Please oh please, help me get my car running! [Archive]

Antrieb

10-30-2006, 10:04 PM

Some of you may be following my thread on bimmerforums http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=608580
I posted in there too but I could always use some more suggestions.

Cliff notes, lol:

got a new 530!

$hit.. but on the way home.. there was oil in coolant and coolant in the oil

why didn't the owner tell me :(

oh wait.. it's not that bad.. we'll make it a nice project :)

got the parts.. putting it together :D

$hit.. won't start :(

we'll figure it out.. probably something small

damnit.. still can't figure it out..

Running out of time .. getting colder...

Basically the car keeps turning over and not starting, obviously. I've checked everything under the sun. Theoretically, it should start if it has fuel, oxygen, spark, and compression. Fuel pressure is good, brand new OEM spark plugs, no vaccum leaks, getting air, coils were tested and give great spark, compression is 140-150 and holding in all cylinders.

Everything is connected, full coolant, new oil, all gaskets from the heads up are new. Only thing not connected is one side of the exhaust.

Please help!

Antrieb

10-30-2006, 10:46 PM

So, is there some giant on/off switch I forgot to flip on?

BlueM60

10-30-2006, 10:59 PM

Ok, I havent really been involved in this thread so Im not sure of what all has been reccomended...

-Fuel yousaid you have pressure but is it being injected into the cylinders? EWS or CODE in the OBC will still allow fuel pressure to be present but wont allow the injectors to pulse, thereby cutting fuel to the cylinders.

-Main Relay, Im sure you have checked this already, but depending on what pin on the relay goes bad, you can still have fuel pump but the DME will not be powered. A simple way to test for that is to see id the "check engine" light does a bulb check when you turn the key on.

-Crank and Cam signals, obviously you have to have both of these in order for the DME to determine fuel and spark timing.

-Fault codes, is the DME throwing any fault codes that may help simplify the process of diagnosis?

I hope maybe something here helps, good luck on the progress.

-Ben

Antrieb

10-30-2006, 11:08 PM

I'll go down your list of recomendations...

The fuel is definately getting into the combustion chamber. The spark plugs are wet when we take them out.

The main relay looked good but we replaced it anyway. The fuel pumps are working too.

The crank sensor is brand new, and the cam sensor check out okay.

When we checked for fault codes, the "check engine" light just keeps flashing forever. I believe that means that there are no codes, but I'm not sure. Is there some kind of code reader I should buy?

billb

10-30-2006, 11:21 PM

i.e. wrong cam sensor plugged in the wrong port, cps sensor plugged in the wrong place? Sounds like you're just not getting fire to the plugs for some reason.

Antrieb

10-30-2006, 11:32 PM

i.e. wrong cam sensor plugged in the wrong port, cps sensor plugged in the wrong place? Sounds like you're just not getting fire to the plugs for some reason.
Everything is plugged into where it should be, but I was wondering about it being gummed up or something. I will check that tomorrow.

Ferret

10-31-2006, 04:57 AM

Question!

You've not managed to accidentally cross the spark plug leads over onto the wrong heads? (Just a thought - not sure if it's actually possible or not - just tossing crazy ideas in)

Does it splutter at all?

mamilapon

10-31-2006, 05:55 AM

How about the timing gears, did you align them spot on?

Ferret

10-31-2006, 06:46 AM

How about the timing gears, did you align them spot on?

Good question - when rebuilding mine for the first time I got one of the cams out by just a tooth and it wouldnt run properly - would hardly start at all. Two teeth and I think it'd just sit there smiling at you refusing to start.

Ross

10-31-2006, 08:30 AM

Yep, check cam timing. Does it turn over real fast?

Antrieb

10-31-2006, 11:41 AM

There is no way we crossed the ignition coils, never un-did the wiring there.

The first time we put the car back together, the timing was definatly off. We got the proper timing tools for that engine and re-did it and found that we were infact one tooth off. Now we should be exactly perfect. If all else fails, I will take it apart for the 4th time to once again check the timing.

