backs up their expert testimony. you have to establish a pattern of a willful disregard for the law for a traffic magistrate to find you "not guilty" by lack of adherance to a procedure in a manual or such. please, please disabuse yourself of the notion that the determination method written on your ticket matters that much. perhaps if you had a PA state bar card, it would matter. also, the point about the gearing is novel, and, if you had a bar card, might be a good point. it is merely a mitigating circumstance as far as you are concerned. please, please, please don't think i'm trying to be hard on you.

there's no point in asking a law enforcement official about what you should do. anything they will tell you will be a rationalization of why themselves, family members, friends, are completely different entities from mere civillians, and will begin with a variation on...."meet the cop 5 minutes before the trial, and fess up to what you did". these rules do not apply to them.

i know i'm bombastic, i know i'm an attention whore. i know i'm hyperbolic, i know that i don't capitalize my letters, i know what my grammar is poor when i type on internet message boards. i also know that i've never had to sit in a traffic court for more than about 5 minutes from the commencement of proceedings (in which i got a straight dismissal) despite having a last name starting with R. i got an asymptotically high SAT verbal score without having to study for it, and am not too unintelligent in real life, despite my persona here. i generally have to put in between 125-200 hours preparing for a traffic ticket, and type about 125 pages of motions, subpoenas, and declarations for each. i use about 1 ream of paper for each when i'm finished making photocopies. i use garamond as a font in my documents, and refer to myself as pro per, and have had it matter $hit WRT procedures--that happens when your content is good. i get pulled over once every 2-3 months, rarely get a ticket (because i don't break the law) and haven't had anything stick in 2 years (about when i started fighting tickets). i've shown you pretty much the only way you are going to get out of this without hiring a lawyer. up to you if you would like to take my advice.

please understand that everything i've said is in the spirit of the utmost of kindness and helpfulness as i can do for you over tcp/ip, from what i know of you in the 3+ years i've been here/known of you.

/likely going to be changing from engineering to lawyer school preparation major pretty soon.

[Evan]

ryan, this thread is highly informative.

you're highly verbose.

in fact, it took you 950 words to say "get an attorney"

[Jon K]

Ryan - summarize. Here is my current idea of what to do:

Call the judge as the officer said I do tomorrow, monday, at 9AM. See what they have to say and schedule hearing. Remove my tint for the fix it ticket to show compliance with them. Bring my parents to the hearing - the will find 0 record on my driving record. Maybe make a plea to have the offense lessened by saying I understand I am wrong and what I did was wrong - hope that they drop it to below 31+ over and I don't get license suspended for 15 days.

Other than that, I have a $218 ticket with $25 fine additional and I guess court fees - is that the most money I will be paying for this instance? People are being ridiculous saying there are thousands of dollars in fines I could get additional - i have never heard of that and my friend was doing 135 in a 55 got it dropped to a 90 in a 55 and took his suspension. Is this my best bet? I cannot afford a lawyer - there are no schools with a program here.

[ryan roopnarine]

better that i do it in 950 words

than sitting around hoping that somebody will do it for him in the next 15 posts (is it at about 85 now or so?)

haiku

i'm having some kinda java problem, so i can't open winword and check my post against your accusation.

[Jon K]

so is my idea my best bet

[Evan]

If you think you can't afford an attorney.. wait til you go to court without one for any 'important" matter. You'll rue the day your parents drank too much Natty Boh and came up with you.

[Gayle]

Jeez

And guys think women are emotional. This thread reached a pitch of hysteria pages ago!

Jon--I love ya. And I am sorry that the cop is screwing you. The world is just not fair. Our legal system is not fair either. We have the best justice system in the world and people still get wrongly accused and convicted every day. Get over it.

I consider this one of life's lessons in the school of hard knocks. It is up to you to come to conclusions about the lessons to be learned from this. I look forward to hearing the outcome. I am sure you will make the best of it somehow.

