Very Final Attempt before I give Up !!

[Happy_Go_Lucky]

OK, so this is the final attempt at this post, as I believe this horse is soon to be flogged to death. If I get no luck out of this, I might just part this beast out. Here goes .... one last time.
Symptoms: No power windows, no central locks, no interior lights (sunroof not fitted).
Checks done: All fuses have been check, re-checked, and verified a third time. F30, 31, 44, and 47 are all hot. Fusible link F99 (80A, below rear seat) has been checked, removed, refitted, and re-checked. No 50A (F0) fusible link found on front shock tower. Pins 4 and 5 on X332 (GM) meter out at less than 0.1 ohms. X294 (PPR) has no pin 8 connector, but pin 6 is hot. No noises or clicks are heard at any time, with ignition on or off, while pressing window button or not. System is purely dead.
Checks NOT done yet: I have not replaced GM, RM, or PPR with known good units.
As you can all imagine, driving a car with no window or locks is a mission. I have been trying to fix this for some time now, with no luck. I need solid guidlines (not the usual "check fuse 47" crap), or else this car might just get a match thrown to it.
That's it - this will not be posted by me again, except for replies to this post. Thanks for your patience.
Until now, a happy E34 (or is that E28 :D ) 535 driver.

I was originally looking at the wrong relay. The correct PPR does have a pin 8, and this is linked to pin 6. Both are hot.

[Jr ///M5]

Are you confirming voltages with a meter? It sure does sound like the fusible link, although you report that it has been replaced, have you double checked the voltages? Even if you have to start at the battery with the help of a Bentley, you should be able to track down the fray.

[winfred]

you can pop the cover off the rm and manually open/close stuff by squeezing the relays for what good that'll do if the unit has power, i can't remember the position but one of the relays by the rm/gm powers up both units, i've also seen problems occur under the rm/gm where a little water gets in the floor board and festers

[Happy_Go_Lucky]

you can pop the cover off the rm and manually open/close stuff by squeezing the relays for what good that'll do if the unit has power, i can't remember the position but one of the relays by the rm/gm powers up both units, i've also seen problems occur under the rm/gm where a little water gets in the floor board and festers

Well - I *did* say I would reply to this message, so here goes. A couple of days, plenty views, and only two replies. Thanks to both Jr ///M5 and winfred for their input. All voltages were checked with a meter, no problems found. I did pop the cover off the RM and this is what happened. Started systematically from one side manually closing relays. Nothing, until about halfway through, suddenly one window started to open. Then another. Then one door locked. After a while, I had 3 doors locked and 4 windows partially opened. Now the funny bit. Suddenly it all stopped again. I could press whatever relay I wanted, and nothing happened, and I'm back at square one - driving a car that will not lock (unless manually) and with 4 windows in various stages of open. I cannot close any windows, no matter how I try. I'll be off to a "scrap yard" (our term for a wreck yard, I guess) looking for a GM, RM and PPR to test, by way of elimination. I'll give feedback when next I have something to say on this, hopefully possitive. :(

[Espen]

I think you would have gotten more replies if you had a topic that described your problem!

I have had the same problem one time, i took out the Rm and GM and then disconnected the battery, did connected the + and - wires, so that all systems reset (shogun reset) installed the GM and RM, then connected the battery again, now it worked fine again.

A bit later I had to "play" alot with the lock knob on the drivers side to get the sentrallocking to work again.

[Paul in NZ]

what hapens if you manipulate the rm.It sounds as though when you popped of the lid and squeezed those relays as though you madea contact.There are fuses in that area too.I dont know what numbers they are.Have you "jumped" the fusible link?

[winfred]

sounds like it's a bad contact somewhere fairly close

[DanH]

Have you checked all of the ground wire connections too? I didn't see anything about that mentioned in your post.

Loose grounds can cause odd electrical behavior. There are a lot of ground connections, so find and inspect the ones that would be near were your problem is.

[fujioko]

I would start buy checking both sides of each fuse for voltage( using a DVM). You have probably already done this… however lets take it one more step….

Each time you confirm there is voltage present.. have an assistant try to operate one of the accessories that is not working. Watch the meter… if the voltage remains constant, then move to the next fuse. Make sure to check both sides of each fuse.

During this procedure you may discover the voltage drops off when the accessory is operated, then you have found a weak connection. This could be defective fuse, or a high resistance somewhere before the fuse.

