the defintive coolant info thread

[winfred]

it's been a while since someone asked blah blah blah coolant, here ya go read up and make up your own decision, my stance has always been go conventional green and change it every two years, i stick by that it works, this is from the nov 06 issue of master technician
http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/11/26/427251/coolant1.jpg

http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/11/26/427251/coolant2.jpg

http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/11/26/427251/coolant3.jpg

http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/11/26/427251/coolant4.jpg

let the blah blah blahing begin

[Blitzkrieg Bob]

I'll spend $12.00 at BMW just to avoid thinking about this.

[winfred]

i've always kinda had a feeling that the bmw blue had at least a small reaction with plastic, and unless i am reading it wrong it has a small quantity of the plasticizer that helps dexcool be the rotten **** that it is

[632 Regal]

"Eastern Wiisdom"

says enough for me :D

[genphreak]

it's been a while since someone asked blah blah blah coolant, here ya go read up and make up your own decision, my stance has always been go conventional green and change it every two years, i stick by that it works, this is from the nov 06 issue of master technician... let the blah blah blahing begin Great read... it was interesting to note the corrosion issues with OAT and (though less so) HOAT based coolants.

This stuff is always fairly general and thin on detail- I doubt that BMW engineers would be too impressed if you put MB coolant in a Bimmer in front of them; this article seems to suggest all the Zerex and Glysantin coolants belong in one pile aka 'near enough is good enough' Whilst this may be true, I would have thought coolant specification its almost a no brainer for any of the chemical engineers that work for these manufacturers, and that real world experience could be expected to follow their calculated predictions. Of course it can be expected that those in the field will discover peculiarities, but without accurate statistics it is hard to know otherwise- after are so many variables- hard/soft water, ambient environment (ie operating temperature ranges) different cooling system components, different manufacturing dates let alone different models etc. Anyway there's my 2c of blah. May seem like good value for 2 cents, but very little new has been said :(

[genphreak]

i've always kinda had a feeling that the bmw blue had at least a small reaction with plastic, and unless i am reading it wrong it has a small quantity of the plasticizer that helps dexcool be the rotten **** that it isOne too many broken water necks perhaps? Something has to turn those coolant bottles yellow- after all, the coolant is blue!

But heck, we're talking about hot acids going through iron blocks here... :) Nick

ps However, remember all these cars have plastic radiators and they (at least some) do last a very, very long time...

[SnakeyesTx]

From what I've been told, from the dealer shop foreman no less, as long as its non-phosphate, and non-sulphate, its a non-problem :D Naturally, change interval is the key.

[winfred]

well they all break at some point, i am talking about the hard core blue using cars where everything is stained blue, when one of those breaks you can look at the cross section and see the invasion of the blue die deep into the plastic, and they seem more brittle once you start playing with the pieces


One too many broken water necks perhaps? Something has to turn those coolant bottles yellow- after all, the coolant is blue!.

[Fetch]

Liked the article



I'll spend $12.00 at BMW just to avoid thinking about this.

I completely agree, not to say I don't care about the subject, the cost per year is just so minimal it's a non-issue, easy choice to use BMW Blue for me.

[Bellicose Right Winger]

That's a great article. Finally an explanation for the no phosphate requirement.... some sort of problem with phosphates and hard water. I guess it explains why I've had no problem after 25 years with Prestone GREEN, I only use distilled water.

Paul Shovestul

[genphreak]

That's a great article. Finally an explanation for the no phosphate requirement.... some sort of problem with phosphates and hard water. I guess it explains why I've had no problem after 25 years with Prestone GREEN, I only use distilled water. Paul ShovestulThis is a very good point I forgot to mention... however Prestone Green is not like many other 'green' coolants, I believe its chemistry is somewhat better than most of the crap products we get on the Australian market... Thanks Paul :) Nick

[rob101]

This is a very good point I forgot to mention... however Prestone Green is not like many other 'green' coolants, I believe its chemistry is somewhat better than most of the crap products we get on the Australian market... Thanks Paul :) Nick
I saw prestone in the supercheap, I thought maybe they'd start stocking good products, then i looked at their oils and laughed that was not the case.

[rob101]

lookie what i found BASF tech data for g48
http://www.univar.co.uk/downloads/Glysantin_G48_TDS1.pdf
finally some data.

[genphreak]

lookie what i found BASF tech data for g48
http://www.univar.co.uk/downloads/Glysantin_G48_TDS1.pdf
finally some data.Heh, nice one Rob!

Dd you know that also at the same site there is;
http://www.univar.co.uk/downloads/Glysantin_G05_TDS1.pdf

and
http://www.univar.co.uk/downloads/Glysantin_G30_TDS1.pdf

Anyway, for an easier comparison, below are the differences between G05 (Yellow) and G48 (Cool Blue/ BMW spec coolant)- except for the corrosion tests (you can look in the pdfs for those).