[Jon K]

Ok but the question remains - what the **** do I do? I cannot afford a lawyer - I am a college student a bmw driver/maintainer, unemployed, ok we get the picture. I ****ed up and yeah here I am. NOW WHAT.

[Gayle]

You have gotten a lot of advice. You will digest it and come up with a plan and it will either work or it won't. But it will be the best solution to your problem given your circumstances.

[ryan roopnarine]

Ryan - summarize. Here is my current idea of what to do:

Call the judge as the officer said I do tomorrow, monday, at 9AM. See what they have to say and schedule hearing. Remove my tint for the fix it ticket to show compliance with them. Bring my parents to the hearing - the will find 0 record on my driving record. Maybe make a plea to have the offense lessened by saying I understand I am wrong and what I did was wrong - hope that they drop it to below 31+ over and I don't get license suspended for 15 days.

Other than that, I have a $218 ticket with $25 fine additional and I guess court fees - is that the most money I will be paying for this instance? People are being ridiculous saying there are thousands of dollars in fines I could get additional - i have never heard of that and my friend was doing 135 in a 55 got it dropped to a 90 in a 55 and took his suspension. Is this my best bet? I cannot afford a lawyer - there are no schools with a program here.


ohkay.
lemme start by saying IANAL again. is the ticket for $218 for doing 10X MPH in a 55? that is pretty cheap. i didn't understand what you meant by "call the judge in the morning" if it is for a hearing, and you REALLY wanna go through with it, then i guess you can do it. i don't know what kind of timeframe PA operates in WRT you requesting a court date and the actual court date. does the "fix it ticket" require a court appearance?

here's a real live case study from the sunny gun-shine state. a 25mph over ticket on the interstate resulted in a $180 dollar citation in 03/2004(95 mph in 70). the driver had 1 at fault accident in 06/2003, for which they used their driving school privelidges for the 12 months--the 2003 ticket was first ticket person ever received on their license, and was for reckless driving. they had an at fault accident in 03/2001, so the first at fault accident didn't have the opportunity to "fall off". the person involved turned 21 in aug/04, was 17 when first accident happened. from the actuarial data available in 04, this person would pay about $700 more over the next 3 years than if they got the ticket. no one followed up on it though, so i estimate it would be more than that because of the hurricanes and such. i know that the data is kind of disjointed, but $700 was about right.


ps---please keep in mind that this was for a person still under their parent's insurance, with 4-5 cars insured on the same policy. anything less would probably be a good bit more expensive.

[Jon K]

Ticket is $218, addtl fine for "careless driving" ticket for $25, and I have to remove my tint and show the car I guess. This is what my tickets all say.

Here is what I am dealing with:

http://e34.digital7.com/Ticket/speed.jpg

[Jehu]

In the states in which i have contested moving violation citations you first appear before a magistrate.If then found responsible you are able to appeal before a Judge in open court which is Final.I have taken several tickets that far and the only times i prevailed were when the State Police failed to show up and present their case so the Judge dismissed them. I never even considered once getting a Lawyer but none of my tickets were that extra naughty variety that makes you look like a menace to society. Since you can't afford a lawyer then the only way you're going to even have a chance of getting anything done ,from having the speed brought down below that danger zone to getting it thrown out is to appear yourself. I've never heard of a Judge taking a phone call from a violator to chat about the citation. Judges float above the rest of us and live with impunity. You may be thinking of talking to a magistrate which still sounds very quaint but you are in the sticks.The best advice i can give you if you confer with an official is to be polite but firm in your insistence that you were not going as fast as the cops claims. You'll have to decide. From my experience ,claiming total innocence never works but admitting some guilt while trying to mitigate the degree rarely works either. They figure once you admit to any violation your word is poop anyway so why not take everything the law allows. After all its all about Revenue Enhancement not Public Safety.

[ryan roopnarine]

Ticket is $218, addtl fine for "careless driving" ticket for $25, and I have to remove my tint and show the car I guess. This is what my tickets all say.