Voltage can be present during a quick inspection because no current is being drawn. The key to a through inspection is to try and operate the accessory.. thus drawing current and exposing the weak link.

Best of luck

[pyro]

bad connection between batry and the gm?

[genphreak]

bad connection between batry and the gm?My money is on a break in the primary 80A circuit. For those that are not initiated; 3 circuits power the car- 2 for the electrics and 1 direct to the starter motor. The two we are concerned with here are the smaller ones, each of which employ fusible links within 12" of the battery, which is under the rear seat.

After removing the rear seat cushion (it lifts up with a heave under the front of each side)- often you need one foot in the footwell to give the right angle without twisting your spine! This was not meant for the average owner to do themselves and is part of the reason you can buy such a great car so cheap... On one side if the car is the battery unless you have a smaller engined e34. If the missing battery surprises you enough to make you wonder where they put it then it's time to take the car to a genuinely smart BMW indy for them to take care of your baby. On the other side has the General Module, BMW Module (which includes the Power locking Controller and is often known as RM) and some of the major fuses which do not require general checking.

You can remove the battery safety cover (carefully watch the wires to the seat microswitch) to find that each circuit is conected to the positive post on the battery (ie 3 wires- one massive black one for the starter motor/alternator and 2 red ones). The larger of these is the 80A circuit and the smaller the 50A circuit.

The 80A link is the circuit we are most liklely having trouble with as all the items described as problematic hang off it. Also experenced if this is the case is a problems with the OBC and radio losing power. Cabin lights will not function but if you turn the switch above the rear view mirror to On (not door) they will.

AFAIK on 535 there is no shock tower link. This is used in other e34s.

This was how my 80A link looked when I unwrapped it. Before removal, if I positioned it right it would still work until I turned on something that drew any real current.
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l164/genphreak/e3480AFusibleLink.jpg

It is quite typical that the 80A link breaks from age- the wires get stiff in the cold/time and once the battery has been replaced the 80A link might be under some physical stress as the wires can adopt several positions. The battery installer (understandably) not take care enough to see the link should not be placed under any bending stress which might cause fatigue of the fuse material should it become stretched between its rivets, (ie causing a hairline crack in the alloy). It might also be why later modules had the 80A link moved to the engine compartment (on the shock tower) where it could not catch on fire, is easily inspected and so on... (not that the original one did... it's just not ideal design wise when dealing with this much current).

This link might fail at some point later in the car's life, most likely when something like the wipers are activated as they will draw a lot of current. As was the case in my car, I noticed the odd weird problem that would mysterioulsy recover. These gremlins became more apparent (on occasion doing things like resetting the OBC time). In the end, operation of the wipers would be short lived before the whole circuit died, only to recover some minutes or hours later. I got to the battery to check the link, disconnected & secured the power connection away form the +ive post, then sliced the heat shrink wrap around the 80A link to inspect.

In this case I'd suggest doing this to see if yours was fractured like mine. I found manipulating the link by hand made the RM click so was able to blame the link quite early on.

Testing as Yaofeng points out is a sure way to isolate the issue also.

If it is not this, the problem will be a broken wire, connector or the GM. Run a suitably sized jumper wire over to the GM input main power input from the batter terminal and see if the problems disappear. If it is not this and not the GM, a relay as Bill R said. Relays understandably die in cars of this age, and they die intermittently also. They can be refurbished with contact cleaner, patience and a little ingenuity. Replacement is real easy but you have to get the right one.

BTW; the 50A link is positioned further down beside the base of the battery, really close to seat frame (another smart place to position a fuse making it most difficult to replace (you have to remove the battery for a start).

Best of luck, just jump every connection/link/wire until the circuit behaves itself as then you'll have isolated the troublesome part: All it takes is a few checks and leaving the back seat out of the car (and somewhere that the cat can't spray) for a week whilst you run the tests and perhaps drive around waiting for faults, if they are intermittent and can't be tested with the vehicle stationery. Best of luck, :) Nick

[Happy_Go_Lucky]

My money is on a break in the primary 80A circuit. For those that are not initiated; 3 circuits power the car- 2 for the electrics and 1 direct to the starter motor. The two we are concerned with here are the smaller ones, each of which employ fusible links within 12" of the battery, which is under the rear seat.

