Tempted by an ///M5

[Robin-535im]

A guy in town is selling a 1991 ///M5 for $15k. 77k miles, white on black, RD 5-spoke wheels and turbines as spares, very clean and otherwise 100% stock.

I'm trying to talk myself into or out of buying it...

Any daily ///M5 drivers want to comment on how much more expensive maintaining an M is than my old 91 535? Inquiring minds want to know.

Any thoughts appreciated, I'm really on the fence. Plus side is, well, it's an //M5. Down side is the nebulous fear of huge repair costs.

TIA,

Robin

[SIXPACKDREAMER]

My father in law has a 91 M5. About a year ago he had to replace his back
box exhaust it cost app. £900 Sterling.
He also had to replace the water pump about 2 weeks ago and cost roughly
£300.
So yes expensive repair costs. But it looks fantastic drives brilliantly,
and yes it's a M5.

[Robin-535im]

So yes expensive repair costs. But it looks fantastic drives brilliantly,
and yes it's a M5.

[G Feller]

If it's been kept up.

Although I would be sorely tempted myself, I will never forget the phrase "not for the faint of wallet" that many have used with regard to the M5. I'm not sure what degree of wrenching you do--if you do little or none and you have any doubts at all, I would stick with the good thing you already have.

Another bit of advice I've heard on M5s is to spend half of your budget on the car and keep the other half in reserve for the inevitable.

I am relatively certain that the E34 M5 is best suited as an occasional driver/garage queen, but everyone's pockets have a different depth...and, the number of M5s represented on this board is pretty decent to support you as necessary.

FWIW from a desk jockey with clean, soft hands.


A guy in town is selling a 1991 ///M5 for $15k. 77k miles, white on black, RD 5-spoke wheels and turbines as spares, very clean and otherwise 100% stock.

I'm trying to talk myself into or out of buying it...

Any daily ///M5 drivers want to comment on how much more expensive maintaining an M is than my old 91 535? Inquiring minds want to know.

Any thoughts appreciated, I'm really on the fence. Plus side is, well, it's an //M5. Down side is the nebulous fear of huge repair costs.

TIA,

Robin

[MarkD]

A guy in town is selling a 1991 ///M5 for $15k. 77k miles, white on black, RD 5-spoke wheels and turbines as spares, very clean and otherwise 100% stock.

I'm trying to talk myself into or out of buying it...

Any daily ///M5 drivers want to comment on how much more expensive maintaining an M is than my old 91 535? Inquiring minds want to know.

Any thoughts appreciated, I'm really on the fence. Plus side is, well, it's an //M5. Down side is the nebulous fear of huge repair costs.

TIA,

Robin

They can be very expensive if you require repairs to the motor. And even if you do all the work yourself, motor parts are expensive. I have heard that many people end up spending $10 - 15K US when they send it to a garage for the rebuild.
You will find a lot of useful info here:

http://www.bmwe34m5.com/faqs/

Mark

[Jr ///M5]

Robin, if you were planning on using it as a daily driver, that's your decision. Although they are capable and dependable, it wouldn't be my choice. Any car is a depreciating asset, although some will hold their value more than others, especially the M5.

Depending on condition and service records and previous ownership, this particular M5 could be looked at as more of an investment of the enjoyment kind.

If you do your own wrenching, that's one thing, and most parts are available through BMA of course. Be ready for quite an increase in your parts budget and your insurance budget. These cars are listed as a class 23 for insurance purposes. The 318iS is listed as a class 17, a run of the mill plain jane auto would be like class 10 or 12. I use a "garage policy" for mine which runs only $200 a year.....you can't beat that. The catch is calling your agent when you want to take it out. So I look at it like a phone call is saving 2-300 a year.

Parts will cost at least 30% over what you pay for the 535 for most things, items like the suspension (only applicable to the M5) will cost 3 times as much as the 535 would. The engine is very unique, and once sorted will last at least 200k before work needs to be done. But if it goes down, it usually goes way down....taking a good chunk of your wallet with it.