Here is what I am dealing with:

http://e34.digital7.com/Ticket/speed.jpg
IANAL

that sounds about right for a $500 lawyer. it will probably be less than the likely insurance hike (if you are convicted), and keep the spectre of sr-22-esque notations from appearing around your record. looks like you have a lot at stake.

[ryan roopnarine]

i've thought of what i might do if i were in your situation. here's a sample i thought of. if capital one has sent you a card offer in the last month, take them up on it. cap one doesn't seem to offer cards with too much BS attached. their minimum line is about $500, IIRC. that should be most of what a traffic attorney will charge. start giving plasma, since you'll probably have at least 30 days between your election and the court date. if ya don't wanna do that, find another way to make $200 in a month. 700 should be about the most a traffic attorney will run you, though you can't quote me on that. where you get the 218+25+likely other court costs is up to you. if i were in your situation, i'd rather pay 500 + interest on that card for the next 2 yrs than run the risk of having my insurance reputation f'd up by that caliber of ticket, but that's just me.

[Jehu]

There's still no guarantee a traffic lawyer will get him off and he may be out double what he would if he went in with God as his witness.Courts love to waste peoples time and take their money while slapping lawyers down.

[jjdickm]

Go to a class to get it off you record. Go to the judge and tell him/her that you are guilty but if there is any sort of class offered for this you would opt to do that.

[mattyb]

thats amazing. forget anything i told u before an just pay the bastard. in OZ over that kind of violation you would have been before a judge tomorrow if not a criminal offence and possible jail in some states. man nothing to worry about there thats bloody chicken feed.

[rob101]

thats amazing. forget anything i told u before an just pay the bastard. in OZ over that kind of violation you would have been before a judge tomorrow if not a criminal offence and possible jail in some states. man nothing to worry about there thats bloody chicken feed.
yes quite odd, didn't you do 2x the speed limit? $200? wtf, we get a $200 fine for doing 20 kph over the speed limit. 2 offenses 20 kph and over in one year in queensland and you lose your licence, 45+ kph over = automatic disqualification and dangerous driving charge.

[ILoveMPower]

Sorry man... damnit! Thats why I hate 3rd gear!

I hit 120 in 4th once...

[Zeuk in Oz]

First an aside - what an amazing legal and traffic system you have over there. In NSW in Oz, you lose your licence if you are caught over 30 kph (19 mph) or more over the limit.

Jon, as someone who was in a similar situation with my last speeding ticket (in 1983 !), may I give you my opinion.

In my case I was doing perhaps 115-118 kph in a 110 zone, but I was booked for 128 kph. The hardest thing was realising that there was no point in taking it further, even though my pride wanted to pursue the matter to the end. I ended up walking away and just paid the fine.

It hurt like hell to swallow my pride but I don't regret it.

This does not say that this is what you should do, but obviously it must be considered as an option. Otherwise speaking with a lawyer might be worthwhile.

[Jon K]

Yeah I am calling the judge office today - hopefully he can talk or something, i'll be finding out.

I called - the ticket had the judges # on it and I called it but turns out its just the court house place - the lady was very helpful i explained to her that I never had a speeding ticket or had ever been in this instance dealing with court and that I was unsure of how to proceed. She told me my options of pleading guilty/not guilty. She said often times they'll amend the ticket if you come to court and they talk it over - so yeah I am going to go there tomorrow and plead not guilty and go from there. At the very least I hope with my perfect driving record and prompt response maybe the charge can be lowered.

[ryan roopnarine]

even if they "normally" reduce tickets, you still have a ticket that is far from the ordinary. even if you were going to just pay the thing, you'd still want to have an attorney available for the sentancing mentioned in your excerpt. if i were in your situation, i'd have no qualms hiring an attorney and paying him/her 5, 6, 700 and having them do absolutely nothing but showing up with me. it would probably be the only insurance you have against losing your license for 15 days, and, best case, the most likely way that you are going to get any speed reduction. i'm assuming that 5 pts is a significant number in PA if it is considered commensurate to having a license suspension...and you haven't even started to deal with insurance yet....