After removing the rear seat cushion (it lifts up with a heave under the front of each side)- often you need one foot in the footwell to give the right angle without twisting your spine! This was not meant for the average owner to do themselves and is part of the reason you can buy such a great car so cheap... On one side if the car is the battery unless you have a smaller engined e34. If the missing battery surprises you enough to make you wonder where they put it then it's time to take the car to a genuinely smart BMW indy for them to take care of your baby. On the other side has the General Module, BMW Module (which includes the Power locking Controller and is often known as RM) and some of the major fuses which do not require general checking.

You can remove the battery safety cover (carefully watch the wires to the seat microswitch) to find that each circuit is conected to the positive post on the battery (ie 3 wires- one massive black one for the starter motor/alternator and 2 red ones). The larger of these is the 80A circuit and the smaller the 50A circuit.

The 80A link is the circuit we are most liklely having trouble with as all the items described as problematic hang off it. Also experenced if this is the case is a problems with the OBC and radio losing power. Cabin lights will not function but if you turn the switch above the rear view mirror to On (not door) they will.

AFAIK on 535 there is no shock tower link. This is used in other e34s.

This was how my 80A link looked when I unwrapped it. Before removal, if I positioned it right it would still work until I turned on something that drew any real current.
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l164/genphreak/e3480AFusibleLink.jpg

It is quite typical that the 80A link breaks from age- the wires get stiff in the cold/time and once the battery has been replaced the 80A link might be under some physical stress as the wires can adopt several positions. The installer may not take care enough to see the link should not be placed under any bending stress. This causes fatigue of the fuse material as it can become stretched between its rivets, (ie hairline crack). It might also be why later modules had the 80A link moved to the shock tower where it could not catch on fire, not that the original one did... it's just not ideal design wise when dealing with this much current.

This link might fail at toms epoint later in the car's life, most often when something like the wipers are activated as they are a high draw item. As was the case in my car I noticed problems that would mysterioulsy recover. These gremlins became more apparent (resetting the OBC time). In the end, operation of the wipers would be short lived before the whole circuit died, only to recover some minutes or hours later. I got to the battery to check the link, disconnected & secured the power connection away form the +ive post, then sliced the heat shrink wrap around the 80A link to inspect.

In this case I'd suggest doing this to see if yours was fractured like mine. I found manipulating the link by hand made the RM click so was able to blame the link quite early on.

Testing as Yaofeng points out is a sure way to isolate the issue also.

If it is not this, the problem will be a broken wire, connector or the GM. Run a suitably sized jumper wire over to the GM input main power input from the batter terminal and see if the problems disappear. If it is not this and not the GM, a relay as Bill R said. Relays understandably die in cars of this age, and they die intermittently also. They can be refurbished with contact cleaner, patience and a little ingenuity. Replacement is real easy but you have to get the right one.

BTW; the 50A link is positioned further down beside the base of the battery, really close to seat frame (another smart place to position a fuse making it most difficult to replace (you have to remove the battery for a start).

Best of luck, just jump every connection/link/wire until the circuit behaves itself as then you'll have isolated the troublesome part: All it takes is a few checks and leaving the back seat out of the car (and somewhere that the cat can't spray) for a week whilst you run the tests and perhaps drive around waiting for faults, if they are intermittent and can't be tested with the vehicle stationery. Best of luck, :) Nick

Right ... I pulled the 80 amp fusible link and bridged it, just to be sure. (Battery is removed). Checked some resistances by doing the following. Completely emptied the rear distribution box (P91) of all fuses, modules and relays, and disconnected the Alarm Module. Connected ammeter between 80amp line (only) and ground. Found the following systematically.
Empty = 0 ohms, ie open circuit - which is good, no?
Only alarm Module = 1.7 M ohm (MO)
Only F30 (Drivers door c/l) = 3.4 MO
Only F31 (All other c/l) = 1.5 MO
F30 and F31 = 2.4 MO
Only F41 (Super Sound System) = 32 k ohm
Only F42 (Drivers seat) = 0.7 MO
Only F43 (Pass seat) = 1.1 MO

Now the funny bit ... 44,46,47 = 0 ohm (ie, no effect when inserting these fuses)

Added the relays one by one, no effect
Added modules one by one (except alarm) = no effect
Put EVERYTHING back = 0.9 M ohm

As I'm not an auto electrician, I don't know if these values are good or bad, except to say that open circuit with nothing connected is good. What concerns me is that the circuit stays open when putting in F44 thru 47.