They are fun cars and worth every penny for the right one, check out the BMW E34 M5 FAQ for more of an education before you make an offer on it. Good luck with your negotiations....

Jr http://www.bmwe34m5.com/faqs/

[Robin-535im]

I was hoping you would chime in.

I'm going to stop in and look at it again today. I chatted with the local service manager at the dealer - good guy, real easy to talk to and freely shares his thoughts. He said they hardly ever saw E34 M5 engines in the shop, and those few that came in were either overheated and driven "the last few miles home" or were run low on oil. He was full of praise for the car (though it's not his wallet at stake!)

I calculated that if I were to take the difference an ///M5 would cost vs. 535 for insurance and payments and invest it in a mutual fund, I could retire 1 year earlier. Then again, I didn't factor in speeding tickets, SRS parts, valve shims, ...

I am thinking of it as a daily driver, but I plan to stash a few $k in savings to prepare for parts costs. I dunno - feels really tempting...

- Robin
91 535 im (salvage)
?91 ///M5?

[icm5er]

I am forunate enough to own both great cars, the 535im as a daily driver for 3 years, the ///M5 as a garage queen-weekend dirve in nice weather for 2 years.

If you are concerned about the operating costs, you should consider the purchase based on the condition of the car and its maintenance history, also a thorough pre-purchase inspection. $15k seems low for a E34 M5 with 77k miles. If I had to guess, it may be because it is behind on maintenance and needs work. I could be wrong though, but most people who own an M5 know the value and dont give them away so low priced.

I can tell you this, if you do buy it, it will not disappoint you, it will put a smile on your face even more so than the 535im, which is a great car. The M5 is so much more, every time I drive my car I start to think of how I might be able to purchase another for safe keeping.

A E34 ///M5 that has been well maintained can run strong with no worries of 15k engine replacement costs, at least that is what I read and am hoping for.

http://www.bimmer.info/bmw/ivanc/083103-M5-RRear%20Beach.jpg

[Robin-535im]

I am forunate enough to own both great cars, the 535im as a daily driver for 3 years, the ///M5 as a garage queen-weekend dirve in nice weather for 2 years.

A E34 ///M5 that has been well maintained can run strong with no worries of 15k engine replacement costs, at least that is what I read and am hoping for.



Well... I hope you're right too. I took another look at it. The guy bought it in Florida for ~17k a few years ago, with 75000 miles on it. The engine bay is spotless (could have been detailed of course) the valve stem/cam shaft area is clean, and no obvious signs of overheating. It doesn't leak anywhere either. Looks very sharp inside and out. Do I sound like a guy who's already sold or what? I'll probably take it to the dealer or a good indy for a pre-purchase inspection anyway, just to cover my buns.

Thanks for the input. Maybe I'll join you as an owner of both!

- Robin

[Dick Schneiders]

That is a crime - these cars should be driven more than that.


Well... I hope you're right too. I took another look at it. The guy bought it in Florida for ~17k a few years ago, with 75000 miles on it. The engine bay is spotless (could have been detailed of course) the valve stem/cam shaft area is clean, and no obvious signs of overheating. It doesn't leak anywhere either. Looks very sharp inside and out. Do I sound like a guy who's already sold or what? I'll probably take it to the dealer or a good indy for a pre-purchase inspection anyway, just to cover my buns.

Thanks for the input. Maybe I'll join you as an owner of both!

- Robin

[Jr ///M5]

Hmmm, Dick brings up an excellent point. The car hasn't been driven hardly any (even less than mine!) therefore, it wouldn't show any leaks. It might be just a month of driving before they would develop, driving the M cars is what they need to keep their seals lubed.

Go take another look at the car, try to investigate the service records and what they contain about the history of repairs. There are a few areas that are prone to trouble, usually by this time they have been sorted out, but if not, enter cautiously into this deal.

If you've never driven an M5, then here's what to expect.