[Bill R.]

much younger and stupider i got one for 105 in a 35 zone, or 168kph in a 56kph. At the time the cop was real nice about it, told me that he had me at 125 but couldn't get a lock in his radar until i'd slowed down to 105, since i saw him at the same time that he saw me and was on the brakes as hard as i could. He wrote me my ticket, didn't haul me off to jail, i went to traffic survival school and paid something like 260.00 for the fine and got no points against my license. Of course this was a much smaller town and much more laid back. Today i can guarantee that i would go to jail for the same ticket on the same street now. No lawyers then, didn't go to court. Didn't even affect my insurance much.




even if they "normally" reduce tickets, you still have a ticket that is far from the ordinary. even if you were going to just pay the thing, you'd still want to have an attorney available for the sentancing mentioned in your excerpt. if i were in your situation, i'd have no qualms hiring an attorney and paying him/her 5, 6, 700 and having them do absolutely nothing but showing up with me. it would probably be the only insurance you have against losing your license for 15 days, and, best case, the most likely way that you are going to get any speed reduction. i'm assuming that 5 pts is a significant number in PA if it is considered commensurate to having a license suspension...and you haven't even started to deal with insurance yet....

[bimmerd00d]

Just be glad it's not Mills Lane.

http://www.barbanomedia.com/photos/mills360wx212h.jpg

[ryan roopnarine]

jon, if you have the number for the courthouse, call them up and ask them when the next "administrative" (or whatever they call traffic courts in PA) hearings are. take the day off of work, skip classes, et cetera, and watch one for a couple of hours, and then decide if you want to make a go of it without a lawyer. 'round here, the clients with attorneys go first, and the judge doesn't dare try to sentence them to the extent of the law, unless he is dead sure that dui was involved (and not charged). i went into one administrative hearing (for entertainment) in which a gentleman charged w/ multiple offences for basically swerving came into court with a midget lawyer. the local SO caught him pissing into a 2 litre bottle while driving. was swerving so much that someone called 911 on him. they all suspected he was drunk, he implied that he had a medical condition that required that he piss right then and there, and could not wait till he got to a nearby walmart. you could see the disdain in the judge's face, the absurdity of the defendant's claim, and the circuslike implications of bringing a midget to represent you. he got off very, very lightly in comparison to if he tried to do things pro se. i've gotten to the point where, if i need to go to court, i usually get to bypass the lawyer line, so i think i do OK in traffic court. let me put it like this....having a lawyer in your situation is like having an american express card in a rough foreign country. there are some things that they can do for you when, for all of your efforts, you are totally helpless--even if you could do those things for yourself in a normal situation....bad analogy/grammar, i know.

[Jon K]

Ryan - if I lost my license for 15 days, I think it serves me right. I am not against getting what I deserve, I just want to hopefully minimize it. I talked to the lady @ the courthouse on the phone. She assured me that they cannot amend the ticket to be something more than it is in print. Meaning, they can't tack on fines or anything more than what I've got in my hand. 5 points isn't THAT bad in PA - 11 points is where you have issues.

[Evan]

if it isn't bad why the huge post? i'm missing something

[Blitzkrieg Bob]

and fight it.

When I got popped for doing 120MPH+ and running away from the cops, they arrested me and gave me a bunch of tickets.

I went to court pointed out a whole bunch of errors on the tickets, time, date, different officers etc. and got the whole thing reduced to a dollar a ticket and driving school on Saturdays.

[632 Regal]

go to court and fight it.

tell the judge that the cop is lying and he has a grudge against you.