Comments?

[genphreak]

Sounds like a way to go. Did you actually turn these items on? Otherwise it is only a few relays that will be activated (for power locking, window closure, OBC, sunroof and cabin lights (did they come on - did you have them switched to door?). Which fuses actually went hot when you installed them??

You may hnot have noticed any drain as you installed the fuses as the GM and RM will not activate those circuits they choose to. Just hope you remembered to turn the key switch to position 1 and 2. I think 1 will activate a lot of things but it may choose not to run the wipers and some other things until key position 2... these things need to be operational to draw any current. Just be sure to checking the right circuit when using some of the heavier drawing items.;) Nick

[Happy_Go_Lucky]

Sounds like a way to go. Did you actually turn these items on? Otherwise it is only a few relays that will be activated (for power locking, window closure, OBC, sunroof and cabin lights (did they come on - did you have them switched to door?). Which fuses actually went hot when you installed them??

You may hnot have noticed any drain as you installed the fuses as the GM and RM will not activate those circuits they choose to. Just hope you remembered to turn the key switch to position 1 and 2. I think 1 will activate a lot of things but it may choose not to run the wipers and some other things until key position 2... these things need to be operational to draw any current. Just be sure to checking the right circuit when using some of the heavier drawing items.;) Nick

Ok, so now I am convinced it's a bad connection somewhere on the rear distribution box which I cannot find.
I tried a good GM and RM with no luck.
I popped the cover off the Relay Module, and put in a good (this time :p ) bridge between socket pins 2 and 8 of the Power Protection Relay.
With the ignition on, and manually squeezing the various relays within the RM, I was able to open and close all windows, lock and unlock all doors.
Remove the bridge and re-insert the Power Protection Relay - nothing works. And yes, I have replaced the PPR with known good units.
So the *system* is working, but not as it should.
Next step?

[genphreak]

Have you checked all the following with your 'known good modules':

1. Are F30,31,32 and F41,42,43,44,46,47 all hot? They should be.
(Sorry just reread your first post- have you checked these others?)
2. Is Pin 14 in the diagnostic connector hot? (it should be)
3. Now with your good module, when you connect/disconnect the 80A cable, do you hear the PPR click loudly over in the GM/RM assembly? No? you should... this surely is your problem- you need power from the 80A line to the PPR (you say you ahve this but no pin 8- can you pop the cover off the relay and check/clean/observe it working?).
4. :D Have you cleaned/checked the battery terminals jic part of the problem is an oxide buildup?

[Happy_Go_Lucky]

Have you checked all the following with your 'known good modules':

1. Are F30,31,32 and F41,42,43,44,46,47 all hot? They should be.
(Sorry just reread your first post- have you checked these others?)
2. Is Pin 14 in the diagnostic connector hot? (it should be)
3. Now with your good module, when you connect/disconnect the 80A cable, do you hear the PPR click loudly over in the GM/RM assembly? No? you should... this surely is your problem- you need power from the 80A line to the PPR (you say you ahve this but no pin 8- can you pop the cover off the relay and check/clean/observe it working?).
4. :D Have you cleaned/checked the battery terminals jic part of the problem is an oxide buildup?

1. All fuses are hot.
2. Pin 14 diagnostic connector is hot. (Pin 15 reads around 8 vdc)
3. PPR does NOT click when 80a cable is pulled. But the connectors are hot (there IS a pin 8 - my mistake earlier. 8 is jumped with 6, and they're both hot). Numerous of the same type relays have been used, as it is fairly common on this car - thus eliminating the PPR as being suspect.
4. :p Bat terminals are good - no oxide.

Thanks for all your time and input, but .... :(

[Happy_Go_Lucky]

1. All fuses are hot.
2. Pin 14 diagnostic connector is hot. (Pin 15 reads around 8 vdc)
3. PPR does NOT click when 80a cable is pulled. But the connectors are hot (there IS a pin 8 - my mistake earlier. 8 is jumped with 6, and they're both hot). Numerous of the same type relays have been used, as it is fairly common on this car - thus eliminating the PPR as being suspect.
4. :p Bat terminals are good - no oxide.

Thanks for all your time and input, but .... :(

Something else I've just noticed ... don't know if it's related. The interior lights do not work ... none of them, except the right rear turns on when I switch ANY of the front switches on. Part of the problem, maybe?

