Japanese vs. German engineering

[Robert K]

Well, the last 24 hours have been tough in regards to auto repairs. I started at about 10:30 last night replacing the valve cover gaskets on my wife's '97 V-6 Camry. Yep, that's right, a front wheel drive vehicle with a V-6. We've had the car for about 6 years and have loved it. But working on that V-6 is something I dread. I had to pull the upper intake and throttle body to access the back valve cover. Then, I had to fight a wiring harness that was secured to the back valve cover before even thinking about taking it off. In the end, I probably had about 6-7 hours into the job. The verdict is stil out as to whether this is going to cure the oil leak we've had. Anyway, there just didn't seem to be anything that was easy to access on that engine. Drove me nuts.

After finishing it, I decided since I was filthy anyway, I might as well put the new transmission mounts in my 1991 535i. Put about 6 inches worth of wood or ramps under each tire to get the necessary clearance. I had to lower the exhaust system, but here's where German engineers outclass the Japanese engineers...THEY ACTUALLY FIGURE YOU WILL EVENTUALLY HAVE TO WORK ON THE CAR!!!. At the exhaust headers, the bolts holding the pipes are spring loaded. Not only that, but there's a flexible portion on one of the pipes. Why is it this way? Because you can lower the exhaust to work on the car without having to take it completely off. Ingenious! Once I had the exhaust down, I began work on the trans mounts. Quarters were a bit tight there and I thought it was going to be difficult to remove the nuts holding the mounts to the trans. But guess what, rather than having holes in the trans, they had slots. All I had to do was loosen the nuts a turn of two, and the old trans mounts slid out, proving once again that those brilliant German engineers think of everything. After working on both cars in the same day, I've decided that Japanese car engineers need to vacation in German car factories to learn how to design stuff properly.

P.S. I actually replaced the engine mounts and trans mounts. I did the engine mounts a couple of days ago and noticed a big improvement in vibration reduction. If your mounts are old or original, you might think about changing them.

Grace and peace,

Robert K
1991 535i

[Blitzkrieg Bob]

I had the same kind of experiances with my other cars....the guy who designed the car never expected it to be serviced, or ever considered the mechanic who had to work on it.

It seems that BMW expected the cars to be serviced and made production choices to enable straight forward work.

I love it...

[LunatiC]

The Japanese have an engineering division???

The Camry is the biggest selling car here in Australia, so everyone pretty much knows what they're getting -- and if anything goes wrong, hey they'll just pass it over to their friendly Toyota dealer and get them to sort it out.

What's rather interesting is that Toyota (at least here in Australia) are putting a cap on their service -- $150-odd is the maximum you'll pay. I guess it wouldn't cover things like replacing valve cover gaskets.

My sister owns a 1993 Ford Telstar (a rebadged Mazda 626) and it's the same deal -- okay it's not a V6, just a straight-4, but opening the bonnet and having a look is a nightmare. Don't drop a bolt anywhere in there, you will never see it again.

[hk20000]

It's funny how you guys say that.

Go and replace oil on a Porsche.

then go and replace oil on a Honda S2000.

[E34 530]

Yeah, but the Camry will only break once in those 7 years while the BMW will break twice in the same weak, that's why everything is so easy to get to. :p

[hk20000]

the FF V6 layout is not a good idea to start with, though. But what can they do if those layouts tend to sell like hotcakes. Especially when they are also cheaper than V6 FR to build.

The biggest problem with that V6 is that the engine is rotated so that one bank is facing you - that's easy - and another bank is facing the firewall.

my friend's 1994 Lexus ES300 had the same problem - leak at the inner bank valve cover - and lexus' advice is "don't touch it, it's not like the car will stop running with a small leak like that anyway" - and fixing it costs 500 dollars or so.

[bigtisas]

My 93 Toyota MR2 is still using the original thermostat, radiator, AC, starter, spark plug wires...in fact EVERYTHING is original except tires, clutch, filters and the 5-year old spark plugs. It starts right up every morning. Never overheat or breakdown once.

Yes, servicibility e34 is better. But for reliability, MR2 wins. That said, I don't not want to own a Toyota Camry. It's just a boring car.

[repenttokyo]

keep in mind you are comparing how easy it is to work on a longitudally mounted engine versus a transverse engine....apples and oranges.

[Guapo]

valve covers? pfft ...

http://www.guapozx.com/guapozxbackup/TT-Swap/P2040008.jpg

[markus]

meh, work on chryslers and fords. the E34 is a dream to work on. even with the V8.

[kyleN20]

they both have great engineering, to say japan doesent know how to engineer a car is stupid, honda civic is one of the easiest cars to work on ever (90-98ish) they are like legos, small fun and easy to take apart and put back together. it also why the civic is probally the most common car with a engine swap (im assuming). i sold my e34 and will be going to look at a civic hatch tommrow, ill drive it for a while and enjoy the 40mpg, and when i find some time ill swap in a b18c1 and have a fun little 175hp gocart all for under 4k

[BillionPa]

doesnt the mitsu 3000GT VR-4 require removal of the engine to replace the spark plugs or something?

[E34 530]

My 93 Toyota MR2 is still using the original thermostat, radiator, AC, starter, spark plug wires...in fact EVERYTHING is original except tires, clutch, filters and the 5-year old spark plugs. It starts right up every morning. Never overheat or breakdown once.

Yes, servicibility e34 is better. But for reliability, MR2 wins. That said, I don't not want to own a Toyota Camry. It's just a boring car.