[kyleN20]

i was at the same speed (110mph) in the same speed zone (55mph), and i saw a cop coming at me. i punched it and never looked back, made a few turns and went directly home and put it in the garage. was it a safe decision? no, do i have any points ony my liscens? no, would i do it again? yes

[632 Regal]

LOL! I did something like this when I was 15. Took moms 455 buick skylark to the high school for my friends to register classes, while there picked up another friend and put his bike in the trunk. On the way back I learn the guy in front pulls out a open bottle of whiskey, guy in back pulls out a big bag of hash. Im freaking, look up theres a stop sign that theres NO WAY im going to stop plus there was a cop sitting at the sross street. I slide bay calmly at 30mph (25 zone) and he didnt notice for a few seconds that I ran the sign...long story short high speeds and drum brakes in a city environment and lots of evasive neighborhood turns arent the best. made it into the garage, closed it and ran in the house. took 4 minutes or so before a cop car blew through the stop sign infront of the house at 100+. Neighborhood was swarming with feds for quite a while. Had to sledge hammer the back wall of the garage back onto its foundation.

point is? I dont feel like working now.


i was at the same speed (110mph) in the same speed zone (55mph), and i saw a cop coming at me. i punched it and never looked back, made a few turns and went directly home and put it in the garage. was it a safe decision? no, do i have any points ony my liscens? no, would i do it again? yes

[Jon K]

News -

I called the police station today and talked to a very kind Sargeant there - told him what happened and asked what "tracker" is. He said its basically a glorified stop watch just like vascar except with a different name. He said they commonly use white lines painted on the ground. Sometimes he said they will set up cones or water jugs with known distances apart and time people. I told him there are no white lines on that road for 1.5 miles from where I was pulled over and he was very kind in saying "Yeah I think you should talk to the officer about it then". I was pleasantly surprised with how nice this guy was on the phone and it put me at ease that there is civility.

I went home and thought about this more - so there are no white lines and "tracker" is two-point timer like vascar - so the officer would have had to measure 463 feet out (0.0877 miles) and mark it. Thats a hell of a lot of didstance to mark, but hey. Then talking to a friend he pointed out that 463' is over 1.5 football fields, at night, uphill, and probably set back from the highway, that's a VERY long distance to attempt to time someone for. There's no chance in hell someone could see a wheel bumper cross a line and then cross another line totally the length of 1.5 foot ball fields, with accuracy, in the dark. So yeah I dunno.

On top of that, if he did have the eagle-eye ability to see precisely when i crossed a line a point (designated by something other than a painted white line) he still would not have been able to stop me with .38 miles of where he timed me, considering I would have traveled 1/4 mile by time he stopped me.

He also claimed to have clocked me "several times" and the fact that this "tracker" device is a timing device it further proves he is making this **** up - how do you time people several times through two points. This isn't a nascar circuit, I only passed once! And you cannot time someone multiple times because you need to know the distance between two points. There's no center divider on this road or anything and theres no writing on the ground saying "from thsi point to the next point is 250'..." So yeah, hrm.

[632 Regal]

tell the judge he is a lying *******.

[kyleN20]

its one of those split second decisions where its fight of flight (except fight is flight kinda). i was happy it worked out and got a cool story out of it. but it was definetly dangerous, and provided i had a skylark and not the e34 i would have been done or seriously injured

[632 Regal]

i think back and know I shouldnt have ran, was probably the (one of the) stupidest things I ever did...but what would have happened if I pulled over after blowing through a sign with a big bag of Hash and open bottle of whiskey? at 15 years old, in moms car, no license, registration or plates on the car... a calm 1/4 mile cruise turned into death defying 3 mile run for the boarder during rush hour.

[DigitalRelay]

News -

I called the police station today and talked to a very kind Sargeant there - told him what happened and asked what "tracker" is. He said its basically a glorified stop watch just like vascar except with a different name. He said they commonly use white lines painted on the ground. Sometimes he said they will set up cones or water jugs with known distances apart and time people. I told him there are no white lines on that road for 1.5 miles from where I was pulled over and he was very kind in saying "Yeah I think you should talk to the officer about it then". I was pleasantly surprised with how nice this guy was on the phone and it put me at ease that there is civility.