[genphreak]

1. All fuses are hot.
2. Pin 14 diagnostic connector is hot. (Pin 15 reads around 8 vdc)
3. PPR does NOT click when 80a cable is pulled. But the connectors are hot (there IS a pin 8 - my mistake earlier. 8 is jumped with 6, and they're both hot). Numerous of the same type relays have been used, as it is fairly common on this car - thus eliminating the PPR as being suspect.
4. :p Bat terminals are good - no oxide.

Thanks for all your time and input, but .... :(Ahhh ok so 8 jumped to 6 and all is good? If not the RM is shot perhaps. I really think you have a module problem in that case. 2 bad RMs is not that unlikley, but can't you confirm their operation on your other car? BTW; In 1991 there was a change, perhaps affecting the RM (you might need to check the ETK).

What about the ground on the PPR? Why does it not click? Do you mean it is working but is silent? Surely not. :) Nick

[genphreak]

Ahhh ok so 8 jumped to 6 and all is good? If not the RM is shot perhaps. I really think you have a module problem in that case. 2 bad RMs is not that unlikley, but can't you confirm their operation on your other car? BTW; In 1991 there was a change, perhaps affecting the RM (you might need to check the ETK).

What about the ground on the PPR? Why does it not click? Do you mean it is working but is silent? Surely not. :) NickI tell you what if you can hang on Tomorrow I'll check mine and let you know. ... it is past time to sleep here and is cold and dark out there :(

[Happy_Go_Lucky]

Ahhh ok so 8 jumped to 6 and all is good? If not the RM is shot perhaps. I really think you have a module problem in that case. 2 bad RMs is not that unlikley, but can't you confirm their operation on your other car?

What about the ground on the PPR? Why does it not click? Do you mean it is working but is silent? :) Nick

The PPR is not working. I'll be off to check a few grounds on the PPR ;)

[genphreak]

Something else I've just noticed ... don't know if it's related. The interior lights do not work ... none of them, except the right rear turns on when I switch ANY of the front switches on. Part of the problem, maybe?You might have to close the doors first to activate/test them.
ie Put the cabin light switch in door position. Close all the doors then re-open to check operation. Close again and check delayed light fade works also.

[genphreak]

The PPR is not working. I'll be off to check a few grounds on the PPR ;)If so Winfred will be right H_G_L, you will need to thank him and make sure you read better next time! I'm off to bed so will chk the thread in the morning. Good luck :)

[genphreak]

The PPR is not working. I'll be off to check a few grounds on the PPR ;)I removed the PPR from my car to test the connections for you. (Mine works flawlesly)

The PPR socket has 9 connectors, 7 of which are used. Going off the numbers on the pins visible when you look directly at the socket pins 4,6 and 9 are hot. The hottest is 12.5V, the coolest 11.3V. Key is not in the barrel so nothing is on.

Interestingly, the cabin lights still work off the open doors ywhen relawith the PPR removed, but the light delay/fade does not happen.

8 (31 on the relay) was the ground.

Since I have pulled the relay, it is in my hand now. BMW/Hella item ADM12V 61.35 Part number 1 378 371 4RD005173-00.

The armature resistances are below JIC you ifnd them handy in Ohms:

AR- to AM- is 121K
31 to 30 is 119K
31 to DA is 1.7k
31 to AM+ 124K
31 to AM- 124K
30 to DA 123K
30 to AM+ 123K
AR+ AM- 122K
AR+ DA 125K
AR+ AM+ 121K
DA to AM+ 2k
DA to AM- 2k

I think that is all of them, (I haven't listed those that show no resistance)

Let us know how your tests go :) Nick

[Happy_Go_Lucky]

I removed the PPR from my car to test the connections for you. (Mine works flawlesly)

The PPR socket has 9 connectors, 7 of which are used. Going off the numbers on the pins visible when you look directly at the socket pins 4,6 and 9 are hot. The hottest is 12.5V, the coolest 11.3V. Key is not in the barrel so nothing is on.

Interestingly, the cabin lights still work off the open doors ywhen relawith the PPR removed, but the light delay/fade does not happen.

8 (31 on the relay) was the ground.

Since I have pulled the relay, it is in my hand now. BMW/Hella item ADM12V 61.35 Part number 1 378 371 4RD005173-00.