Don't jinx yourself, my roomate has an MR2 and blew the belts and waterpump a few weeks ago. He has to pull the engine out to gain access and change them lol.

[repenttokyo]

doesnt the mitsu 3000GT VR-4 require removal of the engine to replace the spark plugs or something?


it's crazy - have you ever been under the hood of one of those ? no room AT ALL.

[repenttokyo]

meh, work on chryslers and fords. the E34 is a dream to work on. even with the V8.


my v8 and v6 fords have always been really easy to work on, no issues at all. even engine swaps go smoothly...

[markus]

im talking about modern day ones. tauruses and the escape and the wonderful freestar. nothing like having oil filters burried between hot exhaust manifolds and above starters.

[bigtisas]

When I look at my girlfriend's 06 325ia, it doesn't look like easy to work on.

[John B.]

im talking about modern day ones. tauruses and the escape and the wonderful freestar. nothing like having oil filters burried between hot exhaust manifolds and above starters.


Reminds me of the Honda Civic we used to own. The filter was on the back of the motor & could only be accessed from underneath. As soon as you broke it loose oil ran down all over the exhaust. My experience with Japanese cars is that most everything will last for 100k but after that watch out.

Whats the deal with Honda & lousy suspension? I recently rode in a late model CRV & the damn shocks still clunk over every bump just like our 1990 Civic did. Can't they buy a decent shock??

Having just finished doing extensive rust repair to my daughter's mid 90s Sentra I'd also have to mention their crap construction & extremely poor quality steel. These cars rot out in areas where no car should rot due to overlapping layers of uncoated crap steel. Reminded me of the mid 70s Alfa Alfettas which started rusting out on the boat over from Italy.

[shelbyz4u2nv]

haha...anyone do a water pump/timing belt on a late model 300zx twin turbo...lol

[repenttokyo]

im talking about modern day ones. tauruses and the escape and the wonderful freestar. nothing like having oil filters burried between hot exhaust manifolds and above starters.


me too! at least, mid to late 90's is where I have experience. Although I have to agree with you on the 97 + trucks - pain in the ass!!

[Mr._Graybeard]

Having just finished doing extensive rust repair to my daughter's mid 90s Sentra I'd also have to mention their crap construction & extremely poor quality steel. These cars rot out in areas where no car should rot due to overlapping layers of uncoated crap steel. Reminded me of the mid 70s Alfa Alfettas which started rusting out on the boat over from Italy.

Rust is indeed the Japanese car killer. My wife drove a '95 Mazda Millenia for 8 years and by the third (the car was 5 years old at this point) the dogleg in front of the left rear wheel was showing significant rust damage. The same spot had a gaping hole by the time we got rid of it at 215K miles.

The scariest part was on the right front wheel well, where the front motor mount was bolted. It had all sorts of stress cracking and corrosion under it. I got in the habit of slathering it with POR 15 every time I changed the timing belt.

Too bad -- the car was a joy to own otherwise, although a little underpowered. Ride and handling were outstanding.

[Guapo]

haha...anyone do a water pump/timing belt on a late model 300zx twin turbo...lol

Yep, do them quite often actually. Got it down to a 5 hr job with some experience.

[Ross]

My experience is that what you are accustomed to is easiest. There is a different design strategy between German, Japanese and domestics that takes familiarization. I find working on Japanese cars frustrating but have put it down to my inexperience with them.
I have noticed however that fasteners seem to break with alarming regularity on Japanese cars I've serviced.

[indymdm]

im talking about modern day ones. tauruses and the escape and the wonderful freestar. nothing like having oil filters burried between hot exhaust manifolds and above starters.
M20 bmw engines have you burn your hand as well

[EricV]

I'm an infrequent poster, and really appreciate this place a great deal. Overall I agree with the German cars being designed for better access/ease of maintenance. Like with any make, it just depends on what has to be done, what job is at hand.

That said, I have (in addition to my '93 525im @ 107K) a '93 Honda Civic that I have to say is incredible. At 165K it has required nothing- not even a new clutch. Sure, I did one timing belt, a muffler, some plugs quite a ways back, but all else (like cooling system, starter, alternator, exhaust, etc.) is all original. The car runs great, and I never have to think about it (whereas w/ the e34, I have to admit I keep an ear out as I use it.)

Sure, the Japanese cars don't have the panache but they're very reliable. I often remind people that Reliability and Durability are two different things. Durable (the e34) means the majors (like the block, drivetrain, etc.) should go the long haul, but it's going to need routine maintenance along the way, which means it may not necessarily be reliable. Reliable, to me, means infrequent repairs are necessary.

I like the e34, otherwise I would not have it. I am however, surprised at how frequent the niggling things are (idle issues, the front end shimmy, coolant issues, etc.)

Have a good day all-

Eric

[Lennyz525i]

Sure, the Japanese cars don't have the panache but they're very reliable. I often remind people that Reliability and Durability are two different things. Durable (the e34) means the majors (like the block, drivetrain, etc.) should go the long haul, but it's going to need routine maintenance along the way, which means it may not necessarily be reliable. Reliable, to me, means infrequent repairs are necessary.

I like the e34, otherwise I would not have it. I am however, surprised at how frequent the niggling things are (idle issues, the front end shimmy, coolant issues, etc.)

Have a good day all-

Eric

I agree with the reliability vs durability. In my current car I have a 2.3L duratec engine, I get scared just looking at that thing. Miss the good old simple M20...