I went home and thought about this more - so there are no white lines and "tracker" is two-point timer like vascar - so the officer would have had to measure 463 feet out (0.0877 miles) and mark it. Thats a hell of a lot of didstance to mark, but hey. Then talking to a friend he pointed out that 463' is over 1.5 football fields, at night, uphill, and probably set back from the highway, that's a VERY long distance to attempt to time someone for. There's no chance in hell someone could see a wheel bumper cross a line and then cross another line totally the length of 1.5 foot ball fields, with accuracy, in the dark. So yeah I dunno.

On top of that, if he did have the eagle-eye ability to see precisely when i crossed a line a point (designated by something other than a painted white line) he still would not have been able to stop me with .38 miles of where he timed me, considering I would have traveled 1/4 mile by time he stopped me.

He also claimed to have clocked me "several times" and the fact that this "tracker" device is a timing device it further proves he is making this **** up - how do you time people several times through two points. This isn't a nascar circuit, I only passed once! And you cannot time someone multiple times because you need to know the distance between two points. There's no center divider on this road or anything and theres no writing on the ground saying "from thsi point to the next point is 250'..." So yeah, hrm.

I would organize and type all of your notes out and take them to court and fight the ticket. Continue to be courteous, as it sounds like you were on the phone. Sounds like the cop made a mistake or was lazy or both. You have every right, if not obligation, to tell your side of the story. Good luck.

[Jon K]

tell the judge he is a lying *******.


Jeff, can you ****ing stop?

[kyleN20]

same here, but i was racing, vrs two other cars, and when your doing 110 and hes doing 55 in the other direction and you blow by him and seem him slam his breaks you reply by slaming the gas and doing reckless ****, got me out of trouble but still very stupid and i nearly got me and my friend into a head on at 110 plus, and that spells disaster and a poaster for anti-street racing, luckly he cought none of us, but did pull over a car that looked identical too my buddies car and we all got off scott free. that story sread aboud highschool like wildfire, soon i was a legend speeding away from the cops at 150 plus. chalk one up to young and stupid +1

[632 Regal]

Raybestos QS, you bet!
Jeff, can you ****ing stop?

[Jon K]

Raybestos QS, you bet!

Let me rephrase the request

Please STFU.

[632 Regal]

FU Jon

[rufryder]

If you have a video camera, take a video of that road while driving (with white lines or not, anything else you can think of), also find out more info on the internet the way they are clocking the speed/time. Take the printouts, the video, etc.. Chances are you will not get it revoked (sorry to break it to you), however you CAN go there and tell the prosecutor that yes, you were speeding, however only around 65/70. Which is better than having your license suspended!
It's Guilty with lesser charge.

Best of luck. I've had similar experience in the past.

[Jeff N.]

Jon - you're a nice guy and I enjoy watching your exploits... And, this thread is entertaining in the same way the OJ chase was. But I digress.

..I'm confused.

- how can you not afford a traffic lawyer? In our area, there are lots of qualified traffic attorney's you can hire for a flat rate of about $400. Phili can't be any more expensive than Seattle.. The payoff of $400 vs. $225 is simple if you factor in the potential insurance lifts you're looking at if convicted.

- and if you say don't have or can't get the $400 -then I'm just more confused. I've watched you buy turbos, megasquirts, engines, fabricate this and that, add fancy interior upholsty..you name it. Each and all of which seem to cost more than $400.

Personally, I think you have a good shot a beating the ticket yourself. Your research looks pretty good and I think you can make a good case. Of course, there's always that "court surprise factor" you can't rule out and that's the ace-in-the-hole the lawyer provides.

Maybe you're just debating for the sake of debate.

None of this really makes any sense.