Unless, is there any tool that I can buy to check if the timing is correct?

Fetch

10-31-2006, 11:51 AM

I've been following your 'rebuild'....awesome man...but I've got no ideas for you, sorry :(

acidfire52

10-31-2006, 11:55 AM

When we checked for fault codes, the "check engine" light just keeps flashing forever. I believe that means that there are no codes, but I'm not sure. Is there some kind of code reader I should buy?

Should it not flash 1444 at you? Thought I read somewhere that you had to do something to set that code in there.

Off of BMWE34.net:
Clear the codes
1. Read the codes. At the end, make sure that the 1000 code (short blink and nothing) is present then depress the accelerator for at least 10 seconds.
2. To check, depress the accelerator pedal 5 times within 5 sec and make sure that the 1444 code (no fault stored) is present.

Have you tried that?

Antrieb

10-31-2006, 12:04 PM

It did flash 1444 at one point, but now it just keeps flashing. We didn't depress for 10 seconds after we were done though.

CloudNine

10-31-2006, 12:12 PM

Are all ground wires in place?

Dave M

10-31-2006, 12:38 PM

You stated that the cam position sensor "checks out". On an M60, is there a meal tag on a cam to send the signal to the sensor? I had the same issue on my M50, when I "sigh".....installed the metal ring on the cam upside down.

Needless to say, it wouldn't start, I checked fuel, spark, air, scratched my head utill I found my F' up

Dave M

632 Regal

10-31-2006, 01:00 PM

there are 2 connectors at the front pass side of the engine that can swap easily, same connectors and location, something to look into?

Good luck

stu1

10-31-2006, 02:52 PM

Here's some of the things to check I can think of off the top of my head.

A. A compression test.

B. Check the static timing again; not only that the crank and camshaft pulleys are where they should be at tdc on #1, but the the camshaft is in the right place.

C. Get a multi-meter on the LT side of the coil. Ideally something that can read frequency, or failing that set to an AC scale and crank engine (make sure meter is over-volts protected). Ideally an oscilloscope.

D. Multi-meter on the injectors. Again ideally a scope with the LT of the coil on one channel and an injector on another so I could see the relationship between the coil and injectors (are they two banks of 3 on yours or individual?).

Stu.

mamilapon

10-31-2006, 03:51 PM

Back to basics. Pull a plug out from each bank, ground them and crank engine. Any spark?

Antrieb

10-31-2006, 04:00 PM

Back to basics. Pull a plug out from each bank, ground them and crank engine. Any spark?
Yessss. And Yes to everything else thats been posted so far.

I'm at the point where I'll just take it to the dealer and have them tell me whats wrong.

Antrieb

11-01-2006, 09:12 AM

My stepfather talked to one of his friends and he had a suggestion for me regarding the timing.

Set the crank to TDC, lock in the flywheel, lock in the cams on both sides, take off the cam gears on both sides, take out the flywheel lock and turn the engine one revolution in the normal direction. He said this will reset the timing, but I don't see how it will do anything. Is it worth a try?

Ross

11-01-2006, 09:34 AM

He is assuming you are 180 off. Keep in mind this is an "interference" motor and spinning the motor aroun with valves hanging open isn't a good idea. Stick with the proper procedure.

Antrieb

11-01-2006, 09:56 AM

He is assuming you are 180 off. Keep in mind this is an "interference" motor and spinning the motor aroun with valves hanging open isn't a good idea. Stick with the proper procedure.
So how do I do this the correct way?

Ferret

11-01-2006, 10:50 AM

You've not accidentally turned a cam through 90 or 180 degrees have you - it's very easy to accidentally put the sprocket back on wrong?
It'd be good for someone else here to post a picture with cams set to TDC so you could compare.

It /has/ to be a timing issue, if you're getting fuel and a spark - the only thing it could really be is timing...

Ferret

11-01-2006, 10:51 AM

So how do I do this the correct way?