The armature resistances are below JIC you ifnd them handy in Ohms:

AR- to AM- is 121K
31 to 30 is 119K
31 to DA is 1.7k
31 to AM+ 124K
31 to AM- 124K
30 to DA 123K
30 to AM+ 123K
AR+ AM- 122K
AR+ DA 125K
AR+ AM+ 121K
DA to AM+ 2k
DA to AM- 2k

I think that is all of them, (I haven't listed those that show no resistance)

Let us know how your tests go :) Nick

You sure that's the PPR in your hand and not the wiper pressure relay? But I'll check that one anyway. On the previous post about the "PPR not working", what I meant was the unit is good, but does not click when powered on and off by removing and connecting the 80a line from the battery. But forward we go ... :D

[Happy_Go_Lucky]

I removed the PPR from my car to test the connections for you. (Mine works flawlesly)

The PPR socket has 9 connectors, 7 of which are used. Going off the numbers on the pins visible when you look directly at the socket pins 4,6 and 9 are hot. The hottest is 12.5V, the coolest 11.3V. Key is not in the barrel so nothing is on.

Interestingly, the cabin lights still work off the open doors ywhen relawith the PPR removed, but the light delay/fade does not happen.

8 (31 on the relay) was the ground.

Since I have pulled the relay, it is in my hand now. BMW/Hella item ADM12V 61.35 Part number 1 378 371 4RD005173-00.

The armature resistances are below JIC you ifnd them handy in Ohms:

AR- to AM- is 121K
31 to 30 is 119K
31 to DA is 1.7k
31 to AM+ 124K
31 to AM- 124K
30 to DA 123K
30 to AM+ 123K
AR+ AM- 122K
AR+ DA 125K
AR+ AM+ 121K
DA to AM+ 2k
DA to AM- 2k

I think that is all of them, (I haven't listed those that show no resistance)

Let us know how your tests go :) Nick

You think maybe I should start a new thread on this, with a different title, with comprehensive details of what's already been covered? Maybe a new titled thread will attract other input also? Wht do you think on this? (I'm desperate :( )

[Paul in NZ]

stick with this thread,people are reading its had over 500 views.Not ALL of us are electrical experts and obviously you have avery specific problem.Your light problem sure sounds weird.In my mind it must be related but I dont know that

[Happy_Go_Lucky]

stick with this thread,people are reading its had over 500 views.Not ALL of us are electrical experts and obviously you have avery specific problem.Your light problem sure sounds weird.In my mind it must be related but I dont know that

Good point, Paul. Thanks, will do. :)

[genphreak]

You think maybe I should start a new thread on this, with a different title, with comprehensive details of what's already been covered? Maybe a new titled thread will attract other input also? Wht do you think on this? (I'm desperate :( )This is the large black relay beside the GM/RM modules that clicks when I connect the 80A line. Sorry I just assumed it was the PPR- do you think it isn't? Is that part number not the PPR? Well either way, if you don't hear clicking, you are very close to the problem.

EDIT: Just checked the ETK. Part 61351378371 (PRESSURE ADJUSTING DEVICE MODUL) woops! Studying the diagrams to help you, but I can't find the PAD relay anywhere... but the PPR is there- one of the yellow ones I guess. Am happy to go check for voltages again there if it would help.

Still, does your PAD relay not click? If so, this is getting us very close. It is time to check the supply wiring between the PAD relay and the battery after checking there is power at each connector as it should be. Have you the circuit diagram?

As I said, jumping 12V to the right place (or alternately grounding the right link) will make the car behave immediately... Can/Have you verified that the GM, RM and PPR are all good?Just wondering if you might have spiked one of the modules by accident.... (unlikely unless you saw a spark)

No need to start a new thread however, people are with us :)

This is really not going to be complex if you can carefully test the items that are missing power. Are you getting the results I am? Is there anywhere you wnat me to test for power on mine? :) Nick

[Happy_Go_Lucky]

This is the large black relay beside the GM/RM modules that clicks when I connect the 80A line. Sorry I just assumed it was the PPR- do you think it isn't? Is that part number not the PPR? Well either way, if you don't hear clicking, you are very close to the problem.

EDIT: Just checked the ETK. Part 61351378371 (PRESSURE ADJUSTING DEVICE MODUL) woops! Studying the diagrams to help you, but I can't find the PAD relay anywhere... but the PPR is there- one of the yellow ones I guess. Am happy to go check for voltages again there if it would help.