The clutch is quite a bit stiffer than the 535 and shouldn't release at the top of the pedal travel.
The transmission is very notchy and doesn't glide into gears like the 535. Any clashing of the gears at all is a sign of trouble, but a solid notchy feeling of the shifter is normal.
At idle, the engine should tach about 950 rpms with a definite lopy idle, the gas pedal is extremely touchy and should respond with just the slightest input.
At idle in neutral, it is normal to hear the dual mass flywheel, this should be of no concern, but it will sound like something is wrong. The sound should disappear when the clutch is pressed to the floor.
It is normal for the SLR shock system to "weep", check the ends of the shocks for a drop of oil hanging, but there shouldn't be any wetness around the area indicating a serious leak.
The ride should be firm, the steering wheel will have about an inch of play that does absolutely nothing, it's not razor sharp at first, but there's a reason for it.
The brakes are much like the 535's, until you really get into them, just make sure the car behind you can stop too! The rotors are different than the 535 and thus the 30% more rule comes into play.
When driving the M for the first time, you might wonder what all the fuss is about, that is, until you learn how to enjoy it. If you test drive it, take it up to about 45 mph in second gear and make sure there isn't anyone in front of you, and punch it....Hold on, you better be able to shift quick, because the redline comes up instantly! The same thing happens after you shift to 3rd and the feeling of taking off in an airplane overcomes you. Stay alert, because by the time you are ready to shift out of 3rd you should be traveling around 100.......and the grins begin. Check the rear view mirror for exhaust smoke on take-off.
A famous oil leak is a pesky o-ring at the back of the head, it is most visible from under the car looking up at #6 exhaust header side. This area could be slightly moist, but should not be wet. It's the case where a 5 cent o-ring costs $400 in labor.
The replacement exhaust for the car is still one piece, from the cat back, it's also pretty pricey, coupled with shipping can reach close to a grand from BMA...
The gages are the lifeblood of the car, the water temperature gauge should read a needlewidth or two below the center mark. It should quickly come up to temperature from a cold start.
The oil gauge will come up rather slowly and should take at least a 10-15 mile drive before it is up to full 200 degree temperature. That's the time when redline can be obtained if needed.
Power from the engine really shines right above 3500 rpm, there is a certain frequency that is reached, and through german engineering, the air tubes that are attached to the throttle bodies act like individual pumps that help to pressurize the cylinder. Cool huh? That's when this car seems to come alive and become something else. Everything blends together at this point and transforms this sleeper of a car (especially with the turbine wheels) into something grins are made of....

I wouldn't want you to rush into anything, but if it passed your expectations, then get it down to the local indy or BMW mechanic that knows these cars and have the compression and leakdown tests done, along with the PP inspection.

There's a ton of stuff I've left out, but that's best left up to the experts to look at and report to you.

Good luck Robin, maybe you have found "Neo"...(the one)

Jr

[e34]

if u r having second thought look into a 95 M540iM 6 speed, its going to be cheaper than the M5 and the horse power is not that far away, I was looking at a 91 M5 or 95 M3 or 95 525iM or 95 540iM and looks like its between the M540iM or 95 M3. hey its a bmw and they are all good. Hope u find what u r looking for.

[Bimmer Nut Ed]

Jr, what a vivid description, I hesitate to say this, but I almost got an erection reading about your M5 experience! Man do you know your car. You must get one everytime you drive it. And I thought my 535 was cool. Although at high RPM it seems to have similar feelings. No matter what model E34, they are all cool. I wonder what Micah's ported intake will do for my car, with the RD headers already installed, to add towards that M5 feeling. I just want to go for a ride in your car Jr.. Got to see what it feels like! Don't worry, I'll keep to myself!


into something grins are made of....

Good luck Robin, maybe you have found "Neo"...(the one)

Jr

[Jr ///M5]

I've got a couple trips planned to Chicago this summer, I'm sure something could be arranged to satisify the ///M curiosity.

But I'm not going to be held responsible when Sharon finds out you got bitten by the ///M bug and it was all my fault...=)

Probably be up around the middle of June for sure if not sooner. I'll give Scott H. a call and let you guys know....

Jr

(But then there is always a reason for a bike ride downstate too!)