[ryan roopnarine]

....cut portion of jon's phonecall to constabulatory today...

jon, your heart is in the right place. i don't think i'm being presumptuous (sic?) when i say that you seem to bouncing between "take my punishment" and "find me not guilty, your honor". that happens. what i'm saying is that, what you did (almost doubling the speed limit given the circumstances) is an arrestable offence in many states. what may seem to you to be a valid procedural error will seem to be an attempt by a spoiled 21 year old brat grasping at straws, trying to get out of a ticket for 105 mph to a judge. an attorney, however, can strap your findings to a motion for dismissal, and basically have the da/judge ready and waiting on trial day with a plea bargain of 75-80 mph or so. if it was up to maybe 30 mph i'd say, yeah, go ahead and roll your own. if i got a 30 mph ticket in PA, i'd put that, along with other issues (there are ALWAYS other issues) onto my motion to dismiss. if i got a 32 mph ticket in PA, i'd have my lawyer put that onto a motion to dismiss. i don't know what some people here are smoking, really. i have an average court/ticket cost of $0 per alleged infraction. many people here who tell you to fight your 50mph over ticket yourself are satisfied if they go to court and get the prosecutor to "graciously" drop their 80 in a 65 down to "failure to obey device" (fashionable these days)for 100$ plus court costs plus the illusion that the insurance company disregards "pointless" violations. this definition of "fighting" a ticket is not really a win in my view.

i phrased this right the first time (earlier in the thread), wanted you to figure out on your own that the unit used to track you was vascar:

....."you really seem to believe that a detection device is necessary for a violation to be determined. it is most certainly not. most traffic courts in the US give judicial notice (without mentioning it, of course) to law enforcement's ability to judge speed by eyesight, since it is assumed that they acquire the ability to do so by watching traffic all day. the "device" simply backs up their expert testimony. you have to establish a pattern of a willful disregard for the law for a traffic magistrate to find you "not guilty" by lack of adherance to a procedure in a manual or such. please, please disabuse yourself of the notion that the determination method written on your ticket matters that much. perhaps if you had a PA state bar card, it would matter. also, the point about the gearing is novel, and, if you had a bar card, might be a good point. it is merely a mitigating circumstance as far as you are concerned. please, please, please don't think i'm trying to be hard on you."....

[Jon K]

Thanks guys - its not a matter of I can't "afford" the $500 lawyer, but the truth is... $500 + 225 in ticket + 50 court fees and I am over $750 in the hole. Versus if I just represent myself, tell the truth and maybe the judge will like me who knows - I am a pretty nice guy, who knows. Worst case, I have 5 pts, 15 day suspension and no biggy with the insurance and I only spent $225 + 25

[bahnstormer]

good luck =]

[632 Regal]

as time goes by the traffic cops memory will fade, whenever I get a ticket I dont say much of anything and try not to look him in the face for the day in court, when he forgets a lot, and didnt write the pertinant things down. These guys ticket hundreds of people a month and the chance of him remembering what took place like yesterday is almost non existant. thats of course if he goes to court at all.

[HDhandyman]

So what is this Jon, you're practice attempt at representing yourself in court? Do you know what a Magistrate is gonna think about a 21 year old "kid" who walks in without council and a 106 mph speeding ticket?...he's gonna think you've seen "Good Will Hunting" one too many times, and then he's gonna be pissed at the fact that you're prepared to take all the time in the world to defend yourself for an instance in which you've practically admitted guilt already. All the odds are stacked against you. This cop is definately showing up. What about the other guy who admitted to traveling in excess of 100?---What if his number is right before yours? What if his/her Honor puts 2 and 2 together, looks at testimony about illegal tint, etc., and decides that your young Bimmer driving ass is gonna fry?---I think you'd find that it would really suck to be without council.

The other thing I think that you're not giving consideration to is the fact that Magistrates/Judges have Barrister blood.---They come from a system where you pay to get off.---either you pay money to the lawyers who support the Judicial system, or you pay the court, plain and simple. The cost of your ticket is gonna pay for something the city/municipality/township/etc. wants, and they want your money. If you don't wanna pay them on principle, so be it, but you're still gonna have to shell out the bones.

Take Ryan's advice, get a lawyer.

[632 Regal]

haha... I LOVE that sig pic!