Still, does your PAD relay not click? If so, this is getting us very close. It is time to check the supply wiring between the PAD relay and the battery after checking there is power at each connector as it should be. Have you the circuit diagram?

As I said, jumping 12V to the right place (or alternately grounding the right link) will make the car behave immediately... Can/Have you verified that the GM, RM and PPR are all good?Just wondering if you might have spiked one of the modules by accident.... (unlikely unless you saw a spark)

No need to start a new thread however, people are with us :)

This is really not going to be complex if you can carefully test the items that are missing power. Are you getting the results I am? Is there anywhere you wnat me to test for power on mine? :) Nick

1. Nick, one day when we eventually meet up, I need to buy you a beer. Thanks very much for all your time and effort on this.
2. My PAD does not click - I have checked and am certain there is a fault somewhere there. Removed it (when I was checkinf resistances, etc), put it back, it clicked. Sometimes it clicks, sometimes it don't. My voltages are different to yours though, on the PAD relay (the big black one).
3. I have no drawings or any references to the PAD relay. Checking the comprehensive wiring diagrams, there is no mention of it. I simply cannot find it in any of the circuits, so do not know how or if it is related / linked / connected.
4. Nick - remove your PAD relay and start your car. Check if windows, locks, interior lights, etc work and function normally without it.
5. Remove the PPR and jump pins 2 and 8. Turn ignition on and check the above also, with PAD and without it.
6. Again - thanks a million. ;)

[genphreak]

1. Nick, one day when we eventually meet up, I need to buy you a beer. Thanks very much for all your time and effort on this.
2. My PAD does not click - I have checked and am certain there is a fault somewhere there. Removed it (when I was checkinf resistances, etc), put it back, it clicked. Sometimes it clicks, sometimes it don't. My voltages are different to yours though, on the PAD relay (the big black one).
3. I have no drawings or any references to the PAD relay. Checking the comprehensive wiring diagrams, there is no mention of it. I simply cannot find it in any of the circuits, so do not know how or if it is related / linked / connected.
4. Nick - remove your PAD relay and start your car. Check if windows, locks, interior lights, etc work and function normally without it.
5. Remove the PPR and jump pins 2 and 8. Turn ignition on and check the above also, with PAD and without it.
6. Again - thanks a million. ;)Your voltages may be lower depending on your battery state- my battery was well-charged. I trickle feed it from a solar panel to prevent it from dying due to very occasional driving of the car.

They probably call the PAD relay something else. You sure it is not the PPR? I have not checked that. THE PAD relay is not mentioned anywhere in the Bently, and every 535 has one. 525 does not so perhaps Bently missed it off the diagrams (they use a common diagram for both cars).

I can tell you the delay on the interior/cabin lights didn't work when it was out. Will check the other stuff for you since my OBC is all reset again...

EDIT: Yes, the car starts and the windows work without the PAD relay in... It was warm also, so it must be using current when the car is shut-down- this seems to be strange. Beware H_G_L, maybe mine should NOT tick...

[Paul in NZ]

Nick if you describe to me exactly what you want to double check i will do it this weekend.I have a Digital MM so can check some voltages/resistances too.
also my car is manufactured exactly the same month as HGL Are S.A cars euro versions?

[Happy_Go_Lucky]

Nick if you describe to me exactly what you want to double check i will do it this weekend.I have a Digital MM so can check some voltages/resistances too.
also my car is manufactured exactly the same month as HGL Are S.A cars euro versions?

Well - it looks like I may have cracked it!! Couple of days of testing should confirm, but yesterday and today the windows and door locking is working again - but NOT the interior lights - still need to work on that one.
Basically pulled ALL the wiring in the rear apart and completely exposed the rear power distribution system. Checked all the supposed hot wires, then all the grounds, to find no faults. Well, sort of. As I pulled the harness apart that runs just under the mat infront of the rear seat, from the left side as it exits the firewall, across over the tunnel, to the side of the battery, I noticed a few splices. Pulled these apart for closer inspection, and found a single ground wire from the left spliced into two ground wires on the right - the junction had corroded to the point were all three wires had broken from the joint - all green and dingy looking. Cleaned it up, re-did all other splices as a matter of course and .... WHALA !! She works. Well, again, except for the lights inside :( but that I can live without for a few days.
Paul, and especially Nick - thanks again for all your time and help and everything else. Much appreciated. I'll post back in a few days just to let you know how it's going, and if I manage to fix the interior lights. Thanks again. Cheers, Viv. :D :D

[Paul in NZ]

from what you described your lights are a seperate issue,the cause may be similar tho
I didnt do anything just standing watching you and Nick do all the work!!