To quote the queen (et al) :

'Off with 'er 'ead!'

632 Regal

11-01-2006, 11:05 AM

agree, cam sensor is reading 180 off, firing on the exhaust/intake stroke
You've not accidentally turned a cam through 90 or 180 degrees have you - it's very easy to accidentally put the sprocket back on wrong?
It'd be good for someone else here to post a picture with cams set to TDC so you could compare.

It /has/ to be a timing issue, if you're getting fuel and a spark - the only thing it could really be is timing...

Ferret

11-01-2006, 11:17 AM

agree, cam sensor is reading 180 off, firing on the exhaust/intake stroke

Also : fuel injectors firing when the intake is closed is also the only thing that will cause a car to turn over and not fire/backfire. (Would explain wet plugs as well)

Otherwise I'd be expecting fireworks and bits of catalyser to come flying out of your exhaust

Antrieb

11-01-2006, 11:19 AM

Oh no, I can't re-time it withought taking the heads off?

Ferret

11-01-2006, 11:26 AM

Oh no, I can't re-time it withought taking the heads off?

You might be lucky - you might have just put the cam sensor plate on the wrong way up.

Antrieb

11-01-2006, 11:28 AM

You might be lucky - you might have just put the cam sensor plate on the wrong way up.
Ok hopefully. I will take it all apart and post up lots of pictures of everything.

Ferret

11-01-2006, 11:34 AM

Ok hopefully. I will take it all apart and post up lots of pictures of everything.

Before you dismantle it for photos, make sure you time the crank to TDC!

Antrieb

11-01-2006, 12:14 PM

Ferret, do you have AIM?

Antrieb

11-01-2006, 12:59 PM

I just took the passenger side VC off and rotated the engine to where TDC should be.

http://zwilliams.smugmug.com/photos/107195134-L.jpg

http://zwilliams.smugmug.com/photos/107194329-L.jpg

http://zwilliams.smugmug.com/photos/107195059-L.jpg

How does this look?

patznu

11-01-2006, 01:22 PM

jpeg
Before you dismantle it for photos, make sure you time the crank to TDC!
Hey Mr FERR....what would possibly cause cluster to no longer function as before or prev to engine being replaced? In short I bought my 525i from two farts who had no idea...they replaced the one of the heads, not sure , but my mechanic recognized that the timing was never synced after the head was replaced...They were then under the impressions(two farts) that the car would then never run right as it sounded(like nails pouring down some steps). My mechanic went to say "buy it!!"....for $300.....they sold it as is, my mechanic dropped a new engine ....she has been stroking since, except I may run out of gas. Before the engine was replaced this cluster worked fine now ... i can't figure it out. It also works on warm days and/or after she hit 60,000 or greater on rpm?? jpeg

Antrieb

11-01-2006, 01:24 PM

Hey Mr FERR....what would possibly cause cluster to no longer function as before or prev to engine being replaced? In short I bought my 525i from two farts who had no idea...they replaced the one of the heads, not sure , but my mechanic recognized that the timing was never synced after the head was replaced...They were then under the impressions(two farts) that the car would then never run right as it sounded(like nails pouring down some steps). My mechanic went to say "buy it!!"....for $300.....they sold it as is, my mechanic dropped a new engine ....she has been stroking since, except I may run out of gas. Before the engine was replaced this cluster worked fine now ... i can't figure it out. It also works on warm days and/or after she hit 60,000 or greater on rpm?? jpeg
Bro, make your own thread!

Ferret

11-01-2006, 02:09 PM

I just took the passenger side VC off and rotated the engine to where TDC should be.

How does this look?

That cam set is in time - or at least is in the right orientation - see the front two lobes? when their tips are pointed inwards and upwards like that, the cams are at tdc. I dont see the cam position sensor on that - is it on the other head?

EDIT: *quickly changes words before anyone notices* CAMS NOT CRANK *headdesk*
damn slydexia!