Glysantin G 48 is an engine coolant concentrate based on ethylene
glycol. It contains a hybrid corrosion inhibitor package with salts of
organic acids and silicates. Glysantin G 48 is free of nitrites, amines
and phosphates.

Glysantin G 48 was developed to protect car, truck and bus engines
of both ferrous and aluminium construction against corrosion and
frost damage. It contains a blend of inhibitors designed to give a high
degree of corrosion protection to engine components such as radiators,
cylinder blocks/heads and water pumps.

Glysantin G 48 meets the requirements of both the ASTM D 3306 and
BS 6580:1992 - standards. Glysantin G 48 also got the following

OEM approvals:
· BMW BMW N 600 69.0
· German Army TL 6850-0038/1
· KHD H-LV 0161 0188
· MAN MAN 324-NF
· Mercedes-Benz DBL 7700.20, page 325.0
· MTU MTL 5048
· Opel/General Motors B 040 0240
· Saab 6901599
· VW/Audi/Seat/Skoda TL 774-C

Glysantin G 48 should possibly not be mixed with silicate free, OAT
engine coolants.

Technical data
Density at 20 °C 1.121 - 1.123 g/cm³ DIN 51 757/4
Refractive index at 20 °C 1.432 - 1.434 DIN 51 423/2
Boiling point ³ 165 °C ASTM D 1120
Flash point > 120 °C DIN ISO 2592
pH value 7.1 – 7.3 ASTM D 1287
Reserve alkalinity, M/10 HCl 13 - 15 ml ASTM D 1287
Ash content max. 1.5 % ASTM D 1119
Water content max. 3.5 % DIN 51 777/1
Solubility Miscibility with water freely miscible
Hard water stability stable, no precipitation
Technical data of Freezing point ASTM D 1177
Glysantin G 48 – 50 % vol. in water below - 38 °C
Water mixtures 33 % vol. in water below - 18 °C
Pour point DIN 51 583
50 % vol. in water below - 45 °C
33 % vol. in water below - 23 °C
Viscosity, mm2/s DIN 51 562
At 0 °C, 50 % vol. in water 7.0 – 10.0
33 % vol. in water 3.0 – 5.0
At 80 °C, 50 % vol. in water 0.9 – 1.1
33 % vol. in water 0.5 – 0.8


Glysantin G05 is an engine coolant concentrate based on ethylene
glycol. It contains a hybrid corrosion inhibitor package with nitrites,
salts of organic acids and silicates. Glysantin G 05 is free of amines
and phosphates.

Glysantin G 05 was developed to protect car, truck and bus engines
of both ferrous and aluminium construction against corrosion and
frost damage. It contains a blend of inhibitors designed to give a high
degree of corrosion protection to engine components such as radiators,
cylinder blocks/heads and water pumps. Due to its nitrite content
this product is especially recommended for the use in heavy duty
engines.

Glysantin G 05 meets the requirements of both the ASTM D 3306 and
BS 6580:1992 - standards.

OEM approvals:
· Mercedes-Benz DBL 7700.20, page 325.0
· John Deere JDM H 24
· MTU MTL 5048
· Leyland BLS.22.AF.01
· Ford North America WSS-M97B51-A1
· Chrysler MS - 9769

Glysantin G 05 should possibly not be mixed with silicate free, OAT
engine coolants.

Technical data
Density at 20 °C 1.131 - 1.133 g/cm³ DIN 51 757/4
Refractive index at 20 °C 1.435 - 1.438 DIN 51 423/2
Boiling point > 160 °C ASTM D 1120
Flash point > 120 °C DIN ISO 2592
pH-value 6.0 – 7.0 ASTM D 1287
Reserve alkalinity, M/10 HCl 15 - 19 ml ASTM D 1287
Ash content max. 2.0 % ASTM D 1119
Water content max. 3.0% DIN 51 777/1
Solubility Miscibility with water freely miscible
Hard water stability stable, no precipitation
Technical data of Freezing point ASTM D 1177
Glysantin G 05 – 50 % vol. in water below - 37 °C
Water mixtures
pH-value ASTM D 1287
33.3 % vol. in water 7.5 – 8.5

So the challenge for the chemical engineers is-
Where there are differences- are they important? ie Ph and ash content... And therefore.... can we use Zerex / BASF G05 or must we heed Bavaria's advice and specify G48 only? :) Nick

[rob101]

hey i am no chemical engineer, but i'd say also the corrosion tests are important