[Bimmer Nut Ed]

Cool JR, sounds like a plan. I'll also see if my cousin from Germany wants to take a road trip south. He's the one with the e30 M3, and 300 KPH driving a Honda Black Bird on the Autobahn! He likes speed!

Doh, so I don't know why he's coming state side!!!!!!!!!


I've got a couple trips planned to Chicago this summer, I'm sure something could be arranged to satisify the ///M curiosity.

But I'm not going to be held responsible when Sharon finds out you got bitten by the ///M bug and it was all my fault...=)

Probably be up around the middle of June for sure if not sooner. I'll give Scott H. a call and let you guys know....

Jr

(But then there is always a reason for a bike ride downstate too!)

[Paul in NZ]

I would talk to your bmw tech again and ask him about the pre purchase inspection that BMW offers.With JRs insight and some input from the m5 faq board i reckon you could check it out thoroughly...I am fairly sure too tha there are tests foe the age of coolant and brake fluids...if these are "old' it maybe a warning or an indication of some neglect.....After JRs description I dont know how it isnt in your garage already!!!!

[BigD]

If you go to germany, these cars do not have the same mystique that they do here. BMW did not build them to be showpieces but daily drivers.

I got a mouthfull and then some, of the ///M repair costs. My oil pump failed causing the timing chain to skip and bend all 24 valves, bust 2 pistons and due to a previous repair that was rather permanent, the crankshaft needed replacement too. If you know the right people, it's not as big a deal as people make it sound. Yeah, it will cost 15k US if you go to the dealer but I hope no one actually does that (I'd never trust the dealer to rebuild this engine). I don't know the final cost of this adventure yet but it looks like it will be well under 10k Canadian (hoping for about 6-7k). And other than the block,head,rods and cams, there's nothing original left. I'm replacing all 6 pistons with 95mm forged JE's and having the engine bored out (stock pistons are 93.4, 3.8L pistons are 94.5). Can't wait till it's all over! Should only be a few more weeks.

Anyway, I wouldn't trade it for the world. I also heard the same about the car not feeling all that special until the resonance flap opens up but believe me, it feels strong even at low rpm. The difference is that once you take it over 4k, it simply turns into a rocket ship.

I still have a 535 for a winter rust bucket and I had an E34 535 before this one. While I had it, I tried a lot of things to come close to turning it into an M5. Now that I have one, I have to tell you there is nothing you can do to make a 535 an M5 without getting an M5. I had the lowered suspension with sway bars etc. The cornering was about the same, but the difference is that the M5's suspension was designed as one complete unit. So when you drive the crap out of it, it's a sports car. But while you're driving on the street, it still feels like a luxury car (just slightly stiffer than others, which for me feels nicer). The engine, the steering, the seats, the tranny, everything. It's just an entirely different ballgame. The sound of the engine is mesmerizing.

A good way to tell how well the engine was maintained is to look at the cam tray. If it's all brown, then it was neglected. If it's nice and mostly silver, then the PO was diligent. Do a compression check. Your mechanic should know for sure but I think it should be around 205. If the self levelling suspension has been removed, then give the car a few hundred brownie points. Both the repair of the SLS and the retro replacement kit are expensive. If not, have someone who really knows it check it out. You can drive the car if it fails, but it will feel like a go cart for real (not the nice analogy everyone makes when installing sway bars, but the part where you need a mouthguard going downtown).

If the engine checks out, the exhaust is not rusted, the suspension does not clunk, the tranny or diff do not whine and the gears shift smoothly (but notchy as hell), go get it.

[Robin-535im]

Well I decided to let this one go. And before you go looking for it - the guy sold it to the person who looked at it after me. :)

Thank you all for the responses. I was as close as can be to getting it but in the end I decided I'd like something a bit more affordable that I wouldn't mind using as a daily driver.

Good thing I didn't read Jr's description until after I made up my mind - or else I certainly would have bought it!

So I'm back into looking for a 535im, or possibly a 540/6, but I really really like the big six and the 3000 - 6000 RPM range, especially with an EAT chip installed.

- Robin