[Happy_Go_Lucky]

from what you described your lights are a seperate issue,the cause may be similar tho
I didnt do anything just standing watching you and Nick do all the work!!

The man from sunny SA returns, bearing good tidings! Fianlly, this is put to bed. A number of weeks ago (just before I disappeared), I stripped the harness under the rear mat in front of the rear seat, to find a connection with a broken earth wire. I repaired this junction, and the windows worked fine. The doors still popped up again when locking, but I've had that since I bought the car. I left town for a few weeks on business, and everything "seemed fine". Until Monday this week. Drivers side windows would go down, but not up. Then passenger side started. Until I had no windows, no locks, and no inside lights! Back to square one. That's when I started. I pulled "everything" out from under the back seat and mat. The mat was *soaked* to the point that I drained about 20 litres of water. I found a birds nest of connections, probably around 30 or 40, clipped them all off and re-did the lot. Many, if not most, were corroded to the point that wires were breaking off. I've just finnished the job, 3 days of joining wires and, I'm very happy to report, ALL MY ELECTRICS work as if new!!!! Man, what a fealing of satisfaction! Thanks to everybody for their input and help, no matter how small or "insignificant" it may seem. Even a few words of encouragement given are appreciated. I think that finally, at long last, my window, doors and light woes are gone! Thanks guys. Much obliged, and a great forum!!
I'll stay in touch - happy E34 motoring!

[632 Regal]

congrats! Now to fix the sunroof drain tube ;)

[mamilapon]

C'mon Genfreak, get out of death row!!

[Happy_Go_Lucky]

congrats! Now to fix the sunroof drain tube ;)

Yeah, if only I had a sunroof :D

[93 525 Paul]

The doors still popped up again when locking, but I've had that since I bought the car.

Hey HGL:
Thanks for staying with the problem and seeing it through to its resolution. Congratulations on finding and fixing it. The satisfaction of a job well done certainly is better than a long nagging "wonder what that was?" feeling had you walked away from the mess. Great job.
On our E34 the doors pop up once when locking only when the trunk is unlocked. Perhaps yours is unlocked or there is a (gasp) electrical problem in the central locking system somewhere. Possibly in the trunk lock.
Good luck.
By the way, I'm assuming the old problem wiring joints weren't soldered...
Best,
Paul

[Happy_Go_Lucky]

Hey HGL:

On our E34 the doors pop up once when locking only when the trunk is unlocked. Perhaps yours is unlocked or there is a (gasp) electrical problem in the central locking system somewhere. Possibly in the trunk lock.
Good luck.
By the way, I'm assuming the old problem wiring joints weren't soldered...
Best,
Paul

Hey there Paul. Mine *used* to pop back up, but since re-doing the wiring connections, that is no more. The locks work like they should, as do the windows and interior lights. Everything is back to the way BMW intended it.

All connections were simply bared wires, twisted and crimped with terminals, then covered in heat-shrink. I never saw any that were soldered. (Remember, this car was built in SA ;) ). The culprit joints were not under the mat (I had done those on the first attempt) but rather pushed through a hole on the firewall under the left rear seat. Basically, lift the rear power distribution box and look deep into the bottom corner. All the terminations were bundled and pushed into that hole. Very difficult to get to, hence *ignored* on the first attempt. My new motto, when attempting a repair job, do it right the first time :D . Satisfaction reigns supreme. Thanks again, guys!

[bsell]

If you don't have a sunroof, the water must be coming up through the floor panel somewhere.

Looks like it is time to tear out the back seat and carpets again.:(

Brian

[genphreak]

Yes, I wonder why you would get water under there... but H_G_L, congratulations I am sure glad you made it through. Your perserverence should be rewarded.

One thing though- is this mat of connections you speak of- where you foudn all your coroded joints- all underneath the GM box itself?

Is the wet mat you speak of the rubber-topped insulation pad you see when you lift up the rear seat? If it was wet in there, I would have thought it would be smelly with mould and that perhaps you could have damp carpet also... unless the water is coming through a hole in the floor pan... I've never heard or seen of an e34 do this?

Can you please help us understand the root causes? It could help others to avoid the problems you've faced...

:) Nick