Ferret

11-01-2006, 02:17 PM

Also, is that an approximation of TDC - or was it dead on TDC? becuase the two cams dont quite look in sync?

Antrieb

11-01-2006, 02:22 PM

Well its pretty darn close to crank TCD. I crawled under the car to put the flywheel lock pin in there but couldn't find the flywheel hole. It's kind of hard to do it with one person.

The arrow on the camshaft gear is pointing 45 degrees away from the direction of the head in the up and out position.
http://zwilliams.smugmug.com/photos/107195059-L.jpg

Ferret

11-01-2006, 02:28 PM

Btw, I've got msn if you want to chatter about it - and am currently idling in the IRC channel.

Yeah, that heads pretty much in time, I'm just wondering about the crank position sensor and it's plate now... if the other head is a mirror image, then your timing will be close enough to at least to make the car splutter angrily and backfire rather than just not working at all.

The only thing left really to be suspect is the sensor itself and the timing plate to go with it.

patznu

11-01-2006, 03:15 PM

Bro, make your own thread!
"make you own thread"....you sound like some what immature...????:(
BUT YOU DID'T SAY PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE...I May Think about it.

brosher

11-01-2006, 03:32 PM

"make you own thread"....you sound like some what immature...????:(
BUT YOU DID'T SAY PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE...I May Think about it.

It's not polite to hijack someones thread. He should have told you to SEARCH and then MAKE YOUR OWN THREAD!

I found this thread, problem sounds the same and it was EWS. Your car has EWS I, not EWS II which started in 1/95.
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=188542&referrerid=&highlight=cranks+swap+start

Also some info here on EWS:
http://www.bimmer.info/forum/showthread.php?t=16139&highlight=ews

Hope this helps some, did you try swapping the loose connector I saw with the one connected?

Antrieb

11-01-2006, 03:32 PM

"make you own thread"....you sound like some what immature...????:(
BUT YOU DID'T SAY PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE...I May Think about it.
You must be new to internet forums. Hijacking a members thread is a no no. If you have a question, make your own thread. Its not that hard, just make sure you search first. Good luck n00b!

632 Regal

11-01-2006, 07:19 PM

i was away and thinking about this and it dawned on me...fuel wash? Fuel, spark whats missing? Compression. Fuel wash will unseal the rings from the cylinders and give you too low of compression to start it!

If everything seems dead on I would suggest a squirt or two of trans fluid down each cylinder, turn it over a couple times then re assemble the plugs and coils and see if she fires.

Sorry this completely slipped my mind.

Dave M

11-01-2006, 08:30 PM

I'm still waiting for the cam position sensor 'ring', 'tag', 'ID thingy', whatcha ma kallit to surface. Anyone seen it yet???

Dave M

Dave M

11-01-2006, 08:55 PM

OK, whos wit me on dis one? I had to answer my own question about the cam sensor thingy, so I went to Bentleys and discovered that on the M60 the 'sender' is integrated into the intake cam sprocket on the pass. side head.

As someone earlier said, it looks as though the cam lobes 'aren't quite right' and I agree. Look at bentley's arrow on the cam sprocket, then look at the photo. It appears there may be room to turn the intake cam and sprocket further inward. Maybe just my eyes, but.....might this change the ignition timing enough to get her going?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/dave_macisaac/M60_CamSensor.jpg

http://zwilliams.smugmug.com/photos/107195059-L.jpg

Dave M

Antrieb

11-01-2006, 11:36 PM

Unfortunately, we already tried that :(

Antrieb

11-01-2006, 11:36 PM

It's funny because we used the BMW special tool to set it to where it should be, but I agree with you, it looks like it should be turned inward more.

Antrieb

11-02-2006, 12:42 AM

I'm going to bite the bullet and buy this http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BMW-M60-M62-Camshaft-Valve-CamTiming-Engine-Tools_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ35625QQihZ002QQit emZ120047252145

I'm not screwing the timing up again.