[Jon K]

I think you guys fail to see what my issue is. I am not going into this ticket trying to flip the judicial system upside down... i am not trying to get 0 points 0 fines I didn't do it ya got the wrong guy. I am going to go in there, plead not guilty, see if the cop is willing to make amends before a trial, if not, oh well - I go in the court maintain my plea of not guilty in that i did not do 106 mph and just provide a brief synopsis of why I do not believe he clocked me at 106 or if he did why it could be faulty. I am not saying the cop is a liar, I am not saying I want to cheat the system - if they will listen to me (what little I have to say! what maybe 45 words!?) then maybe I'll get a reduced ticket. If not, oh well I represented myself and my character.

I am 21 - I have driven a BMW since I was 17. I've had a high horsepower BMW since I was 19... I've never had a speeding ticket. Luck? No - it is very seldom I speed - I don't know why you guys are so hung up on a lawyer. If i were potentially going to jail yeah I'd get a lawyer - if they're going to take my license for 15 days for a speeding ticket, falsely accused of, then doesn't that just suck.

[632 Regal]

Jon, I have represented myself as said above, time blurrs memory. your court date probably wont be for at least a month if not 2 or more, if you didnt write "everything" down you will too forget the facts, what will the cop do? He dont remember. You have NOTHING to lose in your financial shape, much better than just paying the ticket and not participating in the show. If you dont try you lost it all, not only money but the chance to gain something!


I think you guys fail to see what my issue is. I am not going into this ticket trying to flip the judicial system upside down... i am not trying to get 0 points 0 fines I didn't do it ya got the wrong guy. I am going to go in there, plead not guilty, see if the cop is willing to make amends before a trial, if not, oh well - I go in the court maintain my plea of not guilty in that i did not do 106 mph and just provide a brief synopsis of why I do not believe he clocked me at 106 or if he did why it could be faulty. I am not saying the cop is a liar, I am not saying I want to cheat the system - if they will listen to me (what little I have to say! what maybe 45 words!?) then maybe I'll get a reduced ticket. If not, oh well I represented myself and my character.

I am 21 - I have driven a BMW since I was 17. I've had a high horsepower BMW since I was 19... I've never had a speeding ticket. Luck? No - it is very seldom I speed - I don't know why you guys are so hung up on a lawyer. If i were potentially going to jail yeah I'd get a lawyer - if they're going to take my license for 15 days for a speeding ticket, falsely accused of, then doesn't that just suck.

[Jon K]

Jon, I have represented myself as said above, time blurrs memory. your court date probably wont be for at least a month if not 2 or more, if you didnt write "everything" down you will too forget the facts, what will the cop do? He dont remember. You have NOTHING to lose in your financial shape, much better than just paying the ticket and not participating in the show. If you dont try you lost it all, not only money but the chance to gain something!

Well if I have read the law correctly, though I still have to read over this one section, it seems as though if I turn my plea in in person (versus mailing it) as not guilty, I get a "quick" assigned court date... though I am not positive. I read that they have 45 days to assign me a court date or it's dismissed.

[632 Regal]

Okay great! now what you do if thats the fact id call the court and tell them your going to be out of the country (at least 2 weeks before the date) and ask for a new date when you should have returned. dont call right away but a couple weeks before court. The longer it takes is better to your advantage (the cops memory). does any of this make sence?



Well if I have read the law correctly, though I still have to read over this one section, it seems as though if I turn my plea in in person (versus mailing it) as not guilty, I get a "quick" assigned court date... though I am not positive. I read that they have 45 days to assign me a court date or it's dismissed.

[Jon K]

It does make sense however I am not a liar ;)

trust me, 45 days is hard for them to schedule a hearing in. I am pretty sure thats the law. Jeff you like browsing the intarweb - find out for me! I live in PA.

[632 Regal]

lol, been here...by time he is in court he wont remember ****, if you can delay its to your benefit. reschule it, I paid out of my ass for **** when it actually went to court the cop had no clue and let it all go. why pay? retarted. I paid the attorney for **** cause the cop didnt even show, i was pissed man


It does make sense however I am not a liar ;)

trust me, 45 days is hard for them to schedule a hearing in. I am pretty sure thats the law. Jeff you like browsing the intarweb - find out for me! I live in PA.