FOR G48

Glassware Corrosion Test ASTM D 1384
average
Metals and alloys weight loss spec. limit
(mg/coupon) (mg/coupon)
Copper 0.1 10
Solder 0.3 30
Brass 0.2 10
Steel - 0.2 *) 10
Cast iron - 1.0 *) 10
Aluminium - 1.1 *) 30
Heat Transfer Corrosion Test ASTM D 4340-89
typical
weight loss spec. limit
(mg/cm²/week) (mg/cm²/week)
Aluminium - 0.07 *) 1.0
Simulated Service Test ASTM D 2570
typical
Metals and alloys weight loss spec. limit
(mg/coupon) (mg/coupon)
Copper 8.8 20
Solder 0.0 60
Brass 10.7 20
Steel 0.1 20
Cast iron - 1.1 *) 20
Aluminium - 1.2 *) 60
*) remark: negative values mean increase of weight.
Aluminium Water Pump Test ASTM D 2809
Test Period test result spec. limit
ASTM D 3306
100 hours 9 8
ASTM cavitation corrosion rating:
10 - perfect 1 - perforated its quite interesting comparing these with some domestic coolants like nulon,

Glassware Corrosion Test (ASTM D 1384)
Metal *AS/NZS
2108.1:1997 *ASTM
D 3306 Result for
Nulon LL
Copper 1
Solder 1
Brass 0
Steel 1
Cast iron 2
Aluminium 1
* wt. loss mg (max)


especially i noticed was the improved performance in the glassware corrosion test, although i am not so surethat the nulon specs haven't been rounded up/down. Certainly the reserve alkanilities are similar for both (17 for nulon vs. 13-15mL BASF) , but the results for Nulon suggest that the G48 is 10 times better at protecting from corrosion in some cases and 100x better than the standards AS/NZS 2108.1:1997 which if you want i can obtain ;)

PS agh the formatting of this is terrible see the G48 link earlier and compare with http://www.nulon.com.au/products.php?productId=ll

[genphreak]

Yes it looks like the AS is pretty agricultural in comparison to BASF's figures. It'd be interesting if you can post the standard. I do not remember properly but I thought I'd researched it online last time- and found it to be somewhat flimsy on detail... referring of to BS or EU standards most of the time... :p

[rob101]

Yes it looks like the AS is pretty agricultural in comparison to BASF's figures. It'd be interesting if you can post the standard. I do not remember properly but I thought I'd researched it online last time- and found it to be somewhat flimsy on detail... referring of to BS or EU standards most of the time... :p
yes i should be able to i've just requested the standard, our standard bearer usually takes about 2 hrs to send it to me. I honestly think the most meaningful tests are the corrosion ones. The others are, as you said, a bit flimsy.

[genphreak]

1 SCOPE

This Standard lists the specifications for formulated glycol coolant solutions and for corrosion inhibitors.

This Standard applies both to concentrates which require dilution before use, and to prediluted solutions which are formulated for direct use in passenger car and light commercial engine cooling systems. Provision is also made for informative labelling of containers.

NOTE: This Standard does not cover coolants for use in heavy duty cycle engine cooling systems.

2 APPLICATION
The Standard has application both to the primary fill and also to after care/service coolants.

3 REFERENCED DOCUMENTS
The latest issue of publication shall apply. The following documents are referred to in this Standard:

ASTM
D92 Standard test method for flash and fire points by Cleveland open cup tester
D380 Standard test methods for rubber hose
D412 Standard test methods for vulcanized rubber and thermoplastic elastomers- Tension
D471 Standard test method for rubber property—Effect of liquids
D1119 Standard test method for percent ash content of engine coolants and antirusts
D1121 Standard test method for reserve alkalinity of engine coolants and antirusts
D1122 Standard test method for density or relative density of engine coolant
concentrates and engine coolants by the hydrometer
D1177 Standard test method for freezing point of aqueous engine coolants
D1287 Standard test method for pH of engine coolants and antirusts
D1384 Standard test method for corrosion test for engine coolants in glassware
D1881 Standard test method for foaming tendencies of engine coolants in glassware
D2240 Standard test method for rubber property—Durometer hardness
D2570 Standard test method for simulated service corrosion testing of engine coolants
D2809 Standard test method for cavitation corrosion and erosion-corrosion
characteristics of aluminium pumps with engine coolants
D3183 Standard test practice for rubber—Preparation of pieces for test purposes from products
D3634 Standard test method for trace chloride ion in engine coolants
D4340 Standard test method for corrosion of cast aluminium alloys in engine coolants under heat-rejecting conditions

The rest of the document is being held for ransom by some pocket-pilfering company so that the knowledge cannot be used by very many people. I sure look forward to any pearls of wisdom you cna pull from it mate... but maybe some of those documents might help also.

[rob101]

yes i have AS2108.1:1997 in my hot little hands now, might post up a scan of one of the tables. all the rest is just things like labelling etc. not really that interesting.

Its funny how australian standards are so good at getting your hopes up. I was looking for some requirements for cranes near airfields (for there is a 2.5 billion dollar project starting under the flight path into coolangatta airport) and the crane standard referred to another standard about high visibility colours for the booms. Unfortunately it was not the answer that i was looking for, it fact it was clear as mud and not really perscriptive at all. thanks for nothing, standard people.