Ferret

11-02-2006, 07:45 AM

I was just going to ask - are the square blocks at the back of the cams /exactly/ parallel when the engine crank is at tdc?

Antrieb

11-02-2006, 09:40 AM

I was just going to ask - are the square blocks at the back of the cams /exactly/ parallel when the engine crank is at tdc?
Supposedely they were. My friend from Motorsport Recycling LLC. in Rahway NJ came up to help a few weeks ago and brought one of these tools with him. We tried to do one side at a time but we must have slipped up or somthing when we took it off the one side and put it on the other.

Ferret

11-02-2006, 10:10 AM

Supposedely they were. My friend from Motorsport Recycling LLC. in Rahway NJ came up to help a few weeks ago and brought one of these tools with him. We tried to do one side at a time but we must have slipped up or somthing when we took it off the one side and put it on the other.

Does it not fire or stutter at all when cranking on the starter?

I'd have thought that if there was a head/cylender fault it'd still be trying to fire on at least four cylenders out of eight.

Hmm, this is crackers.

Edit : Even if one side is out of time, the other should still try and fire... so long as it's not the sensor side that's out of time.

Ferret

11-02-2006, 10:15 AM

Hmmm, do me a favour and while cranking the engine test some voltages for me?

While cranking:
Test the voltage output at the cigarette lighter socket.
Test the voltage between the engine block metal and the negative battery terminal.
Test the resistance across all temperature sensors.
Check every fuse in the fuse box, if it's got an alarm/immobiliser they tend to take power from very strange positions... like the interior lights.
You may have fuel flowing, but do you have the right pressure - I cant remember whether you've said about this before?

Wish someone would invent the teleporter quicker, get's irritating trying to help people on the other side of the atlantic when you cant get there lol.

Antrieb

11-02-2006, 10:47 AM

Antrieb

11-02-2006, 10:47 AM

It does stutter every once in a while while cranking, and when we shoot starting fluid into the intake, it backfires.

Ferret

11-02-2006, 11:57 AM

It does stutter every once in a while while cranking, and when we shoot starting fluid into the intake, it backfires.

ahhh-ha! backfiring up the intake or exhaust?

Dave M

11-02-2006, 12:02 PM

Does it not fire or stutter at all when cranking on the starter?

I'd have thought that if there was a head/cylender fault it'd still be trying to fire on at least four cylenders out of eight.

Hmm, this is crackers.

Edit : Even if one side is out of time, the other should still try and fire... so long as it's not the sensor side that's out of time.

It appears to be the sensor side that is out, hence both the valve AND ignition timing are out. Interested to see what happens once the cam alignment is double checked with a good tool.

Dave M

Ferret

11-02-2006, 12:02 PM

Whip out your injectors out of the manifolds if you can and crank the engine - they should be literally flooding the place with fuel. If they're not you've not got enough pressure to start - if it does rumble every now and again while cranking that sounds exactly like my 525 the first time I put it back together with a single tooth out.

Dave M

11-02-2006, 12:05 PM

It does stutter every once in a while while cranking, and when we shoot starting fluid into the intake, it backfires.

When my cam sensor ID ring was buggered, it would 'feel' as though it was going to fire, but really, it had no chance.

If you're firing starter fluid into it, you're over-riding the fuel ijection timing and probably getting lucky withthe odd spark. Not sure if you can cause damage doing such a thing, I guess it depends on how far out your timing is and how tight the tolerance is on the M60.

Dave M

11-02-2006, 12:08 PM

ILoveMPower

11-02-2006, 12:14 PM

Did you reset the OBC code? Unhook the battery for like 20-30 mins, then try starting.

Ferret

11-02-2006, 12:14 PM

You should probably be smelling fuel if your fuel pressure is OK and your ignition/valve timing is off.

He's said that the bores and plugs have fuel all over them :) it'd do that I expect when the injectors are firing onto closed valves.

My 525 did /eventually/ start after a lot of coaxing - sounded like a jackhammer in use.